Ivf

[Meksilon]

Due to forum regests I'll refrain from starting an argument in Natty's thread (although if I'm not mistaken an involved discussion includes an argument). Instead let's discuss something I hate even more then homosexuality......... IVF! Let's ignore for the time being embrionic-stem-cell-research (which of course by definition of IVF being wrong goes without saying is also wrong). We shall also ignore (for the time-being) IVF in specific relation to single mothers and to lesbians.

 

However feel free to discuss ultrasound and abortions as well (as I am also against both of these). Why ultrasound you might ask? Well it puts the baby in danger - it can harm, disfoarm or even kill the baby. And it also isn't entirely accurate, and can give parents misleading information.

 

In otherwords let's just talk about brining children into this world, and as babies what is right, what is wrong. So let's see, what are some points I should make? Well the first is that it's compleatly artifical it's as artifical as impregnating a man with an embrio - which could be done very easily - exactly as you see in the movie Junior (no I am not joking).

 

I don't think people have a right to have children, it is a privilage if you are abel to contract them - so if you desire them. Also I am absolutly against abortion - you do NOT have the right to kill another human being no matter how young and un-developed he or she may be. Now my beleif is that the moment an embrio is fertalised - as soon as it is created that is when it's life begins. I know this produces the problem of "well if it's life then then what is it if it splits into twins?" - however I explain that by simply saying "if that's the case it was two people to begin with".

 

IVF can also be used as in genetic-screening (much like Gattaca, only some things in that movie such as fingertip-blood-samples and such would never be implemented, but genetic screening which will eventually lead to the extent as portrayed in the movie is of course underway). Now you may think "ahh this is good, we will live longer and better with Designer-Babies". However I think: you bloody selfish pigs! How dare you have so little respect for human life and tamper with the genetic make-up of a person.

 

See you are no longer having a child if you're going to say "I want a male offspring with blonde hair, blue eyes, solid build and immunity to aids/hiv, ms, parkinson's, astema, diabeaties..." No. That is not only selfish and unnatural, wrong and stupid - but it is also going to upset our natural world. What sort of a place do you tink it'll be if we all live longer? More old people, a larger population as a direct result, and less people dying natural deaths - cancer, aids (now I know some of you will say "you have to be sharing needles or having sex with many people to contract aids, however it is possibly to be stabbed by a maniac-drugo or to have an open-wound infected with another's or to be raped) - however let's not get side-tracked.

 

Why is everyone so concerned about living longer anyway? Oh that's right! Athiests!! See EVERYTHING always comes back to God, and only a very few people on this Earth are beyond redemption (since there is only one unforgivable sin). See I'm not Michael Jackson (plastic sugery would make a good topic wouldn't it?) My point is that I don't live in Netherland and I don't want to live forever as Jacko plans to, rather I have faith that there is something better then this world.

 

Of course there are Athiest scum who disagree, some even seem to think that Jesus was some kind of phycho that thought he was God. Of course as absurd as that idea is to me, it's probably the only sencible explination you can give and retain a beleif that Jesus isn't God - heck even Stanists agree that Jesus is God.

 

So in closing I'd like to say ye of little faith will seek IVF, thou of thine Soverign Lord will pray and seek guidance from Thy Master.

 

OR IN OTHERWORDS: IVF is an exploitation of human rights, of human beings, of nature and surely it is an abnormalty before God. God made Adam and Eve who made children the natural way (of course please don't take that story too literally since they only had male offspring).

 

Anyway I now call the IVF discussion open.

 

This is the mark of Meksilon.

[scabb]

Originally posted by Meksilon

See I'm not Michael Jackson (plastic sugery would make a good topic wouldn't it?) My point is that I don't live in Netherland and I don't want to live forever as Jacko plans to, rather I have faith that there is something better then this world.

 

Are you implying that Micheal Jackson is Dutch?

 

People that believe in the christian god are fun to pet. I love how your whole life is dictated by a simple book, your ethos does not stem from your own conscious and experience, but from a world that might have existed in a literary classic designed to allow churches to wield unquestionable power and dictate society as they pleased. It's also quite funny how you fuse science with religion, when the two are quite clearly mutually exclusive.

 

Other than the gratuitous shots at atheists and clear wanderings from the topic in hand, you have made a semi-valid point. The morality of IVF does need to be questioned. Your whole argument behind this point is rather shoddily put together, and you are certainly not very good at feeding us this propaganda.

 

In Conclusion, the main theme of this topic is nowhere near as outrageous as the usual nonsense that accomponies baby Yodas face. The controversy lies in the half-related drivel that fills the main portion of the post. I'm sure some people will be wound up though, although next time you might want to include some expletives. I hear people don't like those.

