C'jais Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 Originally posted by Luc Solar What is the ultimate goal of every Christian..no: every religious and sane person? >>> To be a GOOD person. That's it; A good person. A good person is patient, forgiving, kind, generous, altruistic. Well, yes. And you don't need God to tell you that, as Luc has just demonstrated. You should all read Cjais sig... it's more true than Cjais himself knows. Thanks.... hehehe. No really, I do know that I'm not fully aware of that wisdom, with me being only 17 and all. I suspect I'll find it much more dear with age, as I'll get the chance to stand on my own in life, as I also suspect that this is where that particular insight will come in handy the most. I think I need to stress the "accept" part of it. There's a difference between acknowledging that you're wrong, and accepting it - to accept, you need to learn from it, and move on. Now if you excuse me, I'll go and get another beer. And while you're getting a beer, here's an interesting article I found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted March 16, 2003 Author Share Posted March 16, 2003 Originally posted by C'jais No really, I do know that I'm not fully aware of that wisdom, with me being only 17 and all. I suspect I'll find it much more dear with age, as I'll get the chance to stand on my own in life, as I also suspect that this is where that particular insight will come in handy the most./B] For Christ sakes! You are 17!! Are you kidding me?? You know....after reading a few posts from Skinwalker and others (Griff the rest of you guys) you notice that they think first, write second. That is a trait that comes with age and experience. You say you're 17? Seriously? 17? OMFG, STFU!? I mean that in a nice way. You're the sort of a guy that I would vote for in 25 years. (Finland voted for parliament today, so it's a hot topic) How the hell do you know English so well??? Have you lived in Brighton for the last 15 years or what? Damn you Cjais - go get an IQ-test or something and leave us mortals alone! EDIT: a special thanks to Skinwalker for all those excellent post about the Iraq-situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 I'm only 14 so how d'ya like THAT for maturity. And C'jais, I thought you were like 35 or something by your mastery of the English language even though you are foreign born and live in another country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklighter Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 Same here, I thought Cjais had to be at least 20. Way beyond your years, you are;)I consider a lot of other people in here who are younger than me a lot wiser and knowledgable, including you Reborn;)Damn I didn't know you were 14, that is quite amazing:)I'm 16, and probably a lot less wise than you:D Problem with me is that I'm quite narrow-minded, and won't readily consider the other side of the argument. Damn my stubborness:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 (Damn I can't handle compliments like this, but I thank you very much anyway ) As for your questions, no, I've never lived in England. I used to go there on summer holidays, but that's as far as it went. And no, I'm not terribly smart either - above average, but nothing outstanding. For all of my "mastery of the English language", I can't even get good grades on my English papers I can't really see what sets my apart from others really. I mean, I'm not in any way more mature than my class mates and I'm outright stupid at dealing with my own life. Now, let's get back on topic EDIT: I took an online IQ test once and got around 120. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast And C'jais, I thought you were like 35 or something by your mastery of the English language even though you are foreign born and live in another country. Just so you know it, I'm 13... EDIT: I took an online IQ test once and got around 120. Perhaps you can try this one: http://www.iqtest.com/. It's really easy though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn Just so you know it, I'm 13... 13!i! I had you down as around 16... Qui is my new poster child for tomorrow I tried the IQ test, but it required a credit card. Bummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Originally posted by C'jais I tried the IQ test, but it required a credit card. Bummer. It doesn't. As long as you give them your email, they will mail it to you after you've done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioshee Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Being a Christian isn’t about following the “rules” of the Bible. So many people misunderstand that. It’s not about being a “good person” either. Good is such a relative term. Besides, I don’t think there has been a single good person on earth ever. Not perfect at any rate. And if you are not perfect then how do you measure your good level? Is there an imaginary scale that you put little good weights and bad weights on? Besides, being good isn’t hard… it’s impossible The Bible never says you get something for being good (other than peace within your own spirit.) In terms of salvation it clearly states that that is a free gift. Being good is just a side effect (so to speak) of having a relationship with the creator of the universe. First comes the faith then everything else in terms