Why did the game die/is the game dying?

[shock ~ unnamed]

Originally posted by Prime I understand the competative enjoyment that people get from this game. Hell, I enjoy beating someone, and I do try and win when I play. But when I play I usually do so in a manner I feel the game was intended, i.e. using different moves and countermoves. The point I was trying to make was if the game to someone comes down to just pull/throwing all the time, is winning that way really fun to them? I guess for me it would take away some of the enjoyment of the win. I enjoy a win much more when I defended one attack in a good way and had a well placed counter attack, and so on. If I just pull/threw for the umpteenth time and won because once again there was nothing the opponent could do, that just doesn't seem appealing. But everyone is different.

 

I see what you are saying but I'm not sure if you accurately got that pull-throw example the way I intended it (my bad).

 

The pull-throw is by no means a "super" move you can spam over and over on it's own for quick wins.

Let alone is it something I would ever really rely on as my primary offense.

The only reason I threw it in there was because of the absorb comment he made.

It was simply a way of me showing “he does X, I counter with Y”.

 

Absorb users when pulled will not slide but they will go into the "hand out" animation.

Hence an absorb user is a much easier target for pull throwing than a dark sider.

 

That has really been my gripe since day one with a lot of people who posted and complained here.

There never really has been a "super move" that could not be countered in any version.

The DFA of 1.02 was not a big deal.

The back stab of 1.03 was not either.

Kicks and pull-throws are not a big deal.

 

All people had to do was learn the counters and those moves being "spammed" was not a concern anymore.

 

But the problem is they didn't want to learn, they just wanted a quick fix (patch) to make up for their shortcomings.

[ILR]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed

I'm not sure where you did most of your 1.04 Force dueling but statement could not be more off if you tried man.

 

1.04 Force dueling is ALL about Force based combat and maybe 1% saber swings.

 

99% of the top ranked FF duelers throughout all of 1.04 didn't even use sabers in FF dueling other than as a follow up swing after a kick knockdown.

 

And there has never been an "elite" light side FF dueler throughout all of 1.04 on any ladder or league.

 

Light side at any level is completely and utterly worthless in 1.04 dueling.

 

I zap you with a short blast of lightning.

You reflexively flip on absorb.

I simply pull+throw the hell out of you (absorb makes doing that very easy).

 

You try a heal you waste 1/2 of your pool for a measly 25 hp.

 

All I have to do is drain whore you and kick you to death and the match is over.

 

 

In 1.04 FF dueling this is how it goes in terms of what is best:

 

Drain (it is simply too damn easy to reverse 80 hp of damage by whoring it on a person with poor evasive skills)

 

Kick (level 2 jump)

 

Pull

 

Saber throw/Grip

 

I put the last two on about the same level because they are more of a "part" of devastating combos rather than the actual attack itself.

 

A properly done grip+kick can take a 100hp person down to 0 in one shot.

 

Two back to back throw+pull+kick combos will finish off a 100 hp person as well if done properly.

 

Sorry man, you have the wrong forum... and I didn't know that Lord of the Rings game had wizard duels *srhrugs*

 

 

... OH WAIT!! YOUR TALKING ABOUT JK!!!!!!!!!!

 

MY BAD! When I read that nice description of strategy the last thing I thought you were talking about was Star Wars. But no really.. its my mistake, I mean Star Wars: Jedi Knight II shouldn't really be like Star Wars. If I wanted Star Wars in my Star Wars game, I'd go play a different Star Wars game! But honestly speaking, who here really wants Star Wars in their Star Wars games? Ha! Whatta joke

[shock ~ unnamed]

Originally posted by ILR

Sorry man, you have the wrong forum... and I didn't know that Lord of the Rings game had wizard duels *srhrugs*

 

 

... OH WAIT!! YOUR TALKING ABOUT JK!!!!!!!!!!

 

MY BAD! When I read that nice description of strategy the last thing I thought you were talking about was Star Wars. But no really.. its my mistake, I mean Star Wars: Jedi Knight II shouldn't really be like Star Wars. If I wanted Star Wars in my Star Wars game, I'd go play a different Star Wars game! But honestly speaking, who here really wants Star Wars in their Star Wars games? Ha! Whatta joke

 

Well since every fan boy likes to reference the movies let's do so now.

 

 

ESB-Vader gets tired of screwing around w/ Luke and uses the Force to chunk his ass out a window.

 

RotJ-Emperor does not even carry around a fruity little saber.

He just zaps the hell out of Luke and totally "pwns" his saber RPG ass.

 

 

I don't see sabers lifting ships out of swamps.

I don't see sabers bringing down roofs and pillars on top of people.