[Darth Eggplant]

I would like to say as far as IVF, and Meksilon, and the movie Gattica are concerned. Evolution and it's sinister synonym;

ie Eugenics is a nutural phenomynon. so is Homosexuality

which It sounds like you are not entirely for. and also Abortion

(this is not practiced so much in the wild but Infancide is.)

 

Homosexuality is natural and anyone who says otherwise

needs to get in touch with nature.

I have heard the ignorant statement

'I wish all homo's were dead.'

well hypothetically for argument sake.

*Nuke gay Whales!*

however...

statistically more or less I have heard that 15 to 20%

and some claim higher still...of our global population is

homosexual. (or Lesbian, or Bi sexual or whatever sexual

orientation that you are.)

so taking this into consideration, eliminate all non hetro's

and I garentee you in the next generation of offspring,

15 to 20% similar sexually oriented children will again

be born. (also have you ever seen or heard of say

a dog or other house hold pet, displaying signs of

homosexuality?)

yes it happens even in the global animal community

and since animals are part of nature, and since 'we'

as humans are actually animals,

(although we try and pretend that we are not)

Homosexuality and other forms of non hetrosexual sexuality

is natural because it occurs in nature.

 

Abortion, now Abortion does not occur in nature,

I must admit I have never seen a nature doccumentary

that features a penguin gynocologist, or a dingo doctor

practicing abortion: BUT Infancide does get practiced

in the wild. and all the time. mothers often get rid of

unwanted offspring and so do the offsrings siblings.

an animal with 12 teets with which to provide milk

for her babies has a litter of 13.

Guess what the mother does not tell the babies

to make do or share and be a happy family.

No right off the bat Darwinisms rears it's Galapegoes head.

12 new borns get fed, and the 13th of the litter

well lets just say that "All Dogs Go To Heaven"

this also occurs with young and old and sick animals

as well if any member of the herd is too ill or constitutes

a weakness to the rest; then that animal is on it's own.

nature doccumentary people, vetrinarians, and scientist

have noted that animals 'DO' experience pain and feelings

of attachment to their young. mothers will stay and guard

their dead from scavengers. or stay the night hoping

the sick one will get better, but eventually preservation

of the species takes over and the animal moves on.

(this is not done with spite or malice, merely by instinct

and built in darwinistic need and drive to perpetuate

the species.) and as such birth, death and mating

in the animal kingdom follows this golden rule.

Animals always strive to perpetuate and improve their

species it is evolution. only the strong or the most colourful

or the animal that puffs it's cheeks up, or makes it's ass

glow a bright red get to procreate. and as such...

Infancide\Evolution\Darwinism\and Eugenics are all natural.

 

Now science and playing GOD.

Humans are animals

(despite what extreme religious types say)

we are part of the food chain,

we are part of the circle of life,

and we procreate just the same as other animals do.

Symetry a very invisible yet potent instinct in us.

whether conscious of it or not

when we look at another human we are looking for

pefection. (IT is part of our natural evolutionary drive.)

if your ears and eyes line up and are exactly in the same

place. we find that cosmetic appearance more desirable

than having one ear the size of a cabbage

and the other the size of a frisbee.

are our arms and legs the same length?

do are feet have straight nice little piggies

all going wee wee wee! into the bedroom

for a bit of ....(well let's give the moment some privacy)

so we as humans *being animals* whether we admit it

or not. also walk the same line of evolution.

 

WE HAVE decided through Sophistry

that we should embrace all life,

and even at birth or when old

we keep that life alive and on

life support if need be.

just because killing is not wrong;

but because killing makes you into the bad cop.

and most people want to be good cop;

so we actually do something totally against

our genetic profile; we actually

DO NOT follow evolution.

and every cause has an equal and opposite reaction

so Gattica and the world of Eugenics

now has a place in our world and society.

some will and more are going over

each and every day,

to the side of IVF and other initials

and the Eugenics wars will be on us soon enough

and let all the mundanes tremble

because the meek will not inherit the earth.

Corporations are mapping the human geonome

and they are placing patents on DNA.

*even if they get that DNA from a person*

they take their DNA do some research

and claim it in the name of profit

and not humanity.

 

so yes Eugenics exist

and research is done

and the geonome is being mapped

and test tube babies are born

fertitlity drugs mad to let women

have litters of 5 or 6 at a time.

(and believe me when I say this and most women

will agree. the human animal is suppose to have

one child in gestation at a time. naturaly

twins and even tripplets do occur but rarely.

and not Quintupplets.

why now couples actually want to break

the Guiness record on who gave birth

to the most babies.

(so they can get their 15 minutes of fame on TV)

 

and if it makes you feel any better

reading this consider this.

1933 -1945 Joseph Mengle (spelt wrong I know)

was considered a Natzi war criminal

today 2003 he would be nominated

and win the Nobel prize for Medicine.

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[Joshi]

0kay, I’m not going to go into the whole homosexuality thing here, it's clear you hate them and I’m not going to try and change you.

