ShadowTemplar Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 My intentions are not to argue with or sway others, but to articulate the basis of christianity (which seems to on trial here.) Nothing but nonsense is on trial here. If you feel that the Bible is on trial, then that must mean that... All responses stem from a biblical point of view so if you do not believe in the bible the responses only fuel your bitterness toward christianity. (again not my intention) I do not believe. Period. Not in the Bible, not in anything else. But I fail to see how a silly, old book can infuryate anyone... The actions taken in defence of said silly, old book, on the other hand... You have freewill and are free to roam to where and with whom you choose. Is that a promise? How many missionaries do I have to turn away before JC gets the point and directs them to somewhere else? Surely it must be my right as a consumer to turn away all peddlers of the same, faulty good in one move. I can't think of any other corperation that can get away with the kind of "active marketing" (otherwise known as SPAM) that most religions practise. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." -Hebrews 11:1 Remember what Jesus told Thomas... "Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29 So, you are blessed if you believe that communism is good, even though you have never seen it do a good thing (apart from the fact that there are no such things as "good" or "evil")? You are blessed for believing that Hitler was a compassionate man, even though you haven't ever seen him make a compassionate action? Clearly this "blessing" is that of blindness, useful only for oppression. I assume this was rhetorical? Rethorical question: Using a question mark in the place of an exclamation mark. No I wasn't rethorical. If you read "Tales of the Chtulu Mythos" you will see that views not unlike the ones that you advocate are forwarded by hallucinogens. Just asking. This was not Jesus sinning, however this is the point at which Jesus became our sin. Jesus could see His Father looking down on Him, but God cannot look upon sin ("Your eyes are too pure to look on evil -Habakkuk 1:13) so at that point God turned away. Whatever. I'll give you that. Still, I see this whole sacrifice business as just a show... Did you read the "nut shell" part? We could never begin to understand to Omnipotent God, so we never explain his methods. I only offer the christian reasoning behind what we have FAITH in. "Christian reasoning". "Compassionate Conservative". "Tolerant religion". "Honest politicians". See where I'm getting? These are big, fat oxymorons. And spare me the "we could never understand an omnipotent God" bullsnot. Get real. I am not why you repeated the statement, typo? No. Not typo. I just thought that it would need to be repeated in order to sink in. A terrorist is someone who takes the lives of innocent people for a cause or faith he believes in, Jesus gave his life for sinners who did not believe in Him.... could he be any more opposite? By today's standards, affiliating with known terrorists makes you a terrorist, right. If for no other reason, then for failing to deliver them to the proper authorities. JC had no less than THREE Zealots in his run-together: Judas "Longknife", Jacob "The Truthful", and Simon "The Zealot". The Zealots were a millitant sect, that employed terrorist and gurillia tactics in their fight against the Romans. If 25% of your closest friends were well known Al Qaida operatives, then I am pretty sure that you would be branded terrorist too. I will never fault a person for their religion, faith, view, or opinion. Some of these replies do just that, so what is the purpose in them? They are not actions of love, and shouldn't love be the root of any faith or belief? Hmmmm..... I do not know if you are speaking generally or about me in particular. But as for me: I don't believe that you can find any posts where I attacked you or anyone else. I have been sending some very serious flak in the general direction of your beliefs, but that is not the same thing. I'm attacking your beliefs, not your person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Originally posted by Jedi_Monk Despite what you might think, not all Christians are uneducated heathens. Christianity is still the single largest religion on earth; we are writers, scientists, doctors, teachers, lawyers and professors. Yet everything, and I do mean everything that all of these big people have accomplished that has any real value has been purely rational in nature. Their faith is more of a hinderence than a help to progress. What I see when I look around me is that the vast majority of the Christians that I see have little or no knowledge or skill scientific (just browse this forum for confirmation). They are, in general and with some exeptions, narrow minded and lack the ability to see their own irrellevance in the cosmic picture of things. "Nothing matters from far enough away." -Gutes, Private, Tanith First. This is a very important understanding. IMO it is rather childish to consider man to be the be-all and end-all of creation. Would the Zerg not be more fit to survive? Or the Tyranids? Or some of the numerous insect species on this planet. [QUOUE]Originally posted by Jedi_Monk ...They stare at me and gloat; they divide my garments among them; for my clothes they cast lots..." I'll leave the theological debate to you guys. But the part about dividing his garment is funny, because the cloth that covered his dead body has been claimed found at least three different times and places... And if you put together all the so-called "splinters from JC's cross" relics, you get about two whole crosses... So much for the credibility of the Church... