Time to ditch the saber system.

[cylonwwiiol]

Whatever emon this blue green pink stance thing is like pokeman maybe thats all you can understand the saber combat system is a s bad as bf1942.

 

if you cant handle something harder maybe pong is a good game for you.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Emon

I nominate Prime for world dictator.

I accept with glee!

 

Now that I am mad with power my first order of business will be to respond to the following post...

 

Originally posted by cylonwwiiol

Whatever emon this blue green pink stance thing is like pokeman maybe thats all you can understand the saber combat system is a s bad as bf1942.

Saying that the lightsaber combat in JA doesn't exist does little to convince people to consider your point of view.

 

Originally posted by cylonwwiiol

if you cant handle something harder maybe pong is a good game for you.

I suppose that then you would diss Pong because a newb might be able to defeat you and therefore Pong is teh sUxx0rz because the NU B didn't need r0xx0r s|<i11z to lam3 you with his nerfed paddle?

[Emon]

Ahahaha!

[Doctor Shaft]

Personally, I am also of the camp that wants "one hit, lethal kill sabers" and a defense system that involves different attacking styles, counter-blocking, etc., all that crap.

 

Of course, in an FPS, it would need to be a free-form system. Enter the Matrix worked because it was a single-player, console game. Yeah, the fighting was two player was well, but remember that Enter the Matrix did not emphasis as much free movement and free space as JA does. I'm sure you could argue that you could 'move around' in Enter the Matrix, but the density of the maps, the game, etc., are simply not as great as JA is.

 

Anyway, I am all for 'no running' saber combat, blocking that gets you stuck in certain animations, etc. Being a 'Street Fighter' player, this is the kind of gaming I come to expect, foolishly of course, but still, this is the gaming I am accustomed to.

 

In Street Fighter, the game is all about the counter, the attack, the pressure. Even the Street Fighter titles that involve a lot of button mashing (and, perhaps not so ironicaly, are much more popular here in the US than in the founding country, Japan) can be mastered using skill. In those Street Fighter titles, it IS evident who will win the fight within the first few seconds of the match, based on who does the best opening.

 

and yet...

 

There are still those matches where victory is pretty much guarenteed, but all the while, the 2nd player, beaten to pulp, has been building up energy to use a super combo (there's no sense in explaining the mechanics of street fighter), and while he is being relentlessly pounded on by the first player, who is relatively safe from anything the 2nd player throws, the 2nd player then tricks the first player, draws him in to a pattern, and then immediately counters. POW, suddenly we're in that situation where both fighters are 'exhausted', the timer is almost running out, and now both fighters have to 'find the advantage' again.

 

Personally, I would love to play a game where the first few hits determined the chances of my victory. I love handicaps, so long as they were based on the idea that the guy I fought had a better insight in terms of stradegy. Would a system like this be lag dependent? Yeah, but JA is already lag dependent as it stands. Sure, people with high pings can play, and do well in saber combat, but I never ever enjoy those fights with people coming in with 200 pings. Even 150 is just too high. Either you're under 100, or it's just never good for me. So in terms of lag dependency, I could care less about it.

 

In the 'Street Fighter' system, which obviously cannot be perfectly emulated in an FPS sense, nor should it be, fighting has always been like this. People with relatively equal skill levels have long fights. When the skills of the opponents are heavily skewed, the fights are painstakingly short. Unfortunately, many people are in such a 'hurry' in their games that they don't like being defeated over and over and over again. While there is certainly a limit to my patience, I am able to bear being defeated over and over in fighting games, and in the end, even the better opponents must 'try' to defeat me as opposed to simply smashing me.

 

To further support Flashblade, et al., I would mention that in a system like this... yes, there would be serious instances where people either get too bored because they never hit anyone (not enough experience with the 'theoretical combo' system, strategy, etc.) and other instances where people are upset because one guy is able to school them in three seconds (the winner being of a much higher skill level). However, the fights would become spectacular when two people who are highly skilled come into the foray. Street Fighter games remain somewhat popular because of this very fact. Take Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike for instance. It's a slow game compared to its predecessors, and on the surface it seems like it has a few tricks and trades, but not very deep. It is still being played on a competitive level to this day, however, and watching matches between the pros is something utterly amazing to see. Techniques and strategies no one would have considered using enter the foray.

 

Granted, JA and JO still have skilled saber combat matches of their own. However, after viewing the tired "use red stance" all day play style of JO, and seeing that JA is a lot of either "use red stance all day against the other two sabers, or just use the other sabers" i've concluded that it's both annoying and... well... very boring. Promod, which kept in the original system, but added a more 'true' rock/papers/scissors game added some excitement to the mix. But I would definitely like to get rid of this multi hit, look for exploits in the random blocking system. However, that won't happen, and I'll live with it. The game is still fun... but I figured that at the end of this ungodly long post, I'd like to say that there are a significant portion of us out there who do NOT appreciate games that involve so much free form as JA and JO have. Street Fighter players like structured things. Not to insult anyone though... and FPS is DIFFICULT to design. I am interested to see how this Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon stuff will play out. To the future.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

Personally, I am also of the camp that wants "one hit, lethal kill sabers" and a defense system that involves different attacking styles, counter-blocking, etc., all that crap.

