The role of Air units - reloaded

[Admiral Vostok]

Well I posted a similar post to this many moons ago, but now that I've come to writing out my civ designs I thought I'd bring it back into open debate.

 

I think that Air in SWGB1 was severely underpowered. It was impossible to really capture the fantastic fighter battles that Star Wars is famous for. Although many things could not shoot at Air units, anybody facing a powerful Air civ only needed to build many anti-air mobiles/turrets and have the upper hand. Air units were just too weak, and too easily countered.

 

As such, I propose the following changes to the way Air units work:

 

1) Air units strafe their targets. This has been done in many games, and I really can't see any disadvantages to it. It might mostly be eye candy, but the fact that the Aircraft are constantly moving also makes them harder to hit, which is addressed further down...

 

2) All ranged units can attack air. However, troopers are rather bad at it, (about as good as they are vs Mechs). Mechs shooting at air will have a certain minimum range (although it won't be too large) - if the air unit is right above them they can't angle their guns enough. However their are some Mechs (designated Anti-Aircraft) that don't have this range limitation, and who also recieve a bonus to attacking air. Turrets start as standard turrets (which can shoot ground and air) but they will need to research an Anti-Aircraft upgrade before being worthwhile at it.

 

3) To encompass the fact that fast-moving obstacles are harder to hit, and to counter the fact that more things can kill air now, every unit in the game has a "Dodge" property i addition to their Armour, HP, Speed, etc. In particular Aircraft (which are always on the move) and Jedi (who are lightly armoured but can avoid incoming blows) will have fairly high Dodge values, as well as units like a melee Wookiee trooper, lightly armoured speeder-type mechs, etc. The Jedi Starfighter will have one of the highest Dodge values in the game. The Dodge value reduces the chance that an incoming shot will hit you - in effect it is a further modifier to being able to hit an object. Note that not all Aircraft have good Dodge values - most Transports will have negligible if any Dodge values.

 

Hopefully such changes will restore Aircraft's rightful place in SWGB2. I have thought about this a lot, so please if you don't think it can work, let's work together on a workable solution rather than just saying "no", because quite frankly a repeat of Air's appalling capabilities in SWGB2 will be rather sad.

[Compa_Mighty]

Actually I like your ideas, can't think of any one of them that wouldn't work.

[Darth Windu]

1. Yes

2. Absolutely not - this throws realism and gameplay out the window

3. I really dont see the point - other games, such as 'Star Trek: Armada' and the C&C series just make it so that weapons have different impacts on different classes of units. Just change the value of the weapons that Aircraft and Jedi could dodge

 

My idea for aircraft in SWGB2 goes as such-

1. All aircraft built at airbase and remain there, except for transports.

2. Aircraft strafe targets

3. Aircraft have a certain range

4. Bombers do far more damage than in SWGB

5. Transports land to offload cargo - and are then vulnerable to ground fire

6. Fighters 'dogfight'

[lukeiamyourdad]

1. If someone goes against this I will personally deal with him.

 

2. I'm with Windu on this one.

 

3. Not a bad idea...we should get rid of the homing missiles too.

 

I agree that SWGB1's aircrafts weren't so great and got destroyed so easily, but this is a ground RTS and aircraft have mainly a support role meaning that concetrating totally on aircrafts could be a big downside.

[Darth Windu]

I agree about the missiles. In all of the movies where starfighters are attacking large targets, they always get fired at by large laser emplacements, not missile sites.

