Datheus Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Ok, now I'm pissed. Let's start with [url=http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108971http://this. First off: I can see things getting more and more hostile as the thread goes further and further. Not much question about that. I half expected it. It could have been a civil discussion--in fact--about god. But no. Let me quote: HaruGlory89 I'm surprised that a moderator hasn't closed this thread yet. This is quite offensive and you're just making a fool of yourself. Ok, what? Close it? Why? Don't tell me "because it's spam." If you do that, I swear to god, I'll slap you with a pile of "Post Funny Pics" and assorted game threads this thick. Offensive? You know what I find offensive? How about anti-sodomy laws that have been appealed for husband and wife, but not for husband and husband (or perhaps wife and wife). You know what I find offensive? A cross swinging from the neck of a fair portion of my high school. You know what I find offensive? The fact that if I were to wear a Satanic (or even possibly Wiccan) symbol tee shirt, I would probably be instructed to turn it inside out for the remainder of the day. You'll make fun of everything within an arms length, but the second the target is on you, suddenly it's offensive? That kind of logic makes my head hurt. I get the funniest (i.e., dirty) looks from people around here when I say that I don't believe in their Christian god. Hell, sometimes I'm even afraid to admit it. Some religious people are zealots. And the only good thing I can say about those people is that'll they die eventually. I'm getting damned sick of these Christian dips. And yes, I know every religion has its fanatics, but we all know Christianity is by far the most dominant religion in America. Oh, and how about Bush saying that Wicca isn't a real religion! Go Mr. Bush! Push that Christian propoganda! So here's my question: What's it going to take? How long is it going to take? Church and State isn't nearly as separated as I'd like to see it. What is it going to take for people to pull their heads out of the sand and look around? How long before we can actually make a change for the better? My take: It won't. Never. Not with this government. I'm personally of the opinion that the government needs to be "burnt down". There need to be some SERIOUS changes in the way things are done in America. It worked fine 200+ years ago when the country was founded, but this is a new day, a new age. We must adapt and prepare for the challenges that we're coming to. The government is yesterdays' government. It needs to be overhauled. I think the fact that the electoral college is still how presidential elections are worked proves my point. I don't have the answers. If I did, I'd be in politics. Or is that the problem--the people who don't have the answers are in charge. All I know is that major changes need to start happening in this country. *puts on flame retardant suit* What do YOU think? Note: I know these sort of problems go beyond Christian faith in America, but that's what is currently pissing me off at the moment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Well no offense, but if you are so really offended by the religion of the majority of the people in your country, you could always consider emigrating to someplace else more to your liking... I know what you're probably thinking next, "But that's a stupid thing to expect me to do! 'Love it or leave it' is fallacious thinking!" But it would be far easier to do that than to "burn down the government" as you say, or force the majority of your neighbors to stop believing in their religion of choice. As I see it, in a supposed "free country" living alongside people you disagree with comes with the territory. And don't for one minute give me the excuse that "oh easy for you to say when you're in the majority!" because despite what you might think, Christianity is not a monolithic entity. 30,000+ denominations, many openly hostile to one another. I am not offended by people with different beliefs, only when they insult mine, but I can live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 *claps* well put datheus. I find it offensive that these christians can complain. but when we do it they don't care and we get pushed aside. I think it's foolish to prohibit gay marriages. I find it offensive that a legal gay marriage isn't recognized by the IRS for gay couples to get the marriage tax deduction. I find it offensive that I get slandered relentlessly for my beliefs to not believe. and noone does anything to stop it from happening to me where as a christian getting slandered, the person attacking would be instantly arrested for harrasment. I find it offensive that people can get away with drowning their kids because they were insane and thought god told them to. I find it offensive that I have to deal with people coming to my door trying to sell me a bible and not leaving until I have to pull my gun out after asking them to leave several times. I find it offensive that I can't wear the clothes I wish to because they aren't in accordance with christianity. I find it offensive that I can't post a thread about god's atrocious acts upon the beings he "lovingly" "created". you datheus, are a brave man for stepping up and speaking this. You are a good man for having inspired me to step up. though if I did this where I live I would be arrested and I wouldn't be allowed to post bail for 2 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Well no offense, but if you are so really offended