BloodRiot Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Would you rather have JA set in the golden ages of the republic where Jedi and Sith were numbered in thousands? For those who consider the theme alot I think it would justify the presence of a sith threat much better. JK did a better job regarding storyline by only having 7 dark lords at the expense of having fewer saber duels in SP. JO's reborn...well what can I say... dueling wise they were fun...storywise... they didnt convince me. True jedi vs true sith... that would sound much better. Dont you think? I have no gripes with JA being set in the new republic time... the time near the movies seems too limited while in the golden ages one could come up with a totally new storyline without people find it weird how so many sith or dark jedi and jedi survived vader and palpatine. Regardless of what anyone may think about luke founding the yavin academy and the batch of jedi being born... I just think better stories would come up in the golden ages. This isn't a critic on JA but instead a thread where i wanted to think about how JA would be if it was set in the golden ages. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burrie Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 If you want a game like that, I'd suggest Knights of the Old Republic. There, I've said it, it's done. Now to continue on... For those who consider the theme alot I think it would justify the presence of a sith threat much better. JK did a better job regarding storyline by only having 7 dark lords at the expense of having fewer saber duels in SP. JO's reborn...well what can I say... dueling wise they were fun...storywise... they didnt convince me. I personally would disagree with the Reborn. At first, I have to admit that I was fairly skeptic about having an army of Dark Jedi in the New Republic era. I was afraid that they'd go with a cult that no one had sensed before-gimmick. However, by utilising an aspect of Kyle's past, the Valley of the Jedi, they gave a very nice excuse why you would have various lightsaber duels. Jerec was powerhungry, he wanted all the power of the Valley for himself. Desann was less powerhungry, and perhaps even somewhat smarter... instead of taking all the power to himself, he divided this power to some of his loyal followers which granted them a basic instinct in the Force. As you may have noticed, the Reborn aren't exactly the strongest Force Users that you'll ever come across. I personally found Tavion and Desann, two trained Dark Jedi, to be a greater challenge than these 'artificial' Dark Jedi.The Reborn were a challenge in their own right, but this was more because of their "Cortosis Armor" rather than their skills. I have no gripes with JA being set in the new republic time... the time near the movies seems too limited while in the golden ages one could come up with a totally new storyline without people find it weird how so many sith or dark jedi and jedi survived vader and palpatine. To be honest, I am currently as skeptic about this new threat as I was with the Reborn. With the Reborn, they utilised a well-enough explanation as to why there was an army, but this time, I see these "heartless"(they kinda resemble the enemy from Kingdom Hearts) Dark Jedi that I'm almost afraid that we WILL have a cult of Dark Jedi this time... a cult that has been strangely absent all this time. But Raven managed to overcome my skeptical thoughts and give a good explanation as to why we had a batch of Dark Jedi to fight. I certainly hope that they will provide us with a good explanation the second time. Regardless of what anyone may think about luke founding the yavin academy and the batch of jedi being born... I just think better stories would come up in the golden ages. Well, better stories would come up in the golden ages perhaps for the Jedi. The NR era still has lotsa room for the non-Jedi folks, if you ask me. And I think that there are still enough stories that can be told in this era with different characters. This isn't a critic on JA but instead a thread where i wanted to think about how JA would be if it was set in the golden ages. I think that Knights of the Old Republic would give you a bright idea as to what you should expect. In fact, I would praise if Raven of Lucasarts would develop a game that would have tie-ins with the Knights of the Old Republic universe. But honestly, it is safer for Lucasarts(I think) to have a game set in a time where there is an established enemy from the movies, namely the Empire and its army of Storm Troopers. Yes, the regular EU-fan would love to fight besides the likes of Ulic Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider, but the regular gamer/movie-goer would simply say "eh?" when reading these names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Originally posted by BloodRiot Would you rather have JA set in the golden ages of the republic where Jedi and Sith were numbered in thousands? Why