[DK_Viceroy]

The only ground unit in the star wars unit that really fired only missiles was the hailfire droid and that concentrated on ground targets and was turned into a wuss AA mobile if they're gonna keep aa moblies they'd need to change em into some sort of anti mech unit that can target air. I agree with the admiral here about ranged units being able to fire at air since in ep 1 that AAT fired at an air target and it wouldn't be much for troopers just to stick their blaster rifles in the air and fire. Their wern't very many effective laser emplacement s against fighters because they were too small and too fast they occasionally got lucky so that's why the empire usually had loads of fighters in their ships to shoot down rebel fighters and the proof for this in case any one will try to claim it's EU in ep 4 the death stars turbolasers couldn't hit the fighters. If ground units are going to be firing at air units you should make them not super acurate but hitting air targets in maybe 2 out of 5 shots and i totally agree with transprts landing and being more vulnarable to ground fire but i realistically think that aa mobiles should be mostly scrapped because in most if not all the films fighters ruled the sky unopposed unless by another air force. Though propably the reason why they didn't have fighters strafing is because the ships notably the TIE Fighter were not built for atmospheric combat they were specialised for space combat so any atmospheric manoevouers done would propably have ripped them apart. Fighters in SWGB 1 were quite useful and still are because they are not that expensive and if deployed correctly could be devastating. Bombers though they should make bombing runs and maybe an area bombing feature for formations over 5 bombers were they carpet bomb an army or base they shouldn't stay still when they bomb that isn't remotley realistic how many people could picture a wi bing or Scimtar assault bomber staying in one place dropping it's bombs at the mercy of laser emplacement and fighters i think they maybe should be given a token weapon not to make them completly helpless

[lukeiamyourdad]

Punctuation could make this easier to read...

[swphreak]

I liked the way air units were in CnC Gens. Which is sorta being described by Darth Windu. Those transports landed to offload cargo, and certain tanks, soldiers, ect took up more space than the other. Like I'm sure an ATAT would take up more than one spot.

 

And I don't like the fighters stay at air base... unless it can be more than 4 air units. That was really annoying. maybe if it can hold a squadron of fighters, I'd be happy... and maybe more than 2 or 3 fighters per civ.... after all, the rebs have the A, Y, K, B, E, V, X Wing and probably more I didn't mention. Imps have TIE fighter, interceptor, defender, phantom, the droid one, and others... you get the idea.

[saberhagen]

Maybe there should be different types and sizes of air transport. eg a small one that could only carry 5 troopers, then a bigger one which could carry a couple of mechs or heavy weapons, or 10 troopers, then you'd have to have a huge one for transporting assault mechs, and naturally bigger ones would cost more. The number of units a transport could carry could be related to the number of population slots a unit took up, if that idea is used in the game.

[Admiral Vostok]

Okay, maybe Troopers can't shoot Air. Although they are able to in the movies, they didn't have much success, so I guess they might as well not shoot Air. But most Mechs should be able to, and I stand by my comment on how turrets should work.

 

The landing to offload transported units is a good idea. Saberhagen, I also agree that transports with differing capacities should exist. I can't remember where, but I think I outlined my idea for transports before. Here it is again, as it relates to Air:

 

1) Transports can be either carry Troopers (this includes Jedi and other Trooper-sized units), or carry Mechs, or carry both. For example, the Republic Gunship can carry only Troopers, while the Republic Dropship can carry only Mechs, and the Rebel Medium Transport can carry both.

 

2) Each transport has a different capacity. This capacity is not representative of how many units the transport can carry, but how much population worth of units it can carry. For example, the Confederacy can carry Troopers and Mechs, and has capacity of 20, so it can carry 20 standard Battle Droids (1 pop each) or 10 Super Battle Droids (2 pop each) or 4 Dwarf Spider Droids (5 pop each) or 2 Homing Spider Droids (10 pop each), or a combination such as one Homing, one Dwarf, two Supers and one standard BD (10+5+2+2+1=20). Note I'm just using arbitrary population values - I don't want to start a debate on what the population cost of a Homing Spider Droid should be!

 

3) Air transports need to land to unload their cargo, during which time they can be attacked by any unit with the ability to attack ground units. Sea transports need to beach to unload their cargo, during which time they can be attacked by melee units.

