Another kick thread...

[Rumor]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

All a 1vs1 battle means is pitting one's skill against another. I freely admit that my skill level is in all likelihood subpar to his on a gameplay level. Him stomping on my ass is not going to PROVE that JO = 85% JA code. It is not going to PROVE that all moves are IDENTICAL.

 

The only way to PROVE that the code is identical is a hex listing. Somehow, I don't think any one of you is going to accept this challenge...

 

its not to test your skill. its not to prove a similarity in the code.

 

its to show you how utterly absurd your "give it time," etc arguments are.

 

its to show you how utterly destroyed our gametypes are.

[darkangel_vnv]

I didn't out right tell him not to play with Force. I asked him if he was on a server that didn't have drain, what would he do? And, besides, if you hit someone right, drain won't matter at all, now would it?

[Ardent]

I'd play a 5 vs 1 or 6 vs 1 CTF game. Once I got the flag, I guarantee you wouldn't get it back.

 

I'm a capper because that's what I ended up doing. Not because I'm particularly good at it (I happen to think I'm better at defense, frankly), but I could not only bunny-hop across the levels without slowing down once, but I could use trick bounces and all that other fun stuff. Once I had the flag, I could avoid some of the top returners for quite a while. Nigh on indefinitely if I dipped deeply into my bag of tricks.

 

One of the first things I did when I got my hands on JA (yes, I own a legitimate copy) was teach myself how to use all the new acrobatics to my advantage. After I had that figured out, I explored and mentally mapped the levels for nooks and crannies I could use.

 

Once I had that down, I checked out the two new saber forms. I checked out all the new moves, and checked on all the old ones. I adapted my saber play style to take these things into account, but when I tried to employ the tricks I'd learned in CTF I was stymied. If the FC had even the smallest clue he could avoid me for quite some time. Swarming worked, just like it always has. Pushing and pulling worked, just like they always have. Speed sabering someone with a light stance worked, just like they always have. But they're lame compared to knocking someone on their ass and eviscerating them while they're prone.

 

I've adapted. In fact, in FFAs I always place in the top three, even if it's a guns FFA. A saber-only FFA is my arena, and I dominate pretty much everyone. But it's mostly through judicious use of roll-stab, katas and push/pull to graze on my opposition. That's dumb. JA has totally lost the duel-esque feeling even a crazy FFA could give you. Now it's just a bunch of people flailing their sabers about crazily hoping to hit each other.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Rumor

its not to test your skill. its not to prove a similarity in the code.

 

its to show you how utterly absurd your "give it time," etc arguments are.

 

its to show you how utterly destroyed our gametypes are.

 

Okay, let me get this straight. HE wants me to do a 1vs1 so he can PROVE that the gameplay is the same. YOU want me to do a 1vs1 to PROVE that the gameplay is different.

 

Guess what? ALL the single bladed moves are slightly different than they are in JO 1.04. I installed it to see how much the same it all is.

 

Based on HOW different JO 1.04 and JA 1.0.x is, I think you all need to keep playing. The mechanics are quite different.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Ardent

I've adapted. In fact, in FFAs I always place in the top three, even if it's a guns FFA. A saber-only FFA is my arena, and I dominate pretty much everyone. But it's mostly through judicious use of roll-stab, katas and push/pull to graze on my opposition. That's dumb. JA has totally lost the duel-esque feeling even a crazy FFA could give you. Now it's just a bunch of people flailing their sabers about crazily hoping to hit each other.

 

So, fighting with the sabre is not the solution but kicking people to death is?

[=X=Master HeX]

From a programmers point of view I just want to give people a bit of closure on what I've observed. JA contains LOTS of the same code from JO. Don't tell me it doesn't when I know for a fact that there were traces of just about all the "new" aspects in the original JO.

 

Most the default models contained the EXACT replica of saber-staff butterfly and cartwheels.

 

Ghoul2 locational dmg was already in the works in the JO code.

 

Tweaking grip for LOS would take me 5 mins in JO.

 

Removing kick would take longer to recompile the QVMs for JO.

 

Adding force costs for moves wouldn't take very long.

 

Two sabers... been done, come-on.

 

Tweaking Dmg of weapons could be done by change a few numbers...

 

Locking movement during DFA would be a cut and paste job from red DFA code. Making them spin is more trouble then it's worth.

 

Pretty kata moves = a few functions to drag out saber drawing, some animation work, and collision information.

 

Hit boxes for models is a bit more involving, and are FAR from perfect at the moment.

 

This, in all seriousness, should have been an expansion and not branded a new game. I can't wait to take a look at the new SDK when it's released. Don't expect more then a bunch of functions moved around and made to look pretty in .net. Sure there would be some fresh new code here... but I mean the basic layout will look exactly like any other q3 game. Raven did a nice job but this is so much like a "nerfed" version of JO... Only time will tell if they answer the cries of the community. If not, then I'll be forced to do it again.

