txa1265 Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 I have just finished replaying JK (that's right, JK1 ...) and am in the middle of MotS, and have some thoughts. This is the first time I actually played JK on 'Dark Side', it is also the first time I've played through since JKII. I've played bits and pieces, but the last time I played through was my DF / JK / MotS marathon leading up to the release of JKII. - All I had to do to be 'dark' was kill everything in sight. Not much different than when I've played light side and killed *almost* everything in sight, except the few scattered civilians. - I like Force Throw from JK. It really helped me sustain my Dark Side affiliation - I used it whenever possible. I would sometimes QuickSave, enter a room to look for debris while getting knocked from blaster fire, reload and enter the room tossing debris ... fun! I had it bound to the 'front' thumb button on my Intellimouse Explorer (where I have Push in JKII, Pull is the back thumb button on both) - and found binding it made it more useful for me. - I always like secret areas, and like getting the 'extra star', I just didn't like having to remember all of the secrets to get that one star ... So what do I want in Jedi Academy? - Give me tons of choices. The more the merrier ... I know there is a ROI target out there for you somewhere, but do as much as possible. - Make my 'choices' mean something. If I kill 5% of enemies on a level, I should get a 'light side' reward compared to someone who killed ~75% but spared all neutral/friendly NPC's. Similarly, if you kill just about everything alive, you should get a nice Dark Side bonus. - My thoughts on the 'bonus' system? Getting a certain % of secret stuff, or 'exploration bonuses', should give you an 'end mission bonus'. My thought for this would be a '+' applied to force power(s) of your choice. The impact would be to have the Force Power last 5% longer and take 5% less mana. Similarly, there could be a 'true to the light side' or 'true to the dark side' bonus as I mentioned, and that would be applicable to certain powers - perhaps be automatically applied. - I want to *choose* stealth. So give me the tools - like 'persuasion'. Let me distract a room full of people and sneak past them, let me grip to knock someone out, or even be able do a non-ignited saber 2nd function to club someone unconscious. - I want to slice rooms full of emnemies to ribbons ... in fact it is the same room as above. This is on my next playthrough. My point - let me CHOOSE. - While I'm choosing things, remember Yavin Canyon. That was so much more fun to play than the MoHAA 'Tiger Tank' levels - and a lot of it was because of the choices provided. (Sure, some was because an AT-ST is much more fun to drive than a WWII tank - Character choices as stated many times. - Improved graphics, models, animations and physics. - Include some of the cool music from the new movies. - Clear deliniation of the sabers and styles. I was actually pleased with this in JKII - yellow was almost the 'starter' stance, from which you went to Type III (Blue) or Type V (Red). You knew which did what, and could choose to suit your style. I am interested in what advantage will keep me with a single saber all game long. - Clear light / dark path, more gameplay interaction based on your choice than in JK. If I fall to the dark side, someone else should be able to quickload my game and know very quickly based on more than my selection of powers. - Occasional selectable dialogue (like Deus Ex or even Postal 2). - Side tasks for NPC's - like the free the family mission in TPM (ouch, my neck still hurts from playing that perspective). - More mini-games like the 'shoot the ties' in JKII. I'll probably edit this and add more thoughts ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solbe M'ko Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 -Reloading the guns! I can't stress this enough. -Darker feel. Less like prequels, more like EP 4/5 and the EU. -Editing tools included (mapping, models, animations, skins) I already mentioned the rest of the big ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Originally posted by Solbe M'ko -Reloading the guns! I can't stress this enough. -Darker feel. Less like prequels, more like EP 4/5 and the EU. -Editing tools included (mapping, models, animations, skins) I already mentioned the rest of the big ones. I like manual reloads ... I don't know why, but I do. After playing SoFII for a while I found myself mindtricking everyone in sight But seriously, you could get some pretty cool weapons reload animations. As for the feel, there is an entire issue between TOS and the prequels about the darkness and tighter scope of things, which I believe is largely related to TOS being about a small band of rebels against an evil empire putting the final touches on galactic domination, as opposed to the prequels being about the transition to that evil empire from a crumbling beaurocracy (can't you see the 'join now' posters?). You believe in the cause of the rebels, but does anyone feel anymore sympathetic to the plight of the republic than they'd enjoy watching CSPAN for 2.5 hours? (not to dis the movies, AOTC is actually my fave of the series!) But that is besides the point. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 [OK, I'm Mara now in MotS] I'd also like to see a time-based mission in JA, but just one. I think the DOOM_Shields should have been time-based after you whacked Fyyar. Personally I'd like it to be more like 'The Falling Ship' level from JK, where it is now challenging and fun, but quite doable, to get through. As opposed to the 'Self Destruct and Escape' from MotS. I remember first playing it ... I got the boxes all cut, then by the time I surfaced in the switch room ... 