Immigration

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Your thoughts on immigration. Good thing, bad thing, destructive, constructive?

 

In Norway right now we have a right-wing party trying to completely stop immigration under the banner "vote Norway for the Norwegians", and the policy of preventing "people who are visibly foreign" from entering several cities. This disgracing attitude made me want to debate immigration here.

 

First: What's your attitude on legal immigration?

 

Next: Your thoughts on illegal immigration and on refugees requesting asylum.

 

My thoughts on legal immigration:

What can I say? Any increase in the number of people in a nation, as long as the country is not seriously overpopulated or something of the like, is a good thing. More people to buy houses and spend money on services, a bigger workforce, and so on.

 

If immigrants who can't read enter the States (or anyone else's fatherlands), so what? Set them to do things that illiterate people can do, so that the workforce that can read can focus on more important things. And if the litteracy rate falls, so what? The actual number of people who can read does not fall. If you have a country of 5,000,000 people and 4,900,000 can read, and 250,000 million people enter who can't read, it affects the percentage, but the number of litteral people still stay at 4,9 million.

 

Then, there is the issue on number of available jobs and the common "immigrants take our jobs away from us" attitude.

 

Well, let's say you apply for a job as a veterinary in the kingdom of Norway and an immigrant comes in from Gondor with more skills than you, and he gets the job.

 

Rather than being mad at the Elf, address this question:

How come he had more skills than you? How come he got hired? If the fault lies with the country's schools, and the country really is experiencing a high number of skilled proffesionals who get hired instead of the people of the country, shouldn't the country improve its schools and force people to study more instead of shutting out all competition? If a soccer team keeps beating the Norwegian team, well, then let's improve the Norwegian team, not refuse to play that other team. It doesn't work that way. IMO, at least.

 

Illegal immigration:

I'm a bit more undecided on this one. It depends on what's going to happen to them if they get sent back to their homeland. If they risk torture or inhumane execution, is it right for us to send them back?

 

Second, as long as they pay taxes and get a job (which I realize that far from all of them do), at least they're benefitting the country a bit.

 

If someone sneaks into the country just to get around immigration policies and stuff, and risk no punishment at home, throw them out.

 

Ps: Let's not turn this into a religious debate. Not that I see how it would turn into one, but it wouldn't be beyond this forum:D. Let's just not.

[Kurgan]

I have no problems with limiting immigration.

 

Now I've heard countless people say "oh but if you do that you're being racist."

 

Well, I think that's a fallacious argument, because it assumes too many things.

 

1) That the person wanting to limit immigration first of all IS a racist.

 

2) That all of the immigrants are of the same race, or races that the person against immigration is racist against.

 

3) That people would only oppose immigration for racist reasons.

 

There are many other reasons for opposing immigration that have nothing to do with racism.

 

1) Resources. More people = fewer resources to distribute among them. This goes for local jobs as well.

 

2) Assimilation costs. It costs a lot of money to assimilate people who don't speak the local language or have skills, and even for those who already are set there, they need housing and jobs, etc.

 

3) Exploitation of Immigrants. Often unskilled immigrants are willing to work for lower wages and under poorer conditions (if they come from poorer countries for example where they are used to that sort of thing or anything is an improvement for them). Many greedy corporations are all too willing to do this. Some of this seems to be changing with corporations moving overseas or across the borders to exploit poor labor there (sweat shops and the like) which in turn steals jobs from local poor or unskilled people.

 

4) Increases in Crime. Now granted, this is NOT to say that all immigrants are criminals. I'm sure most are not, but immigrants include people who are criminals wanting to escape the law in their home countries or that their countries are all too ready to get rid of (and I'm not going to even touch on terrorism, which would be such a tiny minority anyway).

 

If it's our country, we should have the right to say who can and cannot become a citizen. Obviously its possible for racism to enter into it, or unfairness etc. The way it is, in America, illegal immigration is a problem, and many agree that the INS is hopelessly corrupt and inefficient, perferring to make people citizens after they sneak into the country rather than screen the people who want to come in. If they wanted to keep people out, they probably could if they really tried. During various national emergencies the borders were supposedly "sealed."

 

Immigrants can of course benefit a country. If they become citizens, they can pay income tax, which puts money into the coffers of the country. If they are skilled workers, they can displace other skilled workers, but they can also contribute to the industries with their skills and their services. They can add their knowledge to things like cultural exchanges and history, the arts, etc. They can help be good will ambassadors for their countries to help smooth out international relations, etc.

 

I think that Immigration reform is an important issue. So is working with poor countries to improve their station, rather than allowing their countries to dissolve and force their citizens to flee to our shores in desperation while we barely lift a finger to help. Certain trade agreements seem to have made the problems worse rather than better, by simply substituting one set of problems for another (why bother sending immigrants here, when we can take the exploitive low paying jobs out of our country to their's?).

[El Sitherino]

Immigration is what this country(America) was built on. And what made it succeed into becoming what it is today.

 

Technically all countries owe their existence to immigration. to outlaw it is a bad idea and against the belief of the country(america atleast). but I do agree that it should be controlled, as it has been stated by people.

[El Sitherino]

on the point of crime. it doesn't neccesarily mean the immigrant will commit the crime but that the immigrant might take the job of say, an american born worker, leaving that worker jobless and possibly making them resort to crime.

