I hate being ripped off...

[theministered]

I'm not a rich fellow, thus I don't have a big spending range. The game itself is quite expensive. I don't mind paying a monthly fee, but what the creators of this game are charging is ludicrous. Yes, yes! I hear you now, "They need it to help run the servers so that we can play lag free!" Have we had a lesson in math yet? They are taking in $150.00usd a YEAR from each user. I am going to say there is _at a minimum_ 250,000 users that sign up for a full year's subscription. That means they are making 37,500,000 off those users. The last time I checked it didn't take 37 million dollars to run a few servers.

[Toonces]

I'm sure this is going to get locked. I'd do it myself, but I don't have mod powers in this forum.

 

Anyway, I won't say don't play, but first, I'm not sure that 250,000 people will subscribe for one year strait, but regardless, They have a full time staff of employees to pay, development costs to recoop, servers to pay for, electric bills to pay, storage space, taxes, ect...

 

$150 a year isn't going to break my bank, and considering I spend 10x+ that on Hockey expenses every year I can afford it.

[Plague]

If you don't want to pay to play, then here's a genius idea...

 

DON'T PLAY!

 

Why come whinning about a fee you knew about before you bought the game, and before you established and account? They are not going to change the cost because you are unhappy with it, either pay it or don't...this is nothing new MMO have been doing this for years..

[Urge]

Bandwith isn't free ya know. Somebody has to pay for those 250,000 people to be able to connect to the servers.

[theministered]

It sure as hell doesn't cost ~37 million dollars

[Pvt. Gripweed]

Ummmm, this might be new to you, but they aren't going to break even so you can play a Star Wars game. There's a man to pay, namely George Lucas. So when you say 37 million, probably 35 of that goes to good ole George.

[setsuko]

Then there's the paychecks for those five years of development, that's a couple of millions I tell you. Oh, and advertizement doesn't come for free those days. And then there's all those stockowners who expects to get money from their investment. Welcome to the glorious world of free marketing, my friend. Also known as 'get screwed marketing'. Just smile, bend over and play.

 

EDIT: and yes, when you buy a CD, most of the cost is not related to the production of the disc. When you buy an airplane ticket, is the whole cost related to the actual cost of the flight? And how large chunk of the money do you think was due to the actual assembly of the last computer parts you bought? The fact that people earn money on their products is nothing new. It's called capitalism. It's its major advantage, and also it's main flaw.

 

Basically, it works like this: if you have money, you can invest it. You buy "kapital" (german), and are thereby a capitalist. With this investment, you can produce a product, and then sell it for more money than you invested. Those who don't have money can't invest any, and therefore have to buy their products the capitalists. It's about dividing things up in those who gains, and those who pays. This time, you're on the 'wrong' side. Congratulations. Though, compared to the average Burmese, you're on the winning side 99% of the time. So stop complaining, it's not like you're a victim.

[Mujahid]

Here's a stab at the cost breakdown. I'm a professional software developer, so this is an educated guess (and, by the way, is just the TIP of the iceberg):

 

*Note: Game has been under development for 5+ years with no income (obviously). So right off the TOP, the investors need to recoup their investment...and like a poster mentioned above, they are NOT investing in SWG to break even. Would you?

 

Let's be conservative and say there were only 15 full time software developers. Each of these guys is making a salary between $60k per year and $150k per year, depending upon their position in the team.

 

Let's break it down like this:

1 Development Team Lead @ $150k per year.

1 QA Team lead @ $100k per year

5 developers @ $85k per year (total $425k per year)

8 developers @ $60k per year (total $480k per year)

 

This is a total *salary payout* of $1,155,000 per year.

Now, to determine an organization's *cost* to have those employees (medical insurance, disability, dental, vision, 401k, vacation, floating days, sick leave, bereavement leave, overhead breakdown per employee, etc) you need to take your salary payout (per person) and approximately multiply it by 2. So the figure above becomes $2,310,000 per year. [if you make $50k a year, it costs your employer nearly $100k just to look at your sorry self every day ]

 

Figure 5 years of development. I'm going to be SO conservative, I'm not even going to give the developers a miniscule cost-of-living raise each year. So 5 x the figure above equals: $11,550,000

 

I haven't even discussed management, folks. And, this is just the personnel cost. And, the total development staff is probably MUCH larger than 15 developers! I've personally developed smaller projects and needed more developers than that! (I once made AMPLE use of 22 developers on a simple e-commerce site that took 1 year to develop and field). The above figures are a *cartoon picture* of what must be the reality of SWG development.

 

Now, let's look at equipment: You need a server "farm" to handle this kind of game. One "server" might actually be as many as 10 physical server machines (it's more than that in EQ, and SWG has much more data).

 

Last time I priced an average server (at government cost), I was looking at (depending upon features) between $6k - $15k per box (not including racks, UPSs, tape farm, etc).

 

A message from a while back also hinted at the fact they are using Oracle as the underlying "back end" database. Have you ever priced an Oracle license? The cheapest license I have personally purchased, for an average application with limited use, was $100k just to get in the door. You don't go down to Comp USA and pick up a copy of Oracle, my friend Their enterprise-class license must be running close to a mil alone.