by the religion of the majority of the people in your country, you could always consider emigrating to someplace else more to your liking... unfortuneately, that's not always a option. Like myself, I can't leave the country or my parents residence and live on my own until I'm 18. By US law I have to go to school. I have to put up with it until I'm 18. Also because of my psychiatric history (being in a mental facility) It's very hard for me to get a passport and even harder to get an airplane ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datheus Posted August 19, 2003 Author Share Posted August 19, 2003 Actually, I don't *want* my neighbor to change his religion... The Christians I met up north were perfectly fine... I find the Christian push to be much stronger down here. I *do* plan to move out of the south. And on the subject of moving out of the country. No. We do have it great here. The government works... but just because it's good doesn't mean it couldn't be gooder[sic] I'm the person in this country that keeps the spirit alive. We never have enough and we push for more. If we just didn't care, we'd be a nasty dictatorship like over somewhere over uh.. there:) I know there are good parts to this country. Lots of them. But I can't stop pushing for it to be better. That IS what brings improvement along. (Note: I was just talking to a friend in fact. We both know a mututal friend. He's a very "trendy goth" He hates Christians just because he can. I hate that crap just as much. It's the bull ignorance that I see is what irks me.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Just where do you live InsaneSith? I'm not going to stalk you, I just wonder where it is you live where you can get arrested simply for insulting another person's religion... If this is just a thread for rantings, then by all means let it out, but I figured this forum was for serious discussions and debating. A good point Datheus. I have met people who are fairly bigotted, both religious and not, but surprisingly very few. I always wondered to myself if I would encounter it in my many trips to the deep south (I guess I had a lot of stereotypes fed to me in my life), but frankly I found most of the people there friendly and outgoing. I have relatives that live there too and they seem to get along fine. I guess it all just depends on the people. I mean there are some situations where certain topics probably just aren't good ideas for discussion (like hiroshima with older Japanese people). I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Just as I would not want them to stereotype me based on what groups I might belong to, I try not to stereotype them according to what groups they belong to. It's hard sometimes (like when it comes to n00bs who are into bowing in JK2... j/k!).... I have met far more bigoted people online actually, who have called me every slur you can think of, and 99.99% without knowing anything about me. It may have something to do with the courage these folks get by hiding behind anonymity (or the fact that any immature person can get an internet account these days). In person, people are more wary, more likely to be outwardly civil (and perhaps checking you out to make sure you're not "an enemy") so at least passing people on the street doesn't turn into a fight. There are exceptions of course, every year you hear about somebody getting killed or whatnot, but its usually for money, rather than pure hatred (though that happens too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I live in Texas. This place is baptist city. sadly I have lots of friends (christian and non christian) and I will stay for them. But yes here you can get arrested for simply opposing christianity publicly. in certain places you can be arrested just for being black. Sadly Texas, like many other southern states are, is still rascist and very biggotous(sp?). They get away with it by covering things up with, unlawful public display or something to the same extent. Sadly the moral fibers in America aren't as good as they say. Sure it's better than say.. China, but it's still bad just being lied to. atleast in China they are told by their government that they are being screwed. also I agree with datheus, America is a good country, but it could be much better if people would just speak out and not have this "patriotism"(standing by the president NO MATTER what he says, or standing by the government NO MATTER what they say/do) see what they claim as patriotism isn't really. what that is, is Culturatism(I believe that's what it was called, I'm not sure right now but I do know that it is foolish) I do love america, the people and the idea it is to have. but as it's current status I do not enjoy. Right now our government is fighting a war which didn't need to occur. Right now our government is taking up time dictating over whether or not senators should be given homes in DC. Instead they could take this time, and tax money that goes to pay for these meetings, to set up laws to protect single parent facilities, abusive home facilities, and many other buildings that are needed to keep families safe from dangers they can avoid. If you can make it better, do so. People need to ditch this "If it's not broken, don't change it" idea and realize that if you can avoid problems, you should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 On the contrary, you can't go a single day without hearing some Christian "leader" or leader who calls himself a Christian complaining about the "moral decay" of America. Put yourself in their shoes for a