 

just thought i'd point that out

[FunClown]

Dagobahn, yeah I would agree, your country is a hippocrate on immigration. Did you hear about the Tampa crises. A Norwegian ship (the Tampa) rescued some boat people trying to get to Australia, then Australia wouldn't allow the Tampa to come into our waters with the boat people.

 

Basically, you guys were saying we were a bad country for not wanting them and then you guys didn't want any either. BTW this was happening in Sep 2001. When they heard about the WTC and Pentagon, they all [the boat people] shot up in laughter.

 

I guess we know why we don't want them.

 

However, in saying this, I am friends with many refugees. In fact most of my friends are refugees. However, these guys came here legally. One of my friends from Sudan had to move to Egypt for five years just so they could immigrate here. They were persecuted Christians. That takes a lot of patience and determination if you ask me. Others were from the fromer Yugoslavia and came from a Christian and Muslim background. Its strange. Most of the Africans are persecuted Christians and the Yugoslavians are persecuted Muslims.

 

The main problem in Australia with the illegal refugees is if they come here saying they are refugees but really are not. That is why they are locked up. Since we really don't know who they are, and really why they are here. (Refer back to the Tampa).

 

If after they have been background checked they are found to be here as genuine refugees they are granted refugee status. If they are found not to be refugees they are deported back on behalf of the Australian tax payer.

[ShockV1.89]

If you're here legally, then go ahead and stay. I think there should be a cap on how many people can come in per year, but that's nothing really new.

 

As for illegal immigrants... unless they are real refugees... throw em out. I dont really understand the argument against deporting illegal immigrants. If you dont want to follow the rules and procedures like everybody else, then why should you be allowed the same rights as everybody else? Get out of my country, come back when you're ready to cooperate.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Dagobahn, yeah I would agree, your country is a hippocrate on immigration. Did you hear about the Tampa crises. A Norwegian ship (the Tampa) rescued some boat people trying to get to Australia, then Australia wouldn't allow the Tampa to come into our waters with the boat people.

I know, doesn't make much sense to have a govt. that doesn't even allow legal, nice immigrants and still expect Australia to take some Talibans in, does it:o?

 

...or, needless to say, if they are "political refugees" fleeing a just retribution, such as Talibans fleeing from the US.

[ninja]

imagration is ok but doing it the right way. meaning going through green cards, visa, or getting married to a citizen.

 

what i do disagree on is illeagal aliens. ones who cross the border or swim over. they take all the jobs available for decent americans who are trying to feed their families. and what ticks me off is american imployers would rather hire illeagals because they dont have to pay them benifits. and they know americans need insurance. and with the economy being bad its only going to get worse.

 

there are poor americans living in nasty conditions. even a bum who is homeless deserves to get a job. but he loses out because an illeagal got the job. and what sucks even more now is some companies that deal with phone operators such as some phone companies, are hiring people from 3rd world contries to do the job. and they fire the americans only to pay a non american less. yes thats right they would rather hire someone in another country because they can pay them less to work on the phones.

 

we need to get rid of all these illeagals because we are suffering here in america. while our government helps people from other countries. when will we ever be helped? "NEVER" cause nobody gives a crap about nobody! i joined the military because my future was'nt looking too good. many companies have been shut down. i strongly suggest you all think about your future and where your place will be. think about your children.

 

i live in california the biggest job opertunity in the states. before 2003 and before joining the military i was out of a job for over 2 years, a real job i mean. i had to settle for a comission job that i hardly got anything from. sometimes i had no money for weeks. i could'nt get a job fliping burgers. i had a good job, i used to be a security guard. then i was able to do loss prevention. for those who dont know its the people who look in the security cameras to catch shop lifters and cuff em. i was getting 17 bucks an hour.

i was working for montgomery wards, that place got shut down and turned into a target store.

then i went to Kmart to do the same thing. they let me go because it was facing bankruptcy at the time. and i could'nt even get a job at carls jr. everyone there hardly even spoke english. and we wonder why we get our orders messed up. theres your answer

[Kurgan]

Incidentally, I would make allowances for people seeking TEMPORARY ASYLUM from persecution.

 

We can protect people until they can be transfered someplace safe to live, without having to be forced to assimilate all of them.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by ninja

they take all the jobs available for decent americans who are trying to feed their families. ... but he loses out because an illeagal got the job. ... we need to get rid of all these illeagals because we are suffering here in america.

 

There's some truth to that, but largely the jobs that illegals do are unwanted by American workers. They're too menial, hard, or dangerous.

 

Most people only see the jobs they take and fail to see what illegals contribute.

 

Immigrants expand our economy by paying for housing, food and other everyday items.

 

Immigrants pay more than $90 billion in taxes every year and receive only $5 billion in welfare.

 

Immigrants, even illegals, create new jobs by forming new businesses, spending their incomes on American goods and services, paying taxes and raising the productivity of U.S. businesses.

 

In addition, in metropolitan areas where there is a high population of illegal immigrants, the local economy is dependent upon the ability to offer low-wages without benifits. The low home prices are undoubtedly due in part to the construction industry's heavy dependence on illegal immigrants. They also keep restaurant checks reasonable because so many immigrants wash the dishes, bus the tables and prepare the food.

 

I'm not suggesting that this is how it should be... only that it is more complicated than we might like to believe.