pbguy1211 Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Originally posted by Tie Guy There is. It's called "work." You get a job, you get healthcare, simple as that. People too lazy/uneducated etc. to get a fulltime job don't get or frankly deserve healthcare. Um actually it isn't that simple. and you obviously don't know what the hell you're talking about. What about single mothers who can't afford to work fulltime? What about self employed people in small businesses? What about the health care that doesn't cover entire families? Or doesn't cover the things a good dental plan should. Please go get a job yourself so you can buy a clue next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havoc Stryphe Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 *sigh* My words have semingly fallen on deaf ears... Let's try not to get personal fellas, keep the insults/digs to a minimum please. Let's keep this a debate and not an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Jones Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 hmmm... i guess someone has to play the "big daddy" and i prefer more the (btw good equipped) US to take this role than others or noone. On the other hand: war should never be a solution. But some "people" must learn "respect". What would be, if noone ever had stepped up against Hitler? [edit] Another way would be perhabs a international troup to fulfill such "global police operations". It's just not good to let people like Saddam and co walk around and kill people like they want to .. it is too dangerous for us all. As long as mankind hasnt recognized what it ("our life on earth") is really about, someone has to watch out and "keep peace" as far and good as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Originally posted by pbguy1211 Um actually it isn't that simple. and you obviously don't know what the hell you're talking about. What about single mothers who can't afford to work fulltime? What about self employed people in small businesses? What about the health care that doesn't cover entire families? Or doesn't cover the things a good dental plan should. Please go get a job yourself so you can buy a clue next time. What? If you work fulltime for a business, then they provide you some form of healthcare, period. If you work for yourself, then your healthcare is part of your expenses, as is that of your employees. It really is that simple. Providing health care for your family, if you work fulltime, really shouldn't be a problem, though most plans that i know of provide care for families. And i do know because my dad owns a business. Dental care is far from neccessary in most situations, though good companies do provide it. Especially since dental problems can be relatively easily prevented. Besides, it's not the government's job to take care of you, it yours. That's the real problem here. We have a need (in this case healthcare) and so instead of working hard to get it, we act like we somehow deserve it and demand it from the government. And even if the government did provide it, it wouldn't be for free, because it would have to be paid for in taxes, taxes that come from the people in the first place. And then we get into the issue of stealing from the hard-working middle and upper classes and give it to the many times apathetic, lazy, or otherwise undeserving (though often pitiable) lower classes. And then those people depend on the government for help, so they have absolutely no incentive to go out a get a job, because the government (and thereby the hard-working people of America) gives it to them for nothing. And while we're at it, why don't we just give them checks so they never have to work in their life to get by? Oh wait! We already do! We're setting up a crutch that cripples the poor and can deprive them of any need or desire to work and better themselves and the country. Oh, and as for single mothers who can't work fulltime, that's unfortunate. But should the government, and the people of America, pay for that women's mistake? No. And quite frankly, they should just work fulltime. It's unfortunate to be sure, but they put themselves in that situation (unless their husband died, which is very rare) so why should I have to pay for her healthcare? The role of the government is to protect the rights of the people, and that is all. It is NOT to support them or give them freebies when they make a mistake or fall down. That's the individual's, the family's, and the community's role. This issue right here is the number one problem, i think, with political thought of this time, not to mention one of the largest dividing lines between liberals and conservatives. Don't try to thrust personal problems upon the government simply because you can't solve it yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbguy1211 Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Originally posted by Tie Guy What? If you work fulltime for a business, then they provide you some form of healthcare, period. If you work for yourself, then your healthcare is part of your expenses, as is that of your employees. It really is that simple. Providing health care for your family, if you work fulltime, really shouldn't be a problem, though most plans that i know of provide care for families. And i do know because my dad owns a business. Dental care is far from neccessary in most situations, though good companies do provide it. Especially since dental problems can be relatively easily prevented. Besides, it's not the government's job to take care of you, it yours. That's the real problem here. We have a need (in this case healthcare) and so instead of working hard to get it, we act like we somehow deserve it and demand it from the government. And even if the government did provide it, it wouldn't be for free, because it would have to be paid for in taxes, taxes that come from the people in the first place. And then we get into