[Jello123]

GF

[MrD0min0]

Look, it's simple to dismiss the Two-handed/Dual sabers thing as easy. But a lot of work was clearly put into that aspect to make it look technically correct and at least marginally balanced. I concede that it is very much the same game functionally, but so what? So it's the same engine, so it operates very similar to its predecessor, it's a big game. Too big to be just considered an expansion. I mean, Raven never claimed it was some earth-shattering sequel. It's a stop-gap till the next itineration.

[CaptainJackZ]

Well I just started reading this thread, and I definitly have something to say to Wade

 

You said:I'd say that's reason enough to not bring back kick, stop your "s/o l33tist's" from saying "we're the best at s/o we know what's right", if the rest of us in every game type has had to learn new ways to do stuff, why in hell are you any different? You've lost something? We all have! Your skill is soooooo good in s/o that you spend more time complaining here about it than trying to find ways around it! Face it, you've lost kick, s/o is NOT in the majority (no matter how much your ego believes it is) so deal with the loss! I can't believe you'll spend so much time complaining, it's sad."

 

That's because gametypes like ffa take very little skill. All it is running around slashing, and THAT is what ctf has become. There are no "tricks" you need to learn for ffa. CTF and Duel are the two gametypes you always needed the most skill for in jk2. However in JA, there just isn't much you can do anymore. I don't know about you but I don't find an exciting game of ctf to be chasing after the fc slashing like a moron with almost 0 chance of killing him.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by CaptainJackZ

That's because gametypes like ffa take very little skill. All it is running around slashing, and THAT is what ctf has become. There are no "tricks" you need to learn for ffa. CTF and Duel are the two gametypes you always needed the most skill for in jk2. However in JA, there just isn't much you can do anymore. I don't know about you but I don't find an exciting game of ctf to be chasing after the fc slashing like a moron with almost 0 chance of killing him.

 

This is exactly the stance the ff s/o ctf community has maintained from the beginning as a whole. FF S/O CTF in JA is lame. In JO it moves faster than most people can track. Heck, I'm not really consciously playing the game when I'm doing stuff like speedrage capping. It's too fast to try to handle it on a conscious level. It's almost all reflexive. I've trained myself to go through the motions subconsciously. The only thing my conscious mind is doing it making sure nobody's in my way.

 

Now FF S/O CTF is...well it feels like running down the odd kid out and beating him down with broomsticks. There's nothing very fast or very exciting about that...it's just a drawn-out hate crime.

 

Kicking was never intended to be a primary mode of offense, and in a serious game you're not going to use it as one. But it was integral to keeping CTF and, to a lesser extent any S/O battle fast-paced and exciting, without making you feel like your avatar is a ragdoll in a shredding machine. It hit a very fine balance, and it only seemed to hit this balance with the higher-caliber competitors. So for a lot of people it seemed like kicking was broken or imbalanced or garbage or whatever. But to the FF S/O CTF and FF dueling community it was a vital link in their ability to chain precise combination attacks.

 

This doesn't really need to be re-iterated, guys. It's obvious to anyone who plays with us in JO why kick is so important. We've openly invited you all to come play and more than a few of us intend to be gracious about it. Don't harass us and we won't harass you.

[Comm539]

gf

[Rumor]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

Okay, let me get this straight. HE wants me to do a 1vs1 so he can PROVE that the gameplay is the same. YOU want me to do a 1vs1 to PROVE that the gameplay is different.

 

Guess what? ALL the single bladed moves are slightly different than they are in JO 1.04. I installed it to see how much the same it all is.

 

Based on HOW different JO 1.04 and JA 1.0.x is, I think you all need to keep playing. The mechanics are quite different.

 

you still missed the point.

 

There is so much that is EXACTLY THE SAME that he will easily dominate you.

 

There is so much that is TAKEN OUT that you won't have a chance of killing him.

 

JO any player had a CHANCE of killing. JA there isn't vs a really good player.

[Gabrobot]

Originally posted by =X=Master HeX

...

Two sabers... been done, come-on.

...

 

This statement shows that you really aren't as knowledgeable as you claim to be. The mods in JO which had two sabers used the same animations as a single saber. JA actually has new animations for two sabers so that it's actually true two sabers rather than single saber animations with a second saber attached to the players left hand. (In fact, JA has over twice as many animations as JKII had!)

