Republic Units for SWGB2 - Poll

[Darth Windu]

luke - i have never suggested that half of the units be generic. Those i suggested to be generic with multipliers were-

1. Worker

2. Medic

3. Trooper

4. Rifle Trooper

5. Commander

 

The reason being is that for all civs, they do basically the same thing, although of course for each civ they are slightly different.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Look at Sith's Template. And mine. And Vostok's(when he'll show us). We, of course all have laser troopers. But the Laser troopers all have different purposes and that's what makes them unique. I see your Trooper is basic infantry. well me for the wookiees and Naboo I have two melee units that serves as basic infantry and laser troopers for the rebs. Of course similarities can be found within different civs but we can do better then basic multipliers. And Vostok is right. Now that you have 5 basic generic units, I don,t see how much processor power you'll really save.

[Sithmaster_821]

Yeah. In mine (so far), the CF has 2 laser trooper units, and the Gungans have one quite unique one, IIRC.

[Darth Windu]

luke - fine, they are all now totally unique. Of course this doesnt change any of their stats, but they are now unique instead of generic with multipliers. Happy?

Also, be careful about using melee units as the main troopers. Remember that it is cheap to give someone a gun, but you will have a lot (and i mean A LOT) of casulties if you charge gun-carrying enemies with melee units.

 

Sith - frankly i dont see the point of having 2 laser troopers, but still...

In my idea for SWGB2, no two units are the same. Every unit is stronger or weaker in different areas than other units, which helps to make the civs unique.

[lukeiamyourdad]

windu- I know you've never played starcraft but I'll use that as a point anyway. Zealots and zerglings we're both melee units but they we're well balanced so you won,t suffer to many casualties(except that the zergling is so cheap that you can simply mass hundreds of them and send them to possible suicide)

[Darth Windu]

luke - what im trying to say is that for any amred force, there will be a number of limiting factors to how large an army/navy/airforce you can have, and with the army, normally it is a lack of people. I cant see any civ in SWGB2 wanting to simply throw away infantry in melee attacks on ranged infantry. The only unit that would be capable of handling that sort of mission would be the Jedi/Sith.

[lukeiamyourdad]

wookiee berserkers, royal crusaders, mounties, geonosian warriors...example from SWGB1 which we're well balanced and worked perfectly...an everything can be balanced out. almost everything. What do you think the basic infantry's range is? A sniper one? geez...they won't shoot that far early in the game. And my wookiee melee basic infantry was made to represent their old hand to hand combat. and Naboo's is just to make their basic infantry weak.

[Sithmaster_821]

Windu, melee units add depth and fun to the game. Of course laser troopers would own them, cause thats what counters melee infantry. But melee infantry tend to be fast, thus making them excellent counters to those units that arent as fast-like buildings, heavies, and mechs.

[CorranSec]

Windu... regardless of the individual merits of melee/ranged units, you simply don't seem to understand the concept of uniqueness.

Unique is not simply a basic guy-with-gun with different art and stats for different civs. Unique is having a completely different unit.

One civ has a basic guy with a gun, medium range. The next has a long-range sniper. The next is a fast, cheap (throwaway) melee unit. The next has a pair of pistols which enable him to fire at two units at a time. The next is amphibious (can cover land and water). And so on.

All of these have practical purposes and could be tailored to fit with the civs and with gameplay. It's just a matter of imagination and ingenuity, things which you don't seem to be bothering with.

A particular unique unit 'class' (eg basic trooper), although it has the same purpose (all-round infantry), can have many different designs and abilities which make it good in a particular way. One could have splash damage, the next could be poisoned (damage over time), the next could fire at air as well as ground, and so on. The possibilities are endless, and our combined imagination should provide an endless supply of ideas. It's simply a matter of thinking outside your generic boundaries and getting into the realms of uniqueness.

[Admiral Vostok]

Nice post, Corran.

 

Now Windu, for such the "expert" at modern warfare that you claim to be, you should know that melee units have a valid place. Why do you think troops in WWII had bayonets? Close combat is certainly a major part of warfare even in the age of guns. But let's not forget we are talking about Star Wars here... in which case there are even better examples in the Grass Plains Battle with Gungans b!tch-slapping Battle Droids.

 

Now for various reasons in an RTS we can't have a unit that carries a gun but still gets a bit of a punch-up in now and then. So it seems reasonable that we split some units to be solely melee units. As we've seen from SWGB2, this works fine.