of behavior comes naturally. Ok just imagine this scenario (you can call it hypothetical if you want.) There is a God. He makes a planet and everything on it. He’s perfect in every way. Because he is perfect he cannot be around anyone who is not perfect. No one lives up to this standard. He is perfectly just (as in justice) so there must be consequences for not being perfect. Instead of punishing humans he makes a sacrifice out of his own son. He gives you two choices: 1. Accept the fact that he did this instead of punishing you. 2. Get punished I don’t see what’s so unbelievable about that. Does is make more sense that a higher power would make the universe and then totally forget it? If you believe there is no higher power then you have a better imagination than I do. The big bang theory is harder to believe than the Bible. It all comes down to an issue of pride. Are you too proud to think that your fate is not determined by your own actions? We are raised to think that we get something for being good and to be proud of being good. Most “Christian” churches today preach behavioral correctness. So you get this mentality that going to hell has something to do with bad behavior. If people went to hell because of bad behavior then everyone would go to hell. What separates true Christianity from every other major religion in the world is that being a Christian has nothing to do with your actions. Every other religion is about working towards a goal of being “good”. Christianity doesn’t have a goal; it’s simply one step. A decision. Sadly, Christian churches today forego what the Bible really says and opt to talk about being good and how hard it is. Again, being good isn’t hard, it’s impossible (at least to the standards of the God in the Bible.) So why do Churches talk about not “sinning”? Because they are morons. Those types of churches might as well be any good-behavior teaching religion. It makes me sad because the majority of people who call themselves Christians try to share bits and pieces of the Bible as they (or someone they heard preach) interpret them. That gives everyone who doesn’t consider themselves a Christian a really warped view of what the Bible really says. If you read the whole Bible in context with just a teeny tiny bit of faith, you will see that it’s not about following rules and that it really isn’t open to interpretation. It’s pretty plain. It’s hard to misunderstand its meaning unless you want to. Only by admitting that you are not good will you find goodness. Only by admitting that you are foolish will you become wise. Only by admitting that you are weak will you find strength. Not in yourself, but in the being that created you. Only by totally giving yourself up will you find out what you really are. So I believe true Christians can’t be hypocrites. Not because they are perfect, but because true Christians never claim to be perfect. Everyone is equal. It just comes down to whether or not you want to take a free gift or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 I don't know about that IQ test... I got a 169 lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandalorian54 Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 I see what you mean darklighter. As for who founded christianity. It was Jesus who brought the teachings and doctrine, and then the twelve apostles and other followers of Christ put together the Bible and presented christianity. But after Constantine legalized christianity all these other false teachings got mixed in with christianity and that's why you have Catholics and Jehovah whitnesses and other "Christians" who do not follow the teachings of Christ and the Bible. Please excuse my spelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Originally posted by Mandolorian54 Catholics You consider Catholics "false" Christians?! Hmmm... how so? (For the sake of discussion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioshee Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast You consider Catholics "false" Christians?! Hmmm... how so? (For the sake of discussion) Can I discuss it even though I didn’t say it? I have known Catholics that are Christians and Catholics that are not. Just like I know People who call themselves Christians but really aren’t. Although I will say, most Catholics I’ve seen truly discover what freedom in Christ means give up the “religious” aspects of their faith. Just as Protestants should. Religion is just a distraction from what faith should be. As far as Jehovah’s Witness' go, they are just a cult like Mormons:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted March 18, 2003 Author Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by ioshee Being a Christian isn’t about following the “rules” of the Bible. So many people misunderstand that. It’s not about being a “good person” either. ... What separates true Christianity from every other major religion in the world is that being a Christian has nothing to do with your actions. Every other religion is about working towards a goal of being “good”. Christianity doesn’t have a goal; it’s simply one step. A decision. So I believe true Christians can’t be hypocrites. Not because they are perfect, but because true Christians never claim to be perfect. Everyone is equal. It just comes down to whether or not you want to take a free gift or not. Ok. That