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Originally posted by Psydan Well Belief is: v. tr. 1.To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories? 2.To credit with veracity: I believe you. 3.To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly. Keywords: Accept, credit, and expect or suppose. All are subjective. Useless crap. Cold, hard facts are not subjective. Usefull tools. See what I'm getting at? If you hold something to be applicable because that is what empirical evidence suggests, then you are beyond faith. That is sense (percieved by the senses). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted January 19, 2003 Author Share Posted January 19, 2003 Whoa! This thread really took off while I was away. Now that I've spent half and hour reading all those replies, I want to comment on a few things: 1) Christianity is a religion. Saying it isn't is like saying: "Tennis isn't a sport, it's a way of life . You can call it whatever you want, but tennis is still a sport. Someone's personal view does not change this, no matter how committed they are to tennis. 2) The thing about JC and sin --> I was referring to the things he said while being crusified. Some people think the whole "why have you forsaken me"-stuff was sinning. Personally I think these people should JC a break. He was crusified and dying FFS!! 3) Mandolorian wrote somewhere that he believes that newborns, is they die, will go to hell because they are tainted by the original sin. Picture this: A beautiful baby girl is born in a hospital. The next day a psycho escapes from the nearby mental institute, walks into the hospital and slits the throat of the baby. What does our beloved God do? --> he condemns the innocent baby to eternal pain and suffering in the flames of hell. ETERNAL PAIN AND SUFFERING because Adam bit the apple. That is your God? It sure as hell isn't mine! And another thing - women as priests. What is wrong with that? Aren't men and women equal? Are women really inferior in the eyes of God? Why is that?! 4) Great post meadfish. You made it all sound logical. But...you are basing the whole argument upon the fact that God lives by the principle of "If you do bad things, you must give me blood or burn in hell forever. Why does God want our blood? I don't get that. Perhaps it is true. Perhaps he also needs golden trinkets in order to "beam down" on earth. (There is a lot of literature [check the parapsychology-section at a library near you! ] on this subject that explain even the weirdest OT stuff.) And as an answer to Cjais question I'll say that: *Probably because I have NOT figured it all out yet. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted January 19, 2003 Author Share Posted January 19, 2003 A few more comments: I find it amazingly stupid that the arguments against science (and pro-Bible) are as follows: Religious person X: well, umm...like okay: explain to me how black holes function and how the whole universe was born in the first place! Scientist: Those are tough questions, I don't exactly - Religious person X: HA! GOTCHA! There we have it!! You CAN NOT EXPLAIN CAN YOU!!? HAHA! That proves God really exists and the communion wine turns into Jesus' blood! Scientist: Umm, I don't really see how you can assume anything of the communion wine just because I am not 100% sure of how black holes function and don't have proof about the creation of the universe.. but if you want, I can always do some tests on the wine to see if it really changes to blood..? Religious person X: Haha! No need to test the wine. I think we have heard enough already. You can not explain everything which proves that the Bible and all our believes are THE TRUTH Scientist: So...do you have any kind of proof of any of what you believe in? Religious person X: Bah! We have GOD's own words as proof. We have a 2k old book that says that everything it says is true. 'nuff said! Scientist: But the book is written by humans thousands of years ago and everyone who has read it knows it is filled with factual errors and contradicts itself on numerous occasions? Religious person X: GOD wrote it through humans. Are you doubting the word of GOD? Are *you* calling the almighty GOD a liar? You think *you* are wiser than the all-knowing omnipotent GOD? Blasphemy! You shall burn in HELL you heretic you! Scientist: Ok. I'll be going now. Nice talking to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Let it be known that I have pulled out of this thread because someone (who shall go nameless, but they indeed did post this in this thread) has called my beliefs idiotic. (You know who you are) I cannot debate with someone who is going to shoot down what I believe, or say it is idiotic. To whom the person I am speaking: If you ever, ever, ever, EVER call mine or anyone else's beliefs idiotic again, I will ban you from these forums. Capeshe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadfish Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Nothing but nonsense is on trial here. If you feel that the Bible is on trial, then that must mean that... Christianity was what I meant seemed to be on trial, but I would hardly call anyone's convictions and beliefs nonsense