minute... thousands of abortions a year, divorce as common as marriage, tons of children born out of wedlock, genetic experiments going on without ethics, environmental destruction, drug abuse, the death penalty, poverty, wars, etc. And of course you don't have to be Christian to see some or all of those things as "bad." Yes, being lied to by politicians or feeling slighted by them is bad, but there are far worse things, and these things don't appear to be going away anytime soon. I think that rather than fighting each other, we should fight the larger problems of society, and yes, our leaders have a lot to answer for when they fail or outright further these problems. Usually about the only thing people can agree on anymore is the economy. If the economy is good, politicians can get away with anything, because enough people don't seem to care. PS: I haven't been to Texas. I almost went a few years ago with my family, but I changed plans at the last minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datheus Posted August 19, 2003 Author Share Posted August 19, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan A good point Datheus. I have met people who are fairly bigotted, both religious and not, but surprisingly very few. I always wondered to myself if I would encounter it in my many trips to the deep south (I guess I had a lot of stereotypes fed to me in my life), but frankly I found most of the people there friendly and outgoing. I have relatives that live there too and they seem to get along fine. I guess it all just depends on the people. ... I have met far more bigoted people online actually, who have called me every slur you can think of, and 99.99% without knowing anything about me. It may have something to do with the courage these folks get by hiding behind anonymity (or the fact that any immature person can get an internet account these days). In person, people are more wary, more likely to be outwardly civil (and perhaps checking you out to make sure you're not "an enemy") so at least passing people on the street doesn't turn into a fight. There are exceptions of course, every year you hear about somebody getting killed or whatnot, but its usually for money, rather than pure hatred (though that happens too). To be fully honest, most of these people who I find the worst are the kids. Most are Christian, but still level headed. I have fundemnetal problems with their faith, but they're not pushing it on me, so it's cool... But the kids. Gah... It scares me. I don't think ANYONE should have their mind made up that they're devout Christian when they're still young... It's just very disturbing, almost implies that the thoughts were seeded there. I know a few around here that will be willing to start a fight just for looking at them funny. Probably a good two handful more just for saying that you don't believe in god... that's probably the most scary part. These kids are the leaders of tomorrow.. I just hope they smarten up =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I know what you're saying. But let's look at the flip side. How would you feel about somebody who was a "strong Christian" (meaning convinced of the rightness of their beliefs) that didn't badger you to convert (which is what you resent)? Or how about atheist parents who raise their kids to be atheists? Is that more or less wrong? Are these kids equally brainwashed if they believe what their parents taught is "the right way"? Or is it only if they try to convince others? Why shouldn't parents teach their kids what they feel is the best way to live? When they get older they can always change their beliefs if they no longer agree with what their parents have raised them with. I think its healthy to be able to question your own pre-conceptions, but honestly, how can you expect them to do otherwise? (being rhetorical here) See, I see talking to somebody with the idea of changing their ideas is not wrong. People do it all the time. That's why we have debates, that's why we exchange ideas. Otherwise we would either never communicate or we'd just say what we think and ignore what everyone else says and just go on our merry way (there was no point to the communication at all). I believe in freedom of speech, and that means I have to put up with a lot of speech I disgaree with and some that I frankly find disgusting, but if it were taken away, who knows how long it would be before my speech was deemed inappropriate and removed as well (if it wasn't already)? This gets into a big debate about political correctness and "hate speech" etc which I think you started to touch on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 the thing I said about being lied to by politicians was just a small example of many things that are wrong. at this point after coming home from the first day of school and not having really put extreme thought into things all summer, I find myself a little tired at this point to dig through everything. Sorry about that It was just the first thing on my mind that I could remember and wasn't too tired to be able to explain.