rather - why not have another game? I had always thought it an interesting possibility to have a 'flashback' game, or an actual time-travel of Kyle back to the past. Since JA, and KOTOR, have come along, my thoughts are more along the lines of an 'old Jedi Academy'. JK did a better job regarding storyline by only having 7 dark lords at the expense of having fewer saber duels in SP. There I disagree. I love JK - I really do. It was my fave game ever until April 5th 2002 (birthday, when my wife and kids got me Jedi Outcast). However, the whole seven dark Jedi nobody knew about, Rahn being 'among' the light Jedi that survived that nobody knew about, all quite close to the original trilogy timeline, when Yoda and ObiWan spoke of 'you will be the last of the Jedi'. Of course, WTF does Yoda know anyway But I let it go and enjoyed the game. JO's reborn...well what can I say... dueling wise they were fun...storywise... they didnt convince me. See, to me it makes more sense that there would be problems with people falling to the dark side during the early days of Luke's Academy. It is fairly well done in the books, and makes some sense to me in the JKII implementation. Dessann is not all-powerful. He is an 'early' darksider, a fairly powerful Jedi, driven to pursue power to avenge past injustice, using dark influences enhanced by the remaining 'power glow' of the valley (no longer infinite power as in JK). He plans galactic domination, and finds easy allies in remnant forces, like Galak bent on power, and easily manipulated pawns he imbues with low-level force sensitivity. But, regardless, it was much more fun having tons of saber battles. True jedi vs true sith... that would sound much better. Dont you think? Sounds cool ... when do we get JK4? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Siraious Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Nicely put Burrie and Mike. I think you two cover it well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodRiot Posted July 2, 2003 Author Share Posted July 2, 2003 Indeed I have to admit that the cult no one has ever known about gimmick woudl be a bit cliché... and you all make good points. Maybe I should make it simpler then since my whole point has just been crushed (I'll make you pay later ) I know about KotOR... but I chose not to mention it... I guess it couldn't be kept out once i mention the Golden Age. I just mentioned this subject cuz I'd luv to play some sort fo part i nthe big saber fights of the old days... the kind of fights we only got a sample at geonosis in ep2. Perhaps even take some part in the defeat of Exar Kun. That would be sweet. JK4 (aka Old Jedi Academy as sugested) anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reprehence Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 "See, to me it makes more sense that there would be problems with people falling to the dark side during the early days of Luke's Academy." That makes good sense - and it is perhaps safe to say that not all the crystals and not all the Reborn were captured by the Jedi Academy - so who knows where the story might lead. I too would like to play a JA type game from the golden ages - anywhere from KOTOR to Ep.I. There is a more established jedi culture to take part in and learn about. I am looking forward to KOTOR - I only wish they would have JA's FPS combat system rather than an RPG one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Of course, what I would really like is to have a FPS game, based around KOTOR times, where you choose light or dark alignment from the beginning, and the entire power struggle of the game plays out based on your choice. Of course, the f'final duel' would still have the two same people ... being that it is a FPS and all ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 the reborn was an ok, but not brilliant, way to introduce new saber wielding foes... i think if they had fleshed the story out a bit better (same goes for dessann) it might have worked a lot better. never had much probelm with the 7 DJs in JK, but that was probably because i loved the game so much... a lot of SW fans moaned about it though. it would seem to make a lot of sense to have a game set in the Eps 1-3 era (as ob1 was supposed to be...) as this would have the advantage of a known era and known characters, as well as the freedom to have a lot more force weilding baddies. I don't like the Ep1-2 era anywhere as near as much as the classic era, but it is a lot less played out in terms of PC games... The ultimate would be a JK-like game where you play Anakin/vader as he hunts down all the Jedi.... Or I always thought Aurra Sing's background story (ex-jedi, bounty hunter, kills jedi to collect lightsabers) would be a great fit for a game. Time travel.... probably not a good idea as it would probably turn the setup into even more of a chessy, star-trek like experience than JO did. However, maybe a game set in two eras, with you controling different characters