The Return of Kick (among other things)

[Pyro]

definitely not swift... swift can say like 2 things:

 

f u nib

die plz

[Mordred]

Originally posted by [div3rse.syn]

One more thing - Mordred, if by some chance you're actually a JKO player that could kick my ass, I apologize. However, the only players I know that could are in my clan, or in FK, and considering I've been playing these last few months and unless you're in a clan and not mentioning it, you haven't. Therefore, you didn't put the time in. K thx.

 

Well no prob.

 

not being a clan does not mean u dont put time into the game.

and the amount of time u play does not always make u better than some one who has not played as much (unless its a RPG)

 

But ethier way im not saying i would beat u, your u would beat me.

 

i was just makign the point of u cant say u are better then soemone else of u have no idea whop they are or if u have never played against them.

 

but thats the attitude of a lot of clan players, that they will beat them because they in a clan. (which u have kind of helped to prove)

[Spider AL]

Answer my question AL.

 

Do you have the Game?

 

You don't live in North America, so I'm going to guess no (I admit I could be wrong though but most euro's including the ones in our clan say it's not out over there).

 

Am I correct?

Pardon me while I stop laughing at this abortive attempt at a riposte. The game was released in the UK days ago, and I got it as early as any man in England. I'm glad you admit you could be wrong. You are, in more than this. Go to gameplay.com, the main UK mailorder retailer to check it.

 

Please, oh yee of great wisdom, bring the mighty [FW] clan to the [div3rse] or FK server and teach us.

 

You know as well as I do you and your clan would be made fools of in a match, so you sit here and chime in on things you know nothing about and try to dissect posts bit by bit to belittle people but all the while not having to actually ever be in a situation where you have to back up your arrogance.

Perhaps you're incapable of grasping the rather obvious fact that the game mode you love so much is, quite frankly, poo. But that aside, I haven't entered into the debate over the game mechanics of NG CTF at all. You're just not capable of reading carefully enough, apparently.

 

I like the way you accuse ME of arrogance in a post that boils down to "MYCLAN COU<D BEET UR CLAN SO STFU NOOB AH AHAH!!11"

 

As I stated before, full force saber only was (bold letters here AL, pay attention) the most popular competitive game type in the history of Jedi Outcast in the States, much more so than any other including any gun based games.

Wow, it was the most popular JO gametype in America. I feel so humbled.

 

Plenty of silly people have spitting contests you know, that doesn't make spitting a great uberfun pastime of much skill. And you typed the operative words yourself: Jedi Outcast. This is Jedi Academy. Different game, different gametype, different dynamic. So NG CTF is crap in JA. So what tbh?

[Doctor Shaft]

If S/O CTF Full Force is poo... then I guess you wouldn't or shouldn't care if a patch were ever to be released that allowed people to unlock kicks in that gametype.

 

I mean... it is poo after all, and you wouldn't bother arguing with people about how they want to change said poo.

 

If they want one game type fixed, especially one that you seem to have an aversion to, then I guess you shouldn't care. But I guess it's important that we are informed over and over that you don't like groups of people begging Raven for changes.

 

Regardless, it's great that you're revealing the truth of everyone's motives. Yes, we're all arrogant, know it all whiners who want to change the game to pleasure ourselves, or a small group at least. You've been repeating yourself, or spending more time defending yourself from flames than actually saying something new. Over and over. FF CTF S/O is poo, like you said. That should end your discussion and interest in these threads. Few people are requesting Raven to add kick to FFA, or TFFA. Most people just want to be able to unlock kick for S/O FF CTF, or any other game type they are interested in. That's all. Arrogant, self-interested bastards indeed. I love it.

 

What's more, most people just want a toggle option for kick. Besides your also very publicly known distaste for forum-driven patches and people demanding that a company serve them, what other concerns do you have about people asking Raven to possible give them a 'key' to unlocking certain maneuvers that were present in JO? A majority of people wouldn't have to play with them -- YOU wouldn't have to play with them -- and both sides of the 'kick/no kick' argument would still be pleased.

[Spider AL]

If S/O CTF Full Force is poo... then I guess you wouldn't or shouldn't care if a patch were ever to be released that allowed people to unlock kicks in that gametype.

Still don't get it eh. I don't want any patches at all, yet. Patches this soon can only damage the game in the long term.

 

A majority of people wouldn't have to play with them -- YOU wouldn't have to play with them -- and both sides of the 'kick/no kick' argument would still be pleased.

Don't be naive. If Raven pays attention to THIS group, they have to pay attention to other groups. 1.03 was caused by similar circumstances, in case you've forgotten.

 

You've been repeating yourself, or spending more time defending yourself from flames than actually saying something new. Over and over.

I'm glad you've noticed that the group you're defending does little but flame those who point out the flaw in their hasty and selfish "If I don't like it, patch it" attitude.