(not sure if that last part made sense, but as I've said, I'm a bit tired.) I just wish to get most of my belief across. without being in person this is the best I can do to get my belief across while still being this tired. and the people I was talking about with "patriotism" I meant it to be directed at everyone, not just christians. I'm not a Christian and I feel America has some moral downfalls. and I will share my belief on them, but I will not tell you, you will suffer eternal pain for not sharing the same ideas I do. I do not wish to convert, but to have people expand their minds. If people are persuaded to my belief because they have looked and judged, and weighed, and contemplated, then I will not say I converted them but merely enlightened them to open thought and they chose what they truely believe. If they chose it not because I told them to, it is what they truely believe. I was raised christian, but my family raised me open mindedly all my life, I later decided to not be christian and they are supportive, But then there is my community, the community in which I live is not as supportive, there are a few people that accept my beliefs and there are many that do not, and refuse to. I understand that, but for them to attack me, verbally and physically, for it is ridiculous and offensive. I don't mind them trying to open my mind to their beliefs but telling me sharply and aggresively, that I will suffer eternal pain if I do not believe what they do, I find that very offensive and very hurtful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Btw, I agree with you on the patriotism angle. I think the way some people use it (abuse it) it ends up meaning that they ignore whatever problems exist and just say "we're the best." That's utterly stupid, and it will ruin this country more than it could ever possibly hurt. A true patriot would be somebody who would fight to MAKE his country the best, not blindly assume it is, despite the evidence before him to the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datheus Posted August 20, 2003 Author Share Posted August 20, 2003 Kurgan, you're kind of assuming on what I'm saying... But that's cool, I'm not being very clear... Let's set the record straight... I don't have a problem with religious people. I have a problem with religion. When I'm told repeatedly I'm going to hell for not believing.. that irks me, but if my neighbor simply thinks that I'm wrong and he's right, that's cool. he's got the right to do that. It's when he starts dropping flyers in my mailbox about Church meets and things that. That's when I get annoyed. That's using Chrisitianity as an example. That applies to anything you'll ask me about... As far as kids.. Parents who raise their kids as atheist are just as wrong as people who raise their kids Christian. I'm a very scientific person... I think a child should be informed and given information... Fromt here, he can form his own opinions, rather than having his parents opinions pushed upon him. Granted, even if they are pushed, he would still have the option of changing his mind at an older age... But I don't think that happens very often. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't have a problem with CHRISTIANS... It's when I'm being force fed Christianity.. that's when it bothers me. I walk away whenever possible. You're right though, if I have a right to say that these people preaching it are wrong, they have a right to say that they are correct. Beats the hell out of me, drives me up the wall... But I mean, when people start looking down on me and pushing me on the outside... That's why I get fire in my eyes. That's when I start to get pissed and rant. And again, this is just using Christianity as an example... That's my standpoint on just about EVERYTHING. I don't believe in gay pride, for example. Your homosexuallity isn't my business, so there's no real need for you to parade down main street with big pink penis banners. It's wonderful that you're gay and all, but you don't need to prove it to me. It's *about* the same as me parading about because I have a foot fetish (I don't, for future reference... and I KNOW it's a clunky comparison.. foot fetish to homosexuality... but it's the best I can think of right now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Look, it is impolite to throw religion in peoples' faces, be it christianity, buddhism, or satanism. No matter how peaceful or controversial that religion is. It's even more wrong to try to convert people. But the worst thing is when you try to force trough a law that'll force people to turn away from a lifestyle or a religion because it contradicts with your religious views. Case of point, gay marriage, in which the ban is all about racial bigotry. I'm 99% sure we would have had gay marriage in the USA if it wasn't for christian bigots. "But that's a stupid thing to expect me to do! 'Love it or leave it' is fallacious thinking!" Ditto. By saying "love it or leave it", you sound like someone who can't take critisism. Same with "the world is not fair. Get used to it." If someone complains about unfairness or wrongness, those two arguments simply say "well, I don't care", without giving any sort of argument as to why the person you're talking to is wrong. And I'm pretty sure he wasn't completely serious when he said that he wanted to burn down the White House:p. If your thread was being closed and you thought you were being treated unfairly, would you like for C'Jais to say "well, if you don't like this board, leave it", or would you like him to have a discussion about it with you? I've never really understood gay parades. IMO, it just serves to set gays apart from the heterosexuals. I'm not saying it should be illegall, heck no, not with neo-nazism and KKK and what not being legal. It would be completely out of line (and I wouldn't want them banned if the KKK was banned either, for that sake). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 It seems that the initial rant was kind of an outburst, but that it has leveled out into an interesting topic of discussion. Perhaps it was a good thing that the Swamp thread got closed and you moved that sentiment to the Senate... As to stopping God... that would necessitate the assumption that a god existed. I'm agnostic, so that question is irrelevant until some solid evidence presents itself. But I think the real sentiment lies closer to the thread title, which has been a concern of mine for quite some time. Burying (or burning?) the government isn't the answer (in my limited opinion), but reform certainly is. G.W. Bush has a strong track record of invoking god at a very fundamental level in his rhetoric, speeches and policies. This is inherently wrong and contrary to the intent of the Framers/Founding Fathers... many of whom were agnostic or of the European Enlightenment movement. To make policy for a nation based upon religious ideals excludes any religion that has different ideals. That's not what the United States of America is about. Bush is a solid fundamentalist, but I'm convinced that it is only because that's where he feels the voter base is. There is a strong lack of a willingness to question Bush's policies and it comes from two primary reasons that he has been quick capitalize upon: voter base from fundamental religious views; and strong stance against the other after 9/11. The "other" being malicious Arab entities, regardless of their involvement with 9/11. Datheus, you are right to dissent. Dissention is the true American way. I see a strong parallel with the Bush/Rumsfeld/Ashcroft terrorist "witchhunt" and the original Inquisition... left unchecked and unbalanced, it could lead to something bad. Something very bad. Get that rock-idol called the 10 commandments out of that courthouse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 And I get a ban threatened at me for calling Christianity an upity and flawed religion. Of course, last time I tried defending my beliefs to anyone (not on the forums) I get condemned to Hell by a girl who had a child out of wedlock while she was cheating on her boyfriend, yet I'm the heathen. Such a caring God who'd give me life, not give me any proof of his existance, and condemns me to Hell for not believing in 'Him'. I believe it was SkinWalker with his 'I've Converted' joke that flared alotta Christians anger. And he got flamed the hell outta. Yet if someone like (not being mean, its just the first name that comes to mind) obi-wan13 came and said he'd converted, than said it was a joke, everyone would laugh. And yet, if an atheist got upset 'Well it was just a joke, get over it'. This place is as unbiased as a church on Sunday when it comes to what can be said about religion and what cannot be said. Thank you, Datheus. Thank you for sticking it to the masses. And thank you InsaneSith for helping him. You're my heros now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Christianity in itself is a good religion, actually. Christianity worshipped by fanatics or missionaries, on the other hand, is a flawed religion. As is any religion practiced by fanatics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datheus Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 Yeah... That's basically how I view it... that's why I'm someone uncomfortable with being put on the pedistal as the Anti-Christ (if you will) here... Very few relgions are evil at the core.. it's the people when the come together the corrupt it. It's not the RELIGION that's got its head in its ass... It's the leaders and their self-serving purposes. Normally the under classmen will follow blindly.. because hey, he's the leader, right? And that's what gets to me. This blind ignorance in ALL relgions for no other reason than because their neighbor said it was so. No one bothers to think for themselves... Too scary of a concept for most I suppose... But I'll agree with Mydnight a bit... MODERN Christianity is corrupt. I don't think there's a question about that. The Vatican is hunting down homosexuals (not literally, but you know what I mean) while their fat (gluttony is a sin) child-molesting priests are being protected. Over in the middle east, kids are being brainwashed into throwing their lives away. They're told they'll be in heaven... Giving up your life because you think it will get you in the heaven is actually a sure-fire way to get yourself into hell... People have just lost touch with what religion really is. It's not about praying. It's not about custom. There are 6 billion people in the world. I think god couldn't care less if you prayed every day. Religion is about love, compassion, and sympathy. Sadly, modern religion is destroying all of those. Relgion has become (for centuries now) the equivilant of close-minded elitests.. So I guess it all comes back to what I suppose I could call the main topic of this thread. People following others blindly... Why won't people just open their eyes? I may have less "answers" than the Christian down the street, but if he's a homophobic yahoo, I'd like to think I'll be the one getting into heaven, not him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainer511 Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 As I said, I hate reading long posts, and I don't have too much time on my hands right now So I'm just gunna comment on the topic you posted. That should get some clicks. Good. Now help us stop God! God doesn't make bad things happen, and I'm not going to put all the blame on the devil. Sure the devil will tempt humans, but the final choice is that of the person. I'm not saying that Satan would directly tempt you and because he's tempting you bad things happen, although