Luc Solar Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Personally I'm sick and tired of logging on a Full Force All Weapons FFA and constantly hearing people whine: "LAMER! U pushed me! U kicked me! Lightning wh0re! You shot me in the back! You used a big gun! I was unarmed!! You didn't bow! You killed me even though I was only going to run past you with my rocket launcher and chat with my buddy on the other side of the map! Dishonorable scum!" BUT Accoring to your theory Aoshi, the reconnecting-bug (I mean: "feature") is also a part of the game and should not be whined about. Exploits do exists. Bugs do exist. There are a lot of things in JO that should have been done better. The game is filled with screw-ups. People are just so immature that they feel stuff like the reconnecting bug are OK simply because it allows them to WIN, OWN or whatever. 1.03 was horrible. Sabers did 0 damage. The only viable tactic was to press you BUTT in the opponents FACE and execute a ridiculous backstab (with the help of yawspeed) which was a one hit kill. Everyone must understand that Raven screwed up with 1.03. The game had become ludicrous. But here's my point: WINNING OR LOSING ONLINE SHOULD NOT BE A FACTOR WHEN CONSIDERING IF A GAME IS FAULTY OR NOT. I can not play saber only 1.04. It is simply too boring. The saber is useless. Kick-kick-kick. Kick. Too bad I suck with guns Ps. By "The Exploit" do you mean homing missiles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Wall-Gliding may be a bug which can be "exploited", but it requires skill to use. A true exploit is one which gives a skill-less player a rediculous advantage, aka the rocket bug. Yes, it can be outrun, but its moving twice as fast as the regular homing shot and its twice as agile (the think method of the rocket is called twice as often), plus you don't even have to be facing in your target's direction when you fire. You can run away from them and fire, and it'll STILL hit them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEEZus Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 I SAW SOMEONE CHEATING IN A SERVER RP! GO POLICE IT AND SHOW THEM UP!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoshi Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Originally posted by Luc Solar Personally I'm sick and tired of logging on a Full Force All Weapons FFA and constantly hearing people whine: "LAMER! U pushed me! U kicked me! Lightning wh0re! You shot me in the back! You used a big gun! I was unarmed!! You didn't bow! You killed me even though I was only going to run past you with my rocket launcher and chat with my buddy on the other side of the map! Dishonorable scum!" BUT Accoring to your theory Aoshi, the reconnecting-bug (I mean: "feature") is also a part of the game and should not be whined about. Exploits do exists. Bugs do exist. There are a lot of things in JO that should have been done better. The game is filled with screw-ups. People are just so immature that they feel stuff like the reconnecting bug are OK simply because it allows them to WIN, OWN or whatever. 1.03 was horrible. Sabers did 0 damage. The only viable tactic was to press you BUTT in the opponents FACE and execute a ridiculous backstab (with the help of yawspeed) which was a one hit kill. Everyone must understand that Raven screwed up with 1.03. The game had become ludicrous. But here's my point: WINNING OR LOSING ONLINE SHOULD NOT BE A FACTOR WHEN CONSIDERING IF A GAME IS FAULTY OR NOT. I can not play saber only 1.04. It is simply too boring. The saber is useless. Kick-kick-kick. Kick. Too bad I suck with guns Ps. By "The Exploit" do you mean homing missiles? yea but raven has had plenty of time to edit that kinda stuff out and they havent whereas the disconnect bug is new. i dunno i wouldnt want to be a duelist and have to deal with it, but it's not my cup of tea so i never worry about it. the saber damage is what makes .04 ludicrous. i mean for christ sake it's a ****ing sword made of light. how the hell can it only do 30 damage? if raven would have been smart and made the lightsaber at least a normal damage everything would be fine. duelist complain about wanting "movie like duels?" just up the blocking rate when you have your saber out. personally i think 1 stab in the back should = instant kill. maybe then i'd actually use the saber as more than a ****ing shield when i play. i personally am not for or against the disconnect bug. it's an 'exploit' just like everything else but at least the other 'exploits' require skill and dont give someone an overwhelming advantage. i dunno if raven patches it out then good for them. if not then i see more people leaving the game in the near future. really i just think people need to see this thing for what it is. it's a ****ing game for crying out loud. you cant have 'honor' in a game where you run around killing things.. i mean WTF?? for someone to have 'honor' first they have to exist and be rational. you cant say that ghosts have 'honor' because they are transient. the internet is transient like that too. take for example, i can choose to be male or female young or old anything i like and then i can make multiple personas around whatever type of person i want to be. who's to say that i really act this way or act that way? there's no solid link through the internet to me so me, as a physical being, cannot have 'honor' through the internet. the closest thing that links the internet to me is my i.p address which can also change if i want it to. therefore in the internet i dont 'exist' except as a transient being somewhat like a ghost who can choose to do or be whatever i want. you people need