Solo Saber Nerfed Thread

[Mephisto]

I'm talking about NF, 1v1 duels in my previous post. In FFA, the single saber stands as much chance as the other sabers. Why? Most people have not learnt to handle the new saber styles well and use the new moves e.g katas, butterfly atk, twirling saber thingie. Those are easy to counter in FFA.

[BloodRiot]

Well Mephisto.. I wasn't talking about your post specifically.. I was reffering to the whole thread in general.

 

But I gotta say that in the Duel challenges I plaied in that same FFA I battles dual sabers as well as staffs and singles... i bought the farm on some and add a notch on my saber in another... you know those duels disable force dont you? well to be honest.. my opinion stands as is. I have also played on duel servers... to be honest ever sicne this thread started I started playing single saber like no-ones business... If I thought you were right... I would say so. But Im afraid i cannot... but ironically i thank you... I found large ammounts of fun attached to the single saber... to be honest... it's my favorite now...go figure.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by dyehead

Mephisto said he can have his own opinions that he wants others to see, so...

 

We want Raven to see our opinions too.

 

90% of the people are screaming for a patch, I think the 10% minority will be overruled.

 

I've been avoiding this thread (as far as posting is concerned) lest I be accused of flamebaiting. But I cannot let this statement pass.

 

First of all, I'd like to commend you for wanting to get a consensus for what possibly needs fixing. This is a great first step.

 

Second, I'd like to take issue with the 90% people want a patch; therefore patch! Considering that the length of time that ANYONE has had this game is less than two weeks, NO ONE has had time to do enough regression analysis to have any proof that there are huge gameplay issues enough to require a patch. I have seen a lot of anecdotal evidence suggesting that parts of the game are broken. However, most of the people spouting off anecdotal evidence are also posting utter rubbish (including the so-called 133+ players) which is enough of a counterpoint to the post to almost (or completely) invalidate the post.

 

Dyehead, I would like to see this thread continue on a quest to get a consensus as to what people think may need fixing from a gameplay balance standpoint. However, I would agree with Spider Al (I know you have an issue with him/her but s/he's right on this point) that any request for a PATCH should be delayed until we all get said consensus correct.

 

That's my 0.02 USD for the moment.

[archer9234]

i see it this way...raven makes a patch to fix the anoying crash bugs and slow downs. they do not answer the ppl who want kick,no force cost, or moving while using the special moves. ppl like Hex will make x-mod 2 and JA will be fragmented no matter what. The ppl who want kick and or other things put back the way JK 2 had it, might as well stop complaing cause ppl like al (after reading 12 pages of post about kick) will not stop complaing that toggling kick is very bad. Just be patient and wait for x-mod2 and will run our servers the way we want and the ppl like al run there servers the way they want. BTW: al if u get anoyed at this i dont care go ahead your not getting me mad of this. i will not respond to you. to me your just some guy out of 4 billion online players.

[Spider AL]

what is this 'we' bullcrap?

Do be more of an adult. It's been proven time and time again that even though most people with my point of view haven't posted on these forums since making Raven fix the problems people like you created in 1.03, we exist. Your constant claims that you're in a total majority are as immature as your claims that I'm the only one who disagrees with the selfish desire that the game be instantly changed to match JO.

 

We say no to premature patching! No patching barely a week after release, Raven!

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Spider AL

We say no to premature patching! No patching barely a week after release, Raven!

 

It's "we" because there are more than one of us. By definition, "we" means more than one.

[Emon]

I must agree with Spider AL. Premature patches are bad. They should listen to the general public, and then playtest it themselves and use their own judgement, because quite frankly, anyone at Raven is far more competant than half the people I find on here.

 

Well, actually, they could patch technical issues now, such as the problems with dynamic glow on ATI cards. But gameplay prematurely is bad.

