CorranSec Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Lol! That'd be great. You could have Lucas as the Jedi (or Sith )Master, Rick McCallum as a Jedi Knight, lots of other cast and crew members, yellow stickmen, actor trailers (as turrets), and heaps of other stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 25, 2003 Author Share Posted January 25, 2003 I guess that could be the second secret civ! But hum...I hope they do those mini-vans better then the AoK Cobra Car.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Vostok-That's what I was trying to say, but, when you unlock them, they can only be used in the editor and in SP (but they aren't picked by "random"). No MP. Corran-The Hutt Cartel/smugglers would fit perfectly as a secret civ. Compared to the others (even the gungans and wookies) they are woefully underpowered and localized, but now they can be used in the campaigns (their original intent). Jawas ain't bad for the final secret civ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Sith: Why couldn't the secret civs be used for MP? Not against the computer, just playing against other players. It'd be fun to have an all-out Ewok war! The HC/SU would be terrible choices as secret civs. They aren't underpowered and are by no means localized, and their 'original intent' was to be a fully-fleshed and balanced civ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 You need to unlock the civ first before you can play with it. If a guy who has not finished the game go to an MP room and some guys who did finish the game, wants to play with Ewoks, then the guy who hasn't finished the game or the other guy might be kicked out or the guy who finished the game might be kicked out because you can't play with or aginst Ewoks until you have unlocked the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Well I think it would be nice to be able to use them in multiplayer, it would be a shame not to be able to say "I bet I can kick your ass using Ewoks", though I recognise the problems it presents. Following on from Luke's Dad's comments: The person who hasn't unlocked the Ewoks will still have all the data for the Ewoks on his computer, he just can't use it. What he's unlocking is not the civ as a whole, just the ability to select it as a playable civ. It's not like they need to be kept away from people who haven't unlocked them. So the still-locked-guy can't select to play Ewoks, though he can play against someone else who has unlocked Ewoks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 And that is why you are posting on a forum and not making a game (refering ot Vostok/Corran). If you played MP actively you would understand. The issue isn't whether people have unlocked them or not (personally i don't care), but balancing and game design issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 I don't see that as a problem, Sith. Secret civs are NOT balanced, they are most likely very underpowered. That's how they are supposed to be. If someone wants to use them in a MP game they will most likely lose, but at least they will have fun. Winning isn't everything, after all. As long as the secret civs are not selected through the "Random" option, I don't see a problem at all. With this approach, there are no balance or game design issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 28, 2003 Author Share Posted January 28, 2003 Nevertheless, the guy who thinks it's a super-strong secret civ is gonna be pissed. Maybe through direct play but not through the Zone or whatever they are gonna create for SWGB2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 You people are impossible. Believe me on this one, MP secret civs are a bad idea. I play MP actively, and its very hard to descibe something to you guys if you aren't on the same level of understanding (on the other hand, if you were on the same level, we wouldnt be arguing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 I dont think it would really matter. If some one wants to be a "Secret Civ" on MP, let them. they will most likely be the first to go and it's their loss. Also, you dont have to be a "Secret Civ" in MP if you dont want to. What fun would playing a "Secret Civ" in SP be against the comp? the comps are so stupid. they have an overwhelmingly enormus army but if you kill their workers they quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Sith, please enlighten us as to how a MP secret civ would be bad considering the following: The secret civ has to be conciously selected, it is never selected by choosing "Random". The secret civ is underpowered, in keeping with what the civ would actually be like in battle, and because of this intentional underpowering no balance is required. People would be aware of this underpowering, and understand that it would be very hard if not impossible to win with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 There is no point in making a purposefully under-powered civ for MP play. I know you guys will say its for a challenge, but its considerable more fun and challenging to just play better people. What more, you NEVER want to put an unbalanced civ inot the field. Even if you could guarentee that they were weak, there's always the chance, especially the way MP communities are today, that they couldb e explioted. There are too many different scenerios (1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, DM, Turbo, all tech) for a designer to be sure that their weak civ cna be explioted to win (either directly or indirectly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Sith: It's not about balance. It's about fun, stupidity and comedy. That's what the secret civs are there for. I don't want the secret civs in MP for a 'challenge,' though some people might use them that way. I wish them the best of luck. But I just