The Cheat Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 ok i have come to believe that the seperatists are what will become the rebel alliance, and they are the ones that are building the death star right? so why dont they get it? its like they are building an awesome weapon for their enemy. That would be like the US developing the atomic bomb and giving the two they made to japan. Why dont the rebels get this weapon? they made it, how does the empire get it? I would figure after Dooku dies and Mon Mathma takes over she will want to use the Death Star for good or maybe not use it to completly destroy planets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benTantilles Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 dude... the separatists DON'T become the rebels. the separatists were a group of people who grew discontent with the republic...their actual separation was orchestrated by the emperor himself (the then-senator palpatine) to give him an excuse to have access to emergency powers- the first step in his transition to emperorhood. the separatists were probably destroyed during or immediately after the clone wars or turned after palpatine's promise of removing corruption and apathy from the republic. the rebellion, however, was created by a merger of 3 resistance groups (mon mothma's, organa's and bel iblis's) who wanted to oppose the tyrannical policies of the New Order. their existence was a result of the Emperor's dictatorship and not one of his scheming plans. hence, it's not logical to assume that the death star would've been in possession of the rebellion just coz the separatists invented it. (now how does THAT fit into the maw installation theory?!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbguy1211 Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 well... dooku has the plans for it anyway. besides, the seperatists are all alien and the rebels we see in the OT are mainly humans. I'm waiting to see how poggle and the TF come to an end in the 3rd. do they die by the republic or the emperor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cheat Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 ok, thanks for clearing it up for me guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 Originally posted by pbguy1211 well... dooku has the plans for it anyway. besides, the seperatists are all alien and the rebels we see in the OT are mainly humans. I'm waiting to see how poggle and the TF come to an end in the 3rd. do they die by the republic or the emperor? Dooku isn't an alien. Species can't really be used to determine side, although Imperials do have more humans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benTantilles Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 the rebels were predominantly human in the early stages of the rebellion coz it's 3 constituent resistance groups-bel iblis's, mon mothma's & organa's- were of human origins. once the rebels began to spread their wings, many alien species were assimilated into the rebellion til they eventually outnumbered 'em. Species can't really be used to determine side well...not in the case of the NJO, anyway... actually, come 2 think of it, even then, some vong were fighting on the known galaxy's side and some humans were fighting 4 the Vong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Don't mix up EU stuff with movie facts...it shouldn't be mixed;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benTantilles Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 oh yeah...they're so cohesive, it's hard to distinguish 1 from the other... is there another reason, aside from going off-topic, that i shouldn't mix em? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superracer0022 Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 i was thinking that the seperatists were what would become the rebels as well but i didnt know how it was the joining of 3 groups so now i understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boinga1 Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Three groups= EU. Seperatists are not the Rebels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Monk Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Repost: As for any relationship between the Separatist Movement and the Rebel Alliance--I don't believe it exists. The motivation behind the Alliance is to reinstate the Democratic Republic, whereas the Separatists are trying to secede from that Republic. Lucas also makes it very clear in the screenplay (if not in the movie) that the Separatists have a fascist undercurrent: Padme: ...I know of your treaties with the Trade Federation, the Commerce Guilds, and the others, Count. What is happening here is not government that has been bought out by business... It's business becoming government! And in the immortal words of F.D.R., "Fascism is what happens when corporations run the state." The Empire and the Separatists show two sides to fascism: the Empire is a military dictatorship, the Separatists are a corporate dictatorship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 man... i was hoping for some easy answere like 'cause the imperials made it, they kept it...' this thread wasnt what i expected lol episode 3 will reveal the answeres to all of our questions, and if it doesnt, then its a screwed up movie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cheat Posted July 23, 2003 Author Share Posted July 23, 2003 yeah i guess i will just wait 2 more years to have all of my questions answered at last Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 EU stuff is NOT created by George Lucas so it should NOT be taken for evidence. To try and prove something from the movies you have to go with things that Lucas created NOT some EU facts that might not be exactly what Lucas has in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Monk Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Very succinct, lukeiamyourdad. Well put! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Thank you:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Gaarni Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Originally posted by Jedi_Monk Repost: As for any relationship between the Separatist Movement and the Rebel Alliance--I don't believe it exists. The motivation behind the Alliance is to reinstate the Democratic Republic, whereas the Separatists are trying to secede from that Republic. Lucas also makes it very clear in the screenplay (if not in the movie) that the Separatists have a fascist undercurrent: Again, this clearly strenghten the EU facts. So, the EU does explain how the Rebel Alliance come to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benTantilles Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 EU stuff is NOT created by George Lucas so it should NOT be taken for evidence. To try and prove something from the movies you have to go with things that Lucas created NOT some EU facts that might not be exactly what Lucas has in mind. since when did star wars only cover what george lucas had in mind for it? george lucas himself approved of the idea of creating an OFFICIAL expanded universe of star wars... everything that's the EU now would've been subject to much scrutiny at the hands of lucas licensing & other lucas-affiliated organizations. The only reason why there's a distiction in the significance of movies--canon--and the EU--continuity-- is for the sole application of precedence when a contradiction occurs between the 2. that's undoubtedly mr lucas's idea as well. to question to official validity of the EU is to similarly question whether the movies have official priority over the EU. To try and prove something from the movies that depends on the basis on which you're evaluating the validity of that 'something'. if u wanna try and prove whether it's official or not, then sure, factor in the EU. however if u wanna prove whether it's george lucas's idea or not, then of course, exercise PLENTY of discretion when taking the EU into account for the obvious reason that most of what's in the EU isn't gL's idea. the EU is official. the events described in it are officially what's happened in the SW universe, save what has been flatly contradicted in the movies. personally, though, it's up to you whether u wanna include the EU in your own star wars universe. but if u don't, and only want 2 include what was thought of by George Lucas, then here's a point to bear in mind: not all of the stuff featured in the movies are george's ideas. if u wanna disregard whatever wasn't thought of by GL, you're gonna end up calling coruscant hab abbadon (sp?) coz coruscant was coined by the prominent sw author timothy zahn. u might wanna start calling wedge antilles chewie as well, coz the latter was GL's name for him... wedge, i believe, was some other guy's idea. There are tonnes of other material out there which're included in the movies but weren't devised by GL, but i can't possibly know all of em. I, personally, love the EU...and, i think, regardless of whether u choose to include it in your own version of star wars, u gotta admit it's done a lota good 4 star wars, rite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Lucas approves EU but may not necesarily like it or it may not be his idea. Look at Boba Fett. He's alive in the EU but Lucas clearly stated that in his eyes, Boba Fett was dead. True Coruscant was Zahn creation but the name Coruscant only. I you read the first thrawn trilogy(the only eu books I like as a matter of facts), some kind of mountain appears in it. It is stated that Luke woke up and looked at that mount which name I can't remember. where is it in the movies? eu turned star wars into old pure sci-fi crap with the NJO serie. It is now a war between races, an old story told by so many sci-fi books. The true thing that made star wars unique in my eyes it was the fact that the battles were fought between humans and not aliens vs. humans or anything. eu turned this factor into crap. GL might just have signed his agreement but this does not mean anything. He might not even hav read the books. No matter how entertaining you can find eu, never must it be taken into consideration in a movie argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Monk Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 The EU was pulp sci-fi crap long before NJO. Zahn started it on this heinous road with his first book. I'd compare his trilogy to Batman Forever, Joel Schumacher's first time directing in the Batman franchise. On its own, Batman Forever is a pretty fun and enjoyable movie, but in light of Shumacher's second effort, Batman and Robin all of the flaws stand out starkly and you can see exactly how that led into this. While on its own, Zahn's trilogy is good, in the context of the rest of the EU, it becomes a virtually unforgivable effort that drained the mythology from Star Wars literature. More and more, the EU is becoming the AU, the Alternative Universe. It does not co-exist with the continuity of the movies. When it comes to Canon, there are several things I look to: 1. The movies are at the forefront, and both by a casual observance and a deeper viewing, can offer many insights. 