that could be the case. Rather I'm saying Satan plays human against human. He doesn't care when or how we physically die as long as we suffer and die spiritually. I'm surprised that a moderator hasn't closed this thread yet. This is quite offensive and you're just making a fool of yourself. I agree, I find this very offensive. However, I think that Datheus had the right to post it. Instead of seeing it closed why not have the topic debated? You wouldn't even need to prove God or anything along those lines because the topic would be whether or not God causes bad things to happen. I do see though that if it was not closed, there would have been plenty of flames instead of sensible conversation. Flawed religion? Prepare to get flamed by many of people. (Ignores flawed religion part) As I said this would probably happen, but should it? I don't just mean because the board rules says that you can't flame, but seriously should that be the response you get from a Christian? Just throwing something back into someone else’s face does nothing but make you look bad, and if you’re saying you are Christian and you're doing that then you make Christianity look bad. I think it's the conduct of Christians on the internet that makes so many Techies have such negative opinions on Christians and Christianity. The fact that if I were to wear a Satanic (or even possibly Wiccan) symbol tee shirt, I would probably be instructed to turn it inside out for the remainder of the day. In this, I agree with you, can't say much for the rest of the post though. In America, "legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." No law respecting the establishment of a religion, or prohibiting the exercise of one. Christians should be able to wear their crosses and Wicca, well whatever Wicca would wear (don't know much about the religion.) Oh, and how about Bush saying that Wicca isn't a real religion! Go Mr. Bush! Push that Christian propoganda! I don't know where you got that from, but if it's true, then I have to say I can't agree or disagree with him. It really depends on your view on religion. Now as I said I don't know much about Wicca but if I'm right I don't think they establish a supernatural power or powers that created and governs the universe. If that's true though they still have a system of beliefs and their own view on the world. Now If you're going to consider Wicca a religion then you can assume that Atheism is a religion on the same grounds. Don't you just hate the English language? Far too ambiguous. I wouldn't hold this as Christian propoganda. Church and State isn't nearly as separated as I'd like to see it. Two things to relize here. First is that Seperation of Church and state isn't from our constitution, but rather from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote ensuring that you would be able to worship God they way you want because of the quote I made earlier on. Second is that just because Christian morals are enforced by the government doesn't mean that the government is endorsing it as a religion. Look at it this way, if a Christian is in politics should you automatically view him as inferrior and out of his own ground? Because he doesn't hold a humanist worldview his opinion doesn't matter? How about this, thou shalt not kill, because that is enforced by the Bible does that mean it has no grounds in the lawss of our government? Or do you think that people should be free to kill whomever they want without punishment? I realize this is an extreme, but this is what this mindset seems to be implying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datheus Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 Just because separation of Church and State isn't in the Constitution doesn't mean I can't think it's correct. Thou shalt not kill is far from a strict Christian moral.. I think we can agree most people since the beginning have time--regardless of religion--have believed killing is wrong. And a politition who is into ...politics would not be conceited simply because he is of the Christian faith. Obviously, as a citizen of America he has every right to be Christian. The problem is when he allows his votes to sway under his belief, rather than the desire of the people he represents. That's why I'm so forceful about separation of Church and State... Ok, so most Christian morals are good things to live by, Christian or not. I won't argue that. It's true. But you let Christianity play an active, obvious role the government, eventually Congress WILL start to pass laws that favor Christianity over other religions. I'm very extreme about that. The smallest changes now make the biggest differences later. Rome was not built in a day, but it did not fall in a day either. I think the most current example is the 10 Commandemts issue in Alabama... Now, there's nothing wrong with them. You could lead a good life living by the them. But to know that a court has them on display makes me feel a little uneasy. Although it may rarely be the case (that's personal opinion) it seems to suggest that a judge could make his decisions based on Christianity rather than that grey, neutral area that I think the government should be. I'm not going to touch what you said as far as Christian beliefs go (eg, god does not cause bad things to happen) because that will go no where fast. I'll settle to just know we're at odds on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 also i wish to point out that it's not just christians i hate trying to sell me things such as holy books, it is just the fact that many times they won't