I would be happy with one hit kills, just as I am happy with mutliple hits kills now. As long as they are implemented correctly, either is fine to me. The point I was trying to make earlier is that one hit kills would not necessarily make JA more "SW movie-like". Whatever way is used is fine, but the decision should be made with the fun of the game in mind.

 

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

Anyway, I am all for 'no running' saber combat, blocking that gets you stuck in certain animations, etc. Being a 'Street Fighter' player, this is the kind of gaming I come to expect, foolishly of course, but still, this is the gaming I am accustomed to.

I fear that this would be difficult to implement in non-duel gametypes for a FPS such as JA. When the fight is one-on-one, there wouldn't be as much problem. But a FPS is more or less based on running and quick movements. How would the "no running" be enforced in something like FFA? Could a gunner come up and easily blast two duelers because they couldn't run? All these issues have to be taken into account, and the final decision needs to decided by what is best for the game, and not solely what makes it look like the movies.

 

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

In Street Fighter, the game is all about the counter, the attack, the pressure. Even the Street Fighter titles that involve a lot of button mashing (and, perhaps not so ironicaly, are much more popular here in the US than in the founding country, Japan) can be mastered using skill. In those Street Fighter titles, it IS evident who will win the fight within the first few seconds of the match, based on who does the best opening.

 

and yet...

 

There are still those matches where victory is pretty much guarenteed, but all the while, the 2nd player, beaten to pulp, has been building up energy to use a super combo (there's no sense in explaining the mechanics of street fighter), and while he is being relentlessly pounded on by the first player, who is relatively safe from anything the 2nd player throws, the 2nd player then tricks the first player, draws him in to a pattern, and then immediately counters. POW, suddenly we're in that situation where both fighters are 'exhausted', the timer is almost running out, and now both fighters have to 'find the advantage' again.

Ah, this changes the previous scenario (for the better). By adding a "super combo", player2 now has a means to still be effective against player1, even though he is "fatigued." In the system Flashblade discribed, there was no means for an equally skilled player2 eventually defeat player1 after player1 gained the upper hand. Adding abilities to get player2 "back in the game" changes things completely. If player2 knows that he will have a chance to get back into it, he is much less likely to be frustrated after initially trailing.

 

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

Personally, I would love to play a game where the first few hits determined the chances of my victory. I love handicaps, so long as they were based on the idea that the guy I fought had a better insight in terms of stradegy. Would a system like this be lag dependent? Yeah, but JA is already lag dependent as it stands. Sure, people with high pings can play, and do well in saber combat, but I never ever enjoy those fights with people coming in with 200 pings. Even 150 is just too high. Either you're under 100, or it's just never good for me. So in terms of lag dependency, I could care less about it.

I agree completely on the ping issue. I don't on the handicap issue, but that is a preference. In a duel gametype it isn't so bad, but for FFA I don't think it would be so popular overall.

 

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

In the 'Street Fighter' system, which obviously cannot be perfectly emulated in an FPS sense, nor should it be, fighting has always been like this. People with relatively equal skill levels have long fights. When the skills of the opponents are heavily skewed, the fights are painstakingly short. Unfortunately, many people are in such a 'hurry' in their games that they don't like being defeated over and over and over again. While there is certainly a limit to my patience, I am able to bear being defeated over and over in fighting games, and in the end, even the better opponents must 'try' to defeat me as opposed to simply smashing me.

I have no problem with skilled players quickly dispensing with weak players. My arguments are assuming players are of equal skill. In the "fatigue" system, if player1 and player2 play 10 times, they will still likely win 5 each. The issue I have is that each will know they have claimed victory in the first few moments, as there is no "super combo" to get the losing player back into it.

 

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

To further support Flashblade, et al., I would mention that in a system like this... yes, there would be serious instances where people either get too bored because they never hit anyone (not enough experience with the 'theoretical combo' system, strategy, etc.) and other instances where people are upset because one guy is able to school them in three seconds (the winner being of a much higher skill level). However, the fights would become spectacular when two people who are highly skilled come into the foray.

But unfortunately, the vast majority of Star Wars FPS players are not highly skilled And since these players form the bulk of the players, as far as Raven is concerned they have to be given a lot of consideration. As such, they will get frustrated for the reasons mentioned, and frustrated means not having fun. Competative players may look at it differently, and that's fine.