I am however going to stand up for atheists (and me being a Hindu, this should be stupid of me, but you'll understand later.) and that is basically the fact that we all have a right to our religion (as we do our sexual preference, but like I said, I’m not going to go into that). if some chooses not to believe in god, or some all powerful being, then that's their choice, I’m not going to say what kind of people these are, I know some good soulful people (who don't believe in should, but never mind) who are atheist and I really don't see them any different to most of the other people around me.

But then Scabb, I also thing that mek has every right to be a Christian. So he may be lead by a single book and believe in things that may seem a little far fetched to you or me, but it's kinda funny. It’s this little thing called faith. I can say that as a Hindu I believe in god and in many ways this has helped me through many of life’s problems because I have faith that he will be watching over me and all will work out in the end. Now you can say that I’m a complete idiot to be thinking that, but the real idiots are those who think there is no way out. I’m not going to say whether there is or isn't a god, I’m not here to discuss this, all I’m saying is that the idea of god has helped me, the feeling and belief in him is what gets me through. It’s the faith that we have which is what helps us, and in that sense, wouldn't you say that in some way, god is real?

oh, and just to note, mek, of course Satanists say that Jesus existed, they worship Satan, but still acknowledge god and Jesus as Christians believe in and worship god, but know that Satan exists.

 

Now, on to the subject in hand (sorry for rattling on like that before) okay, now I’m kinda gonna jump around here, but I’ll start with ultrasound and abortions. Yes, ultrasound is dangerous and harmful to the baby, but it does depend. Some mothers [to be] have an ultrasound done maybe once every week for the nine months when some only have it done once in the pregnancy. Most of the time the once only mothers have perfectly healthy babies when the once a week ones have the problems, but only occasionally (the ratio is very much against it being harmful, but still evident). And abortions, well that is a completely different conversation altogether (and probably best in a different thread considering we can go one for a while on it). But basically, there are arguments for and against. Unwanted pregnancies aren't always the mother fault (as you said before, she could get raped) and this sort of thing could ruin her life. I myself would prefer them to give the baby up for adoption, but that is normally very hard for the mother after she has had the baby as most develop an emotional bond to it and can't give it up. So sometime an abortion is the best way to go, but sometimes it isn't.

 

Now to the topic in hand, IVF. Frankly, it should be used for such things as getting rid of aids and HIV and so on (I’m not going into the aid epidemic verses religion thing) but should be used to develop the sex of the baby. As nature goes, we should have a 50-50 split of males and female, but if asked what they'd prefer, you can bet this would be different. Also things such as hair colour and eye colour shouldn't be changed or altered. I’m not too sure on the whole deformed matter, this may be discrimination against deformed people in the world as some lead very happy normal lives and plus I wouldn't like to live in a world full of "perfect" people.

 

Also, I think single people and lesbians have a right to bring up a baby. Remember, they are still bringing life into the world which is really what we do. Just because they choose not to have a partner, or be with males doesn't take away their right to have a child. And yes, having a child is a privilege, but your saying that based on there chosen way of life, some people shouldn't be given this privilege. That’s just wrong in my opinion. Well, that's me over.

[brief]

[Meksilon]

Originally posted by scabb

People that believe in the christian god are fun to pet. I love how your whole life is dictated by a simple book.

The Bible is a collection of somewhat complicated and inter-related historical writings which we beleive are God-Breathed. But I just love it how you call it a simple book, it's so cute.

 

Now Eggplant you've made some valid points... and some invalid points. Firstly HUMANS ARE NOT ANIMALS. And we cannot be compared to animals in the ways you are talking about. There's nothing ignorant in realising that homosexuality is wrong - in The Bible this can be very esily proven: The relationship between a man and a woman is defined by God, and defined as being good in certain circumstances. God made Adam - or in otherwords God made Man, and then God made Eve for Adam - or in clearer words God made Woman for Man.

 

Now lets quickly break down your (circular) argument, using your (circular) argument I can prove many things for instance: murder is natural, cannabilisim is natural, it is natural to leave your children after only a few months.... et cetera. Basically you aren't really proving anything if you are looking at characteristics of Animals - because lets face it if that's case then: clothing is unnatural, haircuts are unnatural, tattoos are unnatural, complicated verbal commincation of languages is unnatural, living in houses is unnatural, using a flushing toilet is unnatural... should I continue?

 

Now as as Non-Bibically based proof I can still prove my points, however I feel that it is a much better idea to rely on what God has instructed. So despite that God made Woman for Man for God, let's look deeper, well the first thing is that God declares homosexuality as being an abnormalty before Him. There are those who aregue that we are born gay, I beleive that everyone is born with the potential to become gay - or the long and the short of it is that we are all born sinners that's what The Bible says, so therefore I rest my case.

