emiliojap Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 To examine the future of religion as it relates to society, one must first have an idea of the tenets and beliefs on which the religion is based. Jediism is based solely on belief in the 'force', a 'Universal energy field that surrounds us and permeates us'. (O. Kenobi, SW) Stark and Bainbridge make the point that any religion based on magic or magic-like rituals is fated to die out unless the magic can work constantly and consistently. This, they argue, is why many religions change from promising magic, which is quite verifiable (Did he, in fact, levitate?) to promising compensators, a sort of unverifiable magic. A good example of this is the Christian Heaven. Stark and Bainbridge take it as a given, however, that magic, or abilities that parallel magic, do not, in fact, exist. This makes an attempt to theorize about the future of Jediism more difficult, since the religion is based, in part, on the belief that oneness with the 'force' has the ability to confer extraordinary powers to individuals-- a belief than is vindicated numerous times throughout the series. The internal organization of the religion is, apparently, entirely nonexistant. There is no leader, nor is there any defined structure. Much like classical Taoism, various masters exist, and students and supplicants must seek out a master on their own in order to learn. There is no hierarchy to advance in, other than the ability to eventually hone one's faith to a degree that one can take on one's own students. The test of this is whether the student becomes attached to the 'dark side' of the 'force', as did Obi-Wan Kenobi's first pupil, Anakin Skywalker, later known as Darth Vader. The beliefs of Jediism, again, can be compared to classical Taoism. The 'true' Jedi believes in calm, and strives to maintain calm at all times. He can experience emotions, but he does not let his emotions control him. He is at one with his environment at all times. He is fully aware of the existance of all those around him, and holds free will as one of his highest ideals. He is not violent, but, if necessary, can fight extremely well and end conflicts rather quickly. His ultimate goal is universal peace. Jediism is unique, however, in that along with it developed a mirror religion, one that I will call, for lack of a better term, Dark Jediism. The tenets of Dark Jediism are all based on personal desires. To the Dark Jedi, other people are nothing but pawns with which to attain more personal power or resources. Peace is the defense of weaklings who don't know how to fulfill their desires. The ultimate goal of the Dark Jedi is to have complete and total control over the universe. This state, with the two sides of the 'force' existant and constantly at war, might be compared to a somewhat reified form of Zoroastrianism, in which the two universal natures (Good and Evil) not only existed, but were constantly being supported and battled over by their adherents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiedo Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Umm...interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Gaarni Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Good read, wrong forum. *yoink* Welcome to the SWGalaxies.Net Forum!!! I'm Jan Gaarni, XO of the Official Welcomming Committee and, apperantly, Moderator of this place now. Be sure to check out the Read This First thread at the top of this forum, as it contains some guidelines on how to behave, if you haven't all ready. Most here are friendly and the aggression level is far from what you will find in the Official SWG Boards, so I'm sure you will like it here. Please feel free to stay as long as you want. And have some chocolate covered gnorts. Complementary Juztyn. Also be sure to check out the SWGalaxies.Net site which is connected to these forums. We hope you enjoy your stay here on the SWGalaxies.Net Forums. As I said, good read. I was rather undecided if it belonged in the Gen Forum or not at first glanse. It does contain some great info on how those who wish to actually roleplay a Jedi or Dark Jedi in-game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emiliojap Posted February 10, 2003 Author Share Posted February 10, 2003 Thanks Jan Gaarni, just using my imagination I'll will write later about their society Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setsuko Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Interesting post, and much of it is true, but at some points I can't agree. First, there is indeed a hierarchy in 'Jediism', especially in classic jediism. We have a central council, who sends envoys and decide on matters of politics and apprenticeships, as vitnessed in Episode 1. Also, the padawan-knight-master system is as clear as a hierarchy can be. My other disagreement is the close tie to daoism (a.k.a taoism). Sure, in many ways they overlap, and George Lucas admits that daoism was one major inspiration, but I'd rather focus on its ties with shamanism. Firstly, daoism is less elitistic: it's teachings is for everyone, and koans (short stories acting as daoistic lectures) are often about everymans activities, even to the length of rather siding with farmers than lords. However, jediism isn't for everyone, you have to be 'chosen', which makes it a closer link to shamanism. Here, the 'chosen of the gods/nature forces/midiclorians' can do miracles, yet common men can't. You have, as said, a focus in the religion on miracles (force powers), which is common in shamanism but doesn't even exist in daoism. 