Is that a promise? How many missionaries do I have to turn away before JC gets the point and directs them to somewhere else? Surely it must be my right as a consumer to turn away all peddlers of the same, faulty good in one move Just as you are free, so are they. Yet they use their freedom to spend time reaching out. The christian in me is even more in awe of a God who would continue to direct His followers to you, when you are so nonreceptive. He must really care about you....Personally I am going to pray that they double their efforts! So, you are blessed if you believe that communism is good, even though you have never seen it do a good thing (apart from the fact that there are no such things as "good" or "evil")? You are blessed for believing that Hitler was a compassionate man, even though you haven't ever seen him make a compassionate action? While this may be insightful, it is totally out of context. I listed your quote to which I was responding- (**your statement: "I have never made the choice whether to accept JC. I want to see someone back the Bible with something real before I decide whether to follow him or not.") My response: Thomas could not believe Jesus had risen unless he saw Him, and put his finger in the nail hole. He needed proof just as you state you do. Jesus said if you can believe in me without seeing me you are blessed, Hitler was never mentioned For the record no I am not smoking Hashish Also, while Jesus did dwell among the "undesireables" of society, they could hardly be called terrorists, I think that is a bit speculative on your part. Twice in this thread you have said Jesus was a terrorist: I think you overestemate Jesus. After all, he was just a common terrorist. .........and You may want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards... Or you may not want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards... No man on earth has ever displayed more love than He, your accusations are unfounded and ludicrous.... As for asking if I am accusing you of attacking others, no. You have not attacked anyone in your statements except Jesus, and I'm sure He will forgive you. But some poison is leaking out along with the passion that we all display for our view. Make it a discussion or even debate, but not an arguement. That helps noone. Also a final answer about all this baby goes to hell stuff- "but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death" -James 1:14,15 Does a baby have evil desire? Of course not. He is born into a sinful nature because of Adam, and will someday sin because of that nature, thus someday will need salvation through Jesus. Lastly, Obi-Wan13, you should not deprive the rest of us of your insight because of the narrow mindedness of a single individual. Not to insult that person, just an observation. We will all never be the same....we should value anyone's view, even if we don't understand or even agree with it. I would be interested in knowing....what does everyone reading this believe will happen after you die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Maybe I over reacted, but the threat will be carried out if the person does not comply. After death, I will expect to be standing in front of the pearly gates, with a man with a book. He will look into that book and find my name in the book, and I will walk into those gates and see the greatest man that ever walked the Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadfish Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 I hope you stay, only by listening to the criticisms of others do we refine and solidify our faith. We should all keep in mind though that criticize does not mean belittle or insult...... As for your expectation after death, very well said! See you there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Originally posted by obi-wan13 After death, I will expect to be standing in front of the pearly gates, with a man with a book. He will look into that book and find my name in the book, and I will walk into those gates and see the greatest man that ever walked the Earth. And because you belive that, you may not care very much about improving your life before you die. Not talking just to you but to christians in general. They may be alright with being treated unfairly and bad, simply because, they're going to heaven anyway (after their belief). This was one of the reasons why the worker class in Europe in the 17-1800s didn't really do anything about the lousy payment and the terrible conditions at the factories. "Religion is opium for the people" -Karl Marx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Originally posted by meadfish The christian in me is even more in awe of a God who would continue to direct His followers to you, when you are so nonreceptive. He must really care about you....Personally I am going to pray that they double their efforts! You sound like you could use some empathy here. How would you react if you were besieged by Muslim missionaries on a daily basis? After all, it's just God directing his followers to "aid" you. There's no point in resisting, because you know Allah is best for you. Oh, you're saying you wouldn't like that? Well this is exactly what you're doing to us. If you found your culture invaded by Islam, I'm sure you'd react as well. This is what some people did down in the middle east. They got enough of the local Christian missionaries and shot them. I don't approve of this (though Templar likely does) but I can