Lime-Light Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I know there doesnt need to be another religion thread, but I could find anywhere where i could fit this in. I'm going to look at religion in another way. Not as a belief system, or a club, but as an organism. What is an organisms goal? One, to survive, two, to expand and grow in numbers. If you look at religion in this way, you see that many of its rules and practices are there simply to ensure its further existence. You're going to eternal fiery torture if you dont believe in christianity. You go live in a wonderful place of peace and love with the supreme being if you believe. Sign me up! Take a look at buddhism for instance. Life is hell, you need nothing but to meditate and achieve zen so you can leave, instead of being reincarnated back to this hell. I dont understand what the positive result of sitting around trying to escape life is, but you certianly practice your religion if you want to be one with the universe, and so the religion survives. Religions began as a primitive way to explian the occurences around man kind. Now they have evovled into a power struggle of who can obtian the most believers and finaly "enlighten" everyone over to thier side, with the exception of the extremists, who simply tries to erradicate the other side out of disgust. What troubles me about this great war between beliefs, is what progress can be made? With the Christians bidding thier time untill they can be with god, the buddhists siting on thier asses meditating and the fundamentalists killing folks, were does man kind as a whole go? Nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Should I go off and make 15 threads about how atheists and their beliefs are stupid or ignorant? I could but I don't. And yet another religion thread pops up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__CKY__ Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Hmm a view from me is Priests of hippocratic love talk of peace and christ Power is their only goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lime-Light Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast Should I go off and make 15 threads about how atheists and their beliefs are stupid or ignorant? I could but I don't. And yet another religion thread pops up... Go ahead, all you have in your defence is a book written thousands of years ago by ignorant men and translated by power seekers. And you'd miss the whole point in the process, I'm not even talking about christianity in particular, Im talking about the existence of religion as a direct consequence of ignorance and the feverish defense of it because its old and therefore "important". And you dont see athiests knocking on your door telling you youre going to burn for eternity unless you believe what they do. I certianly dont push my beliefs on someone, or even tell them what they are, partly out of fear. There is only one minority in America that is unprotected by laws or its constitution (the document yes, its enforcers, no). I dont have to tell which one it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 You know, you have your beliefs, we have ours, simple as that. I think it silly that a LOT of atheists hate the way religion tries to push itself on people, but ahteists are THE worst about trying to belittle religion and get people who are religious to be like them. A CRY OF HIPPOCRACY ON ALL OF YOU! Well, just the ones who are trying to impose their beliefs on me....... At least when religions try to push themselves onto you they have a noble goal, they believe that they are going to save your sould from eternal damnation. Atheists are simply trying to show us how smart and superior they are to us because they don't believe in God. What troubles me about this great war between beliefs, is what progress can be made? With the Christians bidding thier time untill they can be with god, the buddhists siting on thier asses meditating and the fundamentalists killing folks, were does man kind as a whole go? Nowhere. And where WOULD man kind as a whole go without the religion? The answer.....To Hell (Silently laughing at my joke) But seriously, i'd like to know what I would do differently if I didn't believe in God, besides the free hour on sundays and the times i pray. I'd still be nice to people, i'd still be learning in school, i'd still go to college, still learn things, still get a job....hmmmm, I'm not in a rush to die and be with God, I have eternity to do that once I die. NOTE, i do not hate atheists, I am glad you are happy with your views, i have atheist friends, and I like them just as much as my christian, muslim, and jewish friends. I only dont like the atheists who are ALWAYS at the throat of my religion. Just let me believe what i believe in peace, ahthankyou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Originally posted by ET Warrior You know, you have your beliefs Do I believe there is no God? Or do I not believe there is a God? I don't need beliefs to live a good life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Originally posted by ET Warrior You know, you have your beliefs, we have ours, simple as that. Wrong. Atheists, in the meaning of people without religion (buddists are also atheists, but not in the sense of this thread), have no faith, and no beliefs. Not believing in anything doesn't constitute belief. Originally posted by ET Warrior I think it silly that a LOT of atheists hate the way religion tries to push itself on people, but ahteists are THE worst about trying to belittle religion and get people who are religious to be like them. Simply not true. Jehova's Witnesses, for example. I have never heard about atheists going around trying to sell goods that have been obsolete for the past 20 centuries. Have you? The reson why atheists can