 

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

Granted, JA and JO still have skilled saber combat matches of their own. However, after viewing the tired "use red stance" all day play style of JO, and seeing that JA is a lot of either "use red stance all day against the other two sabers, or just use the other sabers" i've concluded that it's both annoying and... well... very boring. Promod, which kept in the original system, but added a more 'true' rock/papers/scissors game added some excitement to the mix. But I would definitely like to get rid of this multi hit, look for exploits in the random blocking system. However, that won't happen, and I'll live with it. The game is still fun... but I figured that at the end of this ungodly long post, I'd like to say that there are a significant portion of us out there who do NOT appreciate games that involve so much free form as JA and JO have. Street Fighter players like structured things. Not to insult anyone though... and FPS is DIFFICULT to design. I am interested to see how this Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon stuff will play out. To the future.

Certainly your complaints about JO/JA are all well taken. But ultimately they are FPSs and so have different issues and considerations than a game like Street Fighter. It is not easy to take one system and put it in another. But that was not what I was getting at originally anyway...

 

What I was originally arguing against was not that a game with intricate lightsaber combat is bad. I was arguing that trying to make a MP game whose main goal is to look like a movie fight is asking for trouble. A game has to deviate from movie canon at some point because the needs of the game come into play. Otherwise, you can potentially have a very boring game (as I try to show with my contrived examples).

 

In any event, I disagree with you on several points, but it certainly was a well written post, and I see your point of view. I hope you can see where I am coming from as well

[razorace]

I haven't read the whole page but I can say that I am going to be working on this issue in detail once the MP qvm code is out.

[cheeto101]

ahhh now this is what forums are all about, understanding, niceness and No flames. Im impressed.

[Quiwan]

For people that want a better saber system check out PROMOD for JKO, hopefully it will be updated for JA

[Astrotoy7]

flash has the right idea i think the "fun" crowd are teenagers who didnt grow up with star wars like we did.

 

I too grew up with Star Wars. I first watched A New Hope when I was somewhere between 4 and 5, on TV mind you.... I am 28 now and realise that everyone's idea of FUN will inevitably be different. I don't care much for the intricacies of MP saber combat styles, but have had great fun playing MP nonetheless with friends who are similarly casual in their attitudes.

 

One thing great about the game and its developers is that it tries to cater to hardcore and casual gamers alike, and tools are available to enable (clever) gamers to mod them to their hearts content. If developers wanted to be snooty about it they wouldnt support it...which of course would be marketing suicide for them in the bigger picture, with the variety of different opinions and preferences out there....

 

MT F(UN) BWYA

[Flashblade]

Originally posted by Prime

But to most people the Dark Forces series is true enough to the movies we love. We understand that compromises have to be made so that the game is playable. If you decide that the Dark Forces game is not true enough for you, that's fine. But I suspect that you will be waiting forever for a FPS that has accurate lightsaber combat.

 

JKA is more a 3rd person shooter then a first person shooter now. The point is I do not see the need for a compromise that is so off that it is a travesty of the real thing. I get to that later where you talk about "my" system.

 

Sure, and there certain moves now that are a one hit kill (especially someone with 100 health and no shields). If you really want every move that way, you can have it. cg_saberrealisticcombat 10. I don't mind requiring a few hits to someone because I have seen this in SW as well.

 

Yeah there are these moves which can't be countered . Another thing I don't like things like rolling stab, dfa and the likes can't be defended against only avoided. Another thing that is utterly wrong every move can be countered with a respective counter move! Yeah you can make the saber lethal that is true but without a more life like melee system you do nothing good while doing so you just make what is bad already worse.

 

I've never heard that before. Do you have a reference for that? Anyway, I was trying to make a point about making a game too faithful to a movie (or real life). If you take it too far, you get silly things like the above. Even though we only see a darksider using a lightstaff, it isn't bad that the game diviates from this.

 

To be true I am not sure where I heard that. It might be something GL said himself anyone can verify?

 

Again, my point was not to take these things out, but to show how silly it would be to do so just because we see or don't see certain things in the movies. I'm trying to say that you have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise there are going to be too many limitations on the game.

 

see the first!

 

But what is so wrong with saber combat as it is now? I attack, my saber swings in the direction I specify (in the most basic sense). When I am not attacking, I'm defending, and when someone swings at me my saber moves to a point where it blocks it. It is quick (like "real" lightsaber fighting), but it does happen. This looks like lightsaber fighting to me.

 

If you put it simple yes this sounds like sword fighting however the devil is in the detail. In multiplayer how does the combat really work? First everybody runs around in every situation something that is allready flawed to the core and makes me wonder why Raven never put this g_sabermovespeed cvar to any use and now finally removed it with JKA. The fact is there can be no melee combat while running around like a maniac. The blades will nearly never hit each other this way. That gets us to the second point. In multiplayer the fight as it would be in reality is being avoided is it not? Before taking the risk of a saber hiting a defence the player can't count on he will more likely move away to not be hit at all. So this is how combat works avoiding the other saber and trying to score a hit that pierces the non dependable defence while running around all the time, like magnets which constantly repel and pull each other. Is that sword fighting or saber fighting?