[archer9234]

would it matter if we had waited a week or 2 months. at any point you ppl who hated kick would still yell at use. becuase in your eyes kick is a sin in JK II and JA. i wonder how ppl would of been if things were reversed. if kick was in JA you ppl that hated it would of probaly demanded it removed. Also are you forgeting there is 2 new ways of getting up by a knock down 1. rolling left or right 2. kicking up or back. and the default sprint back up fast. those count as counter attacks for kick. hmm when i played 1.03 for jk2 the only thing i saw unbalanced was the blue stance pivit one kill thing...but that was when i was a dueler and i really hated that. i didnt find the gun dmg bad or saber dmg. i hope in some way we will be able to compromise over this issue. because this is just causing ppl to get angery and very pissed off.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by archer9234

would it matter if we had waited a week or 2 months. at any point you ppl who hated kick would still yell at use. becuase in your eyes kick is a sin in JK II and JA.

 

If you'd read the majority of posts that Spider Al, others, and I have been writing, you'd note that none of us has an issue with kick or the lack thereof in the game.

 

The issue is, and has always been, don't patch prematurely! If Raven listens to the kick-whores, then they're going to ALSO listen to the sabre-whores, and the gun-whores, etc. No one group should be given preferential treatment.

[dyehead]

This thread has nothing to do with kick, it was a topic regarding saber damage, and what we'd like looked into when they are planning their patch.

 

There NEEDS to be a patch to fix the server issues (not showing up in master list) So I'm sure that they'll throw in some other stuff with that patch, so we need to get the information out about what we see wrong with game play as fast as we can.

 

I played a bunch of NF duels yesterday, and I noticed this:

 

When I swing my saber against the dual sabers or light staff, if they do a quick swing while I'm in the middle of mine, they totally deflect my blow.

I did an overhead red slash (not dfa) while someone was going into a roll, he did not hit me with it, but my saber just bounced and went back to default position, my slash incomplete and doing no damage. This happens a lot with different types of slashes, but I only have this problem (non-roll I mean) with the dual sabers and the light staff. In watching the duels I saw yesterday, the servers cycled through about 25 people, and 3 out of those 25 used single sabers.

 

Novelty? Or did the coders of the dual sabers and light staff consider them their *babies* and make them a little more powerful...

 

I design areas and items for an online role-playing game. Before I implememnt my work, I have to check to see if it's balanced with the rest of the game. My items can't be too powerful, or they are denied. If I make something that's better than what's currently there, then everyone is going to want to use it, and there will be complaints from the people that liked the previous item, hence, I can only make things up to and equal to what is currently in existance. I do not feel that all of the sabers are equal, or balanced.

 

That is/was the point of this thread, to point out to Raven the flaws that we see in saber combat with single sabers.

 

Spider Al and a couple others say NO to premature patching! The other 20 people who've posted problems re: saber damage in this thread say please incorporate saber fixes with your server patch!

[archer9234]

oh well im not going to post about this anymore.

[Spider AL]

There NEEDS to be a patch to fix the server issues (not showing up in master list) So I'm sure that they'll throw in some other stuff with that patch, so we need to get the information out about what we see wrong with game play as fast as we can.

Don't say such foolish things. It's less than a week from release, you cannot POSSIBLY claim to know so much about JA that you have a license to tell Raven and everyone else who will ever play the game how you think the gameplay should evolve. Stow the arrogance, fish out the common sense. The things you think are irrepairable gameplay flaws today will fade into obscurity when the REALLY powerful moves become common online in about two months time.

 

Three months after JO was released, we were inventing and discovering new sabre moves and tactics that made all earlier moves OBSOLETE! You are immensely misguided if you consider yourself omniscient in terms of JA, or that your roleplaying game experience makes you qualified to alter the natural evolutionary process of JA.

 

We, the people who are opposed to premature patching who have posted in this thread AND all the others, say to Raven: Wait a good long time before altering the gameplay to pander to self-interested parties!