be viewed as bashing religion is that quite plainly most religious doctrines have no place in the real world. Keeping milk and vegetables from each other, no sex before marriage, creationism, ect. are all examples of religion being obsolete and utterly useless. But, I hear you cry, what about all the places where religion is right: Don't steal, don't kill, ect.? But the fact is that those norms would also be present in an unreligious society, because every society will desire some measure of stability. What we would see in a faithless society would be abolishment of all those silly norms that are hopelessly outdated. Originally posted by ET Warrior A CRY OF HIPPOCRACY ON ALL OF YOU! Well, just the ones who are trying to impose their beliefs on me....... No atheist (in the sense of this thread) is trying to push any beliefs on you. Originally posted by ET Warrior At least when religions try to push themselves onto you they have a noble goal, they believe that they are going to save your sould from eternal damnation. Atheists are simply trying to show us how smart and superior they are to us because they don't believe in God. Atheists who try to cure you of your religious beliefs have the noble goal of improving the world. Religion has never produced anything of any value, rationalism (and therefore by extention, atheism) has. And by the way, if by "trying to show you how smart they are" you mean that they correct any utterly unphysical nonsense (such as the flood myth) that they come across, then you are way off. They aren't trying to show how smart they are (OK, some are, but the vast majority is not), they are trying to make you realise that all those things you "knew" about the world (such as thermo's second law, the magnetic field decay) are pathetically wrong, in order to get you to rethink your world veiw. Originally posted by ET Warrior And where WOULD man kind as a whole go without the religion? To conquer the galaxy. Originally posted by ET Warrior I only dont like the atheists who are ALWAYS at the throat of my religion. Just let me believe what i believe in peace, ahthankyou. And I don't like those religious people who refuse to accept that their religion has never done anything good for anybody... Or rather I find it an extremely hypocritical veiw, but that doesn't mean that I can't like the person in question. In short: I'm not asking you to believe what I say. I'm just asking you to think. I'm asking you to think without prejudice. I'm asking you to look out of your window and not overlaying everything with God... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Shadow and C'jais, do you accept as true or real that there is no God? Then you believe in something. Don't think that the word believe applies only to people who worship God... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandalorian54 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 It's interesting what athiests think of religion. like it's some scary threat to thier existence. and what they think we think. I don't know how you get some of those ideas in your head, mabee you know a religiouse person or two, but you should assume they'r all the same. were not a plague or a viruse, If you knew of somthing no one else did wouldn't you tell anyone? I as a christian am not trying to over populate other religions, that's up to GOD. I'm just warning people of the wrath to come if they don't repent of the wrong things they do. It's not a compatition. buddhism isn't escaping life, your thinking about alchohol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lime-Light Posted February 14, 2003 Author Share Posted February 14, 2003 Stimulating points, everyone. One thing I want to get across is that I'm NOT saying I'm right. I'm saying organised religion to me seems little more than a club with thousand year old rules. I personaly cannot disprove the existence of god. Of course not. I dont know everything, nor do I claim to, but I can't accept what organised religions cliam as truth. It's too illogical and full of holes. I dont really think humans are ready for our future. I dont think we live up to the challenge of being a united force that could solve the mysteries of existance. Our nature is to know why, but we hold on to antiquated beliefs, taking the easy way out instead of searching for the real truths. We've aparently "solved" the universe with this magical diety that takes care of everything for us, so what's there left to know? There's nothing left to strive for, if the big question is already solved. Thats what I call going nowhere. We've nothing to do but go extinct if we're willing to accept what we're told, in some sick, retarding tradition. I'm a giant pot of apathy and dislike for most poeple. Maybe religion would change that, but I refuse to be belittled by it just so I can tell myself it'll all be ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Originally posted by C'jais Do I believe there is no God? Or do I not believe there is a God? ToMAYto ToMAHto i was simply making my point. So you don't believe in ANYTHING? You believe in SOMETHING, like, you believe in evolution methinks, if not, you probably believe in physics.....so HA! And to shadow, your post is exactly the thing that bothers me th emost about atheists. They just can't seem to accept that not everyone wants to be an atheist like them. I accept that you are not a christian....... In short: I'm not asking you to believe what I say. I'm just asking you to think. I'm asking you to think without prejudice. I'm asking you to look out of your window and not overlaying everything with God... But how can I when i can look outside and SEE the brilliance of God all around me? He's everywhere and in everything. You can yell at me that there is no God until you're blue in the face and I'm not