 

But there are huge differences. It is a fantasy world, afterall. The Force, faster than light travel, system-spanning holocommunications, lightsabers, anti-gravity, and so on do not exist in our world. Sure they are explained in their world's terms, but it is still a deviation from our world. But that is what makes it fun.

 

Yes it is a SciFi Universe after all, but most things that were SciFi at one point became reality (expect for the Force of course).

 

I've never played that game, so I don't really know how it plays. It may be what you wanted, and that's great, but I have heard a lot of complaints about the fighting in that game (along with everything else in the game), so I doubt it got it perfect either.

 

I would recommend you try it out yourself. No the system is not perfect either there were alot of camera issues however to see a real blocking move to an attack is a great sight indeed. The boss Kung Fu fights are just nice.

 

In my JA (and JO for that matter does. If I am attacked and I block it, my blade sure moves more than a little bit. The same thing happens when I block blaster fire.

 

The moving of the blade when blocking blaster fire is a lot better then the moving when saber fighting. The blade moves on impact and not before that is far from being very real and it doesn't move into a believable defence position either. If you would have a sword in your hands you would move your blade to a defence position as soon as your mind understands where the attack move goes not on impact (would be to late anyway)!

 

 

Uh, what? Qui-Gon died because he was tired? What are you basing this on? The guy barely looked like he was breathing hard. And Luke got his f-ing ass kicked because Vader was unstoppable. He lost because Vader was stronger and more skilled. Are you saying Luke would have won if he was in better physical shape? In both cases they lost because their opponants made good moves that caught them off guard.

 

This maybe a point of interpretation however if Qui Gon would have been still fit at this point Maul wouldn't have been able to kill him with this move. As for Luke you definately see shortly before he looses his hand that he is worn out being all sweaty and being barely able to parry the blows. Sure when you battle someone who is stronger and technically better than you are you will fatigue very early. As for the death star scene. Lukes anger gave him power his blows were not technically better at all but they overpowered Vader wearing him out. And you see that Luke was a lot stronger then on Bespin. There Vader fights him one handed on the death star it is two hands from the beginning.

 

And there you lost me.

 

The problem with this is that you will likely never get into a situation where both players are equally fatigued (apart from the start). Once one player1 "hits" player2 and lowers player2's energy level, the battle will be more or less over between two equal players. This is because as soon as the above happens player1 now has an advantage over player2. So now player1 is even more likely to hit and fatigue player2, and player2 is now less likely to hit and fatigue player1. So what is likely to happen next? Player1 hits player2 again, increasing the energy difference between the two. Now player2 has a much lower chance of defending against player1, who is all but assured of victory. How much fun is it to be player2? And more importantly, how much fun is it to fight a game duel when, on average, you know who is going to win within the first few moments?

 

This has been brought up many times before, and IIRC Raven has said that the reason they never implement something like this (or dismemberment and so on) is because no one wants to play a game where they are handycapped against another player.

 

You got it wrong in the system I describe it would not work like that. I will have to stop here wait for my edit I will continue from here later! Ok here I am again. First of all you must have read over my writing long saber battle since you say my system would speed things up it won't. When a Jedi fights with his lightsaber empowered by the force (as they always do) he/she can do so for quite a time if he/she has an equal enemy. Things sure change when he/she fights somebody who is more powerful. However lets keep the equal opponents. In my system equal enemys would equally fatigue. It won't be so that only attack moves will fatigue the enemy. the one who makes the attack swing uses his power so he will fatigue as the one who defends against it. Also there won't be a penalty when you are high on stamina until lets say your bar reaches 50 percent. Than your force control will slowly begin to drop to a point where you are really out of stamina and it you would be left with lets say 50% of your original max force control. When reaching 40% stamina the moves of your char would become slower slowly to the point where you are really out of it and you can hardly fight back any more. Of course you are able to regain your stamina all you have to do to do this is to disengage for some time and the bar will fill up again. Yes the game would become about controlling your stamina and your force control, but I don't see what is wrong about that since that is what you would have to do in reality as well. If you fight headless wasting your energy you will certainly loose that is crystal clear. And remember what I said you would have allready fought some time til your stamina begins to affect your abbilities although since stamina would be something adjustable in my system that depends on how you configured it. A long time ago now I wrote quite a similar post of what my idea of saber combat and force use is and others who agreed with me. I invite you to read it as well since it got some stuff I left out so far.

 

JO multiplayer saber combat

 

I can honestly tell you that I would not like that system, because it is the truth

 

It would be very unsatisfying because knowing who would likely win right away is not fun, and being a player who is becoming more and more handycapped is not fun. And the deaths would be likely quicker than they are now. At least now both players are equally likely to score hits, which means on average the fight will last longer. The above will be quick, because the losing player's ability to defend themselves decreases, meaning the other player can kill them faster.

 

Now the system you have discribed may be much more representative to how a real life swordfight goes, but again this shows why games sometimes have to diverge from real life a bit to make the game fun

 

Maybe you reconsider after you read this?