was one excellent post, ioshee. One that evades most of christianity's pitfalls. Glad to have you in the Senate Chambers. I wish I had time to comment on it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff38 Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by munik Well, I referenced the American Standard Version, and the Revised Standard Version. Apparently, the Bible says whatever you want it to say, as long as you have the right version. Aside from the absurdity of going in and surviving inside the stomach of any animal, I don't even think there is a fish that has a stomach large enough to contain an adult man. So, if it's a whale, that's at least partially feasible, but if it's only a fish, unfeasible. Young dude you have egg on your face, after nitpiking Obi over a single word, for you to admit you only look at 1 of many bible versions is embarrassing. (what makes your version more accurate than any other?) And I agree a human is not going to be living long in the belly of anything but there are several fish large enough to swallow an adult human. Not counting the sea going mammals. The story of Jonah (in my opinion is a Metaphor),people sometimes gets swallowed up by ideas or concepts that take over their lives. And can in time, like Jonah escape from their constraints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Actually, if you take that story and read the whole thing The Bible says its all true, not a myth or fairytale. Jonah survived because of a miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandalorian54 Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Johna isn't the only person to have survived in the belly of a whale. I have read about another person, all though it was a while ago and I can't remeber his name. But the book was titled "When Science Fails", if your curiouse. as for catholics, Very few are christians, but of course it's possible. But I liked what you said Ioshee, That is why I and christians from my church and my christian friends always say, Christianity is not a religion it's a faith. And Catholics are not christians because they teach things that go against the Bible. They used to only have the bible in latin, and it was forbidden for common folk to read the bible, because the church made all these false teachings, for example: holy water, praying to marry, purgatory,and selling of indulgence. none of these things are in the Bible, exept for the Catholic Bible, which has two books added to it. you see...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioshee Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Luc, thanks for the encouraging words. It’s always nice to know someone read your long @$$ post hehe. Mandolorian54, I agree with you about the added stuff. I think that is wrong. I can't say I know a whole lot about Catholicism so you are probably more qualified than I am on that subject. I think that there are certain things about the Catholic faith that are biblical. It all depends on where you focus is. If it’s on Jesus, right on. If it’s on beads and candles and statues then wrong on. If beads help you remember to focus on Jesus I’m not going to say you are an idiot. (I’m using the word you in general. I’m not referring to you Mando54.) On the subject of Joanna and the FISH being unbelievable: If you find that story unbelievable then you will probably find a great deal of things in the Bible hard to swallow (pun intended.) I heard a teacher put it this way once. "If you can believe the first verse in the Bible, you shouldn't have a problem with anything else that follows." So it comes back to an issue of faith doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Originally posted by Mandolorian54 And Catholics are not christians because they teach things that go against the Bible. They used to only have the bible in latin, and it was forbidden for common folk to read the bible, because the church made all these false teachings, for example: holy water, praying to marry, purgatory,and selling of indulgence. I will just ask you a question. Why do you belive you have the right to judge who's christian and who's not? I thought only God could do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadfish Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 I notice a trend in this thread.....not by all, but many...... "I am right you are wrong, this is why" None of us are in any position to judge right and wrong for another..... Nobody can really be wrong because they are stating what they believe, or don't believe. If someone knows something is true but ignores it, that would be wrong. I don't agree with the teachings of Joseph Smith (Mormonism) or Charles Taze Russel (basis of Jehovah's Witnesses) but I would not tell someone who does that they are wrong. I would tell what I do believe and let them do the same. This is why I am confused a little about the whole Catholic/Christianity issue. There are definite differences and similarities between the two faiths, but to me they are obviously different. Just as JW's and Mormons have similar "Christian" ideals they don't claim to be Christian. So If you are Catholic and it is what you believe then be Catholic. It does not mean you are wrong, just Catholic. The fact is, some people have a personal "spiritual" desire to believe in a creator, some don't. If someone has that desire, they