going to believe you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Q: How can you tell when someone is wrong? A: When they try to suppress you from gaining knowledge. When they try to hinder research. When they restrain freedom of speech and resort to censoring. If you knew Dublin is in Ireland, would you do everything in your power to stop people from trying to prove you wrong? There would be no need for that 'cause you're right. The more people do research on the subject, the more it strenghtens your position. To those who are now wondering what the hell I'm talking about and why I posted here >>> A: Just felt like sharing my wisdom randomly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast Shadow and C'jais, do you accept as true or real that there is no God? No, we don't accept as true or real anything. The keyword here is accept. This means that we only include something in our world veiw if it can be documented to such a degree that we don't need to accept it, because we know for a fact that it is so. But how can I when i can look outside and SEE the brilliance of God all around me? He's everywhere and in everything. You can yell at me that there is no God until you're blue in the face and I'm not going to believe you. Show me this god of yours... You see him because you want to. If you saw him because he was there then I would be able to see him too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Originally posted by ShadowTemplar No, we don't accept as true or real anything. The keyword here is accept. This means that we only include something in our world veiw if it can be documented to such a degree that we don't need to accept it, because we know for a fact that it is so. I could say the same thing for God. I could say that I know for a fact that he exists because of the Bible but then you would come out and say that the Bible is a bunch of hogwash so its a never-ending circle. Originally posted by ShadowTemplar Show me this god of yours... You see him because you want to. If you saw him because he was there then I would be able to see him too. Its called faith. You guys don't seem to get it that we Christians believe by faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Originally posted by ET Warrior ToMAYto ToMAHto i was simply making my point. So you don't believe in ANYTHING? You believe in SOMETHING, like, you believe in evolution methinks, if not, you probably believe in physics.....so HA! You didn't get the subtle distinction between believing there is no god and not believing there is a god. Lack of belief can never, ever constitute having a belief. Not believing is that - not believing. And no, you cannot believe in fact. You can't believe in the theory of gravity. But how can I when i can look outside and SEE the brilliance of God all around me? He's everywhere and in everything. Sorry, that's not evidence of anything. You're the one making the connection between nature and God. By the same non-reasoning, I could connect nature to the fan in my PC, Cthulhu, or my grandmother. It doesn't work. You can yell at me that there is no God until you're blue in the face and I'm not going to believe you. That's not what we're saying. There might be gods around us, but so far they haven't made their presence known, making believing in them an illogical step taken too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast I could say the same thing for God. I could say that I know for a fact that he exists because of the Bible but then you would come out and say that the Bible is a bunch of hogwash so its a never-ending circle. Words alone cannot manifest a god, or make him real in any way. By the same non-reasoning, countless gods have been created merely by writing a few lines in a book, and subsequently "forgetting" to prove them. Its called faith. You guys don't seem to get it that we Christians believe by faith. Ahh. So, since you have now accepted that God isn't fact, you've also accepted that he is a purely subjective opinion originating from you. There is no middle ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 I think.... to have faith.... you have to stop thinking and reasoning for a minute and just believe. You dont need any evidence for it, you just DO believe. You suspend all reason, logic, judgement, and physical observations in favor of simply believing. I'm sorry, I cant do that. I cant suspend my reason and judgement and logic, because they are a part of me. I cant live my life according to an unseen deity who may or may not exist, as well as by thousands year old book that may or may not be legit. My life is too important to me, and I'm not going to waste it away on a maybe. But how can I when i can look outside and SEE the brilliance of God all around me? He's everywhere and in everything. I look outside and I see a tree. The wind is blowing, northeast, at around 15 mph. The wind is caused by varying degrees in airpressure, as well as cool air rising off the Great Lakes and coming across NY to the coast. It's deflected up the coast by the warmer air circulated up from the carribean. I dont see the brilliance of god in this, because there are so many other more reasonable, logical, tangible, REAL explanations for all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lime-Light Posted February 15, 2003 Author Share Posted February 15, 2003 There is no possible way to prove the existence of god. You can simply choose to accept and swallow. The human need to be part of something and be important is what keeps god alive in the minds of believers. You're part of a special club where an all powerful deity acknowlegdes your existence and whom you can turn to for a feigned comfort. The fact that it delivers you from all requirement of objectivity or reason is a plus. Its easy. The existence of religion can be explianed by known and proven social and phsycological trends. It's teachings can be better explianed by new verifyable theories. Yet, if poeple are around long enough, I imagine we'll find out the truth, followed by a very large "I ****ING TOLD YOU SO". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pnut_Man Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 I'm personally disgusted with how you guys treat each in these "religion threads". I for one think they should be banned from the senate chambers.. If you have a religion then that's great, it also means you don't need to talk about here on the internet.. (there are reasons for community churches). If you don't have a religion that's great as well. Just don't go bashing Christians or any other religious group just because you think you have proof and facts. From where everyone is right now no one has facts, everything is just theory upon theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psydan Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Originally posted by Lime-Light I know there doesnt need to be another religion thread, but I could find anywhere where i could fit this in. I'm going to look at religion in another way. Not as a belief system, or a club, but as an organism. What is an organisms goal? One, to survive, two, to expand and grow in numbers. If you look at religion in this way, you see that many of its rules and practices are there simply to ensure its further existence. You're going to eternal fiery torture if you dont believe in christianity. You go live in a wonderful place of peace and love with the supreme being if you believe. Sign me up! Take a look at buddhism for instance. Life is hell, you need nothing but to meditate and achieve zen so you can leave, instead of being reincarnated back to this hell. I dont understand what the positive result of sitting around trying to escape life is, but you certianly practice your religion if you want to be one with the universe, and so the religion survives. Religions began as a primitive way to explian the occurences around man kind. Now they have evovled into a power struggle of who can obtian the most believers and finaly "enlighten" everyone over to thier side, with the exception of the extremists, who simply tries to erradicate the other side out of disgust. What troubles me about this great war between beliefs, is what progress can be made? With the Christians bidding thier time untill they can be with god, the buddhists siting on thier asses meditating and the fundamentalists killing folks, were does man kind as a whole go? Nowhere. Yah, you could look at it that way, but why would a religion want more believers? Well in Christianity it would be to save your soul from eternal torture, but I guess you could go on believing its all just a game, and that we're just trying to get the most followers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Pnut_Master If you have a religion then that's great, it also means you don't need to talk about here on the internet.. (there are reasons for community churches). If you don't have a religion that's great as well. Just don't go bashing Christians or any other religious group just because you think you have proof and facts. From where everyone is right now no one has facts, everything is just theory upon theory. Ahhhhhh, that is exactly what I'm trying to say. I dont want to debate about religion. I dont want to have you knock my religion, and me defend it, while i CANT defend it because there must be faith to believe and since you guys don't have it you won't get it. And i'm HAPPY for you, that you are happy living your life the way you want to. So why can't I live my life the way I want to without you ragging on me/my religion? There is no possible way to prove the existence of god There is no possible way to prove the non-existence of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast I could say the same thing for God. I could say that I know for a fact that he exists because of the Bible but then you would come out and say that the Bible is a bunch of hogwash so its a never-ending circle. No I would say that that's circular reasoning. Originally posted by Reborn Outcast Its called faith. You guys don't seem to get it that we Christians believe by faith. We do. That's what make your belief inferior to our knowledge. I think.... to have faith.... you have to stop thinking and reasoning for a minute and just believe. You dont need any evidence for it, you just DO believe. You suspend all reason, logic, judgement, and physical observations in favor of simply believing. And then you can start crashing planes into buildings. While I realise that far from all religious people do so the mindset that drive religious zeal and fundamentalist suicide bombings are the same, only on different levels. I'm sorry, I cant do that. I cant suspend my reason and judgement and logic, because they are a part of me. I cant live my life according to an unseen deity who may or may not exist, as well as by thousands year old book that may or may not be legit. My life is too important to me, and I'm not going to waste it away on a maybe. "I believe in life before death." I can't remember who said that, but he was sooo right. I look outside and I see a tree. The wind is blowing, northeast, at around 15 mph. The wind is caused by varying degrees in airpressure, as well as cool air rising off the Great Lakes and coming across NY to the coast. It's deflected up the coast by the warmer air circulated up from the carribean. I dont see the brilliance of god in this, because there are so many other more reasonable, logical, tangible, REAL explanations for all of this. LOL. Right in one. I'm personally disgusted with how you guys treat each in these "religion threads". I