Official SWGB 2 Game Engine thread.

[Sithmaster_821]

Yeah, but Vostok, the three "fixes" you listed under AoM, are incredibly forced and an obvious stretch.

 

As for RoN-I think that conceptually it's a good game, and the single player may be ok (depends on BHG's AI), but I forsee MAJOR imbalances on the MP level. Why? From looking at all of the civ previews, I can point out some pretty big flaws, most of which have been previously done by other developers and caused some equally prominent problems. Also, it is a prime example of realism over gameplay. If you look at the nature of most of their "innovations" they all deal with ways of making the game more realistic, usually at the expense of gameplay/balance. I have said many many times the problems with too many civs, and the problems with borders, "special" resourses, and other related Realism>Gameplay ideas that they implement have also been brought up

[Admiral Vostok]

I know my AoM fixes are forced, but my point is fixes to AoM would not be as forced as fixes to RoN.

[CorranSec]

Windu: Oh, please. If I was an unkind man I would ask you to shut the hell up. But I'm not, so I'll just tell you for what is hopefully the last time:

Do not use real-world examples in relation to SW, GB or any such thing?

SW is build on real-world combat? Then why is it that in real-world air combat, planes mostly rely on long-range missiles, while in SW they dogfight and fire their lasers? Why is it that in real-world ground combat, tanks just roll along and get blown up by other tanks, while in SW moving engines of destruction called AT-ATs get tied up by snowspeeders and slashed up by lightsabers? Why is it...... you get the point. WW2 is hugely different to SW. It is, to put it in gaming terms, 'an entirely different engine.' And there is no way that things as integral to RoN as epic-scale mode-switching and countries with borders can be incorporated into SW, and neither can they be removed without making an entirely different game.

 

AoM is much more suited, and although Vostok's fixes might seem forced, it's only natural and rather smooth to convert god powers and myth units to force powers and Jedi.

The Minor Gods could be Officers which you choose to lead your army, with their own tactics (GPs) and elite teams (MUs). Or they could be Jedi Masters with tide-turning force powers and their Jedi underlings. (not too sure about the underlings, I'd appreciate someone offering a Jedi-related MU replacement that makes sense....)

[Darth Windu]

Corran - ill give you a quick lesson on WW2.

 

1. Aircraft didnt use missiles, they had short-range guns and canon (normally 20mm) and had intense dogfights.

 

2. There were tanks used by the Germans called the Tiger and King Tiger. They were incredibly well armoured although rather slow (in one instance a single Tiger holded off an entire allied division and killing 25 allied tanks before the Tiger being killed). Due to this thick armour the easiest and best way to kill them was aircraft.

 

3. The Millenium Falcon is based on the B-26 Medium Bomber (look at the cockpit and ventral and dorsal turrets)

 

So as i said, Star Wars combat is based on WW2, as RoN has a WW2 age as part of the game, the combat would ba far, far more natural and realistic, especially when you consider AoM doesnt include armour and aircraft.

 

Anyway, as i said the best thing is for LA to make their own engine after analysing the other popular RTS engines/games and then make their own.

[CorranSec]

1. Okay, so they didn't use missiles like modern craft do (and you've used modern craft in your arguments before). But did those aircraft have shields? No. Did they have laser cannons? No. Did they have proton torpedoes? No. Did they fight capital ships? No. And, indeed, was there anything bigger than a fighter up there flying around? Unless there were some armed dirigibiles floating around, I would say no.

2. And by some amazing twist of logic, a Tiger becomes an AT-AT? No. Were they huge, lumbering beasts, which actually walked along and had a cockpit? No. Did they have lasers (or any kind of guns) mounted on the sides of this cockpit? I doubt it. Did aircraft actually fly around them, between their legs, and tie them up with cables? No.

3. The Martin B-26 Marauder (commonly known as The Flying Prostitute, for god knows what reasons) looks nothing like the Falcon. Your argument is like saying the AK-47 assault rifle was the inspiration for the Imperial blaster carbine- why, they've both got triggers! They must be the same!

The B-26 is a bomber. The Falcon is a heavily modified freighter. The B-26 drops bombs. The Falcon fires quad lasers from its two turrets. The B-26 is a Xendor-damned plane with wings and propellers, Windu..... stop kidding yourself, because you're the only one laughing.

 

Ah! RoN has a WW2 age. I have no doubt that it also has many ages that aren't WW2. So basically, you're choosing RoN as an engine simply because you (incorrectly) think one facet of it was the total inspiration of Star Wars.

When you hold it up like that, does it seem weak and insipid to anybody else?

[Admiral Vostok]

I think AoM MUs are the messiest part in turning it into a Star Wars mod, so I suggest replacing the temple with Jedi temples and instead of building MUs there you build Jedis. It's a bit boring compared all the myth units available to AoM, but following certain officers would give you unique units available from other buildings, so it makes up for it.