go away until I use hostile force, by which i mean i have to pull out my gun to get them to leave after spending several minutes asking them politely to leave my house. By law if i ask them to leave and they don't it is considered trespassing and i am allowed to shoot them without fine or punsihment. I do not wish to shoot anyone but if you do not leave when i ask i will be given no choice but to fire a shot, whether it hits you or not depends on how aggresive you are. I have not only had to pull out my gun on christians though. I have had to pull it out on many people. one was a hostile father that threatened me to buy his daughter's, whom was a girl scout, cookies. at this point i asked him to leave and he chose to stay and yell at me and try to intimidate me into buying cookies(i am 16 now this was 1.5 years ago making me 14.5) i did not have a job and i was left alone in the house most of the day. I have a firearm permit and i'm allowed to carry a sidearm and i'm allowed to use deadly force if i am threatened and harrased. this man proceeded to threaten me even try to step into my house. at this point i pulled out my gun and fired a shot .5" away from his ear. he immediately left. after that i sold my gun and have used my katana since to get people to leave. I have had only 2 dangerous confrontations. one was with a klansman and his wife. i was forced to fire into the mans leg to stop him from entering my house. he was carrying a large hunting knife and continued calling me a threat to the white race. i had asked him to leave and eventually after 30 minutes of asking him to leave (i had closed the door many times) he hadn't left and i was forced to shoot him in the knee to keep him from possibly using his knife against me while trying to enter my house. i shot him with my fathers pistol, this was not too long ago, just a few weeks before i had joined this forum. my dad has sold his gun since then. thank you for reading my post and taking the time to understand all i have encountered that has posed threats to me. I have many other stories of my door to door events but many i don't have the time to describe nor enough memory of all of it to tell accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 I'm begining to notice a really aggravating pattern on these forums: If a Christian finds something offensive, the thread gets closed or the thread starter gets warned. But if an atheist or someone else is offended by what a Christian says? What happens then? He gets ignored. The unbiasedness(is it a word) and hypocracies here are as thick as the Bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Originally posted by MydnightPsion I'm begining to notice a really aggravating pattern on these forums: If a Christian finds something offensive, the thread gets closed or the thread starter gets warned. But if an atheist or someone else is offended by what a Christian says? What happens then? He gets ignored. The unbiasedness(is it a word) and hypocracies here are as thick as the Bible In this forum, the Senate Chambers, any thread of serious discussion is free to remain open as long as it adheres to the rules. Namely "You cannot, in any way, insult (or "flame") someone else on the board." I interpret that to mean no ad hominem attacks. No personal attacks. Attacking concepts, ideas, theories, and beliefs is allowed so long as doesn't degenerate to violating rules #2 and #3: " Refrain from using excessive profanity," and "Spamming is strictly prohibited." Number 2 is clear enough, but I interpret #3 to include simply making brash statements like "[insert belief] sux and all who believe it deserve to die." An extraordinary statement like that requires an extraordinary validation. Otherwise I would warn the poster and edit the post. My goal (and I think I speak for C'Jais) is to keep interesting discussions going, but with civil tone. Anger, disagreement, and even hatred aren't necessarily unacceptable. The delivery of those tones is what matters. So far, this thread has been interesting and civil. But you have to understand, it is expected that interpretations of "insult" and "spam" are to be different here in the Senate, though direct insults are never permitted on LucasForums. "You suck" is a direct insult. "Your beliefs suck" is an indirect insult and can be said if validated. Without additional information to validate why someone's beliefs suck, it is spam. It would matter not if the comment came from a theist or an atheist, the rules apply regardless. Sorry to interject all that, I just wanted everyone to be on the same page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 I'm begining to notice a really aggravating pattern on these forums: If a Christian finds something offensive, the thread gets closed or the thread starter gets warned. But if an atheist or someone else is offended by what a Christian says? What happens then? He gets ignored. The unbiasedness(is it a word) and hypocracies here are as thick as the Bible Well, the anti-homosexuality thread got closed mainly on the basis of what christian bigots thought about gays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle Well, the anti-homosexuality thread got closed mainly on the basis of what christian bigots thought about gays. They were flat out insulting gays. I'm not. I'm saying that some of the mods here are FAR to biased to Christians. I'm sure if Bush had his way, being anything not Christian would be illegal and we'd be no better off than Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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