[boinga1]

[puts on flame-retardant suit]

 

 

Well, my opinion is simply this: no patch should be released or even worked on about within a month of the game's release UNLESS it is desgined to fix BUGS- crashes, lockups, and the like. GAMEPLAY patches should be thought about AT LEAST a month after game release.

 

After one week of playing, you cannot say that you know that JA is messed up, you cannot say that no new startegies will be formed, you cannot claim to know everything about JA!

 

So yes, add me to the (growing) list of those whose support Al.

[AxVegetA]

Originally posted by boinga1

[puts on flame-retardant suit]

 

 

Well, my opinion is simply this: no patch should be released or even worked on about within a month of the game's release UNLESS it is desgined to fix BUGS- crashes, lockups, and the like. GAMEPLAY patches should be thought about AT LEAST a month after game release.

 

After one week of playing, you cannot say that you know that JA is messed up, you cannot say that no new startegies will be formed, you cannot claim to know everything about JA!

 

So yes, add me to the (growing) list of those whose support Al.

 

I agree.

[cheeto101]

[Puts on Preachers Outfit]

 

AMMMEEENNN Brother Al, Preach it, Preach it good Brotha.

 

Honestly, i seriously enjoy JA gameplay right now. The only quibble i have is the stupid force penatly for stabbing, lunging and dfa ing. (i also think they need to fix the yellow jump slash, sooo hard to hit people) I dont see much sense in those, but ah well, i deal with it and i get over it, its still a friggin awesome game.

[FK | unnamed]

If it were an entirely new game, and not one built off of Jedi Outcast I would agree.

 

But this is not an entirely new game.

 

Disagree?

 

Let's look at the facts:

 

Force power changes between Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy:

 

-No powers added.

 

-No powers removed.

 

-Only two changes were made to the existing powers.

 

*A line of sight restriction on grip was made.

 

*The rage + speed bonus was removed.

 

 

Sabers:

 

-Single saber stance is a direct clone of the Jedi Outcast saber system.

 

-Same button presses result in the exact same swings that were in Jedi Outcast (one minor timing tweak on the DFA, see below).

 

The only changes made were:

 

*The heavy DFA now has a forward+jump+attack activation key press that is the same as the yellow DFA.

 

*The Yellow DFA locks yaw movement.

 

*The specials (DFA especially) do much lower damage than they did in Outcast.

 

*A roll + stab move was added.

 

*A Kata move was added.

 

The two new stances (double and staff)

 

-You get the same basic "special/Kata for each stance" system that single saber users have.

 

-When in "secondary" mode, the double sabers are the same as the single saber light stance from Jedi Outcast without being able to lunge.

 

-When in "secondary" mode the staff is the same as the medium stance from Jedi Outcast without the "yellow DFA" being available.

 

 

So in review:

 

 

I have mastered every aspect of the Force powers since they are identical; no new time spent "learning them" is needed.

 

I know every swing and possible combination of swings with the single saber.

 

The secondary modes of the new stances are identical to the light/medium stance of the single saber, so no time "learning" them is needed.

 

 

What new content I must learn then?

 

Here it is:

 

I need to learn the basic swings for the two new stances (left + attack, back +right + attack, etc.), but *only for the primary modes since the secondary modes are identical to the single saber stances in the previous game.

 

 

 

alt attack+primary attack will make me do a Kata.

 

 

 

forward+duck+primary attack makes me do a rolling stab.

 

 

 

when I do a DFA now I have to remember to press forward+attack+jump at the same time as opposed to timing it like I did in Outcast.

 

 

 

When I do a yellow DFA I'm not going to be able to spin my mouse to aim my shot.

 

 

When I do a "basic" special I'm going to be charged 25 force points.

 

When I do a "Kata" I'm going to be charged 50 force points.

 

 

My DFA is only going to do about 50 damage if it lands head on as opposed to the 100 ish it did before.