10 ... 9 ... you know. So then you know that part, reload, get to the switch room quickly, figure out the switches are a force speed game, get them hit, wonder where to go next ... 10 ... 9 ... Reload. Then realize that it the door that didn't open before underwater, get through, fight the assassin droid ... 10 ... 9 ... Reload. Then get past him to the falling parts, into the corridor ... 10 ... 9 ... Reload. OK, not I see an 'X' way below, how do I ... 10 ... 9 ... Reload. I just drop? Really? Bacta Up, drop. Four switches. Probably another speed trap. Damn, missed it the first time ... 10 ... 9 ... Reload. OK, I think I got it, the ship is coming down. I hope it gets here soon ... 10 ... 9 ... Reload. Maybe I shouldn't fight too many enemies and just take the hits. Finally done! My point is that the level in JK you could reasonably expect to ecplore your way through and finish it. In MotS, I don't see how you could make it without detailed knowledge of the level and a strategy different from other parts. I still find it hard! Part of being immersive is allowing the player to feel that they hold the key to their own success through skills and strategy, not through repeated reloads and memorization. I hope that JA remembers that if they do put in a timed mission. As skill levels increase, time goes down and enemies go up. Oh, that reminds me - I like the assassin droids. They are immune to Persuasion, and explode on destruction. THAT would sure put a pause for you in a saber chase. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Originally posted by Sargasso I'm assuming JO was a commercial success even if it didn't deserve to be, which unfortunately has encouraged LEC and Raven to pound out a new game out of what originally was supposed to be an expansion pack. If they lapped up that, why not this? Ah well. I'm sorry I can't just let this slide. I've worked in the 'real world' for many years, and have managed projects of all sizes. Sometimes the vision of a project and its' scope changes drastically as it is fleshed out. I know this happens in software as well, and therefore with games. I'm sure decision between being a sequel and an expansion was given considerable thought. Look at MoHAA: Spearhead. SP - 9 levels, ~3 hours. MP some maps and stuff. Clearly expansion. MotS was somewhere in between - it was ~half the length of JK, but also offered updates to technology and so on. In today's games it could have easily been a full game. There were rumors of a JKII expansion. I have no direct knowledge of those plans - neither, I assume, do you. However, check the facts - another (by today's FPS standard) very long SP campaign, significant engine upgrades, new character building capabilities, new sabers and styles (this is much more than just adding a new gun to a shooter), non-linear gameplay, full end-to-end story, inclusion of movie characters, expansion from ~3 to ~30 skeletons, and so on. Spearhead started out at $35! At some point they must have said - this is more than just a bunch of new levels or a new minor story. This is a game that truly stands by itself - whether or not JKII existed has no bearing on whether or not JA can exist. JKII was clearly a commercial success. We can debate whether or not it 'deserved to be' or if the reviewers were all smoking crack until we're blue in the face to no end. What I will say is that if there is a significant decline in commercial appeal for JA (which, judging from the various gaming sites, there doesn't seem to be), then the 'second-look' for JKII is closer to your 'crap' estimation than the 85-90% very good/excellent ratings from the gaming industry. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 ok, now im gonna have to replay JK and MotS once i finish X-Wing and Tie-Fighter! thanks VERY much! That falling ship level in JK was awesome. It was actually very easy if you didn't panic (and having evacuation arrows on the wall helped), unfortunately i was dark-sided the first time i got to it, was still slightly in shock from killing Jan, had the spooky voice echoing around about "once you fall to the dark side, forever will it dominate your destiny" and i basically ran around like a headless fool with big crates falling on me until it exploded. it was awesome I agree that stealth SHOULD be an option, but they already said they are taking it out completely (cos they messed it up totally in JO) so i didn't bother mentioning that. The stars for exploration were cool too, although i always thought you should have been able to miss ONE and still get the extra star. Force throw was my fave power too!!! How can you play these games again (better level design, more powers, better plot, more varied enemies, more npcs, better weapons, swimming, sam'n'max etc... ) and say that you prefered JO is beyond me though... i agree with everything apart from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Originally posted by toms I agree that stealth SHOULD be an option, but they already said they are taking it out completely (cos they messed it up totally in JO) so i didn't bother mentioning that. It seems that too many games have levels that are obviously thought of separate to the main plotline, and 'figured into' the game. My biggest examples of this are 'sniper alley' and 'the tank' levels in MoHAA, and the 'forced stealth' levels in MoHAA, RtCW, SoFII and JKII. Stealth can be fun, but having it be so awkwardly inserted into these games when the rest of the time you run around killing everything in sight is foolish, and that's the way it plays. Has anyone seen a good stealth portion in an action FPS? How can you