 

The developers had to develop the software SOMEWHERE, right? Ok, how much rent did the office space cost for 5 years? I don't know either, but it's a helluva lot more than your house/apartment payment, I can guarantee it. You can place the rent alone at close to a million dollars for a 5-year period. That's conservative for a modern office building. Ok, the building needs electricity now.... phones....HVAC....maintenance....

 

Now let's talk bandwidth. It's not free. Depending upon their pipeline, they could easily be looking at $10k per month over the span of that 5 year period. That ALONE would add up to approx $600k over that 5 year period. They're not developing this on a RoadRunner connection

 

Publicity: They don't get a booth at E3 for free, you know. They don't get ads in PC Gamer for free either.

 

We've spoken about development. How about marketting? How about business development? Those are two teams unto themselves that could *easily* cost more than the development team!

 

When you add it all up, a CONSERVATIVE estimate is that development of the game alone cost in the vicinity of $20mil

 

Now you have ongoing costs to take into consideration:

1. bandwidth

2. salary of CSRs and Live Team devs

3. salary of management

4. salary of continued marketting efforts (even EverQuest still advertises)

5. overhead of facilities and office

6. countless other costs I haven't even considered

 

Conclusion: Do I really have to offer one?

Here's a hint: $32 million is NOT a lot of money. All you have to do is spend ONE year managing a $30+ mil budget and you'll be bald from trying to make it spread over all the things you need to cover.

 

This is professional software development. They didn't ask "Jim Bob" down the street to throw this together on his Amiga

[setsuko]

Thank you, Mujahid. You took up what I didn't bother to.

 

It's easy to forget how expensive workers are if you haven't had a job yourself. To all you teenagers out there, spend a few years out in the 'real world', and you'll start to respect things like employers fees, taxation and the fearsome sick leave!

[Old_Ben]

Mujahid that's a great breakdown on the cost of making this game.

 

Most of those costs though, minus the severs and paying devs after the game comes out would be paid for by the cost of the game and not the monthly fee.

 

Most games don't have a monthly fee, and still they pay for the cost of the game development. Think about warcraft 3 that took a long time to develop and the developers had to be paid during that time, and the advertising had to be paid for from the $60 that the game cost. I don't think they would come out even on that.

 

So there are alot of costs in production but those can be paid for by the game. But does it cost 32 million dollars a year to run the servers?

[darthfergie]

21 servers. Mods for all of them. Chats mods for all of them. Web site designer. Devs salaries. Tech support. Ongoing Development of the X-Pac, patching, and the test server. Splitting of funds between LucasArts and SOE. Beta costs.

 

Plus are you basically saying that the companies who are making this game shouldn't get ANY profit from the game? Games that you don't make a profit on are called failures and are dropped (points to Majestic and various other MMOs that got dropped). Amazingly enough these people arn't trying to cheat you, they're trying to make a friggin LIVING.

[Toonces]

Originally posted by setsuko

Thank you, Mujahid. You took up what I didn't bother to.

 

Agreed, that's the point I was trying to make, but a much more detailed and verbose

 

Your explination might be a good Sticky for even the Official Forums.

[Urge]

You left out the opportunity costs associated with the 5 year development. Certainly everybody who worked on or supplied something for the project didn't wait till Sony started getting paid, so they are out what that money could have earned had it been invested in something that paid out in a shorter time period.

[Meatwad]

Hey I have an idea! If you think there's no place for complaints leave the country. I'm sick of people going "If you don't like paying don't play". When people didn't agree with the Vietnam War they protested and gave it their all to change it, they did NOT leave the country. Regardless of the "love it or leave it" crap. I know comparing a game protest to Vietnam is very extreme... but it works.

 

Posts like this were incredibly common a few years back, and with increasing game prices I'm sure more people are becoming concrened. But people started flaming them. Now people who feel that way don't speak their mind.

 

This is America! If a customer has a complaint, regardless of what it is, it should be taken seriously... especially if it is a repetative complaint like this.

 

You can't simply insult people and tell them they have no right to complain, they DO! EVERY, EVERY (did I mention every?) business is prone to complaints. If enough customers feel they are paying too much their opinion should be respected and taken seriously at the very least.

 

I myself can handle the $15 without complaint, but I am getting concerned with the inflation. Games like Diablo ran for years without many problems (but at times had problems with hackers) and to this day are still updating. Then games like Everquest came out with a monthly fee of less than $10... and it became $13... now the standard is $15!? That is a %50 increase in just a few years. Some games even cost $19 a month! Imagine 5 years from now... When does it stop?

[toolfan]

Mujahid, I would also like to add about the bandwith cost, $10,000 a month for each server since each server is going to have its own internet line. Thats what SOE does with Everquest. EQ has 42 servers, each costing atleast $10,000 a month for bandwith, you do the math, thats a lot of money.