 

4) Transports can only transport other transports if the latter are empty. For example, a Republic Dropship can transport an AT-TE only if the AT-TE is not already transporting Clone Troopers. Although not entirely realistic, this avoids unnecessary confusion which I know I had when transporting Assault Mechs in SWGB1.

[Darth Windu]

In response to Vostok's points-

1. Agreed

2. Agreed

3. Agreed

4. Depends on how you define capacity. For example, can a dropships only carry one AT-TE because of the weight, or because of its size? If it is simple a size issue, theoretically a dropship could carry a fully-loaded AT-TE. If it is a weight issue, then a dropship can only carry an unloaded AT-TE.

 

Also, i think that for most civ's, there should only be one transport, the exception being the Republic. This would be to simplify gameplay somewhat and frankly, i dont see the point of having 3 different types of air transports for each civ.

[DK_Viceroy]

Sorry About The Punctuation I've Fixed ALL My Posts On ALL Threads Sorry

[swphreak]

I think the AT-TE should be able to be transported with a full load of troopers. If it was a weight issue, then how did the AT-TEs in the movie get transported down? I think they were full.

[Admiral Vostok]

Phreak, a couple of points I maybe wasn't clear about:

 

First, the fact that Transports can't carry loaded transports has nothing to do with Realism at all. In fact it is unrealistic. Therefore it has nothing to do with weight, or things like that. I just thought it would be less confusing and easier to understand if they didn't. Also it might make some things overpowered. Not sure though, this one is open for debate.

 

Second, I'm not suggesting each civ have all three transports. In fact I don't think any will have three. Most will have one, which can carry both Troopers and Mechs. The Republic is the obvious exception, with one to carry Troopers and one to carry Mechs. One civ may have one that can only carry Troopers, and one that can carry both. It's really another way to add both realism and uniqueness to civs.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I think it should be possible. If a Transport has 10 slots(1 trooper=1 slot) it should be able to carry a loaded AT-TE(AT-TE takes five slots so the AT-TE is able to carry 5 troopers within itself). When the transport unloads its cargo, he only unloads the AT-TE. The troopers are then protected inside the AT-TE and the time the transport is on the ground(the unload time get down-unload-go back up) is lower thus making it less vulnerable.

[Admiral Vostok]

Okay, that's fair enough. I'll change number 4:

 

4) Transports can only transport other transports if the total units being transported does not exceed the capacity. For example a Republic Dropship (Capacity 10) can carry an AT-TE (Population 6, Capacity 10) if the AT-TE is only carrying 4 Clone Troopers (6 for the AT-TE + 4 Clone Troopers = 10), but the same dropship could not carry a fully loaded AT-TE (6 for the AT-TE + 10 Clone Troopers > 10).

 

Note the reason I've made the AT-TE cost 6 population is so a Dropship can not carry two 5-pop AT-TEs. I think the SPHA-T should cost 12 pop, so it can't be transported at all. AT-ATs will also have a high pop, as I don't think they should be transportable.

[saberhagen]

Then how did Veers get his AT-ATs to Hoth?

 

I think the answer is that there must be a transport capable of taking AT-ATs but that it wouldn't normally be used in a tactical situation because it would be too big/unmanoeuvrable/vulnerable to ground fire. If one appears in the game it should be very expensive, very slow and very weak.

 

Edit: After all, Veers must have had a good reason for not landing closer to Echo Base.

[Darth Windu]

Okay, this is starting to get really complicated. My idea supports Vostoks edited idea by default, since i already have the whole 'different pop slots' thingy going, ill find out how many each transport could carry if they were in another transport. If you know what i mean...

[Admiral Vostok]

saberhagen: The only instance where it would be worthehile transporting an AT-AT would be the transit from Star Destroyer in orbit to the planet surface. As there is nothing like this in SWGB, I don't think such a transport should be included. Think of the Trade Federation Landing Craft in The Phantom Menace.

 

As a side note, in my plan units like Speederbikes count as Troops rather than Mechs. This enables them to be transported in Trooper transports.