 

 

when I use grip the only way for me to prevent my "gripped" opponent from breaking the hold is to rapidly shake my mouse up/down/all around, (but even then it's fairly easy to break for them) due to the line of sight restriction.

 

 

Guys, it may take you 7 months to learn that ^ but it took me about 7 minutes.

 

Seriously, you say "give it time" but I have to ask, what is there to learn?

 

Same powers as before.

 

Same single saber as before.

 

Two new stances have "secondary modes" that are the same as the single saber from Outcast.

 

 

Other than the universal "primary+secondary attack" command that results in a Kata and the "duck + primary attack" that results in a roll stab, what new "super moves" are there?

 

Nadda.

 

 

What new power combos are there?

 

Nadda, because nothing with the force powers has changed other than a nerf to grip and the slow down of rage+speed.

 

 

So all I have to learn is a few basic swings and two universal special move commands?

 

Yep.

 

 

Look I understand there may be a lot for some of you people to learn because you were not very experienced in the previous game, but for those of us who were, it takes about 5-10 minutes to learn the (very limited) new content.

 

But really, do people need 6 months of game play to grasp “holy **** I get charged 25 force for a DFA now”?

 

I don’t think so.

 

Premature patches are a bad idea for new games but when 85% of the game content has been around and play tested for year and a half, then *directly ported over with no changes other than a few restrictions on a couple of moves, I think it’s safe to say we do have a pretty good understanding of how things work..

[boinga1]

Look...you failed to list everything that was changed. The fact is that ENOUGH of this game has been changed that all your JO startegies WILL NOT work the way they did in JO. Likewise, NOT all the startegies for JA have been discovered. Please don't tell me that pull/kicking and pull/throwing werer discovered in the first two weeks of playiung Outcast; they weren't. Enough of the game is different that your startegt needs to change-if you don't change, you will never really "master" JA.

[Jello123]

if he failed to list everything

 

then you can go ahead and take over and point out his oh so stupid errors

[FK | unnamed]

Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]

if he failed to list everything

 

then you can go ahead and take over and point out his oh so stupid errors

 

oh please do.

 

[buzzblade]

Originally posted by boinga1

[puts on flame-retardant suit]

 

Well, my opinion is simply this: no patch should be released or even worked on about within a month of the game's release UNLESS it is desgined to fix BUGS- crashes, lockups, and the like. GAMEPLAY patches should be thought about AT LEAST a month after game release.

 

After one week of playing, you cannot say that you know that JA is messed up, you cannot say that no new startegies will be formed, you cannot claim to know everything about JA!

 

So yes, add me to the (growing) list of those whose support Al.

 

Totally agree.

 

BTW, was the gameplay in JO ever fixed [they rushed out patches on that if I remember correctly]? I stopped playing that online during the 'arse-fighting' phase of patch development - somehow the sight of a load of Jedi running around backwards with their butts in the air just didn't seem very 'Star Wars'....

[Spider AL]

Well I can name one change at least you failed to list. Begins with "D". I'll let you remember what else you've failed to list... But you've already listed quite a few key changes yourself, Unnamed. Just because you can't see how the game dynamic is subtly different in key areas and greatly different in others, is not anyone's fault but your own.

 

And don't forget, rate of attacks, range of attacks, amounts of damage, all have been altered. That's enough to make them new. It's all code. Because animations are similar, doesn't mean it won't all fit together in a completely different dynamic.

 

You yourselves have admitted that key changes in the game make certain strategies learned in JO useless. So there's no debate, really.

 

I've been playing JA the same amount of time as any of you. I was a champion JO player and a champion JK player before it. I made 38,000 kills in JO in the six months I played it solidly. I had a 97% victory percentage, COUNTING the matches I joined halfway through as losses. I invented one-hit kills that NOBODY but me ever used to my knowledge, and I don't consider MYSELF qualified to decide on gameplay changes yet, I SURE as heck don't consider YOU qualified, and god, why do you consider YOURSELVES qualified? It's beyond me. Less than a month after release and you're all screaming "I KNO ALL THERE IS TO KNO!!!111" No offence, but I consider that kind of sad. It gives serious players a bad name.