[Burrie]

Games like Diablo ran for years without many problems (but at times had problems with hackers) and to this day are still updating. Then games like Everquest came out with a monthly fee of less than $10... and it became $13... now the standard is $15!? That is a %50 increase in just a few years. Some games even cost $19 a month! Imagine 5 years from now... When does it stop?

The problem here, Meatwad, is that there is a huge difference between Diablo and a game like Everquest. Whereas the companies for Everquest & SWG have to run these huge server farms, Diablo doesn't have that. As far as I know, Diablo's servers are run by the players themselves, not the company. It's the same as hosting a server for a First-Person shooter, it is almost always done by the players. Hence, those games don't need to charge a fee.

[-=ReApEr=-]

Also guys, George himself needs to make some money. And when you buy the game itself, about 25% of the money gos to the shop.

 

Another 25 % gos to Distrubators who ship the game up, then theres the packaging. That isn't free the boxes etc, around 15 % to them.

 

Then most of the rest go to sony and lucas arts, the money is split up between them i would guess. Note this is just for the game itself.

 

Also they are making a addon for the game, it isn't going to be some patch. Nor some small addon disk, it will be another game itself, with alot of new features and addons.

 

The addon would have to be added onto the game itself, this all costs money. Almost everything costs money, for everything they do.

 

So please do not say that there being greedy and if you leave please leave quietly, and put your copy in the box by the door on your way out.

 

To be frankly honest, i only care about the people in the =A= Pa. And a few forum members who come here, and do not bitch and whistle.

 

That's my 2 cents anyhow, sorry if i was a bit long.

[Mujahid]

Originally posted by Mujahid

Let's break it down like this:

1 Development Team Lead @ $150k per year.

1 QA Team lead @ $100k per year

5 developers @ $85k per year (total $425k per year)

8 developers @ $60k per year (total $480k per year)

 

 

DOH! I put in a position for a QA team lead, but didn't "hire" anyone for the actual QA team! Hahahah! I know some folks at work who would smack me upside the head if they saw that, haha .....darned "Mujahid" always forgetting the QA team! [i remember back to a conversation I had with a "new hire" QA guy: He said "Hey! Take a look at this. It gives me an error when I do this!" My reply? "So don't DO THAT!" ]

 

And thanks for the feedback, folks! I've been at it now for about 10 years, working for various organizations in various capacities (ranging from a simple programmer to a development team lead). I'm SURE I left a TON of things out of that breakdown, though, due to the fact that I've never been a Program Manager. A lot of that stuff is a little too arcane for me (hehe, this coming from a programmer, no less )

[Zenmetsu]

If your not wiling to pay that much a year to play this game, then dn't play. DOn't whine and complain to all of us, it won't make the price cheaper.

[setsuko]

There's a freaking big difference between anti-war protests, political protests etc, and whining about a game. Seriously. Is someone getting killed for SWG? No. Does the monthly fee affect the living condition of the average person in society? No. Is the international agenda dictated by the affairs of SOE? Don't think so.

 

Get some perspective, please. The fact that the prices rise is because of a simple economic rule: the seller wants to maximize profit. So they raise the price until they reach the highest rate they can sell it at, without losing customers. These things takes several years, and is dynamic, depending on conjunctures and other general economic situations. The prices rises because the market is new, and the 'rules' for the market are not clear yet. So no, it's not a worldwide conspiracy only affecting MMORPGs, if you thought so; it's existing in ALL business. Every single one. Really, the surprise here is that some people have a naive outlook where MMORPG producers should in some weird way be obliged to disregard all the rules that goes for other businesses. Games doesn't just turn up from some magic game tree, exclusively for to satisfy your gaming needs. It's a business.

[setsuko]

There's a freaking big difference between anti-war protests, political protests etc, and whining about a game. Seriously. Is someone getting killed for SWG? No. Does the monthly fee affect the living condition of the average person in society? No. Is the international agenda dictated by the affairs of SOE? Don't think so.

 

Get some perspective, please. The fact that the prices rise is because of a simple economic rule: the seller wants to maximize profit. So they raise the price until they reach the highest rate they can sell it at, without losing customers. These things takes several years, and is dynamic, depending on conjunctures and other general economic situations. The prices rises because the market is new, and the 'rules' for the market are not clear yet. So no, it's not a worldwide conspiracy only affecting MMORPGs, if you thought so; it's existing in ALL business. Every single one. Really, the surprise here is that some people have a naive outlook where MMORPG producers should in some weird way be obliged to disregard all the rules that goes for other businesses. Games doesn't just turn up from some magic game tree, exclusively for to satisfy your gaming needs. It's a business.

[InnateEnigma]

The monthly charge is reasonable. They are trying to make money of course thats the beauty of capitolism. I am tired of all the whining about the price.

 

True a lot of times I have great difficulty logging on as now is one of those times but in a couple of months when most of these major bugs are worked out it will be well worth it.

 

The only thing that bugs me is not being able to play when I have the free time because my server is skanked. Even so my money is well spent in helping iron out the bugs because I know I will playing this game for a long time. Im glad they are making money because this game is almost too fun and as long as they keep making money they will keep it alive and making it better.