 

Jesus didn't care if he offended people when he said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light no one comes into Heave except through me". Infact as far as the world and Athiests are concerned I can't think of anything more offensive. No what he claims is ver radical and it's a huge claim so he's either very sure of himself and telling us the truth - or he's a compleate nut case!

 

When I was, well, younger there were some things that Jesus said that I never really understood - for insatance "The love of money is a root to every kind of evil". I didn't understand that simply because I could not comprehend people - anyone actually loving money. But alas there are people who do love money as I later discovered, and hence it made very clear sence to me. People who love money will do anything for money - they will murder, they will lie, they will sell their souls to The Devil himself for money.

 

Neil you've made one valid point: we all have a right to what we beleive in. Now this does mean that people are allowed to think Homosexuality is natural. However I will repeat myself as I stated before: I AM NOT LEAD BY A SINGLE BOOK, Rather a collection of historical writings written over 6000 years (or whenever you might argue the fiurst books of the Old Testiment were written).

 

To be lead by one book or one person or a religion is REALLY, REALLY, REALLY stupid. Christianity is a religion isn't it? No it's much more then that, it is unlike any ohter religion for several reasons the most obvious being that it is all about YOU and not God or anyone else.

 

Now Neil I did think perhapps my point would have been more obvious to you. Stanists are people who acknowledge and confess the Holy Trilogy: God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit, but instead they conciously follow Satan. Like everyone's favorate homosexual singer Mr Manson or as his family knows him Brian Warner. Now why would anyone conciously follow Satan? Well they are smarter then Athiests and anyone following a diffrent Religion, I'd have to confess that much (in other words; credit where credit due). But that is where their credability ends. They are smarter then the rest of the Non-Christian world because they know that Our God exisits and is God.

 

Now lets get back to IVF, Abortions and Ultrasound. Neil some Mothers have Abortions as a direct result of finding out that their child has a disorder from Ultrasound. And you did make an excellent point: deformed people DO go on to live great lives! But they would never have that change if they were killed or prevented from existing.

 

I am absolutly against all forms of unnatural-genetic-tampering. And not because it is unsafe. And not because it produces diffrent people. But because it is wrong. That is why I'm against it.

 

They say people who do not know the diffrence between right and wrong are insane. Well whoever has wisdom let him speak now, for wisdom alone is what can clear this line up. For if there is right and wrong (which there is) then there must be a reason for something being right and a reason for something being wrong. I beleive that we are born into darkness, born into death, born as slaves to sin. In this state we MUST be blinded as to seeing what is right and wrong. Now if we are born into death, darkness and sin, it must therefore go to follow that inherantly anything is wrong unless it fits the moral/ethical profile for being right.

 

For this reason we must be born again, this time born through God('s Holy Spirit) - born into Light, born into Life. I do not think you can full experience or appreciate life until you free yourself from darkness.

 

*****

 

When you are actually abel to lead a sin-free life all this comes into focus, beleive me. I'm not saying I lead a compleatly sin-free life now, but beleive when I say that my life is good. Maybe one day I will be truely free, but until that day I await God's judgement. How can I have so much faith in something you know so little about? Perhapps it'd be worth your while finding out.

 

Now a quick note: please try to use smaller paragraphs when replying, it makes it a lot easier to read.

 

This is the mark of Meksilon.

[Joshi]

Originally posted by Meksilon

They say people who do not know the difference between right and wrong are insane. Well whoever has wisdom let him speak now, for wisdom alone is what can clear this line up. For if there is right and wrong (which there is) then there must be a reason for something being right and a reason for something being wrong. I believe that we are born into darkness, born into death, born as slaves to sin. In this state we MUST be blinded as to seeing what is right and wrong. Now if we are born into death, darkness and sin, it must therefore go to follow that inherantly anything is wrong unless it fits the moral/ethical profile for being right.

 

You can't really believe that there is only god and evil. This means that you see the world on black and white. You seem to forget that there are some grey areas and you can have areas of good and bad. Human beings are not by definition good or bad. You cannot say that Walt Disney was good person nor can you say that Hitler was bad, they had a mixture.

Also, you talk of mo0ral and ethics. Now that is completely different from right or wrong, what may be ethical may not be right. I am reminded of a Frasier episode (oh yes, the pearls of wisdom from an American sitcom) where martin says that in he did not fully read a criminal his rights on arrest because he was stopped by the criminal halfway through. When asked about this in court, if he had said that he didn't read the rights, the man would have walked free. If he tells the truth, that would have been ethical. If he lied and said he read the rights fully, that wouldn't have been ethical. But it would have been right.

 

Also, you say that Satanists are smarter than non Christian people because they believe that god and Jesus exists. This is wrong as you are saying it is smart to believe in something that will eventually lead them to damnation. It doesn't matter which religion you follow or which god you believe in, if you lead a full and just life, you will get your rewards in the end. I believe that it is simply the faith (and i didn't want to use that word again, but I’ve been given no choice) that decides who is wrong. If i believe that god, any god, be they Christian, Hindu, Muslim or so on, can save me, then surely that will deliver me from true damnation.