'The dark side', while really not existing in daoism, is common in shamanism, with evil shamans vs good shamans being a common motífe. Also, shamanism commonly give the channelers, the shamans/jedi, much respect and fear. However, great daoists are seldom people who demands respect, and especially not fear. What? Doesn't daoism have a dark side? What about yin and jang? These are opposite forces, the male and the female, hard and soft. Yet, they are not given good or evil properties, they are just opposites. So basically, jediism is easier to describe as a shamanism than a daoistic subreligion, since the connection with a good side and a bad side isn't as complicated to describe. But if we go on to analyze this jediism, we're more likely to end up with a description like "a shamanistic religion with heavy influences from the daoistic school of thought, moral ideas taken from christianity, and a spirituality inspired from hinduism". Wanna make a try? [EDIT]Oh, just realized one good argument for your daoistic interpretation: fatalism is a cornerstone of daoism, while it is less common in most forms of shamanism, if you disregard astrology, tarot and such mish-mash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emiliojap Posted February 11, 2003 Author Share Posted February 11, 2003 Good point setsuko, you sure know your stuff hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deft Aklin Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Set, of course I had to put in my two cents. Anyway, you made improper reference to Yin and Yang. According to the Buddhist principle of Non-duality, Yin and Yang are a representation of the intertwining of the two. Basically, there is no good, there is no evil, there is only gray, for everything contains, at least to some extent, a little of both. IE. Anakin, Luke, Mara Jade. They all switched sides because they were not good nor evil, but a part of the ebb and flow of the universe. I am sure I am describing this incorrectly or confusingly and will reference some Christmas Humphries a little later to clarify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrackan Solo Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Im sorry to say this but Star Wars was made by GL the "force" was made by GL and Jediism isnt real. Star Wars is great readiing,movies,games,etc. but you cant actually believe in this. Can you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounty Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 On the contrary, Jediism is very real. Else how would I be levitating my R2 unit now? Seriously, though, they were just having a bit of fun analyzing this fictitious religion and comparing it to the real world. And I can't help but add some things. I agree more with emilio than with setsuko, in that Jediism is more like taoism. You don't really have to be chosen, you must simply have the innate ability to reach out to the force. Most people will go along a force-guided path with training or without. The same is very true of taoism. It's not for everyone; in fact, it's not for most people. Taoism is very hard to master and very hard to stay faithful to, because of the innate selfishness of human beings. Also, Jedism is more similar to taoism because it involves the state of mind rather than complex rituals and spells, like shamanism. The dark side (imo) is George Lucas's way of showing us the difficulties inherent in Jediism, mainly because of the aforesaid innate selfishness of humans. There are a few exceptions the this instinct, but by few I mean a very few. Most people, when given the choice between serving in Heaven and ruling in Hell, will pick ruling in Hell, to use a cliche. More to the point (and another cliche), absolute power corrupts absolutely. If taoism granted special powers besides self-control to its disciples, then I suspect we would see many more prospective taoists, and many former taoists that have fallen to the "dark side". I've just been rambling, but all I wanted to get across is that Jediism seems more like taoism because it involves self-control on a high level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setsuko Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Good points, everyobody. Yes, Jediism doesn't exist in real life (if you are not living in Great Brittain, as witnessed in a prior thread!), but these things are fun practise for your mind. And your mind needs as much exercise as your muscles, so turn of your TV and start thinking! On YinYang, and D_S's remark: the problem with this, is that there are a lot of schools of buddhism, each implying it's own ideas on how the universe works. Since they posted daoism as the buddhism most alike to jediism, I'll use their most prevalent ideas. However, daoism is very different from most other kinds of buddhism I'm encountered: while other buddhistic faiths believe in maintaining balance between yinyang, (the most obvious example being Feng Shui, a shinto buddhistic method, daoism doesn't include it's practicioners to try to attempt to meddle in those matters: just keep a calm mind, and everything will float and follow the road (dao) that it's meant