razorace Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Hey now. Let's lay off the personal insults. I was only asking a reasonable question. Anyway, I think the answer here is obvious. Just make a mini-mod that slightly slows down the flag carrier. OR make the sabers one hit kills and use Force Speed to catch up to the flag carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaledDur Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Originally posted by razorace Hey now. Let's lay off the personal insults. I was only asking a reasonable question. Anyway, I think the answer here is obvious. Just make a mini-mod that slightly slows down the flag carrier. OR make the sabers one hit kills and use Force Speed to catch up to the flag carrier. I believe our only recourse to fixing these 'problems' is to mod the game. But as I have said a while back, we need to do this in a unified way. All the good coders like razorace that exist in this community need to come together and decide to do a mod. We need to hit it hard and fast so that we're not drowning in a sea of those 'other' mods by the time we release, but it will also require some planning and forethought. I know a lot of you will want to wait and see if Raven 'fixes' these things, and I love Raven, they make really great games, but as I have said, they don't have the best track record here. Does anyone have any idea when the SDK will be released? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaledDur Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 I was playing and just observed a disturbing occurrence -- almost every server I joined had their force regen time set to 0. I think you can figure out what this means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the weiner dog! Posted September 20, 2003 Author Share Posted September 20, 2003 Originally posted by razorace Uh, why play sabers only CTF anyway? The very nature of the sport requires you have have faster runners or guns that can shoot the runners down. Umm no offense dude but here is a tip to all Lucas Forum members. Full Force Saber only is the #1 game type in competitive play and has always been. The 1v1 full force duel ladders out lasted every single 1v1 No Force duel ladder/league and had more participants than ANY other type of competition through the duration of JK2. Full Force saber only Team FFA and Full Force saber only CTF had more (and still do) active clans than any other game type. When the ladders for full weapon CTF dried up and died, the ff/so ones were still going strong and even as recent as two months ago when the game was considered totally "dead" by the masses, virtually every north American ff/so CTF clan competed in a large company sponsored competition. I'm really trying to bite my tongue and not call you guys clueless, but I really don't think you guys (Lucas Forum People) grasp just how large of a competitive gaming community there is in JK2/JA. I'm going to chalk it up to the fact that most competitive gamers don't come to sites like this but still, you guys need to realize this is not just a few disgruntled players making these posts. And Prime, You hit the nail right on the head. I've said many times this game was designed and marketed for the "casual gamer/star wars fan" and almost 0 thought about game play mechanics other than the aesthetics was put it. I made the statement before that "If you got owned in JK2 this is the game for you" and although many took offense to that it's becoming evidently clear that it was a correct assessment. The game looks great, has great new "star wars" content, but as far as complexity, challenge, strategy and skill go it's been simplified to the level of a Game Boy Advance two-button mashing hand held game. What really is making all of us mad is that all the "cool" star wars stuff could have been added *with out nerfing the game play and making it overly simplified. And as for those of you who feel the need to chime in with trite catch phrases like "learn and adapt" do me a favor and actually read what people are discussing before you try to make brownie points. No one and I mean NO ONE is saying we can't dominate the masses of players like we did in JK2. I have utterly destroyed every player I have faced on public Jedi Academy servers just like I did in JK2. The reason for this, is this game is about 80% Jedi Outcast and not to be mean, but most of you people are not nearly as good at this game or it's predecessor as you think you are. The problem and issue we have is not "winning" on public servers against average players like yourself, it's competition level play against players on the same level of skill in competitive matches becomes a total stalemate in duels and CTF because of all the nerfing. So please before you try to impress people with your catch phrases, actually pay attention to what people are debating first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaledDur Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 What he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comm539 Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 ditto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Originally posted by the weiner dog! And Prime, You hit the nail right on the head. I've