 

Now okay yes, in certain circumstances, people have abortions to not have a deformed baby. But if this baby was to live nothing but a few months of pain and suffering, surely it is best to destroy the child before it has to go through that. But if it was only deformed and had a chance of living a healthy life, then yes, i agree, they should be allowed to live with no shame.

 

Also, if genetic tampering can be used to wipe out such epidemics as aids and so on, shouldn't that be allowed. You said it's unnatural, but we are evolving creatures, we are developing. you might was well say that we should go back to the middle ages and live like them. They say that the renascence was a good time to be in, but isn't this just carrying it on. We are experiencing the renascence, but you are one of those who don’t like change and so protests against it.

[Deadmeat_X]

OMFG (yes put the F there on purpose)...Mek returns and tadaaa! Discussions! Wich means:

 

-Mek holding on to his beliefs like it's his life

-Senseless discussions. I mean what's the point of this? Abortus, IVF, whatever...it's their choice! Not yours! So leave it!

-Way too long posts that I'm not gonna read unless I'm really bored...

[Darth Eggplant]

as a fruit actually masquerading as a vegatable

and as high priest in he church of circular animalism

I must agree with Mek. Hiarcuts, clothing, tatoos

all these things including digital watches are all un-natural.

 

so since we are animals,

and using your own arguments Mek:

yes all of these things haircuts,watches,

tattoos, clothing are all impossible

so they do not exist and they are void

and invaild.

 

*pssst but hey so to is writing and books

animals can't read or write.

so sorry your holy bible

has to join the list and it therefore

is void and christianity is impossible

and can not and does not exist.*

 

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[Natty]

So I guess in the case of a Melbourne couple who have been given the go ahead to create the perfect baby in order to save their childs life is a bad thing? OK I missed what the bad point was there. This designer baby is being given a chance at life and the chance to save his or her older brother or sister. Why should those who can't have children be deprived of that fact? What about surrogacy pregnancies?

 

Although I will agree I'm against abortion- if you screw around and have sex without a condom or being on the pill then you should face up to your responsibilities... I will only consider an abortion if:

 

A. I have been raped- it will be bad enough that I have to live with being a rape victim for the rest of my life, and I know I wouldn't be able to look at the child with I can't think of the word

 

B. The child has a severe deformity, now it would depend on the deformity at the time and whether it can be treated or not, but it would be something I'd have to closely consider.

 

 

 

 

Can I just ask a stupid question? Why are these "discussions" always made to sound like it's my fault if a fight breaks out?

[mercatfat]

Have you ever stopped to think that if all of humanity began from Adam and Eve that we're all products of incest? Think about it. Their sons and daughters together populated the whole human race.

 

But wait, doesn't the bible say incest is wrong? Maybe they just didn't want to be right.

[Meksilon]

Originally posted by mercatfat

Have you ever stopped to think that if all of humanity began from Adam and Eve that we're all products of incest? Think about it. Their sons and daughters together populated the whole human race.

 

But wait, doesn't the bible say incest is wrong? Maybe they just didn't want to be right.

I told you did I not that that is only a story, what with Adam and Eve only having male children in ends in a compleatly impossibly scenario. Adam means Man and Eve means Woman and so if you look at it in those regards it does make a lot of sence to have that stroy in the begining of The Bible, because God created Man in His Image, God created Woman for Man, God created the animals to serve Humanity, etc.

 

Now Neil made a good point. An ignorant but a worth point nontheless which requires an explination. Is everything black and white? Yes. Then what are the greys? Easy, those are a black or white that you are unabel to dicipher, or in other-words - you're just not sure wheather it's right or wrong. It is never right to do the wrong thing, ever. so therefore anything that contains wrong can never be right. Sure we could say it's more right the wrong, blah blah blah, but if it's dependant on a wrong it is wrong.

I am reminded of a Frasier episode (oh yes, the pearls of wisdom from an American sitcom) where martin says that in he did not fully read a criminal his rights on arrest because he was stopped by the criminal halfway through. When asked about this in court, if he had said that he didn't read the rights, the man would have walked free. If he tells the truth, that would have been ethical. If he lied and said he read the rights fully, that wouldn't have been ethical. But it would have been right.

Dude, you live in one very, very strange country. Ok the bill of rights, or call it the caution I don't care. As far as Australia is concerned an officer is supposed to caution someone when they are arrested, however if they do not and the criminal does make a confession the criminal will not walk free because he was not cautioned.

 

Now heard in front of a Jury they are to deceide wheather or not someone is guilty because of the evidence before them, not on the basis of legal technicalities. I think you'll find in America someone SHOULD walk free if his confession was before being cautioned, however there will still be other evidence and I seriously doubt that they would walk free.