 

Also, I don't remember any vehicle system which allowed editors to easily create vehicles from ridable animals to pilotable ground vehicles to flyable space craft in JO...I also don't remember JO including any of the above in MP. I don't remember a gametype which revolves around using those vehicles and specific player class types to complete objectives either. In fact, it seems that that's a hell of a lot of stuff considering that that was enough to base an entire game around (BF1942)! Raven wasn't trying to reinvent a saber system which already worked. They tweaked it and they added to it. They took what they had and because much of it was already done, they were able to make a much larger game then JKII. There are somewhere around 60-70 levels when you count both SP and MP levels...that's no expansion pack, and certainly no mod.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Gabrobot

This statement shows that you really aren't as knowledgeable as you claim to be. The mods in JO which had two sabers used the same animations as a single saber. JA actually has new animations for two sabers so that it's actually true two sabers rather than single saber animations with a second saber attached to the players left hand. (In fact, JA has over twice as many animations as JKII had!)

 

Also, I don't remember any vehicle system which allowed editors to easily create vehicles from ridable animals to pilotable ground vehicles to flyable space craft in JO...I also don't remember JO including any of the above in MP. I don't remember a gametype which revolves around using those vehicles and specific player class types to complete objectives either. In fact, it seems that that's a hell of a lot of stuff considering that that was enough to base an entire game around (BF1942)! Raven wasn't trying to reinvent a saber system which already worked. They tweaked it and they added to it. They took what they had and because much of it was already done, they were able to make a much larger game then JKII. There are somewhere around 60-70 levels when you count both SP and MP levels...that's no expansion pack, and certainly no mod.

 

The difference between what Hex knows compared to what you know can measured only in googaplexes. Nothing personal, but Hex could probably rewrite JA's code to make it a porno video if he really wanted to. Just because you've never seen a working version doesn't mean it wasn't out there. The FF S/O CTF community had quite a few mods that weren't shared or widespread outside of our community.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Ardent

The FF S/O CTF community had quite a few mods that weren't shared or widespread outside of our community.

 

So, it sounds to me like you already had one. So, why doesn't your community make a patch if Mr. Hex can "rewrite JA into a porno movie"? Sounds like unlocking a cvar shouldn't be out of his technical expertise.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Rumor

you still missed the point.

 

There is so much that is EXACTLY THE SAME that he will easily dominate you.

 

There is so much that is TAKEN OUT that you won't have a chance of killing him.

 

JO any player had a CHANCE of killing. JA there isn't vs a really good player.

 

I have already clearly stated that I would have no chance of killing him. Why? Because I am not as good! I don't care if we fight JO 1.02, 1.04, 1.04 OR JA. He's probably going to win. So, me fighting him will prove EXACTLY WHAT? That he can probably whip my ass?

[Gabrobot]

Originally posted by Ardent

The difference between what Hex knows compared to what you know can measured only in googaplexes. Nothing personal, but Hex could probably rewrite JA's code to make it a porno video if he really wanted to. Just because you've never seen a working version doesn't mean it wasn't out there. The FF S/O CTF community had quite a few mods that weren't shared or widespread outside of our community.

 

I see that because you don't actually have the knowledge to address any of the things which I said, you had to resort to saying that I know nothing and that Hex knows a godly amount. Well, I never heard of any great rewriting, of anything, which Hex has done, so pardon if I take that with a grain of salt. Please give evidence of such enormous undertakings.

 

Another point would like make about JA's differences is this: both JKII and JA use func_plats (lifts) which behave in the same way as the ones in the original Quake...that doesn't mean that JKII and JA are mods of the original Quake. It means that the code for the ones in the original Quake worked well enough that they were never changed in the past 8 years!

[CaptainJackZ]

Anybody who calls Hex not knowledgeable deserves an ass kicking. He's an awesome programmer! Ever heard of the X mod?

[Gabrobot]

I didn't say he isn't knowledgeable. I said he isn't as knowledgeable as he claims to be...I said that because of his incorrect statements.

 

xMod seems to be just a lot of tweaks. While it is not a small achievement, it is not a total rewrite of JO, nor is it as large an accomplishment as adding a whole new gametype as large as Siege (as Raven did in JA).

[the weiner dog!]

Originally posted by Kurgan

Then they got it into their heads that the game had been "nerfed" and was no longer fun, because they had been expecting kicks to be there all this time.

 

It didn't help matters of course that they relied on a style of play that had become wholly dependant on kicking...

 

Now they hope that by complaining loudly enough Raven will have no choice but to release a "patch" to add this feature back in that they've been expecting ever since the illegal beta, so that they can play exactly the same as they did in JK2.

 

So honestly I see no one to blame but themselves. They trained themselves to be reliant on kick, set themselves up to believe that kick was in the game (through illegal means) and now they are disappointed because the kicks are not there.

 

 

 

You don't know how dead wrong you are there man, no joke.