 

Force > sabers in movies.

Force > than sabers in game.

 

In FF dueling it is a test of Force based combos and knowledge of the defenses.

Hence the name Full Force Duel.

You are dueling with Force.

 

Duel does not automatically mean saber, I know that is hard for a lot of fan boys to grasp but a duel can be w/ sabers, powers or even guns.

 

 

Duel means two people fighting against one another.

 

Duel does not mean we have to use sabers because everything else is gay.

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed

RotJ-Emperor does not even carry around a fruity little saber.

He just zaps the hell out of Luke and totally "pwns" his saber RPG ass.

 

LMAO!! ... Luke...saber RPG ass.. True, so true.

[Mr. Mofo]

I still don't see what this pull/throw combo is, splain more plz.

 

Anyway, who's to say Palpatine never carried around a lightsaber? Could have kept it under his robes, and he never really had a need to whip it out.

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by Mr. Mofo

I still don't see what this pull/throw combo is, splain more plz.

 

If you throw your saber at someone and pull just before the saber hits, the pulled opponent goes into the "pull-counter-animation" even though absorb is on.

The automatic animation blocking the pull lowers your defences and the thrown saber hits you every time.

 

There is really not much you can do about that(?)...other than evade the thrown saber.

 

Some people say it's cheap, but...whatever.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Mr. Mofo:

 

Anyway, who's to say Palpatine never carried around a lightsaber? Could have kept it under his robes, and he never really had a need to whip it out.

That's enough of that kind of suggestive smut! This is a family forum!

 

And I support everything shock ~ unnamed says that is or could be construed as being anti-fanboy.

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by Spider AL

And I support everything shock ~ unnamed says that is or could be construed as being anti-fanboy.

 

... doesn't that make you and anti-fanboy-fanboy?

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Luc Solar:

 

... doesn't that make you and anti-fanboy-fanboy?

Logically, technically, factually and morally yes,..

 

But no.

[ILR]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed

Well since every fan boy likes to reference the movies let's do so now.

 

 

ESB-Vader gets tired of screwing around w/ Luke and uses the Force to chunk his ass out a window.

 

RotJ-Emperor does not even carry around a fruity little saber.

He just zaps the hell out of Luke and totally "pwns" his saber RPG ass.

 

 

I don't see sabers lifting ships out of swamps.

I don't see sabers bringing down roofs and pillars on top of people.

 

Force > sabers in movies.

Force > than sabers in game.

 

In FF dueling it is a test of Force based combos and knowledge of the defenses.

Hence the name Full Force Duel.

You are dueling with Force.

 

Duel does not automatically mean saber, I know that is hard for a lot of fan boys to grasp but a duel can be w/ sabers, powers or even guns.

 

 

Duel means two people fighting against one another.

 

Duel does not mean we have to use sabers because everything else is gay.

 

-_-; for god's sake I know what the dictionary definition of a duel is...

 

And I don't think force should be should be eliminated from duels by all means, but you've got to be smacked up on something to think what your described a few posts ago solid SW action. I'm not saying its a bad game, nor am I saying it doesn't take talent or that there isn't strategy involved. I'm saying that it's not Star Wars. I'm fine with things not being Star Wars. I'm not really that much of a fan boy. I scarcly play SW games. I don't have a single piece of SW merchandise in my house. But when I do get around to playing a SW game, its cool when it actually resembles the movies more than just by graphics.

 

Yes Vader pwned Luke's ass with force, but Vader was a master and Luke a total n00b. In JKII SP when you faced n00b reborn all it takes is one push and a slash most of the time. When you faced the shadow troops later on force tricks didn't work as well (But they still did work..)

 

Yado can lift an X-wing out of a swamp, but for some reason he doesn't pull Dooku's arms off. And why not? Well.. the answer isn't really givin (maybe George thought the action scene was more dramatic like that). Dooku and Yado even agreed that their duel cannot be won with the force, but rather their l337 lightsaber skillz (sorry, I couldn't resist ).

 

We need the force in a duel, of course. Because its the force that turns the lightsaber into a deadly weapon and not just a uber exacto knife.

[shock ~ unnamed]

Originally posted by ILR

And I don't think force should be should be eliminated from duels by all means, but you've got to be smacked up on something to think what your described a few posts ago solid SW action.

 

JK2 is a video games loosely based in SW universe.

Much like the novels that have been put out for several years now.

 

The authors/developers are given the creative freedom to do things you never saw in the movies.

 

Hence another reminder this is not in any way related to the previous or current films.

 

JK2 is a game.

It will not play like a movie because it never was one to begin with.