 

The outcome of a wrong does not make it right Neil. If I murdered Hitler and prevented half of WW2 then I am still not justified in commiting murder - unless I am of course commanded to kill him by God (yes God is violent from time to time).

 

Now Neil your next paragraph is very, very ignorant. Yes God can save you. Unless you are beyond redemption (which is possible) but I have not seen any evidence to suggest such. However it's up to you to choose to save yourself from damnation. Now I am not protesting against change either, no. I have very very hight respect for human life. I don't care if scientests want to do testing on dogs, cats, mice, rats, monkeys (keep in mind an animal is always destroyed directly after testing) - because they are only animals. I don't think they should be tampering genitically with them though.

 

As for us, well I definatly firmly beleive it's wrong. The end never justifies the means Natty, as I said before, I don't think the Melb couple should have designed their baby so that their original child could live, that is exploitation of human life. Now there are those who disagree with me here, and I do respect their belif: which is if you do kill a child, even if it's in am embrionic state you do send it into damnation. I beleive this for three MAIN reasons: Jesus said no one can come into Heaven except through him, We are born with original sin, and it would create a back-door for getting into heaven - in otherwords your killing a child (which is bad) ends up by freeing it into Heaven (which is good) Jesus said light has no place with darkness.

 

Dath I never said any of that stuff is wrong I was using it to show how the argument was circular. To NATTY: I no problem with a good argument, even if it does get a little heated (but not personal attacking of course). On the other hand there are those who beleive that an argument is wrong and they cry out.

 

Neil aids first appeared in Monkeys. Beastiality then transfered it to humans. And then people having multipul sexual partners spred it even more. I'm not against a cure for aids or a vaccine, becuase although it's usually only transfered through sex, if someone with aids is bleeding everywhere and it fets into a cut you have you'll get it, if you swallow their blood you might get it - see the beginning of Hannibal (the baby is fine, thankfully) - I think the book explains that scenario better. I am against genetic tampering to give us stronger white blood cells that are immune to aids (or however it works). We are not gods. We are God's.

 

This is the mark of Meksilon.

[Darth Eggplant]

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I'm so sorry

please forgive me

Who do I pray to

to straighten out this problem?

Straighten out this problem,

straighten out my mind

Straighten out this crooked tongue,

this crooked tongue,

this crooked tongue

My mind has wandered

from the straight and narrow

My mind has wandered

from the flock, you see

My mind has wandered,

the man just said so

My mind has wandered,

I heard it on TV

And the flock has wandered

away from me, now

 

All around the world now

Like a big bright cherry cloud

Travelling from home to home

TV sets and telephones

Here it comes just like a storm

Bathe in it and be reborn

Time to let the world know

Welcome, madness, say hello

Say hello

Say hello

 

Like a wave we cannot see

Washing over you and me

Hiding here and hiding there

Madness hiding everywhere

Such a curiosity

Here it comes to set us free

Plenty left for you and me

Say hello, insanity

 

I am a virus,

are you the cure?

I am morally,

I'm morally impure

I am a disease

and I am unclean

I am not part of God's

well-oiled machine

Christian nation,

assimilate me

Take me in your arms

and set me free

I am part of a degenerate elite, yeah

Draggin' our society into the street

Into the abyss,

into the sewer don't you see

The man just told me,

he told me on TV

and Do you think you're better than me?

Do you wanna kill me

or befriend me?

 

The alcoholic bastard

waved his finger at me

And his voice was filled

with evangelical glee,

while Sipping down his gin and tonics

While preaching about

the evils of narcotics

And the evils of sex,

and the wages of sin

While he mentally fondles

his next of kin

'cause My mind has wandered

from the flock you see

And the flock has wandered

away from me

And he waved his hypnotizing finger

at me, yeah

 

Let's imitate reality

- insanity

Let's strive for mediocrity

- insanity

Let's make believe we're all the same

- now that's for me

Let's sanitize our little brains

- insanity

I'd love to take you home with me

and tuck you into bed

I'd love to see what makes you tick

inside your pretty head

I'd love to hear you laugh tonight,

I'd love to hear you weep

I'd love to listen to you

while you're screaming in your sleep

 

Christian sons,

Christian daughters

Lead me along like

a lamb to the slaughter

Purify my brain

and hose down my soul

White perfection,

perfection is my goal

Do you think you're better than me?

Do you wanna kill me,

or befriend me?

