Admiral Vostok's plan for SWGB2

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

1.I thought the flamer would add a bit of variety. After all, we don't see tauntaun riders with ranged attacks either.

 

2.As compensation though the Alliance Centre will support more population than other Command Centre equivalents.

 

1. Ok well...hmmm...I guess so but still it seems weird.

 

2. seems fine now, you should add that to avoid further confusion.

[Darth Windu]

1. Personally, i think flamer's are a bad idea. Trying to keep as close to Star Wars as possible, i have actually updated my confederacy idea with the 'IG Lancer Droid' replacing the previous Confed scout unit.

 

As for trenches Vostok, it seems rather complicated to build trenches that can be destroyed, because that also means you have to maintain these small defences. Instead, my Rebel Infantry entrench themselves with no extra cost but the same benefits.

[Admiral Vostok]

1. What would you suggest instead of the flamer? I want to make them good against Mechs for balance, so maybe grenades? Or should they not be good against mechs and just be a non-specialty unit?

 

2. Shall make the Alliance Centre pop changes soon.

 

3. I think trenches need to be destroyable. They can be used as a barrier against infantry so if they aren't destroyable you can effectively deny infantry access to an area. My trenches are at no extra cost too, and are not repairable. Just having Rebels entrench themselves is both unrealistic and too similar to Red Alert 2.

[Darth Windu]

Well with trenches, i agree that my idea is similar to RA2, but i think it is also superior and more realistic because-

 

1. It allows more flexability

2. It makes Rebel infantry more powerful in the absence of mechs

3. It (sort of) goes along with the films

4. Allows more effective Rebel defences

5. Doesnt add tedious construction work

[Admiral Vostok]

I disagree entirely, especially with the notion that yours is realistic.

 

1. Trenches aren't supposed to be flexible.

2. My Rebel Aircraft are what make up for the absence of Mechs, as it should be.

3. Yours in no way reflects the films, mine does entirely.

4. Having simplistic trenching your way will turn into more of an offensive ability rather than defensive, just as it did in RA2.

5. Trenches are tedious construction work, how is it realistic for things to be the complete opposite?

 

Now, how about some of my other Rebel ideas:

Resource Skiff (like the AoM Norse Ox Cart) - note, Windu, that while this is taken from another game it is less obscure and more relevant to Star Wars.

Smuggler - I'm unsure whether making him an Air unit will overpower Rebel trading.

X-Wings and Y-Wings carrying Astromechs to increase their stats - I thought this would be an interesting way to add more uniqueness to Rebel Workers, and emphasise the fact that only a few of the Rebel Aircraft use Astromechs unlike the Naboo who all use Astromechs or other civs which don't use any.

Power Generator - I wanted the Rebels to use only power droids but thought this would make them too weak late game, so added the power generator.

Airspeeder special ability with tow cable.

Units like the Strike Guerilla, Demolition Expert and Bothan Spy.

[Darth Windu]

I disagree Vostok

1. I didnt say Trenches would be flexible, but that the Rebel infantry would be more flexible

 

2. I mean on the ground...

 

3. That is rubbish. In the film, the Rebels used trenches, in my idea, the Rebels use trenches

 

4. Not true, the time taken to get into/out of a trench during which Rebel infantry cannot fire should suffice in that regard

 

5. If they are tedious to build, no-one will build them!

[clonedjedi]

These treanches better be coming into game in the 3rd tech level Rebels will be way overpowered in early rushes and gaming with them in t2.

 

There is no way in hell im having a game based on the crappy aom in the 1st place noone on the zone who still plays the 1st one likes aom its crap.

[saberhagen]

I don't think trenches should be an impassable barrier to enemy troopers as that would detract from gameplay and realism. Maybe they should just give defending troopers a bonus like +1 armour or something. They could be impassable to some/all mechs or heavy weapons at first, but then there could be an upgrade you can research later that lets your vehicles go over trenches.

 

Every building in SWGB takes time and resources to build, but if a building is necessary and the cost is reasonable, people will build it in order to win.

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu -

1. Well yes, your troopers are more "flexible" because they can build a trench anywhere. This is entirely unrealistic though.

2. I mean in the air. What's the difference? Air should be better integrated and therefore interchangable with ground.

3. Correction: mine use trenches like the movie. Your dig seperate one-man holes, for which the name "trench" is totally unacceptable.

4. What I'm saying is that since your idea is the one from RA2, we'll see the exact same gameplay as we did in that game: Rebel Troopers will walk into an enemy base and entrench themselves... totally wrong as I'm sure you'll agree.

5. Everything is "tedious" to build. Maybe tedious is the wrong word... What I mean is it takes a bit more thinking much like wall placement.

 

Frozted -

If used Windu's way it would be overpowered in early tech levels, but my way it is just like building walls or turrets. And I didn't say the whole thing was based on AoM, I just said the Resource Skiff was.

 

Saberhagen -

I mean the trenches to be sort of a different kind of wall the Rebels can build. I thought limiting Infantry, while not entirely realistic, also isn't unrealistic, so for the purposes of gameplay I added it. Making it impassable to Mechs at all would be unrealistic, they can just step/hover/wheel right over a trench.

[clonedjedi]

I still think it is gonna over power them if given in t1 or 2.

[Admiral Vostok]

I think t2 would be acceptable, since that is when you can get medium walls and turrets currently, and they aren't overpowered. T1, you're probably right, would be too powerful.