2. Interviews with Lucas are invaluable for learning about things that exist in his imagination but, for one reason or another, could not be included into the movies. 3. Lucas' scripts and drafts can also give us insight into Lucas' thought process; what he intended, and where he might be going. 4. The Making of and Art of books can give us insight into how the Star Wars galaxy, its inhabitants and technology function. Lucas shares a lot of his ideas with his art department to keep them on the same page as himself, so that they will accurately render what he sees in his mind's eye. So, in brief, when participating in a debate dealing with the canonical SW universe, we base our arguments on our interpretation of celuloid, and Lucas' intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Gaarni Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 eu turned star wars into old pure sci-fi crap with the NJO serie. It is now a war between races, an old story told by so many sci-fi books. The true thing that made star wars unique in my eyes it was the fact that the battles were fought between humans and not aliens vs. humans or anything. eu turned this factor into crap. That is not true. It is a war of a galaxy including most the races, including humans, against a tyranic, largly human dictatorship. The humans in these movies are for the most part the evil. And that is what I like about Star Wars. It's not another "humans are the good guys and are being attacked by a fears alien race" (ID4 for instance, although that's a very good movie, don't get me wrong ) kind of movie. Here, the human race are the oppressors. And aliens and good humans fight side by side to end it. I do agree about the NJO though. That just should never have come out. And I haven't even read it yet. It is stated that Luke woke up and looked at that mount which name I can't remember. where is it in the movies? Don't get me wrong, but that's a weak argument. That's like saying, "in the script it said this and this and this, but where is it in the movies?". And since the movies are the ultimate canon, then it should appear in it aswell, right? EDIT: Also, this is canon (primary to secondary to etc....) Movies. Script. Novelization of the movies. Radio dramatisation of the movies. The rest that is official is EU. And that which is not official should be discarded when studeing Star Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by Jan Gaarni 1.That is not true. It is a war of a galaxy including most the races, including humans, against a tyranic, largly human dictatorship. The humans in these movies are for the most part the evil. And that is what I like about Star Wars. It's not another "humans are the good guys and are being attacked by a fears alien race" (ID4 for instance, although that's a very good movie, don't get me wrong ) kind of movie. Here, the human race are the oppressors. And aliens and good humans fight side by side to end it. 2.I do agree about the NJO though. That just should never have come out. And I haven't even read it yet. 3.Don't get me wrong, but that's a weak argument. That's like saying, "in the script it said this and this and this, but where is it in the movies?". And since the movies are the ultimate canon, then it should appear in it aswell, right? EDIT: 4.Also, this is canon (primary to secondary to etc....) Movies. Script. Novelization of the movies. Radio dramatisation of the movies. The rest that is official is EU. And that which is not official should be discarded when studeing Star Wars. 1-That's what I said I doN,t see why you... 2-Exactly 3-Actually it is NOT part of the script only part of an EU book therefore my argument is still good. 4-hmm why are you going against me when you're a semi-purist/purist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Gaarni Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 1-That's what I said I doN,t see why you... I missunderstood then. I apologies. I'll shut up now. It seems bad things come out of my mouth when I open it lately. And for the record, I'm a Star Wars Fan. That means I love all that is Official Star Wars, except for a select few things (Sun Crusher, NJO, just to mention a few ). I also have a different way of looking at it. I look at it as history. Thus nothing is right or wrong, only false interpetation of the past, which is already difficult enough to obtain seeing it takes place in another galaxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by Jan Gaarni I also have a different way of looking at it. I look at it as history. Thus nothing is right or wrong, only false interpetation of the past, which is already difficult enough to obtain seeing it takes place in another galaxy. Hmmm... well let's say that eu is mainly a false interpretation of the past:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Gaarni Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Well, if you look at it that way, then the Imperial Star Destroyers in the movies can't be 1,600 meters long. Scratch that, that was weak. You can actually calculate to around that size from the movies, even though it has never been mentioned the lenght in any canon source. Only EU has mentioned the length. Hmmm, they got something right. How is that possible? Of course, it totally screwed up the lenght of the Executor many places, and the width of atleast the second Death Star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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