Christian nation,

make us all right

Put us through the filter

and make us pure and white

'Cause my mind has wandered

from the flock, you see

And the flock has wandered away from me

Let's talk of family values

while we sit and watch the slaughter

Hypothetical abortions and imaginary daughters

The white folks think they're at the top,

ask any proud white male

A million years of evolution,

we get Danny Quayle

 

All around the world now

Like a big bright cherry cloud

Travelling from home to home

TV sets and telephones

Here it comes just like a storm

Bathe in it and be reborn

Time to let the world know

Welcome, madness, say hello

 

Let's imitate reality

- insanity

Let's strive for mediocrity

- insanity

Let's make believe we're all the same

- now that's for me

Let's sanitize our little brains

- insanity

I'd love to take you home with me,

I'd love to tuck you in

I wish I could protect you

from the wages of our sin

I'd love to hear you scream tonight,

I'd love to hear you cry

Protect you from the madness

that is raining from the sky

 

Let's imitate reality

- insanity

Let's strive for mediocrity

- insanity

Let's make believe we're all the same

- now that's for me

Let's sanitize our little brains

- insanity

I'd love to take you home with me

and tuck you into bed

I'd love to see what makes you tick

inside your pretty head

I wish that I could keep you

in a precious Chinese box

On Sundays, I would pray for you

so it would never stop

 

I'd love to hear you laugh tonight,

I'd love to hear you weep

(All around the world now)

I'd love to listen to you

while you're screaming in your sleep

(Like a big bright cherry cloud)

I'd love to soothe you with my voice

and take your hand in mine

(Travelling from home to home)

I'd love to take you past the stars

and out of reach of time

(TV sets and telephones)

I'd love to see inside your mind

and tear it all apart

(Here it comes just like a storm)

To cut you open with a knife

and find your sacred heart

(Bathe in it and be reborn)

I'd love to take your satin dolls

and tear them all to shreds

(Time to let the world know)

I'd love to mess your pretty hair,

I'd love to see you dead

(Welcome madness say hello)

(Say hello)

Dead! (Say hello)

Dead yeah! (Say hello)

(Say hello)

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[mercatfat]

Originally posted by Meksilon

unless I am of course commanded to kill him by God

 

Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

 

¬

 

Originally posted by Meksilon

Neil aids first appeared in Monkeys. Beastiality then transfered it to humans.

 

Um, don't be so sure about that. Blood carries HIV. If while killing the monkey for food he got blood in an open wound, he could have contracted it. Hell, multiple people could have gotten it that way. Also, they could have ate the monkey raw and contracted it, or not cooked it well enough.

[Meksilon]

Originally posted by mercatfat

Um, don't be so sure about that. Blood carries HIV. If while killing the monkey for food he got blood in an open wound, he could have contracted it. Hell, multiple people could have gotten it that way. Also, they could have ate the monkey raw and contracted it, or not cooked it well enough.

Aids dosen't survive very long at all in dead blood, yes an open wound could contract it but even if you're a drugo and you're sharing needles and you're the last to use it and all the other dozen have aids it very unlikly you'll contract it like that.

[Meksilon]

Infact at Bible Study today we hit something that really enforces what I said before. Now keep in mind we're currently moving through Romans, which (in my view) is an excellent book, it's very well written, it's to the point and Paul certainly explains and provides evidence for his points. So:

Romans 7:7 (NIV)

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

[Joshi]

mek, you really cannot think that. and please don't say my points are ignorant if you don't agree with them.

 

there can be greys, there is never just black and white. sometimes the end does justify the means. if a man went and started abusing someone on the street and i went up and hit him, this would be violence, this would be wrong, but the person would be saved. you cannot say that me hitting this person would be right but me saving this other person would be.

 

also, please note the fraiser referance was just an example and probably wasn't true (and took place in america, but never mind that). but what i was trying to say was that ethics and doing the right things don't always go together.

 

no, if you mudered hilter, it would not make it right because WWII would not have happend so you would have had no reason to kill him (which brings up the 'minority report' scenario). but if doing something wrong prevents someone from doing something even worse, surely the end will justify the means.

[Meksilon]

Originally posted by Neil Joshi

sometimes the end does justify the means. if a man went and started abusing someone on the street and i went up and hit him, this would be violence, this would be wrong, but the person would be saved. you cannot say that me hitting this person would be right but me saving this other person would be.

That is not what I'm talking about, you didn't go out with violence on your mind to try and hit someone only to come accross a scenario where you also save someone. It is not wrong to use physical force to restrain someone from doing damage to another person. If you killed him in the process well you'd not have done wrong unless you ment to kill him and the force was unessecary. In otherwords that would hardly constitute murder.

also, please note the fraiser referance was just an example and probably wasn't true (and took place in america, but never mind that). but what i was trying to say was that ethics and doing the right things don't always go together.

Yes they do, that is a dilusion. You are not justified to lie in Court in order for an authentic criminal to be punnished in accordance with the law. I don't care if he was a child molester and he's raped and murdered a dozen kids, you are not justified to give false evidence, you are not justified to lie.

no, if you mudered hilter, it would not make it right because WWII would not have happend so you would have had no reason to kill him (which brings up the 'minority report' scenario). but if doing something wrong prevents someone from doing something even worse, surely the end will justify the means.

No I said muder him and prevent half of WW2 - in otherwords kill him during WW2.

