razorace Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk I understand the concept of dark Jedi using their anger to help them in battle. I just don't see any direct evidence of the 'Rage' force power as seen in MP being used in the movies... [/Quote] I totally disagree. All the Dark Jedi seem to use negative emotions in their fighting. Their taunting could be for their own benifit (boost their own anger). Ep. V - Luke v. Vader. Vader is as cool as a cucumber. IMO - No Rage. Actually at the end of the fight, when Vader goes on the offensive. He's obviously drawing on his anger. Don't have time to point out anything else. Anyway, we've already discussed the whole saber throw issue, here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tosh_UK Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 The good thing about saber throw is the fan boy trying to look cool walking up to you with saber off.. here have this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Originally posted by Tosh_UK The good thing about saber throw is the fan boy trying to look cool walking up to you with saber off.. here have this You're right. It's worth leaving in just for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Originally posted by razorace I totally disagree. All the Dark Jedi seem to use negative emotions in their fighting. Their taunting could be for their own benifit (boost their own anger). Actually at the end of the fight, when Vader goes on the offensive. He's obviously drawing on his anger. lol - how did I know you were going to say that? Razor, if you had read my point properly, you would see that I don't doubt that Dark Jedi's draw their power from negative emotion... Light Jedi's draw on emotions of Calm and Peace. So surely we should have a Force Peace button! The Jedi could stick up two fingers and offer you a daisy-chain necklace! And when Darth Vader 'apparently' uses Rage in Ep.V - you mean that bit where he turns red, suddenly becomes invincible and his saber attacks are suddenly twice as fast?! Oh yeah - stupid me! How could I have missed that?! Why can't you make any distinction between the emotional flow of a particular movie scene and the mechanics of the fight?! Yet again Razor, you simply ignore any valid points I make. Why don't you just state the real reason your against the removal of things like Saber Throw or Rage. Movie Realism has nothing to do with it... ...you just don't think anything should be taken out of the basic MP game - end of story... It would save a lot of wasted discussion if you just said that in the first place! I could come up with whole pages of valid reasons why certain powers should be taken out - and you'd just ignore them all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 I'm just pointing out that Rage and Saber Throw has some movie basis. They've obviously aren't very faithful to the movies. Anyway, both need to retooled (and not totally removed) to be truer to the movies. For example, Rage doesn't make you invicinible or glow red lightning but it does seem to boost your strength and speed. The emotional flow of the characters IS relavent to the fight. I'm not sure quite how we can emulate that yet, but it is doable. Personally, I kind of like a "get mad" skill (I've called it "Call on the Dark Side") that boosts your abilities but at a serious price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Razor, Well, this does make a pleasent change. At least you've given my arguments some credit! Kudos to you my man! I'm certainly not against having some kind of ability which draws on dark power that isn't so 'extreme' as force rage - like you say... The thing is though, I would say that any of the force powers you see Jedi use in the films are actually examples of using positive or negative emotions. Powers like Grip and Lightining directly hurt and damage somebody - which is strictly forbidden for light jedi (as Yoda says - the force is for knowlwdge and defense, never for attack) because it's directly tapping into negative emotions. And dark jedi can't use - say - Force Heal because that requires letting go of your feelings of hate and aggression... So - my overall point is - I don't think you nessesarily need specific angry or peaceful force powers, because this is basic part of all powers. It's a fundemental part of being either a dark or light jedi... But again, I have no problem with some kind of 'angry' button which - I donno - made your attacks slightly more damaging, but left your defense slightly more open or something - in principle anyway. But one thing I would say is that I wouldn't see this is as an exclusively Dark Jedi ability. From my earlier post, I think overall, it's actually Light Jedi that have more often appeared to get noticably wound up while saber fighting. I would see this as a neutral trait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azymn Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 On rage and the dark side, just for the record: From: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/darthmaul/index.html "Kenobi, enraged, attacked Maul. This barrage was deflected by Maul who used Obi-Wan's touching of the dark side as a conduit for a Force attack; using the Force, Maul pushed Obi-Wan into a deep mining pit." And from: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/obiwankenobi/index.html "The dark warrior, Darth Maul, used his incredible speed, rage and his double-ended lightsaber to fend off both Jedi." And from: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/lukeskywalker/index.html "There, the Emperor planned to turn Luke to the dark side by goading his hatred and forcing the young Jedi to kill his father, thus sealing his future as the Emperor's student. The Emperor almost succeeded; in a fit of rage, Luke viciously wounded Vader. His thoughts and feelings recollected, Skywalker refused the Emperor's promised power. The Emperor, enraged, used the dark side to cast deadly lightning at the young Jedi." So i have some time on my hands here at work. And on topic...true, Light Jedi can just absorb lightning...but that's if they choose to select Absorb as a power. Now they have the option of trying to block it manually with their saber. On the other hand, Dark Jedi won't usually be equipped with Force Absorb. So the ONLY real defense they have against Lightning is their saber. EDIT: Force Heal intuitively seems like Lightside power, but this link says something interesting about it: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/exarkun/index.html "There, ancient Sith spirits tried Kun's resolve. His body was crushed in a cave-in of tons of rocks, and Kun could not call upon the Force to help himself. Yet, the dark side offered what the Force couldn't. By giving into his fear and rage, Kun was able to heal himself and clear the obstacles. He emerged from the caverns transformed, fueled by the dark side of the Force." That's Exar Kun, Sith Lord, who called on the dark side to heal himself because the "Force" couldn't??? Anyone have some insight on this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Azymnn, My, you have been busy! Notice the last bit of the last quote: The Emperor, enraged, used the dark side to cast deadly