to see this and stop trying to get people to act 'honorably.' if you want 'honor' then set up a server and make the rules there and then enforce those rules. dont go into other people's servers or public servers and try to make others conform to your ideals. that's like walking into someone's house and telling them to act a certain way or like walking into a restaurant and demanding that another patron serve you. if you dont like the way a server is run then get out. im sure they dont like you complaining and taking up their slots just like you dont enjoy their style of play. the moral of this post? just play the damn game and stop bitching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryudom Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 haha i didn't even notice the rocket went twice as fast theres another huge advantage to the technic that wasn't mentioned as well though ; ) i love that bug hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dev-Zach Posted February 3, 2003 Author Share Posted February 3, 2003 Originally posted by Moradivh I'm not trying to get into a flame war. I like Nutri alot, he's got mucho skill (enough to beat one of DSBR's strongest teams recently with his own clan, if I recall correctly) false. his team beat DSbr's WORST lineup when we had ****ty rusted playing for us. His team of toosexy(fury), ajax(ringer), and faith(nutri) just recently lost to DSbr STARTERS (matt, meta, narbes) in xtgl. considering dsbr doesnt really play jk2 at all anymore as opposed to /2ise playing 24/7, this is quite a good accomplishment. still the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffeh Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 I like /2ise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 feel the love! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfErnO Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ please die or something Wall-Gliding is a BUG, not an exploit, it has very little actual benefit in a game, except occasionally saving your ass from a fall. It also makes the game more fun, something which Raven have a lot to learn about, anyone who objects to bugs that make a game mofr enjoyable just has the wrong attitude. Also note that many of those clips are from waaaay back when JK2 had only just been released. Also, circle strafe jumping is an exploit, if not cheating. It should be taken out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfErnO Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Originally posted by GEEZus I SAW SOMEONE CHEATING IN A SERVER RP! GO POLICE IT AND SHOW THEM UP!!! COG ALERT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 circle/strafe jumping has been around since the original Quake, how can it be a cheat when its a skill in its own right? By my definition a cheat is something which gives an unfair advantage, circle/strafe jumping is a skill, any advantage gained is well earnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfErnO Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ circle/strafe jumping has been around since the original Quake, how can it be a cheat when its a skill in its own right? By my definition a cheat is something which gives an unfair advantage, circle/strafe jumping is a skill, any advantage gained is well earnt. It was always considered as bug. Carmack wanted to remove it in q3, but the community didn't agree as far as I know. ( for my previous post) hope this helps you to understand the seriousness of my messages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Hmm, on a tangent, there are some interesting issues with developer involvement that this thread has raised, primarily by Luc and Det: Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ: By my definition a cheat is something which gives an unfair advantage, In my opinion, that definition doesn't work too well. Because who's to say what's "unfair"? Some people would say that skill gives an unfair advantage. To some, a low ping gives someone an unfair advantage. My definitions: Cheating is the alteration of game engine components by recoding of those components, or the addition of external programs, (such as external client hooks) to supply an advantage that one cannot obtain solely from the game software that comes on the game CD. Bugs are aspects of the game that do not operate as the developers intended. But not all bugs are bad, rocket jumping was a bug, in Quake 1. It spawned whole new dimensions of play, GOOD dimensions. Exploitation of bugs is using any and all bugs to your advantage in a game. Now, some bug exploits may be dishonourable, e.g. Supergrip in JK1, Invis-model in JO 1.02. But they still aren't cheats. *** I have never self-killed in CTF. Not because I think it's "cheating" but because I don't like it. It was a personal choice, and while I've never needed it, I've also never ever whined about someone else doing it, because once you force your personal opinions onto others, you're nothing but a childish fascist. It's up to developers to decide whether to "fix" bugs or not, depending on their evaluation of whether they drastically imbalance the intended gameplay they envisioned. But it's important that developers not alter gameplay at all, in any patches, unless there's a huge, and I mean HUGE imbalance that's obvious to everyone... For example, Quake's rocket launcher was clearly the most powerful weapon. It was the focus of the game. And the Surge powerups in JK1 were so powerful that they became the focus of all Full Force games. Some may say that these were imbalances. But they WERE NOT problems. They weren't something that needed to be fixed. There will ALWAYS