 

Hence yet another validation of what people like myself have been saying.

 

You people are not mad because it is a bad game, you’re mad because it is not like the movies.

Until people can learn to separate the movies from the games they will never be able to enjoy the games for what they are.

[Break_dF]

I don't think ppl understand the obstacle that "true" saber combat is... Think of it in a dev's perspective. It is impossible to match any type of actual "saber dueling" via a mouse and keyboard. Come up with an ingenious way of scripting some random neo-gen and mail it to Raven. With the implementation of auto-blocking, the game completely stepped away from any "true" movie-style combat. Blocking IS saber combat. Trust me, I fence, I know. In-game sword play is much more complex than most "fanbois" think... I'm guessing it'll take atleast 5 years before any type of "true" saber combat is found in an online game. It's just too damned difficult to get around...

[Prime]

Originally posted by ILR

Yado can lift an X-wing out of a swamp, but for some reason he doesn't pull Dooku's arms off. And why not? Well.. the answer isn't really givin (maybe George thought the action scene was more dramatic like that).

 

Actually, George did tell us why Yoda didn't pull Dooku's arms off. From Empire, "Use the force for knowledge and defence, never for attack." Probably safe to assume that pulling someone's arm out constitutes an attack

 

Originally posted by Break_dF

With the implementation of auto-blocking, the game completely stepped away from any "true" movie-style combat. Blocking IS saber combat.

 

I don't think auto-blocking is a drastic deviation from "true" movie-style combat, or more generally, that JO deviates greatly from the movies. There is strong evidence that the force guides a jedi's actions, instead of the jedi making consious moves. From A New Hope:

 

BEN: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.

LUKE: You mean it controls your actions?

BEN: Partially. But it also obeys your commands.

 

and

 

BEN: This time, let go your conscious self and act on instinct.

 

I think the auto-blocking, besides being a gameplay decision, represents the jedi's instintive reflexes when using his saber, both for defending against a saber strike and blaster bolts. The Jedi not so much says, "here comes a blaster bolt, so I need to place my saber blade right...here." He allows the force to control his actions to place the saber blade where it needs to be. Real movie auto-blocking

 

Every argument I've seen about how JO is such an abomination against the movies has already been disproven by various people with evidence from the movies. Spider Al and I have been a part of several of these debates elsewhere, usually involving Jedi with guns...

[Break_dF]

Yeah ok... continue being a tool.

[Naphtali]

Originally posted by ILR

Heh.. on the contrary.. I found the AI for the saber opponents so random that it was frusterating. Also, when the AI executes a move, he'll execute the move no matter what. My favorite example is the blue uppercut attack... so far the only way to dodge that is to be running away. Best part is that the AI will just slap that puppy in whenever the hell he feels like it. You could be slashing, he could be defending... he could be slashing and you defending.. you both could be slashing... and suddenly the video will go slow mow as I watch Kyle keel over from the ending frames of the uppercut animation.

 

Oh and Dassan at the end is just rich. If I we're a reviewer, I would honestly publish that I inteaded to give the game a great score, but when I fought Dassan at the end I changed the score to 1.3 out of ten. You cannot fight him directly nor fight him indirectly. He has "magic instant slash" compounded infanitly. When facing him it all looks the same- straight combat until I die suddenly from the ending frames of god knows what slash. And I love how like when you get a little too far away from him he goes force crazy... lightning and chocking up the ass. And that level 3 push doesn't do jack against it, hope you pacted Bacta containers. The only easy way to beat this MF'er is to be cheap as hell. I've had more engaging duels with Reborn fodder than with him. And to put him at the end of the game, talk about a sour note to end on...

 

Maybe for me it's differen't because All i do is a horizontal slash moving away from the lunge then their head is gone bcause of that.

I didn't like the flips, the slashes they used leaving them wide open, and like i said when i played in slowmotion i notice the failings of the collision system even more. Plus the points weren't even if you wan't to parry someone use red stance overhead swing knocked their own saber and yours into them .

 

I agree, Desann was ridiculous, you can't duel him or out forcehim and most of the time you can't push hhim out of his grip. IF the saber system were more challanging, and not ridiculous acrobatic swings where are not needed for certain characters removed, then it would be btter to me

[Prime]

Originally posted by Break_dF

Yeah ok... continue being a tool.

 

I was just saying I don't think it is as much of a deviation from the movies as people think, and to put those fanboys at ease. But hey, if you want to just flame me instead of saying why you disagree, by all means

 

And the auto-blocking was developed because of the desire to make saber combat as simple as possible. From the developer chat November 20, 2001:

 

CreedoG: How complex will saber dueling be? Will there actually be skill, or only mouse/keyboard smashing?