to follow. Trouble appears only when you try to force your will on these energies: this is bad ****, and will only end up in a mess. This is the prime evidence that the great daoist philosophers were the coolest guys ever, since the realized that the best way to live life was to lay back under a blossom tree and relax. The jedi, on the contrary, doesn't kick back and have a beer whenever trouble's a-brewing. So I'd rather say that your application of the yinyang view of the world would rather point to other kinds of buddhism. Many stories in both the movies (yoda) and the EU describes great jedi settling on planets steaming with the dark side, to "even things out". This, in a daoistic ideal, is stupid, and will lead to problem: the "dark side" (which doesn' t at all exist in daoism, as I pointed out before, but I'll go with your example right now) is there for a reason: to meddle with it will be disaster. So no, the jedi mentality as knights and peacemakers are way, way too nosy to be close to daoism. Buddhistic ideals? Hell yeah! But daoistic? Don't think so. Hey, a great debate, with very good arguments from both sides. Keep up the good work! Ooooh! More points why jediism is more like buddhism than daoism: the force has a habit of being inherited. As father, as son. The entire Skywalker family had it. Now, the traditional caste system of especially the Indian buddhistic faiths are inherited, but daoism doesn't bother with those silly ideas, since there's no caste system in Chinese buddhism! Hah! (that's about Bounty's post that jediism isn't inherited. It is! Han Solo would never be able to move a pin with the force, while it's a family heirloom if you have a mighty jedi forebearer.) [EDIT] And on the darkside being the selfishness in men etc: yes it's true, and I totaly agree. But daoism isn't about that, it's about following the dao meant for you, and letting everything around you follow theirs. After all, this demiurge vs satan idea (a.k.a good vs evil) is a very western approach to theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Gaarni Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Uuu, strike 2 from Set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setsuko Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Just for fun, on or off thread? It's up to you... link: What the yinyang really is. Since I am not always as good at describing things as others, I'll use a 'quote post' to further describe what I see is the great shism between jediism and daoism, making them totally different: that of the western ideas of morality (these are bolded). I included some other quotes as well. Mostly to confuse the readers. Quotes from books about daoism: "Weapons are tools of destruction hated by the people, and followers of the way never use them." "Those who try to take over the world do not succeed; tampering with it spoils it, and seizing it loses it. Lao-zi opposed conquest by force of arms, because it rebounds. When armies march, scarcity and famine follow. The skillful achieve their purposes and stop without relying on violence, which is contrary to the way." "Lao-zi suggested abandoning religion and cleverness, humanity and morality, skill and profit, and recommended instead simplicity, the natural, controlling selfishness, and reducing desires." (Lao-zi is the first founder of daoism) Quotes from Dao De Jing, the "bible of daoism", written by Lao-zi. This is the 'real deal': "Do not interfere, and people transform themselves. Love peace, and people do what is right. Do not intervene, and people prosper. Have no desires, and people live simply. The most effective course of action is always... to do nothing! Slaughter the talented And everybody will benefit. [19] Wisdom is the understanding that knowledge is useless. The failure to understand that knowledge is useless is sickness. [71] Honor and disgrace are each to be avoided Good fortune and disaster are identical. [13] All that is best can be seen to be like water. Water benefits everything and yet exerts no effort. Water finds the lowest places, shunned by all. In this water is the closest to the Great Way. [8] (adressed to the Emperor himself!): To end strife ignore the talented. Encourage ignorance so the shrewd will be impotent. [3] When everyone is agreed on what is beautiful, All have determined what is ugly. [2] Wherever the Way is cherished, Horses pull ploughs and their dung fertilizes crops. Wherever the Way is abandoned, Horses pull cannons and their dung messes streets. [46] and one of my favourites... Were the clever to be slaughtered, all would benefit! Were goodness renounced, kindness would emerge. Were wealth scorned, thieves would repent. Talent, goodness and wealth are false values. What is needed in their place are Simplicity, integrity And the knowledge of enough. [19] As you see by these quotes, daoism is far more alien to the western way of thinking than jediism is. While there certainly are many peripherals that they have in common, the core has as much in common as apples and water coolant systems. Daoism is as close to a "slacker religion" as you get! (or, in a lot of ways, a socialistic view of life not built on wealth, prestige and status, since these values are aquired on someone elses expense.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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