the issue of stealing from the hard-working middle and upper classes and give it to the many times apathetic, lazy, or otherwise undeserving (though often pitiable) lower classes. And then those people depend on the government for help, so they have absolutely no incentive to go out a get a job, because the government (and thereby the hard-working people of America) gives it to them for nothing. And while we're at it, why don't we just give them checks so they never have to work in their life to get by? Oh wait! We already do! We're setting up a crutch that cripples the poor and can deprive them of any need or desire to work and better themselves and the country. Oh, and as for single mothers who can't work fulltime, that's unfortunate. But should the government, and the people of America, pay for that women's mistake? No. And quite frankly, they should just work fulltime. It's unfortunate to be sure, but they put themselves in that situation (unless their husband died, which is very rare) so why should I have to pay for her healthcare? The role of the government is to protect the rights of the people, and that is all. It is NOT to support them or give them freebies when they make a mistake or fall down. That's the individual's, the family's, and the community's role. This issue right here is the number one problem, i think, with political thought of this time, not to mention one of the largest dividing lines between liberals and conservatives. Don't try to thrust personal problems upon the government simply because you can't solve it yourself. You're not looking at the big picture and you're not hearing what I'm saying... so I will not continue this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Originally posted by Tie Guy 1.What? If you work fulltime for a business, then they provide you some form of healthcare, period. If you work for yourself, then your healthcare is part of your expenses, as is that of your employees. It really is that simple. Providing health care for your family, if you work fulltime, really shouldn't be a problem, though most plans that i know of provide care for families. And i do know because my dad owns a business. Dental care is far from neccessary in most situations, though good companies do provide it. Especially since dental problems can be relatively easily prevented. 2.Besides, it's not the government's job to take care of you, it yours. That's the real problem here. We have a need (in this case healthcare) and so instead of working hard to get it, we act like we somehow deserve it and demand it from the government. And even if the government did provide it, it wouldn't be for free, because it would have to be paid for in taxes, taxes that come from the people in the first place. And then we get into the issue of stealing from the hard-working middle and upper classes and give it to the many times apathetic, lazy, or otherwise undeserving (though often pitiable) lower classes. And then those people depend on the government for help, so they have absolutely no incentive to go out a get a job, because the government (and thereby the hard-working people of America) gives it to them for nothing. And while we're at it, why don't we just give them checks so they never have to work in their life to get by? Oh wait! We already do! We're setting up a crutch that cripples the poor and can deprive them of any need or desire to work and better themselves and the country. 3.Oh, and as for single mothers who can't work fulltime, that's unfortunate. But should the government, and the people of America, pay for that women's mistake? No. And quite frankly, they should just work fulltime. It's unfortunate to be sure, but they put themselves in that situation (unless their husband died, which is very rare) so why should I have to pay for her healthcare? 4.The role of the government is to protect the rights of the people, and that is all. It is NOT to support them or give them freebies when they make a mistake or fall down. That's the individual's, the family's, and the community's role. This issue right here is the number one problem, i think, with political thought of this time, not to mention one of the largest dividing lines between liberals and conservatives. Don't try to thrust personal problems upon the government simply because you can't solve it yourself. 1. If you work for yourself you have NO WAY to get decent healthcare. What if you're hospitalized for a few days? It costs 10 000+. Now if you're so rich and wealthy to find 10grand just like that... 2. We have the same problem here in Canada. The government does give money to people. But it's barely enough to make you live(200$ believe me ain't a lot). Some shout against that, but what the hell? Some of them deserve help, some of them don't, who are we to judge them? 3. Yeah let those bitch and their KIDS die. yeah... 4. You're right it is not the government's job to totally support you. No doubt about that. One day if you need help, don't come crying to anyone. Havoc- Nah I heard you man. Well we already do all of that:p besides, shouting relieves us and heck it's better to shout at them about their actions then letting do everything they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygomaticus Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad 1. If you work for yourself you have NO WAY to get decent healthcare. What if you're hospitalized for a few days? It costs 10 000+. Now if you're so rich and wealthy to find 10grand just like that... 3. Yeah let those bitch and their KIDS die. yeah... 1. Perhaps I speak from limited experience, but people get insurance for this kind of problem, to help pay for the expenses. 