 

Jedi Outcast: Our goal is to make the controls simple, but make the animations complex and exciting.

 

Jedi Outcast: The player is able to control the saber based on the player movement.

 

And being in the software business, there is nothing inherently more difficult about saber defense. If they wanted, they could have just as easily created a defensive system that uses input from the player. But that would require more of a learning curve to learn, and that was not the goal of the developers. Hell, I haven't tried it, but Promod already relies more on player input to some extent I think.

[Break_dF]

Fencing is as true as it gets...

 

And yes, you deserved to be called a tool.

[Prime]

Sorry Saber Superstar, edited my post above while you were flaming...

 

I see. I thought saber combat was more of a slashing/cutting style of swordplay, where as fencing relied on thrusts.

 

And do you make saber noises when you fence?

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Break_dF:

 

Yeah ok... continue being a tool.

Heh heh, grow up Break. I actually agree with you in that I think autoblocking is feeble, but if you can't articulate better than this, you're no better than a fanboy.

 

Originally posted by Break_dF:

 

Fencing is as true as it gets...

Of couuuurse... because you use the FORCE in fencing, don't youuu... I'm sorry, but trying to equate your stabbing art with the sabre combat in a Star Wars computer game is just as futile as trying to reproduce the movies in game format.

 

Originally posted by Naphtali:

 

I agree, Desann was ridiculous, you can't duel him or out forcehim

Well, I did it. And on Jedi Master skill. If I can do it, you can do it. Anyone can do it.

 

Or am I too elite?

[Prime]

Originally posted by Spider AL

I actually agree with you in that I think autoblocking is feeble

 

I also agree that auto-blocking might not have been the best way to go as far as gameplay is concerned. I understand why the decision was made, though.

 

I beat Desann with dueling as well. I was only on the Jedi skill level though

[Break_dF]

Sorry... I'm sick of arguing w/ ppl that think they know everything about game engines/mechanics. If you know so much, apply for a job at Raven. Until then, stfu. I'm the one that needs to grow up? You're the one equating true sword play to a starwars movie...

[Prime]

Originally posted by Break_dF

Sorry... I'm sick of arguing w/ ppl that think they know everything about game engines/mechanics. If you know so much, apply for a job at Raven. Until then, stfu. I'm the one that needs to grow up? You're the one equating true sword play to a starwars movie...

 

He was not equating true sword play to a Star Wars movie. In fact, he was stating the opposite. He was stating that fencing has very little relation to game lightsaber fighting, and gave good reasons why. If there is to be a connection made between movie saber fighting and real world swordplay, I think it is supposed to be closer to Kendo.

 

Do I know everything about engines/mechanics? Certainly not. Some things? Yes. Have I written video games? Yes. Do I write software for a living? Yes. So I at least have an incling of what might be involved. I also posted something from Raven on why they used auto-blocking, and it wasn't totally because it is difficult. However, I won't tell you to STFU, since I recognize that you are entitled to speak your mind, and frankly I just try not to be that childish. And I don't need to apply to Raven, I already have a great paying software job

 

And really, I would have prefered that you had replied with the above originally. If you had asked what I might know on the subject instead of just calling me a tool, then at least you would have asked a legitimate question.

 

But I digress. I really have no interest in getting into name-calling with you Break_dF. So I will cease to do so. Truce?

[Break_dF]

Christ, you guys just don't get it...

 

I tried to make a point, not drag myself into some random sw rpg discussion. JK3 will NOT be like the movies and it will NOT be anywhere close to "true saber combat." Get over it or, again, apply for a job at Raven.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Break_dF

Christ, you guys just don't get it...

 

I tried to make a point, not drag myself into some random sw rpg discussion. JK3 will NOT be like the movies and it will NOT be anywhere close to "true saber combat." Get over it or, again, apply for a job at Raven.

 

For crying out loud. Who here is saying JO is just like the movies or real world swordplay? I and others seem to be agreeing with you. And where is there SW rpg discussion?

 

My point was that a defensive system in JO that was more complex than auto-blocking is certainly possible from an implementation standpoint. I was not trying to say that you could create a game that would very accurately represent lightsaber and real-life combat. I agree with you on that.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Break_dF:

 

Christ, you guys just don't get it...

No Break, you don't get it. What are you doing here, trying to make a point? A point? How is calling people "tools" making a point? How is it mature? How is it intelligent? Are you just a troll, looking for a fight? Try to read people's posts properly in future before mouthing off with such intellectual masterpieces as "U R A TOOL" or "STFU". You have NO idea. None.