easily understand why they did it. My response: Thomas could not believe Jesus had risen unless he saw Him, and put his finger in the nail hole. He needed proof just as you state you do. Jesus said if you can believe in me without seeing me you are blessed, Hitler was never mentioned The point is, communism is great in theory, but the results of it have always been bad. The same goes for Christianity - great and harmless in theory, but it has been responsible for genocides and the killings of innocent women and children. Also, while Jesus did dwell among the "undesireables" of society, they could hardly be called terrorists, I think that is a bit speculative on your part. Twice in this thread you have said Jesus was a terrorist. History is written by the victors. Do you also blindly trust every history book you read? The Bible was written some hundred years after the factual events, and it's been through horribly many editions, each more twisted than the last. That said, Jesus was in fact affiliating with known terrorists (Judas Longknife and the Zealots). While the Bible for good reasons wouldn't depict his followers as terrorists, it's been verified from various other sources. I would be interested in knowing....what does everyone reading this believe will happen after you die? Death is The End. I will cease to exist and fade into the background. The world will go on without me, and for that, I am thankful. Christianity was what I meant seemed to be on trial, but I would hardly call anyone's convictions and beliefs nonsense What is nonsense? When are we allowed to call stupid, abject idiotic statements ignorant and nonsensical? Several times it has been mentioned that the Raelians are nutcases. If I walked up to you and stated that pigs can fly and that I'm napoleon, I'm sure you'd call me insane, nonsensical or idiotic. Where is the difference between these and your religion? There isn't any difference. You're just as much a "nutcase" as the Raelians. You're the same, but you refuse to acknowledge it. You like to think of Christianity as not defying facts and reality. I'm sure the Ralians, Muslims and Buddhists like to do the same thing. If we can't call dumb beliefs dumb beliefs, then I want this enforced on everyone. If I ever hear people saying you can't trust the Taliban, Eskimos or Raelians because their beliefs are severely wrong and skewed and because they do bad, immoral things, I'll have your ass banned to heaven. I want no distinctions at all or I'll call you the biggest hypocrite that ever walked the earth. Obi, while I agree we crossed the line (and so did the Christians, but that is of no matter here), we should all be able to distinguish between attacks on a person (flaming) and attacks and disproof of me thinking it's a good idea to kill dogs. Your beliefs are not you. They're just that, beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Originally posted by ShadowTemplar When do you feel "God" speaking? When you're on hashish? Watch where you're going there!!! You offended me and if this were exposed to other Christians they would be very offended also. Feeling God is the most amazing thing a person will ever experience. I HAVE FELT HIM. You can argue this point but DO NOT insult the people who do feel it. Originally posted by Luc Solar Picture this: A beautiful baby girl is born in a hospital. The next day a psycho escapes from the nearby mental institute, walks into the hospital and slits the throat of the baby. What does our beloved God do? --> he condemns the innocent baby to eternal pain and suffering in the flames of hell. ETERNAL PAIN AND SUFFERING because Adam bit the apple. Ok I said it once and I'll say it again. God does NOT send people to hel UNTIL THEY HAVE A CONCEPT OF RIGHT AND WRONG. This baby does not. Therefore it does not go to hell. Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn And because you belive that, you may not care very much about improving your life before you die. Not talking just to you but to christians in general. They may be alright with being treated unfairly and bad, simply because, they're going to heaven anyway (after their belief). Ok now the way we get to heaven is 1) Holy Spirit starts your salvation. 2) You must realize that you're lost. 3) God will give you saving faith. 4) Without repentence there is no salvation. 5) If these four things happen, you are forgiven... (These 5 things are what helped me come to Christ 7 years ago.) This DOES NOT mean that once we do these things we are set to go to heaven and can go murder, steal and commit sins. Once we accept this we must live our life FOR GOD which means living the way he wants us to which is not stealing and murdering. We as Christians cannot just accpt this and belive that we are going to heaven. If we live our life for God to the best of our abilities (He will know if we do this or not) after we accept him as our personal savior then we will go to heaven. To break it down... Acceptance of Jesus as our personal savior + Living our lives for God = Heaven. Originally posted by Cjais Obi, while I agree we crossed the line (and so did the Christians, but that is of no matter here), we should all be able to distinguish between attacks on a person (flaming) and attacks and disproof of me thinking it's a good idea to kill dogs. Your beliefs are not you. They're just that, beliefs. And that's where you're wrong. Beliefs MAKE UP who we are. You don't believe in Jesus or God or Heaven which is why