3. Maybe I'm a heartless, pathetic, fool who has never faced a similar hardship, but when you create a problem for yourself, you work extra-hard to solve it. Now, like Tie Guy said, if it was no mistake, and the husband died, then that's another case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 1. What happens if you can't get insurance? Let them die? 3. And in the meantime those kids have nothing to wear, nothing to eat...Of course you have to work extra-hard! and what if their husband left them? what if he's a violent guy and she made a mistake? should the kids suffer from her mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 1. If you work for yourself you have NO WAY to get decent healthcare. What if you're hospitalized for a few days? It costs 10 000+. Now if you're so rich and wealthy to find 10grand just like that... We're talking health insurance here, not paying for the healthcare itself. And it is possible, because like i said, my dad owns a small business and works for himself, and we have perfectly good healthcare. 3. Yeah let those bitch and their KIDS die. yeah... Alright, that is NOT what i said. Besides, you're the one who said that government funding can't support people. What i did say is that instead of whining to the government she should go out and get a job like everyone else or make due with what she has. I know she may have to make some sacrifices (like not being with her child all the time), but that's life, ain't it? And it's her problem, not the governments, and certainly not mine or other taxpayers. 4. You're right it is not the government's job to totally support you. No doubt about that. One day if you need help, don't come crying to anyone. You can be assured that i won't. I would get rid of medicare and social security if i could, for myself included. That would put money back in the pockets of people so they could get their own health insurance if they wanted to supplement their private pension plans, or they could use it for whatever they desired, stimulating the economy in the meantime, which would only help their 401ks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Originally posted by Tie Guy 1. Alright, that is NOT what i said. Besides, you're the one who said that government funding can't support people. What i did say is that instead of whining to the government she should go out and get a job like everyone else or make due with what she has. I know she may have to make some sacrifices (like not being with her child all the time), but that's life, ain't it? And it's her problem, not the governments, and certainly not mine or other taxpayers. 2. You can be assured that i won't. I would get rid of medicare and social security if i could, for myself included. That would put money back in the pockets of people so they could get their own health insurance if they wanted to supplement their private pension plans, or they could use it for whatever they desired, stimulating the economy in the meantime, which would only help their 401ks. 1. She won't whine. it's not about whining it's about having the decency to help someone in need. Like I said, who are you to judge people's situation? 2. When you're gonna have a family to take care of, you'll think again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbguy1211 Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Originally posted by Tie Guy We're talking health insurance here, not paying for the healthcare itself. And it is possible, because like i said, my dad owns a small business and works for himself, and we have perfectly good healthcare. If your dad has a small business, and you have health care, he pays for it. And it ain't cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygomaticus Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad 1. What happens if you can't get insurance? Let them die? 3. And in the meantime those kids have nothing to wear, nothing to eat...Of course you have to work extra-hard! and what if their husband left them? what if he's a violent guy and she made a mistake? should the kids suffer from her mistake? 1. As I warned, I spake from limited experience. I was hoping you might have a solution if that was the case. 3. People who work extra-hard aren't left with nothing to wear and nothing to eat. If she was diligent enough to atleast finish high school, a reasonable paying job isn't difficult to get. You're talking of extreme cases which aren't many - and when there is an extreme case there are solutions, like, Shepherd's Gate, for example It's interesting how this topic evolved. Why are we debating this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 1. What happens if you can't get insurance? Let them die? 3. And in the meantime those kids have nothing to wear, nothing to eat...Of course you have to work extra-hard! and what if their husband left them? what if he's a violent guy and she made a mistake? should the kids suffer from her mistake? Like i said, you work-extra hard and make some sacrifices to provide the essentials (food, clothing, healthcare, shelter, etc) for your kids. If you are working full time, and you spend you're money efficently, without wasting it, then you will be able to afford the neccessities. And somehow i missed the part where it became my responsibity to care for single mothers as a whole and my fault when they didn't get by. No, it's their fault, or the fault of their family for not taking care of her. I know liberals want to solve everything with government programs, but its not the government's fault or responsibility either. The government can't solve people's individual problems, because that's not the purpose of government. Even so we try, and it always has proved way beyond their capacity and that doesn't really help all that much. Medicare and social security and other similar programs may have been great for the Great Depression, but now they are simply wasting a lot of money relative to the amount of people they are really helping. Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad 2. When you're gonna have a family to take care of, you'll think again. Oh, and i suppose since you're sixteen and all you already know perfectly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbguy1211 Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Tie Guy, I have a few questions for you... A: How old are you? B: Have you ever had a real job? C: Do you realize how much real world things cost? Single mothers can't find the greatest jobs on the planet due to the hours they'd need and the fact that they'll most likely need a sitter/nanny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 I'm sixteen but by god I know what I'm talking about. Do you think I'm rich? Do you think being born in a family of Viet Nam war refugees means havin everything I want???? Well happy for you if your family never had money problems and your father never had to make money over here so he can send it back to his brothers and sisters still over there!!!! I know very well what I'm talking about. Hey it's not my job to help old ladies crossing the street but I do it anyway. Hey it's not my job to help people in need. It's not my job for having sympathy for people living of the street. Hey it's the fault of old people for aging. Let them die alone in their little house away from everyone. Hey it's the fault of immigrants for being poor when coming over here. You certainly are a very generous being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphi's Clone Posted August 23, 2003 Author Share Posted August 23, 2003 I totally agree with Tie Guy and Krkode. Well luke and PBGuy i guess you two are very nice and overly generouse. Personally if you want to give your money away i'm fine with that. But no one will ever force me to make someone els have a good life. If i do it i do it out of charity, not because i'm forced to. And honesly I need my money, and no one will ever take away my hard earned cash. If you work hard enough anything is possible. Most poor people in america are poor because they didnt work hard enough in their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Tie Guy, I have a few questions for you... A: How old are you? B: Have you ever had a real job? C: Do you realize how much real world things cost?[/b] I'm seventeen. I have a real job, though not one that gives healthcare benefits, if that's what you mean. I realize things how much things in the "real world" cost. I also know that if you shop around and spend your money efficiently, it can go much further. How do i know? Because i do, and my mom does religiously. She hardly ever buys anything special that's not on sale or without a coupon. Luke, i guess you think i'm rich or something, but that's far from the truth. Now my family has plenty of money for what we need, and my dad's business is doing well, though it's still pretty small. But there were times, especially a few years ago when he was getting started, that money was tight. We never lived on the street or missed meals, but money was tight, and we were sending anywhere from 2 to 4 kids to private school at great sacrifice. But we did fine, because we spent money only on what we needed. If i wanted something, i could wait till christmas or buy it myself. That's still how it works. As a 3rd child of 4, i don't get whatever i want, i get little of what i want (except on special occasions) unless i go out and buy it myself. And you know what, i work hard and earn money and buy the things i want. That's how life works. You can do whatever you want as long as you work hard and are willing to sacrifice. Case and point, i'm working extremely hard in school and sacrificing a lot of fun things, but i'm going to earn almost 50 hours of college credit before i even step on campus, and that means scholarships, and less time at college, and that means money to college on so my parents don't have to scrape. And it's worth it, because i earned it, not because I was given it, or needed to be given it. NOTE: I'm NOT saying that if someone needed help in my family or among my friends that i wouldn't help them however i could. I'm only saying it's not the government's responsibility to take care of the economic status of the people, it's the people's themselves. What if the government did what you propose it should? I'll tell you this, they first would have to take most of your money in taxes to pay for it. And then, since there are more people needing care than pay taxes, the entire program, and ultimately the government itself, would go bankrupt. Medicare/Medicaid already is going bankrupt and it's influence is very small. Maybe it's not your job to help old ladies, and maybe you still do it, but you don't spend other people's money to help old ladies. It's entirely different. Oh, BTW, you might have heard of a word called "pension." Old people who worked when they were young keep getting benefits when they retire. So if they worked when they could, they wouldn't need government's help to keep them from dying in a shack somewhere. And you make it sound like the government is all these poor old people can depend on. Where are those people's families while they are dying in a shack somewhere from a lack of government-funded health insurance? Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 If the damn government would stop spending so much on it's stupid military it would have more cash to give to the people. I think it's something like 30% of the taxes you pay that goes to the military. You don't have to pay more taxes. You said it yourself. The government is there to protect people's rights. Isn't it a right to have a bit of money when in trouble? Isn't it a right to be healthy? If you so kindly give so much tax money so weapons even deadlier then now can be create, why can't you give that to a better cause? I'm sorry you don't really how much money the government should give them if they need it. Here it's like 200$ per month equalling 2400$ per year. It's just to keep them alive until they can find a job and a place to live. Is that asking to much? Besidea how can they live with 2400$ per year? I'm not asking your government to pay them eveything. Over here in Québec we are the most taxed people in North America. Some complaint, some don't. But we get really cheap electricity, free healthcare for anyone and everyone, and a "in case of extreme emergency" help from the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad If the damn government would stop spending so much on it's stupid military it would have more cash to give to the people. I think it's something like 30% of the taxes you pay that goes to the military. You don't have to pay more taxes. You said it yourself. The government is there to protect people's rights. Isn't it a right to have a bit of money when in trouble? Isn't it a right to be healthy? If you so kindly give so much tax money so weapons even deadlier then now can be create, why can't you give that to a better cause? uh...no. The government spends a relatively miniscule amount on the military. Most of the money we spend goes to education grants and prgrams, then the social welfare programs we are talking about. And still those programs hardly do anything. Military spending is small compared to those. You just think it is a lot because all Canada has is a few mounties and some canoes. You better hope no one tries to invade you. Oh wait, nevermind, you'll be fine if that happens, because we, the United States, will protect you. A country needs a strong military for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is so that it can deploy peace-keeping or interventionary troops to it's allies who are in trouble, or to those places that threaten it. If the US had Canada's military, the Iraqi people would still be being tortured by Sadam and his sadistic sons right now, and the few thousand terrorists that were in northern Iraq would still be on the loose. No, the government needs to stop trying to "help" people with these programs and just give them their money back. If we cut the programs, everyone would get massive tax breaks, untimately putting tons of money back in their pockets, more money than a government program could ever give them. An no, you do not have a right to a job, or to money, even when you are in trouble. The problem is that people think they do. Instead of working hard to find a job or get by on what they have, they act like they have some god-given "right" to some money when they haven't earned it. Basic human rights that the government protects are life, liberty (through things such as the Bill of Rights), and opportunity (aka the pursiut of happiness). That's all. Money, help, free things when you're down, a house, none of those are on the list. The government should protect people's freedom and opportunity to get a job and support themselves, not try to help them get that job, or to support them if they can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Canada doesn't need a huge military because unlike others we don't make enemies or have any. argh... this is getting pointless... You don't even understand that it's not reall free that some people deserve it and that you judge people before knowing what's happening. By that way, you turn down the opportunity for others, the people who need help, to actually have help. Some will take advantage of it of course, but they'll all pay for it someday. Oh and by the way, there's more to any country in the world then stupid stereotypes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygomaticus Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Not all "enemies" have to be provoked. What if they make you their enemies? It probably hasn't happened to Canada, I don't know why, but I think I know why it happens to the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 A quite humorous answer would be the cold temperatures of winter. It's well known throughout history that it plays a major role. Napoleon lost 500 000 men in Russia due to the winter. French Canadian Forces pushed back an assault from the Americans because of the winter. German Soldiers couldn't beat the Soviets because of the harsh winter temperatures. IT happened in the past that Canada was made the enemy of someone but these days nobody cares about this lost country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygomaticus Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Then don't you think this Canada doesn't need a huge military because unlike others we don't make enemies or have any. needs revision to this, perhaps? Canada doesn't need a huge military because unlike (like, in some cases) others Mother nature takes care of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphi's Clone Posted August 24, 2003 Author Share Posted August 24, 2003 Tie guy is right No one no matter what their situation, deserves my money. The only money i give is for my protection and that is a good military, police ETC. If i want insurance i get my own. Most americans get their own. And if they cant afford it theyre problem. I dont care what their situation if they cant afford food they aint gettin my money, if they are stupid enoug let em shrivel up on the streets and die (which wouldnt happen because churches help those people get food) Honestly if a mother cant afford her child, screw her take the child to an orfanage and let the mom get a job or beacome a street begger. Honeslty i dont give a damn about the people and how they get themselfs into it, and if its even their fault. I dont care they dont deserve my money. Honesly luke your dumb, we need a military and a damn big one cause if we didnt countrys would kill us. Why do they hate us? Because they are so jelouse of America, why are they jellouse of us? Because we are so successfull. SO you are right with that luke. Canada has nothing to worry about. Who would ever be jelouse of canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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