said many times this game was designed and marketed for the "casual gamer/star wars fan" and almost 0 thought about game play mechanics other than the aesthetics was put it. I disagree that zero thought has been put into gameplay, whether or not there is enough is up to you guys to decide. However, it is certainly within Raven and Lucasart's right to make the game they want to make. If that game is geared towards the casual gamer who does not care if moves take "skill", then you have to live with that (but can of course express your opinions), or make some mods. Originally posted by the weiner dog! I made the statement before that "If you got owned in JK2 this is the game for you" and although many took offense to that it's becoming evidently clear that it was a correct assessment. My personal experience is that I am doing about as well in JA as I did in JO. I am not really a competative player, and I don't enter tournaments or things like that. In JO I usually finished in the top 20 percent or so on public servers (usually FF and NF duels and FFA/TFFA games). On the few servers I have been able to get on in JA, I seem to be doing about the same. Now I don't claim to be an elite player, but I don't think I am a complete newb either. I certainly didn't get ownt on a regular basis in JO, and I don't seem to be in JA. The impression (and granted I haven't been able to play a lot yet) I get is that if you sucked at JO, you are probably going to suck at JA. Originally posted by the weiner dog! The game looks great, has great new "star wars" content, but as far as complexity, challenge, strategy and skill go it's been simplified to the level of a Game Boy Advance two-button mashing hand held game. From what I have seen, button-mashing does not lead to success in the long run in JA. I think good players will still beat bad players pretty consistently in the gametypes I mentioned. The skill level required may not be up to the level you want, but I don't think the outcomes in games are completely random either. But again, even if it is and the game cateres to the average player, then it is likely because that was Raven's goal. You guys might not like the direction they took, but that is their perogative. From the little I've played I've enjoyed JA MP quite a bit (I've only played FF Duels, FF TFFA and FF FFA). I suppose I am a casual gamer, which means that when I play I try to frag other people, but I like that the ways I can do it are "Star Wars ways", if you understand what I am saying. Ultimately, I want to have fun. I play the JK seris because it is Star Wars, not because I am competative at FPSs. For a lot of casual gamers, JO MP lost a lot of appeal because the many gametypes game turned into nothing but gripkicks and pullkicks. This took a lot of the Star Wars fun out of the game. I think this is why we don't see these moves in JA, not because Raven is trying to stick it to people. This doesn't mean that we all want to pretend that we are Jedi (although many RPGers wanted exactly that ). It means that this is one of the rare MP games where there are many players who are drawn to it for reasons other than it being a FPS. So for me and my ilk, JA provides what I am looking for, and I get the impression that this is the game Rave/Lucasarts was trying to make. In this respect so far JA has been a big success, IMO. Many people might not like that or us, but I think the casual player's desires are just as valid as competative players. Originally posted by the weiner dog! What really is making all of us mad is that all the "cool" star wars stuff could have been added *with out nerfing the game play and making it overly simplified. Perhaps it could. I don't presume to know enough about what reasons there were to make the game the way it is. But it is probably safe to assume that JA was not designed to require a high skill level and a win-at-any-costs attitute. Again, that is perfectly OK for Raven to do. As they have said on many occasions, they realize not everyone is going to be happy with the directions they take. If I was a really competative player, I would not be holding my breath for a patch that turns JA into a competative players dream. It appears that that is not the game Raven/LA wanted to make. But that being said, Raven did not abandon you guys. Like they have said, they have made the game extremely customizable through cvars and moddability (I don't want to get into the viability of these things here). I would say that in the end it is probably going to be up to you guys (the competative community) to develop mods that cater to your tastes. This gives you complete freedom to get what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comm539 Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Its not a question of whether a better player would beat a poorer player, that go's naturally. It's the removal of features that's made s/o ctf unplayable. I heard most features from JO were available in JA beta, but were since removed. It's surely easy for raen to re-add these things, but make them togglable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{DHU}Screed Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Ok, I just spent the last 3-4 hours playing MP in several diffent