[traj]

Originally posted by Darth Kaan

I guess some people don't realize that this is a game and only a game. You can play it and have fun or not play it at all. It's a simple matter of choice...

 

Yeah, and if you don't like it don't play it. Please don't make any suggestions about balancing issues. Please don't suggest how game play could be improved in the future.

 

RAVEN doesn't need to hear that their game is less than perfect. They are perfectly capable of making games without any feedback from the public. So just love it or leave it.

 

But please don't voice your concerns here on the forums. Just play it or don't.

[Flashblade]

OMG your post is how shall I put this?? ridiculous yes I like that term ridiculous. I mean WHO ARE YOU that you try to forbid me my opinion and the opinion of others here?? Raven doesn't need to hear that there game is less than perfect? Only praise right?? What kind of fanboy are you ??? Going with the herd right? If that is all you have to add to this topic (now I do as you do) please stay away.

 

Thank you very much!

 

@razorace

 

I read over you post. You wanna create such a mod with the mentioned content?? Boy you would make my dream come true . Can I jump onboard ship? I would love to be part of such a project!

[Agen]

Originally posted by Flashblade

JKA is more a 3rd person shooter then a first person shooter now. The point is I do not see the need for a compromise that is so off that it is a travesty of the real thing. I get to that later where you talk about "my" system.

Mmmmm. No, Everything but the saber can be used in first person, not many people would attempt to use guns in 3rd person, so here you have 1 weapon which is in 3rd person and that makes the whole game a 3rd person shooter? Didn't think so.

Most people, I'm sure, won't care about it not being too loyal to the movies - The lightsaber looks like one, it soudns like one and acts like one to a certain extent, it's also more fun than a movie-like one would be.

 

Yeah there are these moves which can't be countered . Wrong, everymove can be countered. You name something and i'll tell you the counter

Another thing I don't like things like rolling stab, dfa and the likes can't be defended against only avoided. Another thing that is utterly wrong every move can be countered with a respective counter move! Yeah you can make the saber lethal that is true but without a more life like melee system you do nothing good while doing so you just make what is bad already worse.

Well personally, if every move i made was able to be defended i'd get pretty p*ssed. Moving out of the way of the dfa is so ridiculously easy and roll stab is difficult to connect with on a below average player. The second part just confuses me

 

If you put it simple yes this sounds like sword fighting however the devil is in the detail. In multiplayer how does the combat really work? First everybody runs around in every situation something that is allready flawed to the core and makes me wonder why Raven never put this g_sabermovespeed cvar to any use and now finally removed it with JKA. The fact is there can be no melee combat while running around like a maniac. The blades will nearly never hit each other this way. That gets us to the second point. In multiplayer the fight as it would be in reality is being avoided is it not? Before taking the risk of a saber hiting a defence the player can't count on he will more likely move away to not be hit at all. So this is how combat works avoiding the other saber and trying to score a hit that pierces the non dependable defence while running around all the time, like magnets which constantly repel and pull each other. Is that sword fighting or saber fighting?

Well the moving part - In the movies, the characters have force powers, JA players don't have the force on their side to predict the next move - it doesn't exist, therefore players can't actually stay close to them and try to use the force out manouvere them. Anyway, this way sticks much mroe to the classic, tried and tested jk system. Not to mention close fighting with tons of blocking would be um.... boring?

 

Yes it is a SciFi Universe after all, but most things that were SciFi at one point became reality (expect for the Force of course).

Where is my hyperspace spaceship? Where are the aliens? Where's my lightsaber? Where are my super intelligent Robots?

Exactly

I would recommend you try it out yourself. No the system is not perfect either there were alot of camera issues however to see a real blocking move to an attack is a great sight indeed. The boss Kung Fu fights are just nice.

IMO, it aint that great a game, I get much more fun out of the JK series.

 

The moving of the blade when blocking blaster fire is a lot better then the moving when saber fighting. The blade moves on impact and not before that is far from being very real and it doesn't move into a believable defence position either. If you would have a sword in your hands you would move your blade to a defence position as soon as your mind understands where the attack move goes not on impact (would be to late anyway)!

Ah yes but now you're forgetting you "More Movie Like!!!" argument, in the movies they have the force (itm oves for them .. sort of ) and then they block it at the last minute it, giving them maximum time to attack for themself before the strike needs to be defended.

 

This maybe a point of interpretation however if Qui Gon would have been still fit at this point Maul wouldn't have been able to kill him with this move. As for Luke you definately see shortly before he looses his hand that he is worn out being all sweaty and being barely able to parry the blows. Sure when you battle someone who is stronger and technically better than you are you will fatigue very early. As for the death star scene. Lukes anger gave him power his blows were not technically better at all but they overpowered Vader wearing him out. And you see that Luke was a lot stronger then on Bespin. There Vader fights him one handed on the death star it is two hands from the beginning.