you argue about it so much because it is your person. It is who you are. Obi and I belive in God and Heaven and that affects WHO WE ARE and how we live. Beliefs DO make up who a person is. So insulting beliefs = insult the person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadfish Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 As stated, I have not and will not call someone else's beliefs stupid, idiotic, ignorant, or nonsensical. Nor would I call anyone a "nutcase" or other insulting name for their beliefs. Throughout this post I have only presented the reasons for my beliefs, and left others to theirs. I don't feel that was reciprocated, but I'll get over it I can appreciate another's stern unbelief in my faith, but some pass on their rebutting opinion as absolute truth and imply that anyone not agreeing with it is intellectually deficient. Even worse is to me is that a moderator would do these things instead of filtering them out...which I assumed was a moderator's purpose. Such is life and it circles back to our "freewill", but whatever happened to common courtesy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Originally posted by meadfish As stated, I have not and will not call someone else's beliefs stupid, idiotic, ignorant, or nonsensical. Nor would I call anyone a "nutcase" or other insulting name for their beliefs. I was not referring to you specifically. I've heard many times that the Taliban and the Raelians are nutcases and the world would be a better place without them. Do you agree? How are these religions different from Christianity? They aren't, they have done the exact same bloody deeds, and they have the exact same amount of proof for their beliefs - none. I am God. The Lord. Jesus Christ. Am I ignorant, idiotic or nonsensical now? Would you like to see some proof of this bold statement? As I am God, I will fervently try to convert you to believe in me. Does it sound even more idiotic now? Are you interested in some proof? I have it right here, it says "Cjais is God." Boohoo - it looks like I'm right, and that I have the right to pelt you and everyone else with this. What is the difference between Christianity, Islam and Cjaisism with regards to the factual evidence? Are one of them less false than the other? What stops a non-religious person from believing in me instead of Christ? Another clue: Are kids who have an imaginary friend immature? Everyone can see it isn't there. Is it a belief to be respected and nurtured - or a silly illusion to be rooted our so they won't be bullied when they grow up? Is my imaginary friend any less false than your Christ? They have the same amount of proof behind them - zip. Nada. Should we respect the Al-Quada beliefs that the west should go down in flames and that Allah will aid them in this purpose? I'm sure you'd like to see some proof of this as well. I'm sure you think it's a childish, and not to mention dangerous, fantasy that must be rooted out for others to take them seriously and respect them. Throughout this post I have only presented the reasons for my beliefs, and left others to theirs. Simply stating that I'm going to burn in hell for my beliefs constitutes an attack on my faith. I can appreciate another's stern unbelief in my faith, but some pass on their rebutting opinion as absolute truth Are you saying that Jesus isn't absolute truth? Are you saying that you accept that you could be wrong, that Jesus could in fact just be an immature imaginary play friend? At least I have the sense to see that there is no truth. That I'm only striving to see the least false version of reality. And seeing that version of it requires facts, senses and evidence. Not blind belief. and imply that anyone not agreeing with it is intellectually deficient. So you're saying that there's a thing such as "intellectually deficient"? Am I retarded for saying I'm the Lord? Who in the world is retarded? If you can't name anyone, the term becomes void of meaning. Even worse is to me is that a moderator would do these things instead of filtering them out...which I assumed was a moderator's purpose. This is a personal attack. What I have done? Stated that your beliefs are false? I'll confess to that. Stated that there's a difference between actions and the person who commits them? I'll glady confess to this as well. Have I called you ignorant? No. Retarded? No. Idiotic? No. Here is what ShadowTemplar said: Would the statement "I believe pigs can fly" be any less idiotic to you? Is this an assault on you as a person? On the person who believes pigs can fly? Such is life and it circles back to our "freewill", but whatever happened to common courtesy? Calling me narrow minded doesn't exactly further the "Holier than thou"-attitude you're currently expressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Ace Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Man I leave for two days and the dam busts . I'm glad some of my fellow bros and sisters showed up I was feeling lonely . Just a quick thing on the whole evolution vs. creation thing. When it comes down to it we really dont know 100% how the earth was created. God may have used evolution (I believe otherwise) and it could have been literally days. We weren't there. But the same thing goes for those of you that believe in evolution, you werent there either, so you dont know 100%. Theories change over the years, science changes its mind. Evolution is still a theory and not a law. Take the hullaballu when