may try several paths before they land on the one that fits them best. People without that desire still try paths, but for other reasons. Some people don't take any path, they just watch others go back and forth, but are only commited to being non-commital Sometimes the path you choose ends up being an "interstate" that only led to another path. When you hunger to know the Creator, whomever He is, your path will be unavoidable. Til then, be you....the good you Your parents and friends will respect you for being the best you, or admonish you for being a bad you. My personal beliefs are stated 2 or 3 pages earlier in this thread, as is my take on being "Technically Christian" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Originally posted by ioshee Being good is just a side effect (so to speak) of having a relationship with the creator of the universe. First comes the faith then everything else in terms of behavior comes naturally. So being a Good Christian is irrelevant, as long as you're Christian? Let me get this: It doesn't matter if I'm an abusive alcoholic who likes to rape little puppies, as long as I believe in Christ? Wow. I never thought it worked that way. So all the stuff about us being weighed and measured when we're dead, to see if we're "worthy" of standing next to Jesus doesn't really matter? Ok just imagine this scenario (you can call it hypothetical if you want.) There is a God. He’s perfect in every way. Because he is perfect he cannot be around anyone who is not perfect. No one lives up to this standard. He is perfectly just (as in justice) so there must be consequences for not being perfect. Instead of punishing humans he makes a sacrifice out of his own son. He gives you two choices: 1. Accept the fact that he did this instead of punishing you. 2. Get punished I don’t see what’s so unbelievable about that. That'd be all well and good as long as we actually knew that was what happened. We don't. What we've got is a collection of scriptures (most written by the same, one man), all claiming the authors recieved divine inspiration. They're telling us that the Bible is right because it's divine. But who wrote the Bible? People did. People claiming divine intervention did. I could make the same statement: I'm right because I say I am. I have the mandate to say I am right, because I am divine. Yet, I'm still just an ordinary human as far as we all know, so there's no way to test this statement. Thus, it is circular reasoning, and thus we can discard this hypothesis (it's not even a theory) as we see fit. Thus your entire argument falls. Case closed. He makes a planet and everything on it. Now this is interesting. What if we found life on other planets? Would you then start reading the Bible as a bunch of metaphors, not to be taken literally? Would the whole Genesis fall on its behind because it's only dealing with this planet? Because, as you know, you can't add to the Bible... If you believe there is no higher power then you have a better imagination than I do. On the contrary, believing is an active feat of imagination, so that point is pretty moot. The big bang theory is harder to believe than the Bible. If only you had to believe in hard data and tested theories, this statement would be somewhat true. No. You cannot believe in the theory of gravity, nor the theory of evolution, the atomic theory or the big bang theory for that matter. It all comes down to an issue of pride. Are you too proud to think that your fate is not determined by your own actions? Are you too proud to think that your fate is not utterly insignificant and that the universe's pityless indifference doesn't care what happens to you, and excuse this lack of realization by inventing something imaginary to look after you? Your fate is determined by everything. We are raised to think that we get something for being good and to be proud of being good. No. We are raised to see that our species can only prosper in a peaceful, calm environment. "Being nice" is not only a moral, it is downright evident that it is one of the better ways to survive. Christianity doesn’t have a goal; it’s simply one step. A decision. Sadly, some Christians in here are of the notion that it is "not enough just to believe". Preach to them instead. Those types of churches might as well be any good-behavior teaching religion. And those good-behaviour religions are the ones I'd like to live next door to - definately some zealot who thinks it's okay to do whatever he wants as long as he'll get to heaven anyway. The crusades, the priest-supported slavery in the States, the eradication of farming communities in the Philipines, The dark ages, the killing of abortion-practicing doctors, Bush Jr.'s religious mandate to wage a war and the overpopulation in Africa doesn't ring the slightest bell? If you read the whole Bible in context with just a teeny tiny bit of faith, you will see that it’s not about following rules and that it really isn’t open to interpretation. Not open to interpretation. I'll remember that. Tell me, was the earth created 6000 years ago? Does the Bible objectify women and condemn homosexuals? Is abortion murder? Only by admitting that you are not good will you find goodness. Only by admitting that you are foolish will you become wise. Only by admitting that you are weak will you find strength. Not in yourself, but