want them in there for the fun value. Who wouldn't want to have an Ewoks vs LucasArts war with their friends? If the weak civs end up being exploited to win, it doesn't really matter (although we would try to avoid that). The secret civs would never count in tourneys and the like, and shouldn't count as a real win for the player. So it wouldn't have any effect at all on wins, apart from some whiny kids who'll end up saying "I beat you!" "No, it was the Ewoks!" "I still beat you!" They're just for fun. They don't need to be balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Why do you think the designers make patches? Because they want the SP players to have a better experience? Or did they forget to add something? No. Its because the relentless MP community finds an expliot or a certain over-powered strat or a certain imbalance among units that the devs didn't see when they shipped the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 They make patches to restore the balance. There always was an imbalance with the secret civs, and it's designed that way. Thus, you don't need any patches, and nobody really cares if you find an exploit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Exactly. Besides, you could always have a "no secret civs" checkbox when creating a multiplayer game that doesn't allow them in the game. They couldn't be exploited then, because proper games wouldn't allow them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 This was said over @ AoMH. I hope you all leanr well: The game is played to be WON. If you want a "for fun" game go play SimCity. In competetive play, people will and should use whatever is in the game to their advantage. In rated, deliberately being a weak civ, choosing weak Minor Gods, etc; does not show bravery or skill, it merely shows stupidity. Side Note: The author of this post is someone we know. If you cna figure it out (look at the tone), you'll get a cookie. The author had no idea that this argument was going on when they posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 That's rubbish. If that were true people would only ever play games on the easiest difficulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 At first glance, I'd say simwiz posted that. These are my reasons: 1. It sounds like him. He was always into the whole winning thing. 2. It's got capitals. He was always into the whole capitals thing. 3. It's wrong. He was always into the whole wrong thing. However, it also doesn't seem like him. It uses words like "merely" and "bravery." Back in the gunship debate, he just insulted Windu. Isn't the whole point of a game to be played for fun? Even tournaments are there for the fun of playing against people, and perhaps (if you're lucky) the fun of beating them. Perhaps the secret civs simply won't be in rated play. Perhaps they will, for people to see if they can master the deadly power of the Ewoks. Regardless, the Ewoks aren't made to be balanced. The civs in AoM are, and so it's a rather different situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted February 1, 2003 Author Share Posted February 1, 2003 Nevertheless, the quote is not wrong. Although many of us play for fun, the majority of the MP community is made of people playing to win. Believe what you want, they'll either never be played with or simply used by idiots like sith pointed out. Which is why I think a direct connect only thing might work since you're supposed to know the guy you're playing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 No it is wrong. Even if most MP players play to win, do they intentionally play newbies so they will definitely win? No, they often challenge themselves a bit so it is fun. Winning is part of that fun, but is in no way more important than having fun itself. Anyway I fully support the direct connect idea, but I still don't see why they can't be allowed on Internet play. They're going to exist in SP anyway, so what's the harm if they're never played on MP? And if for some bizarre reason there is a way they can be exploited to win with, you could have an option to not allow them, just as you have options to lock teams and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted February 1, 2003 Author Share Posted February 1, 2003 Boy you really never have played MP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You would be amazed when you see how many a-holes there are on the internet! They only want to win! WIN WIN WIN WIN WIN WIN! If you played more often on the Zone, you would understand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 The quote is wrong, because it suggests that the game is designed to be played to win. The whole concept of a 'game' is that it is to be played for fun. I can't do anything about the people who bash newbies just for the sake of getting a win, but I'm sure there will be people who would like to have Ewok wars and the like on the Zone. Okay, so I don't play all that often on the Zone. I do play a lot of direct connect with friends though, and we'd all love to play with Ewoks. And we should at least allow the use of Ewoks on whatever online service is used for GB2. What's the harm in that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 yes there are a heck of a lot of aholes on the Zone. . . besides the spammer, the ppl that use "zone hacks," evil +'s (j/k on that one), ect. When ever I play on a team RM, and we're winning. Most of the times, my team mate is an ahole and starts calling the people not winning "losers" and "pussies" and ect. I always tell my team mate to stop cuz it's not nice. Some do stop, but the ones that dont, I switch them to enemy and attack him. And then he makes up new swear words I've never heard of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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