 

Look I understand there may be a lot for some of you people to learn because you were not very experienced in the previous game,

Heh heee heee! Taste the ego. That's best ignored to be honest.

 

Dyehead, you can already see that we're coming out of the woodwork... We, as a COLLECTIVE, say:

 

Raven, please, no pandering to demands for premature patching!

[dyehead]

*yawn* so 5 people say don't patch now..

 

Read what I said, this thread is about discussing the imbalance of single sabers compared to the dual sabers and the light staff.

 

READ, Al, READ.

 

There is a BUG and an ISSUE with SERVERS not DISPLAYING properly in the MASTER LIST.

 

Raven WILL release a patch to fix that. I am saying look into the other gripes so that they can release a GOOD and not PARTIAL patch.

 

gg.

 

Spider Al and 4 or 5 others don't trust RAVEN to make a GOOD patch! The rest of us DO!

[Spider AL]

Spider Al and 4 or 5 others don't trust RAVEN to make a GOOD patch! The rest of us DO!

FEEL the immaturity.

 

You've been discussing gameplay alterations and premature patching IN THIS, your OWN thread. So don't pretend it's not about gameplay alterations, and premature patching. And try to be more adult, please.

[FK | unnamed]

Al because you got 897809709798798709709780978009098 kills on a kill tracker quite frankly, means jack **** in the world of competitive play.

 

 

Now you state you were a "champion" JO player, but I have to ask what you define as a champion?

 

 

I base my "skill" on the time I spent in various gaming North American gaming leagues like OGL and TWL and I also base it on my matches played against the people who sat at the top of the U.K. and German gaming leagues and ladders.

 

When I say the number of people in Jedi Outcast who can and did totally "own me" could be counted on one hand and have about 3 fingers left over, I'm basing it on my performance against the "crème de la crème" of competition level players on a global scale.

 

 

 

It’s not about how many people you beat Al, it’s about who you beat.

 

 

But back on topic, you say pre mature matches are bad.

 

I agree.

 

I also laid out how utterly similar these two games are and a very large portion of the games content has been played and tested for a year and a half because it is the identical content from the last game.

 

 

But straight to the point, answer me this kind sir:

 

 

 

Putting in toggle cvars for:

 

 

The special 25 force restriction penalty.

 

Kicks.

 

The grip line of sight restriction.

 

 

Will damage the game how?

 

 

Please be specific in your answers, as in "if you put in a cvar for the line of sight restriction people will <your comment here>."

 

Seriously Al, you and I would be on the same side of this if this were a totally new game.

 

The problem is, when you tell me this is a totally new game I’m having a hard time buying it because the majority of the content in our game type functions in the exact same way as it did in Outcast.

 

Full force saber only game play is all about the saber and force, and not a whole hell of a lot was changed or added.

 

The same strategies still work and the same bugs, glitches and exploits are still there.

 

The problem is, nerfs, alterations, call them what you wish, did have a very negative effect on our game type.

 

We do not have any trouble beating the average players on public servers, but when two top CTF clans or two top duelers play, it’s a stalemate.

 

Our knowledge of defense and our ability to stay alive is simply too high and unfortunately the “random factor” of quick, instant death has been removed so there is simply nothing to shift the tide when played by people or clans of this skill level.

[Mephisto]

To me, a patch now is not needed. Yes, I'm still in fact adapting very much. In fact, i'm now trying to learn how to use the staff and I can safely say it is far more effective then the single. The first few duels that i used the staff, I won. Let's be practical, do a scissors with the staff = kill in 2-3 hits. Scissors with single = poof 30 dmg. I hope the rest of the community will voice out their opinion on the new saber system. Once again, I'm not asking for a patch, just giving me 2 cents