in the being that created you. Only by totally giving yourself up will you find out what you really are. Only by realizing that you are truly insignificant will you come to terms with your finite existence. Only by realizing that beliefs will bow before data will you discover the inner mechanics of everything. Only by realizing that all religions are built on the same principles of circular reasoning will you open your mind. So I believe true Christians can’t be hypocrites. That's an irresponsible way of explaining how your religion is morally superior. Everyone is equal. Explain the case called Mandalorian54, please. It just comes down to whether or not you want to take a free gift or not. That gift is in your mind alone. Wanting eternal bliss is about as selfish as it gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Originally posted by Mandolorian54 Johna isn't the only person to have survived in the belly of a whale. I have read about another person, all though it was a while ago and I can't remeber his name. But the book was titled "When Science Fails", if your curiouse. Is this the story? Listen, there's no way you can survive inside a whale for more than 5 minutes without getting choked, disolved and digested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Originally posted by C'jais For all of my "mastery of the English language", I can't even get good grades on my English papers Could that have something to do with the fact that you do them between 10 and 12 pm the day before deadline? Fish/Whale: A whale is not a fish. If your version of the Bible states that, then your version of the Bible is silly... Buut that's not saying much. BTW, Obi, there is a fish big enough to contain a human in its stommach. It's a big species of shark. But it eats plankton, so I don't know if it could actually swallow a man. And C'Jais: Don't mock the Phlogistone theory. It was based on empirical evidence: Things get heavier when they burn (burning is basically an oxidation that binds oxygen to the fuel, which of course makes it heavier. It was therefore suspected that inflammible materials contained a substance dubbed phlogistone, which had a negative mass and was consumed in the burning. So the Phlogistone theory wasn't wrong when it was concieved. Sure, it was false, but that doesn't make it wrong. It was, however, disproven definitively when some smart chap (can't remember his name, unfortunately) decided to use scales in his experiments, and found that a closed container containing fuel and air had exactly the same mass before and after the oxidation. Then the Phlogistone theory became wrong. But it remained false throughout. Lastly, for the multiple arguements like "I am god, I am right, I wrote it down so why not believe me? what is the difference? I believe one version earlier was called C'jaisism. Just to use that as example.... Opium qualifies to all of the criteria in your example (note that I'm not compaireing religion to opium (right now), merely pointing out the obvious failings of the argument)... Lol. I just tried the test you guys mentioned... This is what I got. Thank you for recently taking the Self Discovery Workshop's IQ Test. Because of the Internet's ability to mishandle transmissions, we are reconfirming via email that your IQ Test score was: 155 (give or take a little for sloppy time-keeping) Which is, in short, why I don't go for IQ tests. Only by realizing that you are truly insignificant will you come to terms with your finite existence. Only by realizing that beliefs will bow before data will you discover the inner mechanics of everything. Only by realizing that all religions are built on the same principles of circular reasoning will you open your mind. Preach it!... Wait... I don't like preachers... Hmm... Okay... Make it public! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted March 20, 2003 Author Share Posted March 20, 2003 Don't know nor care if it was that same online IQ-test I took a while back.. but that time I answered every question (~5 options & 50 or more questions) randomly and scored 101. That's a bit above "average intelligence". I'm either incredibly lucky or the test sucks....and I don't believe in luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Originally posted by Luc Solar Don't know nor care if it was that same online IQ-test I took a while back.. but that time I answered every question (~5 options & 50 or more questions) randomly and scored 101. That's a bit above "average intelligence". No. That is average intelligence. There is both a spread and an accuracy on those things... But then again, your example serves fine. I'm either incredibly lucky or the test sucks....and I don't believe in luck. "I attribute my entire success to luck... But I find that I am more lucky when I've practised." Unfortunately I can't remember who said it. But I definitely think that luck exists. Only it is extremely subjective. For example, you could take this situation: I lose my wallet with 100€ in it. Some guy finds it. Is this chain of events lucky or unlucky? Bad luck for me, I'd say, but fair luck for Jhon Doe. BTW: I'm 16 for whom it may concern. But I don't plan on staying so, so the validity of that comment will probably cease to apply over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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