 

Also, lets not forget it is Star Wars, and not real life. In real life, we humans may have a preference for ranged combat over melee. This wouldn't necessarily hold true for alien races. Having the Wookiees' basic trooper unit as a melee unit makes perfect sense. The Wookiee race is a large, strong, aggressive species. Surely those traits that come naturally to them would be put to far better use in close-quarters than at range. Melee Wookiees would be much more effective than ranged Wookiees. Wookiees are known for pulling people's arms out of their sockets, not picking them off from a distance. Wookiees have a clear advantage over other races in close-combat that they would not otherwise have in shoot-out, so why waste these advantages?

 

All evidence cannot be ignored and points to Windu being wrong.

[Darth Windu]

sith - i agree that melee units are fun and should be in the game. What im saying, however, is that they shouldnt be the basic infantry unit for any civ.

 

corran - the cheapest and easiest way to get an armed force is to give someone a gun. It will always be that way, and so hence every civ would have the 'guy with gun' unit as their BASIC infantry unit. Each would have different strengths and weaknesses, and of course there would be a variety of unique units to supplement them.

 

vostok - the bayonet is an obselete relic of wars of old. Modern bayonets are simply stand-alone knives, and it would be very, very, very rare for a soldier to resort to a melee weapon such as a knife rather than fire at the enemy using an Assault Rifle, Pistol or Submachine Gun. I would also like to point out that people are the main resource in combat. All modern western armies would prefer to loose equipment and save their personel rather than lose some personel.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Windu: For god sakes windu! This is a f****** game! It isn't WWII simulation! IT'S STAR WARS! Ewoks won with rock and sticks(and a stolen AT-ST), Gungans engaged into melee combat with Battle droids like Vostok pointed out.

 

About the bayonet: The bayonet was used during the falkland island conflict by Great Britain. The soldiers would charge into battle with their bayonet and fear caught the ranks of Argentina's army. Seeing a guy yelling and charging at you with a bayonet is much more effective then you think.

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu: You seem to have totally ignored all my Star Wars evidence, which is understandable since it gives me such a sound case.

 

Think about it from a Wookiee's perspective: I'm bigger, tougher, stronger and meaner than a human. Should I run up to him and pull his arms off, or lower myself to his level of weakness by shooting at him?

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - You have a point there. which is why i have included melee units in my idea, such as the Wookiee Beserker, Jedi/Sith Knight, Jedi Master, Gamorean Guard etc.

 

BUT look at it this way-

1. Why does Chewy use a Bowcaster if he doesnt need it?

2. How does an army with only hand-to-hand weapons stop large armoured vehicles?

 

As another example, in ep6, chewy destroys a Scout-trooper on his speeder. If Wookiees were only melee, that scout would have escaped. Think about it. It makes sense to have your basic infantry projectile-equipped and then have an elite squad of melee units.

 

luke - the Falklands was over 20 years ago.

[lukeiamyourdad]

20 yrs is not such a long time... you didn't get my point anyway.

 

Now now who said that wookiees would only have melee units???

 

Why did you include berserkers if you don't think they can get destroy large armoured vehicles?

[CorranSec]

If Vostok has a point, and you've already included melee units, then what is one more, especially one more that would fit the character of a civ and increase its uniqueness?

 

1. Chewbacca uses his bowcaster, sure. But Chewie is not a Wookiee (spelling suggestions appreciated, Vostok) trooper, and Chewie is far better known for his hand-to-hand prowess that his ranged weaponry. Considering that we are taking Chewie as something like the model Wook, basic troopers using melee makes quite a lot of sense.

2. How does an army with only hand-to-hand weapons stop large armoured vehicles? I wouldn't know, Windu, and we'll never get a chance to test it, because the Wookiees aren't going to only have melee weapons, and nobody ever said that.

 

Chewie also busts into an AT-ST, kills the crew and captures it with his bare hands, I daresay. Back me up here, Vostok, being walking dictionary of SW movie facts and all...

[Admiral Vostok]

Corran: kudos on the correct spelling of Wookiee and thanks for the compliment about being a walking dictionary of SW movie facts (though I'd prefer the term encyclopedia). You are also quite right about Chewie's taking of the AT-ST.

 

Windu: No-one is suggesting not giving the Wookiees any ranged weaponry at all. That would be totally against the movies, as we know the Wookiees have a very unique ranged weapon in the form of the Wookiee Bowcaster. What we are suggesting is that the basic Wookiee trooper be a melee trooper. There will be a more expensive, more advanced trooper carrying a bowcaster, but the first available trooper is a melee trooper.