play these games again (better level design, more powers, better plot, more varied enemies, more npcs, better weapons, swimming, sam'n'max etc... ) and say that you prefered JO is beyond me though... i agree with everything apart from that. What I loved most in JKII were the lightsaber and force powers, the saber battles, and the overall battle AI. I gave the story a break, but thought a few minutes of key explanations and extra dialogue in critical places would have gone a long way. Like the fact they started with almost no weapons (guess we should have brought more than a couple of blasters), abandoned Nar Shadda (I tracked Reelo to a remote section of the city ... this is a stronghold of his with almost no populatio ... only thugs), the Valley of the Jedi (although the valley had been 'freed', considerable Force energy remained, which is why it remained secret), and so on. As for weapons, I only cared early on. I liked the early levels (except mine crabs!) as a sort of updated Dark Forces, and after I got the saber I didn't care much. I never got past the fact that I as a Jedi master late in the game (JK), could start at 100/200 against 2 stormtroopers and get taken out by E11 fire. In Cairn Reactor I felt like a Jedi as I came out or a hall, had repeater and blaster fire coming at me all over the place, and was able to square up and deflect it all. In that regard JKII did what it needed - JK was cool *just because* we got a saber. JKII needed to make the saber the coolest weapon ever in a FPS. I think they succeeded, and in doing so made me feel like the Jedi I'd wanted to be since June 1977 (this was well before movies made 90% of their money in 3 weeks ... I think it took 4 weeks for SW to be in 100 theaters). I know I'm in the minority in this regard, but hey, JK/MotS is still my #2 game Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 I know I'm in the minority in this regard... But not alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargasso Posted June 19, 2003 Author Share Posted June 19, 2003 Looks like you've got it all figured out. No need to debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Originally posted by Sargasso Looks like you've got it all figured out. No need to debate. I am old enough to know I don't have anything all figured out. Let me ask you, though: do you like Jedi Outcast? Did you like Dark Forces or Jedi Knight / MotS? Do you like FPS games? Do you like Star Wars at all? I'm sorry to ask, but all of your posts seem very negative and cynical - including the starter to this thread. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonepadawan Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 txa.... you rock. Your one of the only people on this forum who apears to share my viewpoint of the game I salute you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargasso Posted June 19, 2003 Author Share Posted June 19, 2003 Not particularly, loved them all, favorite genre, Yes, in that order. I would agree that many of my posts are critical of LEC/Raven and that I am not optimistic about many of their future products. I, however, am not on trial here nor are guilty of any community infractions that I am aware of. Please leave me alone. I assume if I'm crossing any lines the mods can take appropriate action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Areas that 'feel' bigger than they are: for example, in Doom_Comm, it bothered me that the 'whalodon' of a ship I was on had a massive tram system, yet I could see to the other end before it started moving. I would like to make it a terribly long ride, and move things at high speed - no chance to see the end until you are closer (even if it is just by making it dark). That would add to the 'feeling' of larger levels without making them bigger (or taking more memory). Oh - and Sargasso, I am not putting you on trial, and I apologize for making it seem so. It was just after your last post I wasn't sure how to take your comment, so I searched your posts and found a common theme: JO, and LEC/Raven s*ck, and therefore JA is likely doomed to s*ck. I simply was trying to figure out if you had bad feelings from JO after good DF/JK experience and hoped for better from JA (but weren't optimistic) ... or if you were a troll. My apologies - you didn't cross any lines. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solbe M'ko Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Map scale is always a problem. In the JA trailer, there are a few outdoor arenas (Tatooine) and they look a lot like the ones from Half-Life: tight little area surrounded by cliffs. Ghost Recon had one of the best outdoor map systems I've ever seen in an FPS/Action game, and I would love to see something like that in a SW game, but it just can't fit right now. A good stealth part in a FPS? Hmm... that's actually a bit tough. I'd like to mention something like Splinter Cell or Metal Gear (the original Nintendo games, NOT the new Playstation ones.), but those are games based around stealth, so it isn't really fair. I guess my top 2 stealth sequences in FPSs would have to be: a) Big snake in the pit level from Half-Life. The sound sensitivity was very cool and would be welcome in any new FPSs. b) The chemical plant from Goldeneye for the N64 (which later became one of the greatest Counter Strike maps ever). You could play it all gung-ho and shoot everyone, or you could evade patrols and use your silenced guns. It wasn't a really great level, but it did have that stealth factor to it, without forcing it on the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Deus EX (of course...) not strictly fps, but even if they had taken out all the stats then the level design, weapon selection and AI wuld have allowed you to choose stealth or action most of the time. AvP (1 and 2)... ok, so the way the stealth option is split among the characters is a bit unique to the franchise, but you get marines who aren't stealthy, predators who can be stealthy when they want to be, and aliens who need to use the environment and be stealthy when approaching heavily armed groups... It can be hard to suggest things to improve JA when you loved JK/MotS and were dissapointed by JO without just coming across as moaning about Raven/LEC.... every argument seems to come down to saying "X sucked in JO, they should do it differently... maybe more like JK". However, if the new sam & max game is good i will forgive LEC all the unfinished rubbish they have released recently... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Originally posted by toms DIt can be hard to suggest things to improve JA when you loved JK/MotS and were dissapointed by JO without just coming across as moaning about Raven/LEC.... every argument seems to come down to saying "X sucked in JO, they should do it differently... maybe more like JK". Thanks for saying that - it is very eloquent. Sometimes simple things make very strong points. Most of my thoughts and info come from Single Player. For many people, SP is a pitstop on the way to MP. I think that perspective changes your outlook on the games. I just finished JK & MotS again - the first full time through in nearly 1.5 years (since before JKII). I still really like these games, but have to say that I still put them below JKII on my list. There is something about the visceral feel ... I was playing on my new Dell 8500 laptop, and then reloaded JKII where I had stopped - just before Tavion. I beat her and played through about half of Cairn Dock. There is no question that I enjoy the saber combat infinitely better in JKII than JK1/MotS. Oh well .... to each their own. At least we all agree we want JA to be the best it can be (if only we could agree what that meant ) Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Which was "things that are not likely to be implemented" There are a few things I will likely miss, but wish could be in the game. - Force Throw - I know I have said it as have others. I'll say it again. That would make taking the dark path much more satisfying - More interactive objects. That just seems to be something that the Unreal engine is better at than the Q3 engine - like in Deus Ex. They did a little in JO, I hope they can do more. - An ungodly amount of NPC's - I'd like to feel like Anakin chasing Zam Wessell through the crowd on Coruscant ... ah well, I'll be happy with a few ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burrie Posted June 28, 2003 Share Posted June 28, 2003 Besides the features that have already been implemented, what I personally very much would like to see is a Jedi Academy which we can explore at the start of the game and in-between levels. A few rooms would serve as sparring duels with fellow students, with several students having different skills. Other rooms would serve as training grounds for whatever new Force Powers we'd have. Hell, mayhaps even attend some form of a lecture, or the ability to actually speak with the fellow students would be a very nice feature. Or having a one-on-one with Kyle Katarn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler_Durden Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Ok, here's my idea of what the greatest jedi game ever would be: First of all it would be a game along the lines of morrowind. You start off with little to no skill, essentially a padawan learner. You get to choose the skills which you think might be beneficial to you and your journey to become a jedi master such as stealth, accuracy, speech-maybe something like mind-trick can be learned in time and it would work on some people but not others, or proficiency with your lightsaber. You could also choose your species and gender and you would then build your lightsaber. After all this is done you go on to some basic training. You fight a mock duel with a master learning basic block and parry skills which will increase over time. You then go on to receive your orders or could come back later and explore the planet you're on which would most likely be coruscant. The cool thing is you get a ship early on in the game (jedi starfighter, depending on when the game takes place). Thus you can travel to different planets and the like. While in the ship, the game takes you to a sim type flying, maybe something like the starfighter games. You can set a course to different planets or land on a space station to make repairs or just to check out what's there. When flying you set a course to a planet, hit a button and jump into hyperspace, which could be like a loading screen thus loading up the planet you visit and all the stuff contained therein. Ok so you don't want to take orders from the jedi cousel so early in the game. Maybe you want to become a smuggler or a theif or something along those lines. You can join the smugglers guild and raid ships throughout the galaxy and earn a reputation as a pirate, while throwing your jedi career at the academy away and moving you towards the dark side. Or go and accomplish random tasks such as freeing a colony of slaves and gaining a reputation as a hero thus gaining you favor at the academy and moving you more towards the light side. Alright so maybe you do want to take on a job for the council, you need to go settle a trade dispute between two cities on some obscure planet. When you get there, you can decide how to solve the problem. Will you: A. initiate talks between the governments and help avert further tradgedy