 

It makes sense that Jedi replace all MU, because if "Force" replaces Favor it would make sense that Jedi cost Force to buy.

 

Oh and instead of needing a temple to progress you might need a War Room or something representing the place the Officers lead from.

[Darth Windu]

Corran - how is it possible that you STILL fail to see what is right in front of your face? Of course laser's and proton torpedo's werent used in WW2, the point is the PRINCIPLES of the weapons are the same.

 

Lasers - rapid fire, inaccurate, lots of ammo

Machine Guns - rapid fire, inaccurate, lots of ammo

 

Also, bombs are used in SW and WW2, and also aircraft were fitted with Rockets which were extremely powerful (especially with the Typhoon)

 

Was there anything bigger than fighters? Yes. The B-17, B-24, B-29, Lancaster, Wellington etc were all rather large, especially when compared to fighters.

 

Did fighters attack capital ships? Yes. How do you think the super-battleship Yamato was suck? By USN aircraft. Also, at pearl harbour Japanese aircraft managed to sink several capital ships.

 

Falcon - the cokpit is that of a bomber, the only aircraft to carry dorsal and ventral turrets were BOMBERS. The falcon is very similar to the B-26.

[Guest DarthMaulUK]

If LA were to outsource the gaming engine, AoM, although looks pretty just won't work for mass battles.

 

Prehaps one of the best engines around is the Creative Assemblys Total War engine.

 

Handles mass battles, even gives units and advantage when using a hill!

 

DMUK

[swphreak]

oooh. I'll have to try thatdemo when I get home. keep the link

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Originally posted by DarthMaulUK

If LA were to outsource the gaming engine, AoM, although looks pretty just won't work for mass battles.

 

Prehaps one of the best engines around is the Creative Assemblys Total War engine.

 

Handles mass battles, even gives units and advantage when using a hill!

 

DMUK

 

Yes that is the alternative to RoN, but it needs to be changed extensivly.

[Admiral Vostok]

DMUK and others: SWGB1 wasn't about "mass battles", so neither should SWGB2. SWGB1 and AoM both have the same scale.

 

I wouldn't want the scale any larger, because the only Star Wars battle that was kind-of as large-scale as Total War was the Battle of Geonosis, and you can still have a battle of that size in AoM.

 

Star Wars has always been about personal struggles in an epic battle. Making SWGB2 a large scale game will lose the personal side of things. But making it as small scale as WC3 will lose the epic battle side. So the best scale for a Star Wars RTS is medium scale like AoM, AoK, etc. because you can have both personal and epic struggles.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - i actually i agree with you here. Although i think the vast scale of RoN is going to be great, the drawback of that is that you cant play senario's such as (in relation to SW), the attack of theed for example.

 

All LA needs to do is find a compramise, perhaps on a slightly larger scale than SWGB, which would have the added benefit of being able to have larger cities to attack

[eizo131]

I go for RoN. From what I have AoM sounds like a good idea. How bout mixing the two?

 

Real quick, the allies (WW2) DID use missiles but the were just like RPGs. No chips. No homing stuff.

[CorranSec]

I agree with Vostok. We shouldn't be looking for an epic-scale 'mass battles' game, we should be looking for a medium-scale GB2 game.

 

Windu:

Principles? Right. Well, using that amazing logic, you could indeed say the DL-44 blaster pistol is based on the AK-47 assault rifle because the principle of both is to point the hole at the baddie and pull the trigger.

Lasers- can be rapid/slow/medium fire, quite accurate, unlimited ammo

Machine guns- rapid fire, inaccurate, lots of ammo

 

As eizo said, no guided missiles/torpedoes were used in WW2.

 

I meant, was there anything of a different class than fighters- ie

medium ships that you can actually live on, capital ships that can hold thousands of people..... the obvious answer is no.

 

I was talking about airborne capital ships, which in our world do not exist.

 

The cockpit does hold a vague similarity to that of bombers such as the B-26, but even in that minor area, there are great differences- for example, the Falcon's cockpit is not rounded, but slopes down and then flattens.

 

Did these bombers have even a remotely similar design to the Falcon's- for example, did they have a flattened disk shape? No. Were their dorsal and ventral turrets even remotely similar to those of the Falcon's- for example, did they fire quad lasers? No.

[Admiral Vostok]

Corran, much of Star Wars is based on real world things, but contrary to what Windu believes it is not an exact translation, many things are very different.

 

While it's true we don't have airborne capital ships, the capital ships seen in Star Wars are in fact based on our navy ships, so Windu is correct in that regard.