[Sithmaster_821]

1. Troopers cannot attack air for aforementioned reasons. Period.

2. Windu, this is not C&C redux. I prefer too allow my air units to be urestricted in movement. Gameplay>Realism

3. No to the dodge factor.

4. Constantly moving/strafing air units are good as long as its kept simple but realistic. And landing air transports should remain unassailable to ground forces. Once again, Gameplay triumphs over Realism

5. Differents civs transports should have different carrying capacities, and some civs could feasibly have more than one transport. Transportation based on pop space and not on unit count is also a good idea, but transports will need more carrying capacity than what you guys are alloting them.

6. Vostok-your pop counts are enormously high. If you wanted a medium scale game the maximum pop count of a unit should be 5, with most unis in the 1-3 range. Even WC3, which is as small scale as they get, doesn't have a 12 pop unit.

[Admiral Vostok]

1. Okay, no to Troopers shooting air. But most Mechs should be able to. I think the strength of air attacks should be increased, but the cost for Air should also be increased. They cost a lot of resources, but not much population, allowing you to have large squadrons but not be able to pump them out to devestating effect.

2. I agree no to the returning to hangar thing. It is totally un-Star-Warsy.

3. With fewer homing missiles we won't need a dodge ability, so I don't mind - as long as we have less homing missiles.

4. Explain how that makes better gameplay, Sith. Making landers vulnerable while dropping off troops will make for a bit more thinking and strategy - instead of just doing a pummel drop in someone's base, you might actually have to think about where the best place to land is. Things can be both realistic and fun, you know.

5. Fine. Though if it makes a difference, I should add that because the Republic's transports are fast and have a decent attack, they have a far smaller carrying capacity than the rest of the civs' transports.

6. My pop limits are only here to illustrate points. Obviously pop limit needs to be properly balanced into the game, which is something I can't do. I'm giving them arbitrary values for the purposes of illustrating arguments, that's all.

[lukeiamyourdad]

1. Perhaps not all mechs. It would be rediculous for a MTT to shoot air units.

2. It makes aircraft too hard to hit and when hangar is destroyed no more aircraft available...

3. Exactly.

4. Exactly.

5. Those were just examples.

[lukeiamyourdad]

1. Perhaps not all mechs. It would be rediculous for a MTT to shoot air units.

2. It makes aircraft too hard to hit and when hangar is destroyed no more aircraft available...

3. Exactly.

4. Exactly.

5. Those were just examples.

[Sithmaster_821]

1. In my mind, the only mechs that should be able to hit air units are AT-AT's. The others are too short and too ground oriented to be able to hit air units flying at a normal height. Not to mention the fact that non-AA units hitting air would severely weaken air's standing, and i thought we wanted

4. It makes better gameplay for the same reason that disallowing troopers from attacking air is good gameplay. Making air transports vurnable rolls the ball too heavily in the corner of a defender, especially on space maps. In fact, the reason air cruisers where added was because defenders were too strong on space maps to begin with.

[Darth Windu]

2. This helps gameplay and realism. Aircraft have to return to their hanger to refuel and reload, and also means that the player will have to protect their airbase more. It is also unrealistic and bad for gameplay to have aircraft keep manouvering above your base without landing or stopping at all. Furthermore, it helps with the speed and fluidity of the game by having less units on the screen at certain times.

 

4. Landed transports should definately be vulnerable to ground fire, it makes the game far more realistic and makes the player consider other things, like air support and not dropping off units in the middle of an enemy army.

 

5. With my idea, i have the following pop slots-

Trooper = 1/2

Other Infantry, Scouts = 1

Light Mechs, Fighters, Frigates = 2

Medium Mechs, Bombers, Destroyer, Cruiser = 3

Heavy Mechs, Air Transport = 4

Very Heavy Mechs, Aircraft Carrier = 5

 

with most transports being able to carry about 12 pop slots.