 

We would train ourselves to rely on anything that worked; a competitive player plays for the win, not style or dramatic effect.

 

The reason we used kick in 1.04 Outcast was we had no other viable options to compete with 1.04 drain.

 

It was simply using the one tool in your arsenal that could compete with that power.

 

The sabers in Outcast were weak as crap; no one will argue this point will they?

 

Now considering in Academy (in saber only modes) they are in many cases even weaker (a dead on DFA only does like 50 damage now) we are at a point where we have to try and find something that can compete with the mighty drain.

 

-sabers could not do it in outcast because they were too weak, (and before anyone pipes in with some "get some saber skill" comment let me inform everyone that some of the best full force duelists are also some of the best no force duelists) and in Academy they are now causing even less damage so that option is out once again.

 

If you can honestly tell me how a 30-50 damage swing can kill a guy who can drain back damage at three times the rate you can cause it, please do enlighten me.

 

-No combos revolving around kick mechanics.

 

 

That leaves only one option left.

 

Play "Euro style".

 

This is an inside term we use due to the way many European competition level players play.

 

They will not get within 50 feet of their opponent and only use long range attacks like level 1/2 lightning and long range pull throws.

 

They also use level 2 drain in conjunction with strafe jumping around the map (constantly) so as to heal but never get "healed off of".

 

 

It's cheap as hell but I won't lie, it's just as effective in Academy as it was in Outcast and 99% of most players have no clue how to counter that style.

 

Problem is when you get two skilled/experienced people who do play that way, it takes a good 20-30 minutes just for one single round to end, and that's just absurd.

 

 

I’m really not trying to be a jerk, but you guys keep saying we are “stuck in the past” or “need to learn the new game” but fail to realize just how utterly impossible it is to kill a skilled player who can heal at 3 times the rate you can damage him, yet none of you can offer any realistic solutions to this problem.

 

As I stated, sabers don’t do enough damage to out last the drain whoring, the combos are now gone, other than the long range attacks and constant running (from his drain) there is simply no options left.

 

Pleases, do enlighten us if any of you can, I’m not being sarcastic either.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

I have already clearly stated that I would have no chance of killing him. Why? Because I am not as good! I don't care if we fight JO 1.02, 1.04, 1.04 OR JA. He's probably going to win. So, me fighting him will prove EXACTLY WHAT? That he can probably whip my ass?

 

no that he can beat you with the exact same tactics (minus kick combos) and that it takes 10 times longer than it did in JO.

 

often times rounds in JO would last under 15 seconds, with some of the shortest being under 5 seconds.

[boinga1]

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

Now considering in Academy (in saber only modes) they are in many cases even weaker (a dead on DFA only does like 50 damage now) we are at a point where we have to try and find something that can compete with the mighty drain.

 

Have you tried Absorb recently? It is really QUITE effective at limiting Drain attacks.

 

Adn yes, the fact that the force effect is visible means your opponent will wait until the effect is gone and your drained by the absorb...then he will strike. You can always turn off Absorb, in the absence of an immeditate threat.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by boinga1

Have you tried Absorb recently? It is really QUITE effective at limiting Drain attacks.

 

Adn yes, the fact that the force effect is visible means your opponent will wait until the effect is gone and your drained by the absorb...then he will strike. You can always turn off Absorb, in the absence of an immeditate threat.

 

clue·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klls)

adj.

Lacking understanding or knowledge.

 

i think that sums it up pretty well.

[g//anarki]

Originally posted by Rumor

i think that sums it up pretty well.

 

Yes it does sum it up, Rumor. Absorb, like all other force powers take mana (or force, for all you non-jk1 players) from your force pool. A good player will wait and strafe jump all over the map so you can't catch up to him till your forcepool is depleted and go in for the drain then, causing your force pool to go to 0 and stay there as long as he drains (unless you're on one of those lame servers that have g_forceregentime set to -9999999 or something).

 

And last I checked, absorb wasn't a dark force power. So basically you're saying that anyone who wants to beat an experienced player needs to go lightside to win? Not only is this not balanced but I just proved your tactic to be useless against an experienced player in my first paragraph.

[Gabrobot]

Originally posted by Rumor

i think that sums it up pretty well.

 

Ah, you seem to lack the understanding or knowledge required to reply to boinga1's points, so instead you hint that you think he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Well, please respond to his points...he's trying to offer a solution to your problem, which I don't think has been addressed yet (the solution, not the problem).

 

I have also found that absorb is actually quite effective...I have had someone send a huge lightning attack (or other dark power attack) at me, and I end up losing no health and a full force bar. And being able to turn absorb off means I don't waste half my force because I thought someone would attack me with a dark power, and they didn't...