they "created life in a test tube" to simulate how planets formed the basic building blocks of life (Miller-Urey). It was a bunch of crap. While a few building blocks did appear none of the essential building blocks of life were formed, yet in all our biology books that experiment is still used to support evolution. Thats just one of many examples. they have a whole thred about ev. vs cr. so that may be a better place to have this discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Evolution is a theory - correct. Theories can be proven. Theories can incorporate laws and tested hypotheses. Calling it a theory does not mean it is any less false as long as it's been proven. And been proved it has. Many times. That the Genesis happened has not been proven at all. That the Genesis could have happened has not been proved at all either. Do I really have to let you in on the conclusion of this? But you are correct that we don't know 100% how the earth was created. Could God have had a hand in it? Yes. Could God have created it as in the literal interpretation found in the Bible? No. If you take the Genesis for a metaphor, that Homo Sapiens evolved from a primate ancestor, that there was no Noah's Ark, that all the species that ever lived on the earth didn't coexist at one time - if you do this, I salute you. Realizing evolution is fact does not mean God doesn't exist. Catholics have realized this. Can "Christians" do this as well? My real gripe with Christians is that they pass off the fossil record as non-existant. That it's all fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Yes and if evolution did happen (which I don't belive it did) and the Big Bang and all that stuff... it would have been a miracle. To have complex lifeforms come into being after many years from a piece of matter that had no volume but infinite mass OR "Nothing", constitutes a miracle. As does the complex life forms like us that followed that after blillions of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandalorian54 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Evolution is silly if you think about it, it makes no logical sense. If your walking down the street and you hear an explosion at the car plant you don't expect a nice new car to drive out, because you know that wont hapen. for evry action there is a re-action. If a collision takes place, matter is reduced to rubble and sent hurling away from the place of impact. Life doesn't form. In this whole world evrything is in order, if it were all a coincedence there would be many messed up and strange things, how is it the world has order and natural laws such as gravity. Evolution does not explain the orgin of the meteor which collided to create life, or the cell that traveled on the meteor, depending on which evolution view you hold. The only reason evolution is accepted by scientists is because they don't want to believe that they were created by a God who will punish them for doing wrong. -------------------- How are these religions different from Christianity? They aren't, they have done the exact same bloody deeds, and they have the exact same amount of proof for their beliefs - none. that's a pretty ignorant thing to say, evry religion is very different. How do you explain your own existence and the unique complicated world you live in? evolution? out of chance evrything exists? but wear does the stuff that coincidently created evrything, wear did it come from? were did the first peice of matter come from? This is what separates Christianity from evry other religion. All religion has similar aspects, like GOD, heaven, creation. But most religions say that with hard work, and good works you can go to heaven, but Christianity teaches that we cant do anything to achieve eternal life but God out of mercy and kindness chose some of us to be with him for ever. All other religions have fault because they were made by men who were at fault. But chrisianity was given to us by GOD so it is perfect and is the only truth. I mean think logically about it, If you put two people in the same room and tell them to write a book on religion they will end up arguing because they wont agree on much. but The BIBLE was writen by fourty people over two centuries most of whom never met each other and it does not contradict itself and is historically accurate, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Originally posted by Mandolorian54 Evolution is silly if you think about it, it makes no logical sense. If your walking down the street and you hear an explosion at the car plant you don't expect a nice new car to drive out, because you know that wont hapen. Firstly, anyone who knows enough of evolution can make logical sense out of it. Secondly, if I told you that over 99.9% of the earth is complete emptiness, then that doesn't sound very logical. But it is true, and has been proven, and no one really doubt it. Cjais, Luc Solar and ShadowTemplar can comment the rest, so I'll just jump right to All other religions have fault because they were made by men who were at fault. But chrisianity was given to us by GOD so it is perfect and is the only truth. Do you know what you are doing now? You are insulting every religion except christianity. There is no real difference between them. Tell me, why can't Allah be true? It does say in a book that he does, so why don't you think that is true? There is only one answer: You have been taught to belive in the christianic god instead of any of