be moves that convey advantages, there will ALWAYs be weapons more powerful than other weapons. You can never EVER patch a game enough to alter that reality, and if you try, you'll probably ruin it. Here's an exception, to highlight my distinction between that which needs to be fixed and that which doesn't: The supershield powerup in JK1 conveyed total invulnerability for thirty seconds. It also respawned after thirty seconds if correctly picked up. Since the first person to get to it usually remained invulnerable for 100% of the subsequent game, the SS should have been scrapped. *** There are ways developers can make games to avoid making the same mistakes as Raven, so this goes out to any established, or budding game-makers out there: 1. Have a really, REALLY good idea of what gameplay dynamic you're aiming for before beta-testing begins. Make sure you don't make any mistakes prior to release, and you won't have to fix them afterwards. 2. Stick to that idea. 3. Fix bugs, not gameplay. 4. Don't assume that the hordes of fans who are e-mailing you with dire predictions for the game's future unless gameplay changes are made, know what the hell they're talking about. Majority does not make right. Be cautious about any decision you make that could have any effect on gameplay. 5. If gameplay changes are ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL, add things to the game. Power up weapons, make powers more devastating, but don't nerf. 6. Wait at least six months post-release before working on a gameplay-altering patch. At least you'll have a better idea of what the game's all about by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RpTheHotrod Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Might want to read what I said I said skill...meaning effort...in other words, you can replace the word skill with effort In games, there normally is no such thing as skill. Clikc a button, get a kill...not really skill. Now, aiming at the right place at the right time and stuff may take some skill, but it takes alot more effort than just shooting area of effect attacks. Yeah Geezus, I saw that guy. Using invisible saber exploit, of coarse, he got banned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff 42 Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 In games, there normally is no such thing as skill. So, what's the difference between someone who always finishes at or near the top of scoreboards and someone who always finishes at or near the bottom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:Silver:. Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 You just can't beat Nutri's bouncing bowcaster shots. Those people wanting others to quit voicing their opinions need to crawl back under their beds and continue rotting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Spider, the rocket glitch requires LESS skill to use successfully than the regular homing rocket, as a result I perceive it to be an unfair advantage: - 1 rocket instead of 2 (can use twice as often) - rocket moves twice as fast - maintain the lock even if you look away (like supergrip in JK) - rocket has twice as much rotation ability - easy to script it so you use it instead of the regular homing shot every time As for ping, I alternate between 56k and broadband every few weeks, and I still don't perceive a low ping as an unfair advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryudom Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 heh you missed a big point about that rocket trick det ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dev-Zach Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 Originally posted by InfErnO It was always considered as bug. Carmack wanted to remove it in q3, but the community didn't agree as far as I know. ( for my previous post) hope this helps you to understand the seriousness of my messages. actually, it was a bug in the earlier quake series but was INTENTIONALY coded into q3 because quake fans loved it. thus it was intentionaly put in jk2 and is not an exploit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dev-Zach Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 Originally posted by RpTheHotrod In games, there normally is no such thing as skill. Clikc a button, get a kill...not really skill. lol? how clueless can you get. goplay ra3, an aim dependant game and try to make that statment again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ: Spider, the rocket glitch requires LESS skill to use successfully than the regular homing rocket, as a result I perceive it to be an unfair advantage: Oh, I agree that it's unfair. But just because we both think it's unfair, doesn't make it cheating. Bug? Yes. But bugs aren't cheats. We have to draw the line somewhere, and when we do, we have to stick to it. Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ: As for ping, I alternate between 56k and broadband every few weeks, and I still don't perceive a low ping as an unfair advantage. You may not think so. I may not think so. But many think so. That is why "things that are unfair" is not a good definition of cheating. Because "unfairness" is not a universal concept. It means different things to different people. I've thought long and hard for the past four years about what makes a cheat a cheat, and the definition I put down above is the closest I've found to a universally acceptable concept. If it comes unaltered with the game, it's not a cheat. And a bug is a bug, good or bad, only when the developers didn't intend for it to be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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