games, such as CTF, duel, power duel, siege etc. FF/SO Duel games: there were none, they were all NF Power Duel: Owned scores of people with just grip and drain. CTF: One huge stalemate, I tried killing this guy for at least 25 mins, but to no avail was just healed and energized back to 100% health and force. So basically I accomplished diddly squat. Siege: I had some fun playing this, kudos to Raven for creating RtCW, StarWars style. There is no depth to this game, the only one that was enjoyable was Siege. Everything else was either frustrating and/or too boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jello123 Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Originally posted by the weiner dog! The problem and issue we have is not "winning" on public servers against average players like yourself, it's competition level play against players on the same level of skill in competitive matches becomes a total stalemate in duels and CTF because of all the nerfing. im still watchin theee div vs fk demo..hah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comm539 Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Duels are awesome, whoring butterfly and kata's, ridiculously weak sabers, insane saber hit blocking and no limit on saber staff and duel saber swing combos. Everything you want for a spamming fun game. If i was in a duel clan, i wouldn't be too happy right now either. Did ctf again and got bored after 56 mins, still 0-0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Originally posted by Comm539 Did ctf again and got bored after 56 mins, still 0-0. But if the flag carrier is unstoppable, shouldn't the scores be super high or something, not scoreless? Isn't that how the scoring works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpartaZx Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 no prime, because both cappers are unstoppable lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Because one team's flag has to be at its base before they can score with the other flag? I haven't played CTF in a long time, humor me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Originally posted by Prime Because one team's flag has to be at its base before they can score with the other flag? I haven't played CTF in a long time, humor me. Yeah. When both teams have the flag, no one can score because your flag has to be at your base to score. So untill one team kills the enemy fc, you, as an fc have to be constantly running and hiding so that you won't get killed. If you do get killed, it's almost certain that the other team will score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 It's obvious that the mod community will never fix this. The one key thing a mod needs to be successful is it's core game. If the base game does not constantly appeal to large audiences, especially it's competitive base, then a mod will hardly be successful. There are plenty of games that we could all theoretically have modded, but if the core game is never truly established, how are you going to mod it successfully? JO had plenty of 'mods', but since the community was so busy being divided over the base game, the mods never took off. This isn't even taking into account that many of the mods merely enhanced the poorer qualities about JO, or what I like to call Chutes and Ladders. Every game has a little Chutes and Ladders in it, by the way. What I find interesting is that S/O CTF is a defining feature of JA. It defines JA as a game. Guns are guns are guns.... with countless FPS' in existence, it has become difficult to somehow botch up the guns part of the game. However, FF Sabers Only tells you about the other half of the core game. CTF, because it has an objective that has little to do with actual personal fragging, and more to do with achieving an objective as quickly and smoothly as possible, is the perfect medium to 'tweak' or change JA for the competitive audience. As I said before, guns hardly need tweaking, it's the Force/Sabers that require some lovin'. The JA for "commoners" has already been established. Everything about moves that made the common GBA player unhappy has been 'fixed'. No kicks, grip effectiveness completely gone, sabers even weaker than wiffle bats now (it's now glowing silly putty ) , Force powers completely useless besides drain and perhaps force jump when you want to leap away, and all the special moves require force power. No offense to the Raven staff, but they've just created the perfect game for the casual gamer, which is it's main audience. Good move... smart move. I guess there is nothing wrong with this, however now the other half the community is once again crying for help. JO started out differently. The competitive half said "fix some minor bugs and we're cool" while the commoner half said "make this game simpler". Raven eventually moved towards the simpler and left the competitive half out. Perhaps this was a smart move, considering that there are more casual gamers than people looking for 'deep' games -- Gamers to be more apt. My suggestion is this: A patch for JA, since JA is so much about 'customization and catering to the masses' should simply be divided into TWO GAMEPLAY MODES (this basically the same thing that Comm has been saying). The