the others. There cannot be any other reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Originally posted by Mandolorian54 that's a pretty ignorant thing to say, evry religion is very different. You're quoting me out of context here. evolution? out of chance evrything exists? but wear does the stuff that coincidently created evrything, wear did it come from? were did the first peice of matter come from? The same place your God came from. No, I don't know, but at least I'm interested in finding out. Petty beliefs won't stop me delving into this delicate matter. But most religions say that with hard work, and good works you can go to heaven, but Christianity teaches that we cant do anything to achieve eternal life but God out of mercy and kindness chose some of us to be with him for ever. So you're saying it doesn't take hard work to be a Christian? That if I just surrender now, I'll automatically be let into heaven? I'll like some proof of people who have entered heaven before i'll go believing in it. All other religions have fault because they were made by men who were at fault. This is an attack on other beliefs, and it's not the first one you've made. Not that I care, but some people no doubt do in this place. But chrisianity was given to us by GOD so it is perfect and is the only truth. And the Old Testament wasn't given to the Jews by God? The Koran wasn't delivered to Muhammed by God? And show me examples of this truth you're talking about. but The BIBLE was writen by fourty people over two centuries most of whom never met each other and it does not contradict itself and is historically accurate, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT!!!! With this and this. The genesis alone should be enough to label the Bible as historically false and contradicting in the extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadfish Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 (previously)... Where is the difference between these and your religion? There isn't any difference. You're just as much a "nutcase" as the Raelians. I do not perceive a distinction here between being called a nutcase, or those who share my beliefs being nutcases. The statement above says I am a nutcase, which may be true, but it sounds like a flame... I was not referring to you specifically. I've heard many times that the Taliban and the Raelians are nutcases and the world would be a better place without them. Do you agree? These things are not in this post, so why attack the people and beliefs in this post? As for do I agree, I there is no race of people that the world would be better off without - only evil people. There are good and evil in every race, faith, color, country, city, etc. but we are all equal and equally valuable to the earth and whomever reigns over it. Simply stating that I'm going to burn in hell for my beliefs constitutes an attack on my faith. I never did and would not say that. So my statement to which this was a response is still true. Are you saying that Jesus isn't absolute truth? Are you saying that you accept that you could be wrong, that Jesus could in fact just be an immature imaginary play friend? At least I have the sense to see that there is no truth. That I'm only striving to see the least false version of reality. And seeing that version of it requires facts, senses and evidence. Not blind belief. I believe Jesus is absolute truth. What I am saying is that if someone else doesn't believe it, that's OK! I believe because I have had personal revelation and evidence. Could someone theorize my belief, maybe. Could another provide a logical and scientific reason for the evidence which I have experienced....probably. Does that make it less valid to me? No. It only provides a non believer more reasons not to believe in it. This is a personal attack. What I have done? Stated that your beliefs are false? In your opinion they are false. In some others' here they are true. Some responses here are not just factual contradiction, but insulting comparisons to terrorism, again an opinion. Some claim to know of historical fact, but as stated earlier...do you believe everything you read? These responses have offended at least three people that made it evident, perhaps more that did not. Later some have back tracked to explain them, but not when they were expressed. And "narrow minded" is the opposite of "open minded". An open minded person would accept that any of these beliefs or faiths are conceivably possible.Some have not shown this open mindedness. Besides that remark was directed to anyone who would insult someone to the point that they would leave the thread. I have no quarrel with anyone here, I value all opinion. No offense was ever intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Originally posted by meadfish I do not perceive a distinction between you calling me a nutcase, or those who share my beliefs. I am totally ok with you thinking I am whatever you choose, but your response is that I am I'm sorry, but I don't get what you're trying to say here. I have not called you a nutcase. And you are of course not "whatever I choose". You have not heard these things in this post, so why attack the people and beliefs in this post? Simply, because if a moderator finds it necessary to ban people becuase of not accepting beliefs, I can do too. Only I don't view Christianity as above other beliefs, and it being the sole religion I can't "insult". I never did and would not say that. So my statement