B. kill one of the leaders of the opposing governments, thus giving an advantage to one city. Or C. Killing both governments and take the cities as your own. Maybe you chose A, but the problem is one government (the bad one) doesn't want to talk so they attack you, you draw your saber and dice em all. You have accomplished your mission and defeated evil, you gained a level and you can jump higher or you can force push more guys. Now i've stated this would be an awesome game on the boards but a lot of quickie close-minded people told me "that's what galaxies is" and this game isn't possible, well it IS possible and it would also be a SINGLE PLAYER GAME THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING ONLINE. So any naysayers that oppose this and try to change my mind are falling on deaf ears. Now the question is, will Lucasarts EVER make a game that could be as cool and ground-breaking as this? I'm sure they could but only time will tell.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Oh that game is already being made, it's called Star Wars Galaxies of the Jedi: Knights of the Old Academy® Yeah it would be nice to have the massive feel of a MMORPG in a SP game, but AI hasn't progressed enough to be able to give you a liflelike experience offline! And in KOTOR, the fighting system is turn based (too bad), so you'd need the fighting system of JO. The massiveness of Galaxies is pretty dissapointing I heard, only a couple of planets to explore, so different missions will be very much alike But hey it sounds cool, although this thread was meant for how you wanted JA to be, and that's not an RPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaruGlory89 Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Star Wars Galaxies of the Jedi: Knights of the Old Academy® Umm... shouldn't it be Star Wars Galaxies AND Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler_Durden Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Screw it, if i want it to be a first person adventure type rpg then so be it. I can dream can't i? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Originally posted by Tyler_Durden Screw it, if i want it to be a first person adventure type rpg then so be it. I can dream can't i? While your post is in keeping with the 'letter' of the title (compile fantasy version), the second part of the original poster's message was "... featuring things that are not likely to be implemented but would still by your best estimate be possible to achieve." So I don't think technically you kept in the spirit of the thread, but it seems that between Galaxies, KOTOR and JA, many of us are trying to figure out exactly what we'd want if we could have anything ... so I say go for it ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reprehence Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Along with all the extra NPC's I'd like to have many more maps of the worlds. Imagine being able to visit a planet, but instead of being limited to one or two maps that are followed in a progression - having 10 or 20 maps that one could move freely within. Each map would have its creatures that you could interact with - so if you built a friendship with a barkeep on Nar Shadda in one mission (say by running a side mission in which you took out some extortionists) - later on in another mission you could contact him for information. To build a galaxy one would build 100 or so planets. The jedi council would send you on missions - diplomatic/courier/investigate/body guard/search and destroy. Maybe at some point you would become the jedi guardian of a system or set of systems. Growth in force abilities would rely on using them - wasn't dungeon siege based on this model? So if you use a lot of push/pull/jump/seeing etc. the power would grow as you went along. Of course it would take you a while to become a real master - so if you decided to turn to the dark side too early, some jedi would show up to take you out - you could run and hide and build your strength in a more remote area. Guess these are considered RPG elements - but I think as long as you keep the saber/force combat system the same it would work. As far as space combat - what about attaching an engine like Freelancer? It has a whole map of intersting places to visit (if you could acutally get out of the ship and roam) - a trade and alliance system - and the ability to create some pretty nice large scale battles. There's already a SW-TC for it I believe - the main drawback would be you'd have to wait while the space combat engine loaded and vice versa - call it charging the engines. So you need an engine to track what's going on in the world - a database that would maintain it's state as you moved around. You'd also probably need two engine's - one for fps and one for space and someway to translate the pertinent data from one to another. You'd also need a great heaping helping of content creation. All of this would happen in a SP environment - unless you had some friends you wanted to invite in - so not MMORPG - so you wouldn't have to run all the maps etc. all at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 It would give problems, since a lot of FPS players don't like to have to fly their ship from one planet to another!! It would move the focus. And while it's a great idea, that has never been incorporated in a game, I don't think any developer will risk making such a game Oh and Tyler_Durden, I didn't disagree with you, I just said you want it all!! It's a very nice idea, and I think everyone is waiting for a game that gives you virtually all the freedom you'd want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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