in each (telling parallel, related plots). THat would be cool, as actions of the golden-age character might affect the missions for the "modern" character... and they could go to town with the levels, having you revisit levels that have been totally changed by the passage of time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 One reason I love the Dark Forces series is because I feel it provides me with the atmosphere of the original trilogy. I like being able to fight the Empire, but at the same time have Jedi elements. I don't mind the Reborn as much as some, and I forgave the little problems because I liked being able to fight against a lightsaber-weilding opponant relatively often. I don't have as much interest is the Old Republic (Although I can't wait for KOTOR), and I would not want the series era to be shifted to that timeframe just to justify giving me more enemies to fight. I think you can come up with a good story that includes Dark Jedi in the New Republic era Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Originally posted by toms the reborn was an ok, but not brilliant, way to introduce new saber wielding foes... i think if they had fleshed the story out a bit better (same goes for dessann) it might have worked a lot better. I agree - I think the plot is pretty good, very good by the seemingly diminished 2002 standards (did the golden age of FPS plots come from 1997 - 2000 with JK, MotS, HL and Deus Ex?). But it is thin in the details in some places. Filling in those details, without changing the game itself, would have made the game more enjoyable and engaging, as I've said since ... last April ... never had much probelm with the 7 DJs in JK, but that was probably because i loved the game so much... a lot of SW fans moaned about it though. Exactly - the game was fun so you went with it. My take on all of the DF series. Time travel.... probably not a good idea as it would probably turn the setup into even more of a chessy, star-trek like experience than JO did. I know ... I cringe at the time travel thought - unless there were something about being linked to another through the force ... still sounds cheesy Anyway, I didn't find JO 'trekkie', not in any negative sense. I actually found it quite Star-wars-y, melding with the few books in the Jedi Academy and other series I've read. And I agree with Prime. The basis of Jedi Outcast is much more plausible in the context of the post-RotJ galaxy, as new force users coming of age would have to chart their own course, and there would certainly be dark influences out there. Bottom line - give me my freakin' lightsaber, construct a reasonable story in *any* timeline, and let me get to killin' Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediLurker Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 I tend to agree with Prime here. I like the fact that the DF series is set in\after the original trilogy. With all the other SW games coming out that revolve around the prequels and the pre-prequel eras, it's nice to have at least one series going with the original timeline and EU associated with that age. I tend to think JK games are going to be the only ones doing so for the near future, though I could be wrong. That said, however, I think Mike said it best. Originally posted by txa1265 Bottom line - give me my freakin' lightsaber, construct a reasonable story in *any* timeline, and let me get to killin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 Bottom line - give me my freakin' lightsaber, construct a reasonable story in *any* timeline, and let me get to killin' Well, when you put it that way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodRiot Posted July 3, 2003 Author Share Posted July 3, 2003 Just a question for all the more EU instructed than I am... what big dark siders are there after ROTJ besides the ones in the JK series and palpatine... and how long will it take before the vong make their appearance? Anyone fancy kicking some Vong butts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burrie Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Pffft, a few note-worthy Dark Siders you ask... from the top of my head... Kueller - New Rebellion Brakiss - New Rebellion, Young Jedi Knights series Barkiss' Dark Jedi pupils - Young Jedi Knight series Hethrir - Crystal Star Joruus C'baoth - Thrawn Trilogy Nightsisters - Courtship of Princess Leia and various other appearances Sedriss and the Emperor's personal cadre - Dark Empire 2 Mara Jade, from a point of view - Dozen of appearances Kam Solusar, although he was redeemed by Luke - First appearance Dark Empire 2 And I'm certain that I've missed a few dozen... as for when the Vong will attack, I can't quite remember when Jedi Academy will start, but I believe that it's about 8-10 years away from the Vong invasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 It's nice to see that, instead of a 'Jedi Purge', we had a 'purge of movie Jedi' and that the 'only two there