to which this was your response is still true. Sorry. Another Christian said that, and I'm too lazy to look it up. But the question is: Will I burn in hell for not accepting Christ? No? Of course? I believe Jesus is absolute truth. What I am saying is that if you don't believe it, that's OK! As a lot of Christians in here have expressed, it is obviously not okay with you. I'm not saved. I must repent. I'm subject to conversion. In your opinion they are false. In some others' here they are true. Until you have proven they are true, they remain false. Just as if I believe pigs can fly, it doesn't make it true. It's really not my job to disprove these things, it's yours to prove them. Now we're again operating on the maturity level of our little imaginary friend. Your responses are not just factual contradiction Where? but insulting comparisons to terrorism Not in the slightest "insulting". Saying that Hitler was a bad man is not insulting. Saying Christianity has provided no measurable good to the world is not insulting. You claim to know of historical fact, but like you stated earlier...do you believe everything you read? That which can be proven, yes. Your responses have offended at least three people that made it evident Which, where and how? I can't see it anywhere. Later you have back tracked to explain them, but not when you expressed them. I only "backtracked to explain them" because I thought most people in here were able to understand what I was saying. Sorry if I offended anyone. And "narrow minded" is the opposite of "open minded". And "retarded" is the opposite of mature. It's not necessarily an insult, as I know several retarded persons who are good people. Stop misusing the word "insult". No offense was ever intended. None on my part either As I've noticed you don't like replying to my entire posts, does this mean you agree with the rest of what I say? Or do you just like to quote out of context? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by Cjais Simply, because if a moderator finds it necessary to ban people becuase of not accepting beliefs, I can do too. Only I don't view Christianity as above other beliefs, and it being the sole religion I can't "insult". If you are referring to me, you missed completely what I meant. I wasn't going to ban the guy for not having my views, I was going to ban him for insulting them, which is NOT ok with me. Even if he was a christian and insulted those who where not, I would have given the same warning. However, If you were not referring to me, ignore this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Ace Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Could God have created it as in the literal interpretation found in the Bible? No. Ah but on the contrary he could have. He is God. And being God he can do anything. Now I know that you will not accept that answer, big deal, but realise that there are just as many holes in evolutionary theory. Read the book Darwins Black Box it gives hard scientific evidance that supports creationism. Also check this out: http://icr.org/ . My real gripe with Christians is that they pass off the fossil record as non-existant. That it's all fake. The reason many of us "pass off the fossil record" is because there are some major flaws in it. There are huge holes in the time line that cannot be explained. So you're saying it doesn't take hard work to be a Christian? That if I just surrender now, I'll automatically be let into heaven? Yes being a Christian does take work but that work is enjoyable. Yes if you surrender your life to Christ you will go to heaven no question. But it must be a conversion from the heart not fire insurance. I'll like some proof of people who have entered heaven before i'll go believing in it. The thing is that no matter if you believe in it or not it still exists, just like hell. The problem is that you will not realise your error until it is too late . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadfish Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 So now that we are all firmly seated on our high horses, let me conclued my involvement with this. With 6+ billion people in this world, I am sure a very small percentile believe exactly as I do. I would be "retarded" (for lack of a better term) to think otherwise. In my zeal to match wit and response I digressed away from the real issue at hand - Luc Solar"s original post. I am a Christian. It is the faith, religion, belief, or whatever that I firmly believe in. I pray every day so that I can grow closer to God, who I believe to be speaking to me and through me. I pray for myself, I pray for others. Many, many "christians" are hypocrites - but not everyone who says "I am a christian" is truly one. It is not my job or even my right to say who is or isn't. Having been a youth pastor I can tell you many say they are to fit in, but they know nothing of the faith, the belief, nor have they accepted Jesus as Savior. So many smart and passionate people in here, that is the best thing I will take from this. Sorry it took almost a hundred replies to get to that, and even more sorry for any toes stepped on along the way. Set up a server, invite me, and I will let you DFA me to your heart's content. Now, I think I will resume the task that brought me to this forum in the first place: How do you make your name invisible on the duel list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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