 

As for repeating myself, no. I've been trying very hard to make people like yourself understand exactly what the problem is with premature patching. I've worded each statement and argument in various ways at various times in an obviously vain attempt to get it through your heads.

[Doctor Shaft]

I guess I still don't get it.

 

My question still stands though. If the 'patch' that comes prematurely, or whenever, simply allowed people to toggle the kick, etc, what would be so wrong? This community won't be unified anyway, even if Raven does decide to patch it the way you've always said they should have.

 

I know you've posted before saying that the 1.03 patch, etc., was premature, and that Raven should have waited it out or just fixed a bug or two. I feel that regardless of smart patching, this community is still going to continue to whine and complain about the same things over and over again. I can't forsee any unity at all. At some point, people are going to want kick back.

 

I don't see anything wrong in just letting people have a toggle. They get it, other people refrain from it, that would be the end of it. We already have the cvars to change saber damage, and apparently some servers have Force Regen set high. I wasn't fully aware that you could even toggle it.

 

If there's so little standardization there, I don't see what's wrong with giving the public a little more customization-chaos.

[Spider AL]

I guess I still don't get it.

You're right.

 

I'm sure you believe that having kick back is important for some reason. I know you genuinely feel that way.

 

Remember this: Those that thought the repeater and the flechette were imbalanced in the last game genuinely believed that their idea would improve the game.

 

Those that believed drain was too powerful and/or heal was too powerful in the last game, genuinely believed that their idea would improve the game.

 

Belief is not the issue. MERIT of an idea is not the issue. The issue is time. A patch, should not change gameplay, until the gameplay is TRULY understood. That takes months. Gameplay is like an ecosystem. The slightest change can affect the game hugely.

 

Who could have foreseen the effect of nerfing the flechette: A sharp upcurve in camping. The people who requested the alteration thought that nerfing one or two guns would make sabres more desirable. All it did was make gunners more bitter, and more territorial. No less successful though.

 

You say that a toggleable kick would not affect anyone but NG CTFers. How can you be sure? Give server admins a variable, and half of them will activate it, and half will disable it. You said as much yourself. Regardless of what server or gametype they're running. That splits the community straight away.

 

You want unity? Unity is a pipedream. There are merely successive levels of fragmentation. The more patches and mods a game has, the more fragmented its community becomes.

 

Even if your toggle had NO effect whatsoever, as you claim, Raven wouldn't just listen to THIS thread, to THIS group. If they made a patch to pander to premature whiners, they'd listen to ALL of them. There have been some pretty bad ideas so far, and Raven can't always distinguish between them to be honest.

 

Premature patching is the worst idea of all, for reasons previously established.

[Comm539]

Get over yourself AL.

Take time to read our request. We want the kick (thats already in the game) to be unlocked with a toggle\ble command. You don't even play s/o ctf. It won't affect your gamemode, but will resolve all the problems with ours. JA ctf has been tried and you admit yourself "its poo". JO ctf worked fine, the reason being there were ways to halt an fc who didn't want to stop. These methods worked, so its not some trial and error patch: this gameplay worked in JO and will work in JA.

 

Post something constructive, like a reason why kick shouldn't be exclusively reintroduced to s/o ctf along with an alternative way to stop a running fc. Your pointless replies of 'this is a different game' are ridiculous.

 

Feel free to add to my list of new features:

 

New gun

Saber staff (already in JO)

Duel Sabers

Kata

Roll stab

Butterfly

 

Uhm, all the rest is from JO.

 

 

Mordred: You think competetive play is a minority. If saber collision detetction and combo limits on staff and duel sabers aren't in place, competetive dueling will die too (nf and ff). Ctf dies. Who do you think runs all the servers? 80% of servers are clan servers. The competetive community dies, 80% servers dissapear. Around 10% of servers are run by server companies to attract customers (from clans). Clans die, companies don't bother with free servers. Your left with 10% of servers trying to pull hits on their website.

I disagree that competetive gameplay is a minority, but even if it were so, 'casual' gamers need the competetive community more than you realise.

[Spider AL]

New gun

Saber staff (already in JO)

Duel Sabers

Kata

Roll stab

Butterfly

Pfft.

 

Updated engine

Updated graphics engine

New weapons (weapons aren't defined by what they look like, but what they do.)

New effects of those weapons

New dynamic in MP due to differences in variables, netcode and weaponry.

 

And last but not least, you don't run JA using JO's executable. YOUR assertions that this is merely a mod are both laughable from a technical AND actual standpoint.

 

Post something constructive, like a reason why kick shouldn't be exclusively reintroduced to s/o ctf

Done and done. It's hardly my fault if you don't read properly.

[Comm539]

Its the same engine with updates, therefore does not affect gameplay.