 

This makes perfect sense. Bowcaster are far more expensive than anything a melee unit would be equipped with. Also, while you did point out all the times Chewie's Bowcaster came in handy, you completely ignored how effective Chewie could be wihout his Bowcaster. Think of the time he sent a prison block guard flying the length of the room with one swipe, or the time he took on several stormtroopers at a time in a fit of rage before Han was frozen, or even his throttling of Lando. Wookiees may not be the smartest creatures in the Galaxy, but they sure wouldn't be stupid enough to totally waste their natural strength by complete reliance on ranged weaponry.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Hey Wookiees are very smart creatures!

 

They can repair anything, they can fly ships they can speak...it'S that they don't wear clothing that they aren't smart...

[Sithmaster_821]

You guys all realize that you're arguing about pointless matters. No one gives two sh*ts about the "basic infantry unit". There isn't a "basic infantry unit", just some infantry that are ranged and some that are melee. It doesn't matter what you guys consider the "standard" unit of each class, cause they're all going to be used regardless.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - i would go the other way around. You speak of the cost of weapons, but what of the cost of lives and training? It is cheaper to build a rifle then it is to train someone to use it.

 

Also, note in ep2 that the Jedi, the best melee fighters by a large margain, took about 80% casulties in their battle with projectile-equipped opponents.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Windu, in ep2 the Jedi were vastly outnumbered getting shot at from every angle.

 

 

i would go the other way around. You speak of the cost of weapons, but what of the cost of lives and training? It is cheaper to build a rifle then it is to train someone to use it.

 

I don't see how this is suppose to counter Vostok's argument...

[Sithmaster_821]

Yeah, but Windu, once the melee units close ranks with the ranged once, their superior strength and armor usually defeats the weaker projectile infantry.

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu: Luke's Dad and Sith just said exactly what I'm going to say but I'll say it again anyway in the hope we get the point across.

 

In a pitched battle like the Grass Plains Battle or even the Battle of Geonosis, you are correct in that a single Wookiee would do well to be ranged or else he will get killed before he gets into close combat. However, let's not forget he is part of an army. So let's do some comparisons to examine the effectiveness of a melee Wookiee when compared to a ranged Wookiee.

 

survivability of melee Wookiee = survivability of ranged Wookiee

killing ability of melee Wookiee > killing ability of ranged Wookiee

cost of melee Wookiee < cost of ranged Wookiee

 

The ranged Wookiee is just as likely to die from shooting attacks as his close-combat counterpart is, but the melee guy is both cheaper and better at killing. So which is the smarter choice?

 

Of course the Wookiee army will consist of both ranged and melee Wookiees. But to totally leave out the melee component is to reduce the Wookiee's killing capacity greatly. Also, not all battles are pitched battles like the Grass Plains Battle. A Wookiee army battling in the Battle of Endor, or for that matter on their home planet(!) would benefit greatly from their melee troopers, where the melee Wookiees can use the cover of the forest too reach their enemies unscathed.

 

Clearly the melee Wookiee is the most valuable part of a Wookiee army, and therefore should be the first trooper type available to a Wookiee civilisation in SWGB2.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - actually, you are wrong with some of those. It is actually-

 

survivability of melee Wookiee < survivability of ranged Wookiee

killing ability of melee Wookiee > killing ability of ranged Wookiee

cost of melee Wookiee > cost of ranged Wookiee

 

Sith - you have a good point there, if the Wookiee melee infantry closed with the enemy projectile infantry, they would rip the enemy to sheds. The problem, however, if the actual closing. You have to get a group of melee units to get really close before they can do any damage, and while they are doing that, THEY will get ripped to shreds.

 

luke - that was a game, in games such as that, you are always overpowered when compared to your enemy.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Windu you totally ignored Vostok's point about Endor and Kashyyk.

 

In such environment, melee units are by far better then most ranged laser units. Using melee weapons gives you the element of surprise while laser weapons give away your position. wookiees can then do intense hit-and-fade strikes that will be more powerful then any ranged assault of the same style.

 

Also might I say your talking as if we would send 1 melee wookiee trooper against an entire army alone.

 

In this case the survival rate of the melee wookiee is just the same as a ranged one. It makes little difference unless you totally outrange enemy units. You said it yourself, a melee unit if it has closed on an enemy will totally rip him to shreds. Now this is the same. while a ranged basic infantry wookiee unit does more damage from a range, the melee unit him will certainly lose hp rushing against it's enemy but when he will reached his enemy he'll kill him in less time then a ranged one.

 

Also note that a melee wookiee would cost less. Wookiees since their childhood know how to hunt, use their claws attacking with their bare hands and melee weapons. They do not need further training which makes their cost lower then the one of a ranged wookiee.