I jsut don't think it would make a very good game elemnt.

 

You got it wrong in the system I describe it would not work like that. I will have to stop here wait for my edit I will continue from here later! Ok here I am again. First of all you must have read over my writing long saber battle since you say my system would speed things up it won't. When a Jedi fights with his lightsaber empowered by the force (as they always do) he/she can do so for quite a time if he/she has an equal enemy. Things sure change when he/she fights somebody who is more powerful. However lets keep the equal opponents. In my system equal enemys would equally fatigue. It won't be so that only attack moves will fatigue the enemy. the one who makes the attack swing uses his power so he will fatigue as the one who defends against it. Also there won't be a penalty when you are high on stamina until lets say your bar reaches 50 percent. Than your force control will slowly begin to drop to a point where you are really out of stamina and it you would be left with lets say 50% of your original max force control. When reaching 40% stamina the moves of your char would become slower slowly to the point where you are really out of it and you can hardly fight back any more. Of course you are able to regain your stamina all you have to do to do this is to disengage for some time and the bar will fill up again. Yes the game would become about controlling your stamina and your force control, but I don't see what is wrong about that since that is what you would have to do in reality as well. If you fight headless wasting your energy you will certainly loose that is crystal clear. And remember what I said you would have allready fought some time til your stamina begins to affect your abbilities although since stamina would be something adjustable in my system that depends on how you configured it. A long time ago now I wrote quite a similar post of what my idea of saber combat and force use is and others who agreed with me. I invite you to read it as well since it got some stuff I left out so far.

Here we are again, isntead of first hit wins, we have long.. gruelling saber fights were instead of hitting the other person to hurt them you, sit there for ages building up staminda and force to to try and hrut the enemy, Then once you've hurt the other person, but fatigued yourself you have to run away (DURING A DUEL?!) and try and regain stamina jsut so you can fight again and go over it all.... Sounds pretty boring to me and by that tiem the other person will ahve ran over and tried to hit you making more running away.... Bad substitute for the jousting sabers imo

 

I jsut think people take this a little too seriously, instead of dreaming about your system why not learn this system and go kick some ass. If you have the knowledge, by all emans create you own system through a mod but i think this is a pretty invalid argument. This saber system is fine os far

[Flashblade]

Agen_Terminator I will answer this later however do me a favor when you answer to one of my posts next time. Could you stop trivializing my arguments please. It is just plain rude!

[Prime]

Originally posted by Flashblade

JKA is more a 3rd person shooter then a first person shooter now. The point is I do not see the need for a compromise that is so off that it is a travesty of the real thing. I get to that later where you talk about "my" system.

Fair enough. Even as a third person shooter it still has to deal with the issues of that style of game. And I will mention some of these issues further down...

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

Yeah there are these moves which can't be countered .

Another thing I don't like things like rolling stab, dfa and the likes can't be defended against only avoided. Another thing that is utterly wrong every move can be countered with a respective counter move!

From what I have seen, every move can be counterattacked. With the rollstab and dfa, you can mearly side step and strike, since they are defenceless after completing their move (blue uppercut is great for this). Rollstab is great for fighting katas, and so on. What moves do you think can't be defended against?

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

If you put it simple yes this sounds like sword fighting however the devil is in the detail. In multiplayer how does the combat really work? First everybody runs around in every situation something that is allready flawed to the core and makes me wonder why Raven never put this g_sabermovespeed cvar to any use and now finally removed it with JKA. The fact is there can be no melee combat while running around like a maniac.

But you haven't answered my question from the previous post. Suppose you force people not to run when they are dueling. This is probably managable in the Duel. But what about Seige, FFA, and CTF? Once you have more than two opponants, problems arise. If two players are dueling (and therefore can't run), what's to stop somone with a concussion rifle from blasting them both? They can't run out of the way. How do you determine who is dueling and who isn't? Is it two people with sabers up being in close proximity to each other? If so, then in the middle of a fight one player can't run away because he can't run and may be too fatigued. How about a FFA with more than two saberists fighting at the same time? Are they all walking? That would be a sniper's field day since everyone would be such easy targets. What if someone with a saber is just running by the fight? Do they have to walk through it because they have to switch to "duel mode"?

 

What if one of the two players doesn't want to fight in the first place? If they are in duel mode, he can't run away because running is "turned off". How would saber-only CTF work? If someone is running with the flag and their saber is up, and a defend get's close to them with their saber up, does the game now force the flag carrier to stop running even though he doesn't want to fight? Then you will have games where you have walking chases. That would be pretty silly, wouldn't it?

 

How do you handle a saberist versus a gunner? Can a saberist run while he is chopping a gunner? If not, he will never be able to catch the gunner because the gunner can run and he can't. That would put the saberist at a bigger disadvantage than he is now. If yes, why can he run while fighting a gunner and not while he is fighting another saberist?