 

The weapons (incl. saber) have been nurfed. Saber timing is pointless, you just need to spam duel sabers while someone hacks down with red (which has a 3 hit combo) and duel sabers wins. Theres no intricity to this game, just running around with a finger on attack.

The intricity has been removed.

 

You said 'JA s/o ctf is poo'

 

Yes. There are NO NEW METHODS TO STOP SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T WANT TO BE STOPPED.

A few ways have been suggested, but none are workable. Feel free to add to the ways.

Reenable kick, a method that allowed ctf to worked fine. It isn't trial and error. It worked in JO and therefore will work in JA.

 

And judging from how many people don't want kick in other gametypes, the admins won't reenable kick on non-ctf servers.

[Mordred]

Originally posted by Comm539

Mordred: You think competetive play is a minority.

 

if u can find one quote of me saying that i would be greatly suprised.

 

im all for competetive gaming, i have stated alot of times i dont want to see JA turn into Chat rooms like JO did.

 

im not all that against the kick in CTF only ethier.

 

but over all the major problem in all modes of the fact that u can heal/drain and keep the fight going way to long, and sabers dont do enough damage to combat the heals. but kick is not the way to sort that.

 

as for CTF yes stopping the FC is a problem, and yes somthing needs to be done.

 

now im not a staff user but whats the point in them having a kick insted of saber throw (yes i know u can throw it with one blade turned off), if ever one else has a kick ?

 

if kick does go back in, it should be CTF only, the side kick only and do no damage just knockdown, that way atlast the staff kick still has a point to it

[Spider AL]

Its the same engine with updates, therefore does not affect gameplay.

Rubbish! Gameplay is defined by motion, moves and weaponry. These are different, therefore gameplay is different. And by your flimsy rationale every game based on the Quake engine is a mod of Quake.

 

The weapons (incl. saber) have been nurfed. Saber timing is pointless, you just need to spam duel sabers while someone hacks down with red (which has a 3 hit combo) and duel sabers wins. Theres no intricity to this game, just running around with a finger on attack.

I've found a few techniques to counter dual sabres so far. I recall that many people said the same thing about JO when it came out too... they were similarly wrong.

 

You said 'JA s/o ctf is poo'

 

Yes. There are NO NEW METHODS TO STOP SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T WANT TO BE STOPPED.

Well, it was poo in JO too. But it's unworkable in JA. So what? That doesn't mean a premature and ill-conceived patch should be extruded from Raven's offices.

 

And judging from how many people don't want kick in other gametypes, the admins won't reenable kick on non-ctf servers.

Oh please. These forums don't reflect the world of game network servers, and many people who simply don't care about this topic, but would like kick re-enabled in FFA and duel (a very negative idea) haven't posted here yet. Your idea's merit is irrelevant. The method of the realisation of your idea is VERY relevant, and could be very damaging: a patch.

[Comm539]

k sorry, must be someone else.

But all we're asking for is kick to be toggleable, so it is only readded to s/o ctf.

 

There's also the argument 'kick shouldn't be the only way to kill'.

Its not, we don't have kick there to just kill. Sure you can get kicked off a platform, but kick is there to stop a runner.

 

Imagine you have the flag. You don't want to get killed at ANY cost, so you run away from everyone. You also have a healer and an energizer, so you can run infinitely.

Ptk, kick, pk, rage dfa, grip kick, were ways to stop the fc so you can finish him off with your saber. The problem we have is that there are no ways to stop the fc in order to kill him. The kick in ctf isn't there as a killer, its there as a means to stop the fc. Since theres no new ways to stop someone in JA, no matter how many new saber swings and strategies you learn, they're all pointless if you can't stop the fc.

 

 

Also adding, by your own admitance:

 

These forums don't reflect the world of game network servers, and many people who simply don't care about this topic, but would like kick re-enabled in FFA and duel

 

Many people eh? Then whats the problem?! If so many agree to reenable kick, why should you stand in their way? If its so popular, as you so helpfully agreed, whats the problem in having a toggleable patch to reenable kicks? All the "Many" (as you said)people who want kicks can have them and those who don't, don't have them. You can just go to a server with no kicks. Sorted.

[Spider AL]

But all we're asking for is kick to be toggleable, so it is only readded to s/o ctf.

Once again for the back rows: If kick is a variable, it could well be reactivated on some servers running different gametypes, fragmenting the other gametype communities. It doesn't matter how little, the fact is that you're risking damaging the whole community to try to ressurect a currently dead game mode which only existed in one game, the previous game. The fact is that you don't care about those other gametypes, all you care about is your own little mode, your own little clique and your own little opinion of how the game could be "improved" even though you've played it for less than a month. It's laughable.