 

Anyway, it really doesn't matter that RoN has WW2 stuff in it, because AoM can easily be made to use the same things. I would not say the fact that RoN has WW2 stuff in it is a deciding factor at all.

[CorranSec]

I know that it's based on some parts of the real world, but Windu's examples are just plain wrong. That's all. And, as you said, I'm merely trying to prove that the "RoN has WW2" argument is defunct.

[Admiral Vostok]

Yes. If I recall, one of the things Windu liked was that war machines had to physically turn around to go change direction (while infantry can turn on the spot). You should know, Windu, that all seige weapons in AoM have to do this too.

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Yes Vostok that may be true but that's not an arguement against RoN, is it?

 

CorranSec- In fact if u pay attention the equipment is based on WW2 (Lucas has stated himself that he based the dogfights on stuff he saw in old WW2 movies) and the storyline is based on ancient Rome.

 

Rome forms, becomes Republic- Some time thousands of years ago Galactic Republic is formed

 

Tricksy guy called Julius Ceaser gets Senate to give him almost unlimited power- Tricksy guy called Palpatine does the same

 

Ceaser tries to stop Senate- Palpatine disbands Senate.

 

Ceaser gets murdered by his most trusted friends- Palpatine gets murdered by his most trusted friend

 

Later Rome is split up, Generals are fighting each other, etc. Barbarians take Rome- Rebels take Coruscant while Imps are fighting amonst themselves.

[Darth Windu]

Originally posted by CorranSec

As eizo said, no guided missiles/torpedoes were used in WW2.

 

I meant, was there anything of a different class than fighters- ie

medium ships that you can actually live on, capital ships that can hold thousands of people..... the obvious answer is no.

 

lol, quite incorrect. I'll give you a quick weapons lesson (my speciality is modern military weapons systems).

 

Homing torpero's have been around for over a century, and were used very extensively in WW2.

 

Guided missiles WERE used by the Germans during WW2. In that conflict we saw the first cruise missile (V-1), first ballistic missile (V-2) and first guided ASM (anti-ship missile). Furthermore, a great deal of ungaided rockets (not missiles eizo) were used, mainly for area-attacks and CAS.

 

Corran, in respect to WW2 and SW, as Crazy Dog said, the SW dogfights were based on WW2.

 

Now in respect to your 'capital ships that can hold thousands of people' question, again yes. The Japanese has super-battleships (Yamato and Musashi) along with many others, while the British had the King George V-class, the Germans had the Bismark, the Americans had the various South Dakota, Iowa etc classes. These capital ships did hold thousands of people, has extensive anti-aircraft armament and were very vulnerable to aircraft.

 

What you must understand about my argument is not that the weapons are the same, but the operating principles of the weapons are the same. Hence as RoN is designed with these principles in mind, and AoM is not, RoN has the obvious advantage in weapons compatability.

[eizo131]

Good points. hmmm Where is my history book.....

[Crazy_dog no.3]

BTW just to say my bit about Romans is nothing to do with RoN but its an interesting read nothertheless.

[Echuu Shen-Jon]

Hmm...I think it's about time that LA makes their own engine. I think the air-units looks odd in SWGB, because Microsoft hadn't thought about air-units, when they made AoE?! I haven't tried Generals, but the graphic looks awesome. Anyway, LA will have to "update" the graphics in-game, if they don't use their own engine, because maybe it's the newest new right now, but in one year?!

[Admiral Vostok]

Yes, the WW2 aspect of RoN counts for it. But think of it this way. Imagine you care nothing for Star Wars, but just want a good RTS game. You walk into your favourite games store and see Rise Of Nations and Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds 2.

 

You think:

"Hmm, RoN is about two years old now. It probably has nothing on SWGB2. Let's see. Hmm, eight ages for RoN. Oh, SWGB2 only has half that..." - this is because you have to cut out all the ages before you get planes because they make no sense - "... Hmm, fewer units in SWGB2 as well. I guess that's because they cut out those other ages. Unique resources, that's an interesting idea, oh wait SWGB2 has less of them too..." - having as many Star Wars based resources as RoN has real-world based resources is impossible - "... gee, it looks like even though SWGB2 is two years newer than RoN, RoN is way better. Well I know where my hard earned cash is going..."

 

The changes made to AoM would not make SWGB2 look inferior to AoM, as the changes to RoN would.

[Crazy_dog no.3]

1) Ages- Mmmm. I'll think of something and I'll post it later.

2) Units- Depends on ages.

3) Resources- I'd think there are plenty of EU resources out there.

[eizo131]

Whateveer engine they use it better have fighters,bombers look more realistic. In SWGB they looked way out of place.

 

I don't know how to make the quote thing but, if LA worked on it hard enough they could make SWGB2 with the RoN they could make it just as good as RoN.