lightning at the young Jedi.". Here, rage is used for a quite seperate power - lightning. I guess this demonstrates the crux of my point: I don't see 'Rage' as something a Dark Jedi just turns on or off as a seperate force power. Rage and hate and anger are basic emotions and drives that Dark Jedi use for ALL their powers. These emotions are CONSTANT for the Dark Jedi. They purposefully cultivate and harness these feelings. Any time a Dark Jedi is winning over an opponent, they are obviously full of hate and anger. In game terms, it's actually who's playing the game better...! Conversely, a light Jedi's power comes from constantly keeping these emotions in check. As they do, they gain access to different powers that the Dark Jedi cannot harness. Whenever a Light Jedi manages to get pushed over by a Dark Jedi's push attack, you can blame it on the fact that the Light Jedi wasn't properly controlling his feelings. But in the end, these are all conceptual ideas which don't nessesarily HAVE to have any direct equivalent force power for you to activate with a button on your keyboard...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly Geezer Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk Ep. IV: Vader v OB1 - Slow, methodical combat. Both looked as calm as eac-other. IMO - No Rage hardly conclusive, since Vader has no face and we have no way of otherwise seeing "how he feels" unless someone else tells us. Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk Ep. V - Luke v. Vader. Vader is as cool as a cucumber. IMO - No Rage. Vader gets pissed off at two points, and at both, Luke is on the defensive. When Luke stings him, Vader has decided enough is enough and (making plenty of "Rrrrrr!" sounds) he ends the duel in 2 seconds. Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk Ep. VI. Luke v. Vader. Again, Vader is as cool as a cucumber. "You are unwise to LOWER YOUR DEFENSES!" Bshhhhh ZZZZ WOW ZZ SHRAAAAAACK SKT SKT SKT, SKTTTTTTTTTTTT, BZT! Sounds angry to me. Although I thought Vader lost on purpose as it were. Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk Ep. I Darth Maul v. Qui-Gon & OB1: The only time anybody is looking like he's getting actually 'angry' is OB1 near the end Have you ever actually seen the character Darth Maul? He looks like an inferno of freshly squeezed anger. Almost any lore referring to Maul talks about rage and anger or hate. Maul's early lore states one time he got so angry at Darth Sidious he nearly killed him in lightsaber combat. This would be impossible if anger was not boosting his combat skills. Maul's "Sith Intensity" in combat is also how he is a superior fighter to both Obi Wan and Qui Gon. On a side note, when Obi Wan got angry, he briefly touched the Dark Side. This conduit allowed Maul to use a force attack, which was when he shoved him over the edge. Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk Proper Dark Jedi though, use their anger - sure - but it's CONTROLLED anger. Not suddenly moving twice as fast and swinging the saber round like they just downed a bag of sugar!! Actually yes it is. When discussing Mace Windu's fighting style, it is noted that he approaches but is careful to never cross into Sith Intensity. His style depends on emotion, but he keeps his anger just below the point of explosion. It is extremely dangerous, and one of the reasons his style is almost never used by other Jedi. When Sith fight like a Sith, they are a burning ocean of malice. They can't necessarily control themselves. I'm not trying to convince you to put Rage into your mod, only to show you how it exists in the movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk Well, this does make a pleasent change. At least you've given my arguments some credit! Kudos to you my man! Nah, you're just assuming my disagreement with your Stays/Gone policy on the game's Force powers as "not listening to your arguement". The thing is though, I would say that any of the force powers you see Jedi use in the films are actually examples of using positive or negative emotions. See, a meta-view of the Force always comes into the discussion. So - my overall point is - I don't think you nessesarily need specific angry or peaceful force powers, because this is basic part of all powers. It's a fundemental part of being either a dark or light jedi... I'm not sure about this one. Dark Siders have been shown to do or at least attempt "Light Side" powers, specifically "Force Heal" (In some of the KOTOR Comics and Vader in the movie novels). But it's very difficult to tell using onscreen references since we don't know how well the "normal" side can use its powers. We know that Vader couldn't heal himself with the Dark Side but we have no clue how well a Light Sider can heal himself. Same for Lightning, Dark Siders can do it but we have no clue how well a Light Sider could do Lightning...if at all. Personally, I believe your emotional/mental is your conduit to a certain side of the Force and that connection grants you powers. When using negative emotions makes it easy to do negative behavior/Force, and visa versa. Doing something against the "nature" of the emotion is difficult just like doing something that goes against your own nature/emotional state is difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Damn thread hijackers... On the topic of this thread, yes, that's possible, but might screw up the gameplay a little, since blocking it could become so easy. What would be cooler is a grip/lighting combo effect. In SP, you can hold down level 2 lightning and level 3 grip to produce exactly the effect seen in Episode II. I don't see why you couldn't rework lightning to be grip with an EFX file (crude example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I 'm pretty sure a EFX hack wouldn't work. To do that sort of change would require some gameplay code work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 As Emon says, we are indeed thread hijacking. So I'm gonna put down my gun, step out of the car and and let this thread carry on down the highway... I've started a new thread for us to continue the debate if you like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Bah, almost none of the Force powers in the movies are accurately reflected in the games... except maybe Speed and Jump, Push, etc. Grip is a slow choke, not a hovering thing. Luke uses Rage on Vader, and Vader uses it on Luke in Bespin, and Obi-Wan uses it on Maul in ANH. But of course it doesn't look the same and doesn't have the same down to 1 health thing. etc etc. Protection would be what allowed the Jedi to survive what would have killed lesser mortals (getting rammed by a huge arena monster, blasted by ship guns/rockets, falling a great distance, etc.). Vader throws his saber in ROTJ, 'nuff said. ; ) Yoda "Absorbs" Dooku's lightning in AOTC. I'll give you drain, so far we haven't seen it used. Its the only non-movie power in JK2, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepyb3ar Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Personally, i don't think u can use the force to force a rage. its purely the person's feelings at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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