 

This is the mark of Meksilon.

[Joshi]

i agree that to an extent i cannot lie in court in order to put a man away. but if a man did rape a dozen children and it looked as if he was going to get away scott free despite you telling the truth, surely it is worth doing something along the lines of a lie to put him away. otherwise he'll just go out there and do it again to another child.

 

and even if i didn't go out with muder or violence in my mind, it still wouldn't, hurting or mudering someone would be wrong, but would be put right by the outcome of it. you are saying that becasue i helped someone using violent force, the violence is justified. well the violence was still wrong in act, but the outcome made it right. therefore we can never be sure what is right or wrong. forget the fact that there is actually no such things a right or wrong, people say that there is a fine line between the two, but if you look closely, you'll find that that line is very big.

 

oh, and if you killed hitler during WWII, this would be considered right. you have killed one man in order to preent teh deaths of many other people. i would have to say that that is right.

[Meksilon]

Originally posted by Neil Joshi

i agree that to an extent i cannot lie in court in order to put a man away. but if a man did rape a dozen children and it looked as if he was going to get away scott free despite you telling the truth, surely it is worth doing something along the lines of a lie to put him away. otherwise he'll just go out there and do it again to another child.

No. Every person should have the same rights even if he's an unconvicted criminal. Neil the next point is that it isn't wrong because you aren't trying to hurt anyone, you are trying to help. The Bible hardly says that violence is always wrong, heck in the old laws it was God's Law to put people to death for certain sins. Violence is wrong if it is used with something that makes it wrong, eg murder or abuse/assault. You should seperate violence from this and think of violence as an act that has to be used carefully.

 

I'm not trying to say "it's okay to be violent", I'm saying that it's okay to use violence if you're in a situation which may requre it, and it is not going to be assault or murder. Always try to treat people with curtosy even if they don't deserve respect.

 

This is the mark of Meksilon.

[Joshi]

okay, almost all of what you've said there proves what i have said before and yet you don't seem to understand that you are doing this. you are basically saying that iof needed, violence should be used to maybe stop a rape (for example). in other words, the end (no rape) has justified the means (violence). on it's own, violence is bad, but when done for a purpose as to help people, it fine. the end has justified the means. and yes, every man has the right to a fair trial if a court of law. but this is ethics. ethics says that every man should be tried fairly, and to an extent this is true. but if a man is guilty and not convicted, then something is wrong here and therefore ethics has resulted in a negative outcome. i'm not saying that this can be fixed, we all know that the justice system isn't perfect and yet it is run on a system of ethics. try and explain that.

 

"Take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet yet you act as if there is some ideal order in the world, as if there is some rightness in the universe in which it may be judged." William Door

[Meksilon]

Originally posted by Neil Joshi

you are basically saying that iof needed, violence should be used to maybe stop a rape (for example). in other words, the end (no rape) has justified the means (violence).

No that's not what I said at all. Then end has not justified the means here at all. I said violence is not inherantly bad, it's how it's used that can cause it to be bad - or in otherwords if you misuse it like misusing alchole say that, it CAN be used in a wrong way. But a glass of beer isn't wrong on its own, understand?

 

So it's not the ends which have justified the means at all, but rather the means which has the potential to disjustify its use.

but if a man is guilty and not convicted, then something is wrong here and therefore ethics has resulted in a negative outcome.

Very few people will agree with me, but I think we should be tried guilty until proven innocent, in my oppinion it works much better. A tougher law enforcement system makes it harder for people to break the law. If you look at the countries like German, France and Japan which use this system, you can see it works better. Some people will argue though that this is an invasion of your rights, but I personally do not beleive so.

 

You have capital punnishment, we don't. I do, however, beleive in capital punnishment. Maybe not to the extent that America uses it, but serial killers, rapiests, etc - basically if they are never going to be released anyway.

 

This is the mark of Meksilon.

[Joshi]

Okay, so first yes, you’re right, I don't agree with guilty until proven innocent. That basically means that I was the one who flew into the twin towers because you have no evidence that I didn't. I know there is a line somewhere to make sure this doesn't happen in this sort of system, but no matter how much it does to crime, it is a bad way to live.

 

And since when did beer come into this. Don’t complicate things further. The act of violence on its own is wrong. There is no arguing with the fact that it is wrong. But if violence is used in to stop more violence (okay, bad example considering it would kind of be contradictory, to stop you from hurting that person, I’ll hurt you, either way, someone is getting hurt). But say violence is used to stop a murder, the intentions there would be good and therefore you will foresee a good coming out of this. You will have already seen the end and therefore the means is justified. Remember, intentions are what we see as being the outcome and so the end can justify the means before the act itself.

 

I see that you have not directly discard my ‘ethics can be wrong’ statement. Therefore I’m assuming that you agree that in some circumstances, ethic can result in bad things.