[saberhagen]

Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

Making it impassable to Mechs at all would be unrealistic, they can just step/hover/wheel right over a trench.

 

Oh yeah. I obviously wasn't thinking when I posted that!

 

 

while not entirely realistic, also isn't unrealistic

 

What??? Were you one of John Major's spin doctors in another life? (That will probably be lost on most if not all of you).

[Admiral Vostok]

What I meant was that it is not realistic for infantry to be totally blocked off by trenches, but on the other it also isn't realistic for it to not stop them at all. So making it impassable to infantry makes for an interesting spin gameplay wise. Besides, the only trench type of trench that enemy infantry could realistically get past is an unmanned one, and if enemy infantry come across an unmanned trench they can easily destroy it to get past.

 

So in conclusion making it impassable to infantry is more realistic and better gameplay than I had originally realised.

 

If you can make sense of the above post I salute you.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok-

1. No it isnt. Are you saying that you can only build trenches in certain places and not others?

 

2. Not true. Air will never be interchangable with ground. The Rebels will have a strong air force, but my trench system gives their infantry some support against mechs, just as it did in ESB

 

3. Again, wrong (you're on a roll). My trenches would perform exactly the same function for the rebels as it did in the films.

 

4. Wrong. The CONCEPT comes from RA2, not the UNIT. My trenching would take longer to simulate a trench being dug, and during the time that a Rebel is entrnching themself, they would be unable to attack. The problem with RA2 was that the effect was instant, mine isnt.

 

5. No, it isnt. Something is tedious when you dont want to build it or make use of it, and that is the fate your trenches will suffer. Mine, on the other hand, are easy to use and hence will be used a lot more. Your idea also suffers from the fact that it has to be built section by section, and that without garrisoning troops in it, it is utterly useless.

[Admiral Vostok]

1. What I mean is you shouldn't be able to run into an enemy base and build a trench. However, if your trenchers build slower and are more vulnerable than the ones in RA2 then that would be okay.

 

2. Mine does too.

 

3. This is your only point I strongly disagree with, so concentrate on this. Explain to me how a single trooper in his own personal hole was anything like what we saw in the movies.

 

4. Fine then.

 

5. Actually my trenches will be built like walls, so while you do have to build them section by section you can click and drag to build an extended trench. Also a trench without troopers in will still serve a purpose: it slows down enemy infantry armies. I don't like it how with your idea the Trooper fills in his hole when he leaves the trench. Think of my trench as a different kind of wall rather than a Trooper ability.

[Darth Windu]

3. It is similar to what we saw in EpV in the art and abilities, and if you had a line of Rebel infantry entrnch themselves, the art would change from single holes to one long trench - there may even be bonus' "for team trenching"

 

5. I understand the concept behind your idea, and there is some merit, though not as much as mine

If you think about it, mine is actually realistic in that the troopers would fill up their trenches after use so the enemy couldnt use them

[Admiral Vostok]

3. I can't really see how this will work in practice. Infantry is usually in a group, not a line, so if you command them all to entrench they'll form not a trench but a big pit. Alternatively you could entrench them one by one in a line, but this takes a rediculous amount of micromanagement, so much so it renders your argument against the effort to build my trenches non-sensical. For your idea to work there must be a group bonus to avoid rediculous personal holes, but I can't see how it can work. Please explain.

 

5. As far as I'm aware in reality (presumably where realism comes from) infantry don't fill up their own trenches. Trenches are usually not intended to be as temporary as you are making them.

 

6 (new point). One of the key aspects of realism relating to trench warfare that your idea lacks entirely is the ability to move around inside trenches. Infantry garrissoned in the trench can move around in the trench up to two abreast, so can reposition themselves should an attack come from a different angle. Also because of this, my trenches can be used (again as in reality) like a protective walkway: you can build a trench from your Jedi Temple to your front line so Jedi can travel down the trench with greater protection rom outside fire. These two purposes (infantry firing out AND personnell protection) are how real trenches are used, and not only does yours do a poor job of realistically presenting the first purpose but it can't perform the second purpose at all.

[clonedjedi]

I fany of you actually played SWGB 1 you would know troop wars all happen in T2 and trenches being available then would make them over powered in a rush.

[clonedjedi]

Vostoks sound more like buildings and premanent structures where darths are more like a deployment option....

[Admiral Vostok]

Originally posted by Frozted_MM's

I fany of you actually played SWGB 1 you would know troop wars all happen in T2 and trenches being available then would make them over powered in a rush.

 

Quite right, Frozted, but this trench design is for SWGB2, not SWGB1. As such trenches will be properly balanced into the mix.

[Darth Windu]

Originally posted by Frozted_MM's

Vostoks sound more like buildings and premanent structures where darths are more like a deployment option....

 

Absolutely correct. The reason mine is the way it is, is because what i want for SWGB2 is large scale, intense battles which of course means that there needs to be less base micro and more emphasis on war.

[clonedjedi]

Well lets hope its all balanced otherwise the online community won't last long.....

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu, you say you want less micro, but explain how your idea can possibly work without micro (ie formulate a response to point 3 above).

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - the reason mine would be less micro to yours is becuase you would just use hotkeys to entrench and detrench your infantry.

[clonedjedi]

I say kill the trenches off its sounds stupid really stupid rebel troops will be way overpowered for starters. Its going to be crap seeing them trench themselves in like 30 secs anyways. Drop the trench garbage and its all good