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

I would recommend you try it out yourself. No the system is not perfect either there were alot of camera issues however to see a real blocking move to an attack is a great sight indeed. The boss Kung Fu fights are just nice.

Considering the bad reviews, I'll probably wait until it comes down in price. But I'm sure I'll try it at some point

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

The moving of the blade when blocking blaster fire is a lot better then the moving when saber fighting. The blade moves on impact and not before that is far from being very real and it doesn't move into a believable defence position either. If you would have a sword in your hands you would move your blade to a defence position as soon as your mind understands where the attack move goes not on impact (would be to late anyway)!

I am not to concerned about the animations, so if these were changed I wouldn't be upset. It is the gameplay changes that I am taking issue with

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

This maybe a point of interpretation however if Qui Gon would have been still fit at this point Maul wouldn't have been able to kill him with this move. As for Luke you definately see shortly before he looses his hand that he is worn out being all sweaty and being barely able to parry the blows. Sure when you battle someone who is stronger and technically better than you are you will fatigue very early. As for the death star scene. Lukes anger gave him power his blows were not technically better at all but they overpowered Vader wearing him out. And you see that Luke was a lot stronger then on Bespin. There Vader fights him one handed on the death star it is two hands from the beginning.

But fatigue and being defeated by a better opponants are two different things. In the movies if one fighter is physically stronger than another, he is going to be at an advantage, and yes he will likely fatigue

the weaker fighter. But again, the game has to deviate from the movie because it can't make one player physically stronger than another. Everyone has to be the same. Otherwise, who is going to want to be the weaker player?

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

You got it wrong in the system I describe it would not work like that. I will have to stop here wait for my edit I will continue from here later! Ok here I am again. First of all you must have read over my writing long saber battle since you say my system would speed things up it won't.

I think I have already shown in my previous why I think your system would speed things up. But this is discussed more below...

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

When a Jedi fights with his lightsaber empowered by the force (as they always do) he/she can do so for quite a time if he/she has an equal enemy. Things sure change when he/she fights somebody who is more powerful.

Again, this is true in the movies, but you will never have this situation in a game because all the players must be of equal strength (in game terms). Otherwise the game is unfair. Where the differences between good and bad players comes in is with the skill.

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

However lets keep the equal opponents. In my system equal enemys would equally fatigue. It won't be so that only attack moves will fatigue the enemy. the one who makes the attack swing uses his power so he will fatigue as the one who defends against it.

But this sytem doesn't work in either case. Either one player becomes fatigued faster than the other, or they both fatigue about the same rate. The first case I have already discussed the problems. For the second case, why have fatigue at all? If each player is going to have more or less the same fatigue level, neither has an advantage, but both have all the imposed limitaions. Why would both players want to fight handicapped? Eventaully you might reach a point where both players are so fatigued that all they can do is weak little strikes. Is this a better fight? Not to a lot of players.

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

Also there won't be a penalty when you are high on stamina until lets say your bar reaches 50 percent. Than your force control will slowly begin to drop to a point where you are really out of stamina and it you would be left with lets say 50% of your original max force control. When reaching 40% stamina the moves of your char would become slower slowly to the point where you are really out of it and you can hardly fight back any more.

But not imposing handicaps until fatigue is at 50% just delays the same problems. Once one player gets to 50%, the other knows that they have claimed victory. Why would players want to continue the fight when they know the fight is already over? And all this does is turn the first 50% back to the way the game plays now.

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

Of course you are able to regain your stamina all you have to do to do this is to disengage for some time and the bar will fill up again. Yes the game would become about controlling your stamina and your force control, but I don't see what is wrong about that since that is what you would have to do in reality as well.

But they will never be able to disengage in this system beacuse you have forced the player not to run. How is going to disengage? He is fatigued to the point where he is slower than his opponent anyway, so how is going to escape his faster opponant? The fact is he can't. Is he just supposed to not attack? This doesn't work either because even defending he is getting more fatigued, right? All this again means the fight was over as soon as one player gets more fatigued at the 50% barrier.

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

If you fight headless wasting your energy you will certainly loose that is crystal clear. And remember what I said you would have allready fought some time til your stamina begins to affect your abbilities although since stamina would be something adjustable in my system that depends on how you configured it.

If an attacker can get more fatigued than the defender by attacking, why is he going to attack? This will turn the game into a staring contest because attacking may put the player at a disadvantage fatigue-wise. Why would he do this to himself? You are going to end up with very boring fights because everyone is going to be reluctant to attack.

 

And if you make it so the defender also gets just as fatigued as the attacker, who would anyone sit around defending? If I'm going to get fatigued in either case, at least if I keep attacking I may get some hits in. This may just encourage button mashing even more.

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

A long time ago now I wrote quite a similar post of what my idea of saber combat and force use is and others who agreed with me. I invite you to read it as well since it got some stuff I left out so far.

I am not arguing that others might like a more movie-like system. I am arguing that there are issues that come up in a game that don't have to be considered in a movie.