primary flaw with JA now is that the effectiveness of tactics vary across four or five different gaming modes. This doesn't help the competitive community, or even people like myself who are looking to play a standardized, in-depth game. So, the call is for two games. The patch would do the following: One version is left as it is. Anyone who has EVER posted the following phrase: "This isn't JO, it's JA, you suck", gets a patch that fixes whatever bugs exist, but leaves the gameplay in each of the modes relatively the same. It's common knowledge by now that a vast MAJORITY of casual gamers enjoy the star wars atmosphere present in JA. It's highly doubtful that they will ever make any huge demands about changing the gameplay. More likely, they'll demand that something get removed after a year or so. The SECOND version, or the TOGGLE feature, would be the one that implements the melee system, the grip, the everything else BACK into the game. Saber damage and blocking gets returned to 1.02 JO levels. Why? Because, in general, we have NO standard for saber damage or blocking, we just know that post 1.02 wasn't working. What better way to do things than to start from the beginning again and go from there? That system was pretty good, and it's better than polling the community to simply come up with new numbers. Using the beginning as the standard, you simply start all over again. Return the saber combat back to what the single player, or even what the demo had going on. That means the special moves don't drain force... the DFA doesn't simply move in one direction, and the katas aren't entirely useless against a player that decides to flee. This would be a "relatively simple" (okay, I actually have no idea how much work that would require, probably tons of it), to do, AND you WOULD NOT anger a majority of your Casual population. The "Gamers" would not get any new bells and whistles, so it wouldn't be "unfair". The Casuals can then make threads about how they play the 'real' JA, and the Gamers can sit back, laugh a little, and continue playing their version of the game. Yes, the community would be split... yet perhaps they would still both be able to thrive. The current system will only drive the Gamers out, leading to yet another mass exodus. The other way.... perhaps would give the game a longer life span. Perhaps. but that's my suggestion. bottom line: two games, EASILY togglable. You don't have to call the toggle "Pro Mode", just call it "tournament" mode or "Nightmare" mode or "Competition" mode. In this new mode, the kick effects, saber damage, etc. would be STANDARDIZED ACROSS ALL GAME TYPES. So the competitive community could then start from scratch, EVERYONE LEARNS THE SAME TACTICS, OR SOMETHING SIMILAR, and then competition can even become interchangable. Sometimes the duelers might want to try out some CTF, etc. But if they are ALL different, it just causes a massive split. Nothing will thrive. So ends my post. <----- I am a Battledroid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Originally posted by Doctor Shaft <----- I am a Battledroid... More like Professor Longwinded. Good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelastaod Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 < completely agrees with anything that has been said about JA mp needing fixing. ive heard that the beta did have kicks, so it really shouldnt be that hard to reprogram it into a patch. please do so, as you (RAVEN) are most likely going to loose the competetive portion of the gamers who played jk2 and would like to play jk3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 kicking is dumb learn some skill noobies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Belan Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 The thing is, this game wasn't developed with the "professional" player in mind (in fact I don't think there is a game out there made with this type of player in mind, except maybe MS Flight Sim). Just casual "joes" like me, who are big Star Wars fans. You can't introduce a whole new fight system when your fan base has finally got a hold of the old one. Sure you can introduce new features, but many people get frustrated with learning new combos. A game with a high learning curve just doesn't sell. I'm 29, and If I learn a combo it's purely accidental. Hell, I just learned yesterday that you can turn one lightsaber off when using dual sabers. Raven should've done this...Raven should've done that...It's the same selfish BS I hear with every game. This is what mod makers are for to create a game that will cater to our "elite's" (and I use that term loosely) needs, while preserving the base game for the average "joes," the way it was meant to be played. Raven's job is to fix bugs, and maybe release a map or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Storm The thing is, this game wasn't developed with the "professional" player in mind (in fact I don't think there is a game out there made with this type of player in mind, except maybe MS Flight Sim). Just casual "joes" like me, who are big Star Wars fans. You can't introduce a whole new fight system when your fan base has finally got a hold of the old one. Sure you can introduce new features, but many people get