are, master and apprentice', we have dozens of dark siders running around, waiting their turn to take over the galaxy and not going after each other as is the basis of the whole sith master/apprentice thing ... ... that is why I have a problem with so much EU - makes for good reading, but not a very good singular philosphy and structure. Either there was a Jedi purge or not (with ObiWan and Yoda having done something speacial to conceal themselves), and there were either two major dark-siders around RotJ timeline or not. Sorry ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Siraious Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Was there was a Jedi Purge the thing is that even though it was the choosen one hunting them down he still wasnt all knowing. So a handful of Jedi did servive the Purge, most went into exile and waited for the Force to summon them and I believe that a small number (around 1-4) actually had began some of the earlier resistance groups against the Empire and Vader after the Purge but those Jedi dissapeared. Summary : It was a Purge its just that Vader couldnt find and kill all the Jedi because some where able to go into hiding like Obi Wan and Yoda. The Sith and darksiders or Dark Jedi are slightly different. The sith are cult of dark Jedi and followed their Orders rules, however darksider users and Dark Jedi have no rules as they govern themselves. At the time of Epi 1 - 6 there were darksiders running around however if they made themselves noticed Vader was sent to deal with them. But I assume you knew that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodRiot Posted July 3, 2003 Author Share Posted July 3, 2003 In that case the seven dark jedi from JK are not all that impossible or unlikely if you take most of the EU into account. But keeping it stricktly JA now... maybe original characters would be a wiser choice...there's enough contradiction in the EU as it is. Maybe a rogue group from the academy joins a more powerful darksider or something... maybe something like a sith academy on a remote place like the temple in dromund kaas... it could have a final battle between academies... I dunno... sometimes it's hard to come up with good ideas that dont conflict with the events in the same timeline... If the storyline is good and the characters have depth and are interesting... JA will be a SP hit. I'm a sucker for a good storyline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Siraious Was there was a Jedi Purge the thing is that even though it was the choosen one hunting them down he still wasnt all knowing. So a handful of Jedi did servive the Purge, most went into exile and waited for the Force to summon them and I believe that a small number (around 1-4) actually had began some of the earlier resistance groups against the Empire and Vader after the Purge but those Jedi dissapeared. Summary : It was a Purge its just that Vader couldnt find and kill all the Jedi because some where able to go into hiding like Obi Wan and Yoda. The Sith and darksiders or Dark Jedi are slightly different. The sith are cult of dark Jedi and followed their Orders rules, however darksider users and Dark Jedi have no rules as they govern themselves. At the time of Epi 1 - 6 there were darksiders running around however if they made themselves noticed Vader was sent to deal with them. But I assume you knew that I get all that, but to me it seems a bit of revisionist history to allow interesting, conflicted stories using original trilogy characters in new post-RotJ stories. I suppose we might find out more in EpIII, but I doubt it. There were enough little things in the original trilogy to point to Luke being the last Jedi remaining. Not that there weren't new force-sensitives born all the time, but ones that just happened to know how to train themselves, figure out how to construct lightsabers and so on ... But that is just my inability to simultaneously engage the SW film world and 'suspend disbelief' to appreciate many of the books. That is actually what I like in JA - it makes no presumption of very powerful Dark Jedi pre-existing the fall of the empire. The fall of Dessann to the dark side was more natural - like Kam falling under Exar Kun's influence (although I hated how that series made Luke seem so wimpy). That is why I think the new republic is rich for stories - we know that 'balance' in the force has to allow for dark and light jedi to exist. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 I sort of look at like Lucas does. The movies are canon and they are an entity in and of themselves. The EU stories are a parallel universe, which is seperate and doesn't intrude on what has happened in the movies, but are based on those events. In the movies, there were only two Dark jedi/Sith at the end, and the Emperor was killed by Vader, and so on. In the EU, which Dark Forces is apart of, there were force users under the control of Palpatine that were not Sith, but were under his control. I don't really have a problem with most of the EU, because I view it as a world unto itself, decended from the movies. In my view, having 7 dark jedi to fight is okay, because JK is a part of that parallel universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Originally posted by Prime I sort of look at like Lucas does. The movies are canon and they are an entity in and of themselves. The EU stories are a parallel universe, which is seperate and doesn't intrude on what has happened in the movies, but are based on those events. In the movies, there were only two Dark jedi/Sith at the end, and the Emperor was killed by Vader, and so on. In the EU, which Dark Forces is apart of, there were force users under the control of Palpatine that were not Sith, but were under his control. I don't really have a problem with most of the EU, because I view it as a world unto itself, decended from the movies. In my view, having 7 dark jedi to fight is okay, because JK is a part of that parallel universe. Very well explained - well enough to get through my thick (and old and stubborn) skull. Personally, I play the games truly as that parallel universe. If you try too hard to be faithful, you end up with ... The Phantom Menace game (ouch, my neck hurts!) Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 Personally, I play the games truly as that parallel universe. If you try too hard to be faithful, you end up with ... The Phantom Menace game (ouch, my neck hurts!) me too. seems the best way to look at it. i figure that, Warhammer psyker style, without the jedi academy around to find young jedi and train them it is quite likely that a number of jedi grew up after the purge and had to find their own way.... and therefore quite likely that a lot of them fell to the darkside in the process, without the guidance of older, wiser jedi. A lot would have kept their heads down as well, at least until the empire fell. Rahn was the only jedi i didn't get, as he seemed to be a fully trained jedi who poped up from nowhere. But as you said, i went with it because the game ruled. Has there been a good E1-3 era game on the pc? in fact, has there been one at all? starfighter i guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Originally posted by toms Has there been a good E1-3 era game on the pc? in fact, has there been one at all? starfighter i guess... Looking at Gamerankings - StarFighter (81%) & Jedi Starfighter (85%)for PS2 both got >80%. That's as good as it gets ... it is a sad thing when you like I demo more than the real game, as was the case with me and Episode 1 Racer ... I had fun with the demo with my kids, then got the game cheap on ebay (Mac and PC versions) ... they're both still in a box somewhere from when we got new office furniture ... [back at gameranking, looking at reviews for The Phantom Menace game ... amazing the variety ... this is why reviews are like opinions, which are like ... ] Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reprehence Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 The EU stories are a parallel universe, which is seperate and doesn't intrude on what has happened in the movies, but are based on those events. We just did an SW marathon, and frankly I think episode 4-6 are in a parallel universe to ep.1-2 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solbe M'ko Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 The way I look at it, good EU doesn't go against anything put forth in the movies. Great EU doesn't go against the movies or other (good) EU. The rest is all not good. Bloodriot sez: I dunno... sometimes it's hard to come up with good ideas that dont conflict with the events in the same timeline... I find quite the opposite. It would be easy to write a SW story that didn't conflict with the movies: use all new characters, etc. The preoblem with that is some of the familiarity would be lost, as most people already understand Luke Skywalker, for example. The trick is using those characters wisely and staying true to the films. The reason that, for example, JO didn't have a great storyline is that they tried to make it accesible to casual SW enthusiasts, by adding Cameos by guys like Lando and Luke, and using familiar environments. Anyway, the next DF should not take place in the prequel era. Maybe another franchise could, but not DF, it wouldn't make sense. To that end, JA barely counts as a DF game at all, as the DF series is synonomous with Kyle Katarn, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 I agree, at least in part, with the guy above. The Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series is based on, or at least prominently features Kyle Katarn. I don't think we should see a Jedi Knight game set in that time period, unless it ties in to Kyles storyline in some way. I'd be all for a similar type of game set in that era though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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