for one think they should be banned from the senate chambers.. Fine by me, if you in the same action, ban religious 'reasoning' from the Chambers. But you can't enforce that, and so we Free Thinkers have to have a way to point out the vast and numerous holes in this so-called 'reasoning'. If you have a religion then that's great, it also means you don't need to talk about here on the internet.. (there are reasons for community churches). And for those who wish to broaden their mind by speaking with someone who isn't from his community about something that matters to him? If you don't have a religion that's great as well. Just don't go bashing Christians or any other religious group just because you think you have proof and facts. From where everyone is right now no one has facts, everything is just theory upon theory. We have both proof and fact. Furthermore, science has produced the technology that you are using right now in defiance of religion, not supported by it, and religion has caused genocides on a massive scale which science has not. Therefore, religion should be abolished for its uselesness and harmfulness, whereas science should be promoted for its usefulness and mindbroadening effect. Yah, you could look at it that way, but why would a religion want more believers? Well in Christianity it would be to save your soul from eternal torture, but I guess you could go on believing its all just a game, and that we're just trying to get the most followers... Look at it this way: Religion is a subjectively governed organisation. Since its laws are subjective, you need someone to interpret those laws. He will have a mandate that trancends logic, because if you start using logic for or agains their rulings, then you are making your decision based on what is the most objectively rational thing to do, not what is the most subjectively just thing to do. This means that there will, no matter how you initially choose who are to govern, in time be established an 'aristocracy of belief', that dictate how people are to think on the subjects that belong in their area of jurisdiction. Since they are also human, they will seek to increase their own power and status, by broadening the area of jurisdiction until it is all-encompassing. At this stage the only way to increase their power will be by getting more people under their sway. All current religions (save the animistic and shamanistic) have reached this stage. Therefore the thread starter was perfectly sound reasoning. So why can't I live my life the way I want to without you ragging on me/my religion? See the Evolution/Creation thread for a gruesome example of what religion does to your mind. Then read up on the history of Europe (or for that matter America), to see what atrocities religion has promoted. Then realise that 9/11, no matter how terrifying, heaped only an infinitisimal amount of corpses on the pyre. Therefore religion cannot be allowed to run rampant. There is no possible way to prove the non-existence of God. There is no way to prove that pigs cannot fly. At best you can say that no-one has ever proved that pigs can fly. But you can't prove that it isn't possible. It seems to me that you cannot imagine the mindset of an atheist, whereas most atheists can put themselves in your stead well enough to predict your response... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by ShadowTemplar We do. That's what make your belief inferior to our knowledge. Knowledge of what? The non-existance of a God which you don't have and can't prove? One more time, religion doesn't teach science, it teaches that there is a God who watches over us and that those who belive in Him will go to Heaven. Science can never prove that there is no God nor can it prove that there is one. That is why religion and science are nearly un-comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 After readin every post here, and my head about to explode, let me say this: I, for one, am a devout Christian. I believe in the Bible to it's entirety. I am guided by faith, and my wisdom, I believe, comes from God. Now, before you go saying I am a nutcase, let me explain why I believe the way I believe. I have seen things that Science cannot explain. I have felt things that science cannot explain. I have even gone so far as to prophisy(sp?) the birth of a child. One night, during service at my church, the preacher's wife was crying and nealing at the alter, and praying for something. For some reason, I got up, walked to her, touched her on the shoulder, and said: "Don't worry, sister, you will have your Baby." Surely enough, nearly three days later, she was diagnosed pregnant. Three days. how do you explain that? Was it some sort of chemical that shocked in my brain causing the world to go forward in time to show me that she was pregnant? Of course not. I belive(or I should say KNOW), that this came from God. As I said earlier, there is only one explanation for this. If I ever turned away from God after this experience, I would need the living crap beat out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast One more time, religion doesn't teach science, it teaches that there is a God who watches over us and that those who belive in Him will go to Heaven. The moment you say "there is", you enter the metier of science. Obiwan: Much as I applaud your empathy I must say that it was a fairly probable guess. If you see a girl you know put down her cell phone and start crying, for example, you will be pretty sure that it's because her boyfriend just broke with her. But that's not some godsent premonition. I'd say that your 'prophesy' was based not so much on divine inspiration as on an admirable knowledge of the human animal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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