frustrated with learning new combos. A game with a high learning curve just doesn't sell. I'm 29, and If I learn a combo it's purely accidental. Hell, I just learned yesterday that you can turn one lightsaber off when using dual sabers. Raven should've done this...Raven should've done that...It's the same selfish BS I hear with every game. This is what mod makers are for to create a game that will cater to our "elite's" (and I use that term loosely) needs, while preserving the base game for the average "joes," the way it was meant to be played. Raven's job is to fix bugs, and maybe release a map or two. MS Flight Sim for professional gamers? omg please... You can't even compete on that. Quake3 is a professionally played game. This game runs on the quake3 engine so it is very possible to play competitively on it. JK2 had a huge competitive community and was played competitively. Yet, the average casual gamer could have fun with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[fk]myth. Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Originally posted by [div3rse.jello] im still watchin theee div vs fk demo..hah Send me that bro, that match was smokin Anyways, I agree with what weiner dog said completely (its hard repressing laughter while reading that) The problem with JA is 1. Saber damage is down 2. High damaging moves, such as Lunge, takes force 3. Complex combos are nerfed 4. Because saber is down and high damaging moves take force, and there are no complex combos, drain whoring is so easy you could play a 5hr duel match and the winner decided by who needed to go to the bathroom first And all you people who are saying "Raven did a good job this, Raven is this and that, blah blah blah!" Open your eyes. This games main focus is holding down Attack1 and Alt attack. No combos, specials with force, how are you going to kill your opponent (providing that you want to and aren't an rpger) besides whailing your saber around like an idiot. Stop sucking up to Raven because you idolize them so much and realize that this game is only fun if you want to "Lo0k lik3 d4r7h maUL 4nD sW1nG ju0r s4b3r ar0und!!!11111oneoneone Lik3 in t3h mov13s!!111oneone". And I'm not trying to bash Raven, but this game shouldn't be called an FPS, because competition in this game (with players who know what they're doing and dont blindly walk in katas) is just not going to work. End of story. Don't say 'give it more time' because this is JO with a few more physics (like ****ty roll) some new ub3r k3wl j3d1 lik3 m0ves!!111 (kata) and nerfed combos (kick, grip kick, grip, ptk, etc). What's new to learn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Originally posted by Doctor Shaft Stuff. Well, I agree with the mod confusion of JK2. It was a huge mess. That's why I've been pushing the Open Jedi Project. We need a unifed development platform to add important/cool features to the game in addition to fixing stuff that Raven hasn't touched. However, the two modes idea for JKA isn't going to happen. Expecting Raven to cater to the "competitive" gamers (especially when they are extremely elitist and will never stop whining) isn't going to happen. Speaking of which, you guys really gotta lay off the elitism. Noone can have a intelligent discussion with you (or agree with you) if you start slamming/labelling them the second they don't 100% agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Precisely. I'm quite impressed that so far, we've only had about three useless comments in this thread, most of which consisted of "learn s0m3 sk111z0rz". That's good, it's easily ignored. However, I think it also points back to my suggestion. Next patch should = Two different styles of game. One for the latest "you suxx0r for k111l1ng m3 t00 f4st!! and one for the people who accept kicking, pulling, throwing, and sabers that actually keep a player from simply healing the damage away. We need one where the casual players, most of whom have huge egos that they can hardly supress, can continue playing the original version and stay content, and another where everyone else can enjoy their competitive play once again. It's asking a lot, but the community needs a STANDARD from Raven. The community cannot fix it or establish it, it's been tried, tested, and proven FALSE. I think the fate of JA as a game that competitors will enjoy is in the total hands of Raven at this moment (not to put any unwanted, unneccessary pressure on them ). what they decided to do, or better, what Lucasarts even decides to LET Raven do will determine if this game will also simply die a quick 1 year death of pain. Here's beggin' to Raven for some help. Give the competitors a seperate game, if possible and tolerable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatred01 Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Originally posted by Comm539 Did ctf again and got bored after 56 mins, still 0-0. Thats interesting, I just did a CTF with 16 people and both games ended in decent amount of time...5/4 and 5/2. I dont see how kick would help you stop anyone at all if you are chasing them...perhaps its about time you people stop crying and try new tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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