[Comm539]

many people who simply don't care about this topic, but would like kick re-enabled in FFA and duel

 

Please save it. You admit many people want kick, so why should you stand in their way? If a toggleabl;e patch is released, aswell as fixing ctf, it'll aloow the community to finally decide for themselves...to kick or not to kick. I'm sure there'll be a mixture.

 

Remember, if you don't like it, take your own advice and "Move on and play another gametype"

 

Your argument is hipocritical and flawed.

[Mordred]

Well yeah if they put in a no damage side kick back into CTF as a means to stop a FC and can not be put into any other modes

 

i will be happy.

 

but i cant see it happening, if it goes in one modes its bound sure to go in the others

[Comm539]

All this 'risking damage' crap. You survived with kicks throughout JO, why couldn't you survive now?

 

And why would kicks 'just be reenabled?' If people are so against kicks, they won't turn them on. If they turn them on, then its because people want to kick again. Why should you decide fopr everyone? A toggleable patch will let the community decide for itself, through what it wants.

[Spider AL]

Please save it. You admit many people want kick, so why should you stand in their way?

Many fools wanted to remove all guns from JO entirely, or nerf them all.

 

Doesn't make them right. Doesn't mean I shouldn't "stand in their way".

 

Remember, if you don't like it, take your own advice and "Move on and play another gametype"

Idiotic. YOU'RE the one who wants to change things. That means YOU bear the burden of proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that those things NEED to be changed. BUGS need to be fixed, gameplay is not fixable, it merely exists. And having played the game for less than a month, nobody here is qualified to declare that their method of "improving" gameplay won't adversely affect the rest of the community. Premature patching ALWAYS has negative results. Look at the history for once.

[Comm539]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Many fools wanted to remove all guns from JO entirely, or nerf them all.

 

Doesn't make them right. Doesn't mean I shouldn't "stand in their way".

 

 

By your own agrugment, I could say Many fools wanted to remove kicks from JO, or nerf them. Doesn't make it right.

 

Again, a hippocritical argument. You say patching will have adverse affects. Well removing kicks has had adverse affects. JO ctf was working with kicks, so if we can restore whats been nurfed, we can restore the gameplay. This isn't nurfing, its fixing whats been nurfed.

[Mordred]

that is to a large part true, but just because the server host wants kick, does not mean that other do, now yes u would just have to find another servers, but then finding a server with a good ping with/witout kick, which ever u want maybe come a problem, and they it turns into JO

 

like with tins of servers running adim mods and so one all with different setting and stupid rules. and u get sick and tired of try to find a good server thats not running all this crap, or running the exact crap u want and u just give up.

 

now ok with just the kick toggle should not be a problem really, but lots of other want other aspects changable aswell.

 

people should learn to leave thing alone unless they are truely broke.

 

and i will admit S/O CTF is broke and needs sorting. but the others dont really, apart from the heals need toning down or sabers beefing up, or a little of both would be best. (so u dont notice a big nerf in heals or a huge jump in saber damage, but still sorts the problem)

[Th4t Guy]

That means YOU bear the burden of proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that those things NEED to be changed.

 

Uh...dont 60 min games that end up being 0-0 prove that something needs to be changed. Nobody wants to play to a stalemate of that proportion. And the only reason why it ended was because the fc left giving the other team a chance to score. I think that right there is proof that it needs to be changed.

[Spider AL]

By your own agrugment, I could say Many fools wanted to remove kicks from JO, or nerf them.

Idiotic again, this isn't JO. It's the sequel to JO. It's JA. It's a separate game, something I know you have trouble understanding. Quake 2 had no axe. Quake 2 players didn't go around screaming "THEY NERFED OUR AXE!!11". It was a different game and changes are to be expected... more, they're to be HOPED for in new games. If FFA guns in JA wasn't as good as in JO, I'd be off playing FFA guns in JO now, I wouldn't be whining about the fact on here!

 

And don't call me a hippo.

[Comm539]

This is JO with nurfing. Nothing has been added but a few new saber swings and styles. All of the ways to stop an fc have been removed.

No matter what strategies you learn, there's no ways to stop and fc to finish him with your saber. In essence, fc's are now invincible. This problem can be solved be re-adding kicks (that did and will still stop an fc) so you can finish him with whatever new strategies you like. Kicking isn't just a weapon, its necesarry to stop the fc, to stop his escape, otherwise a stalemate occurs. The fact is, the code is so amazingly different [/sarcasm] that the kicks are still in the code. We just want to unlock them.

But if kicks aren't necessary:

 

Enlighten us with ways to stop an fc.

[Spider AL]

This is JO with nurfing.

It's JA, it's different, get used to it. No amount of stubborn blindness will change that. Just because JA is different to JO, doesn't mean it should be patched to make it exactly like JO.

[Comm539]

haha. Look at the code. Its JO with nurfing.

 

You still didn't answer the question:

 

How can you stop an fc who doesn't want to stop?