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

Maybe you reconsider after you read this?

I'm afraid I haven't, but this is a good debate

[Agen]

Could you stop trivializing my arguments please. It is just plain rude!

We aren't arguing, we're debating! lol, j/k, couldn't resist

[razorace]

Originally posted by Flashblade

@razorace

 

I read over you post. You wanna create such a mod with the mentioned content?? Boy you would make my dream come true . Can I jump onboard ship? I would love to be part of such a project!

 

Well, I can't really comment on if our system will be similar to what's being discussed here. I haven't read most of the thread. If you're interested, just pop on over to the motf forum and take a looksie. You'll need to set the forum to show threads that are 30+ days old to see everything. We've been waiting for JKA and haven't talked much recently.

 

Please note that we might end up renaming the mod to make it more "accessible" for JKA players. The MotF name really confused the heck out of the JK2 players.

[Cecil]

I don't think the real problem is with the sabers, but with the cvars.

 

If the default cvars didn't make sabers so weak, or the hit detiction so off, then i think it would please most everyone.

 

Although a active block system would be nice, it would be very hard to implement into this type of game.

[razorace]

Nah, the hard part is implimenting a hit detection/reaction system that feels realistic/right. The active blocking is easy.

[Flashblade]

Ok took me some time to get back here. Agen_Terminator I hope you don't mind that I answer Prime first and more extensive than your post, but I will pick some of your arguments up!

 

Originally posted by Prime

From what I have seen, every move can be counterattacked. With the rollstab and dfa, you can mearly side step and strike, since they are defenceless after completing their move (blue uppercut is great for this). Rollstab is great for fighting katas, and so on. What moves do you think can't be defended against?

 

You answered that yourself. You can avoid those moves but you can't counter them see the difference?

 

But you haven't answered my question from the previous post. Suppose you force people not to run when they are dueling. This is probably managable in the Duel. But what about Seige, FFA, and CTF? Once you have more than two opponants, problems arise. If two players are dueling (and therefore can't run), what's to stop somone with a concussion rifle from blasting them both? They can't run out of the way. How do you determine who is dueling and who isn't? Is it two people with sabers up being in close proximity to each other? If so, then in the middle of a fight one player can't run away because he can't run and may be too fatigued. How about a FFA with more than two saberists fighting at the same time? Are they all walking? That would be a sniper's field day since everyone would be such easy targets. What if someone with a saber is just running by the fight? Do they have to walk through it because they have to switch to "duel mode"?

 

What if one of the two players doesn't want to fight in the first place? If they are in duel mode, he can't run away because running is "turned off". How would saber-only CTF work? If someone is running with the flag and their saber is up, and a defend get's close to them with their saber up, does the game now force the flag carrier to stop running even though he doesn't want to fight? Then you will have games where you have walking chases. That would be pretty silly, wouldn't it?

 

How do you handle a saberist versus a gunner? Can a saberist run while he is chopping a gunner? If not, he will never be able to catch the gunner because the gunner can run and he can't. That would put the saberist at a bigger disadvantage than he is now. If yes, why can he run while fighting a gunner and not while he is fighting another saberist?

 

I admit that only the duel mode is of interest to me so point taken. Especially CTF is a gamemode that in my opinion doesn't fit into Star Wars at all. Such a gametype belongs to games like UT or Quake but it doesn't fit the Star Wars theme! Who can truelly say how good such a system would work in the other gamemodes? Since the system doesn't exist can one tell?

 

But fatigue and being defeated by a better opponants are two different things. In the movies if one fighter is physically stronger than another, he is going to be at an advantage, and yes he will likely fatigue

the weaker fighter. But again, the game has to deviate from the movie because it can't make one player physically stronger than another. Everyone has to be the same. Otherwise, who is going to want to be the weaker player?

 

I never said I want differently strong players you misunderstood this. Of course players need to be all equally strong since skill decides the victor.

 

Again, this is true in the movies, but you will never have this situation in a game because all the players must be of equal strength (in game terms). Otherwise the game is unfair. Where the differences between good and bad players comes in is with the skill.

 

But this sytem doesn't work in either case. Either one player becomes fatigued faster than the other, or they both fatigue about the same rate. The first case I have already discussed the problems. For the second case, why have fatigue at all? If each player is going to have more or less the same fatigue level, neither has an advantage, but both have all the imposed limitaions. Why would both players want to fight handicapped? Eventaully you might reach a point where both players are so fatigued that all they can do is weak little strikes. Is this a better fight? Not to a lot of players.

 

I can tell you why I would want to have to deal with such a handicap. Because it gives depth to the whole experience, it makes things more real and since you've read my review if I remember this right you know that I am all for a deep gameplay experience!

 

But not imposing handicaps until fatigue is at 50% just delays the same problems. Once one player gets to 50%, the other knows that they have claimed victory. Why would players want to continue the fight when they know the fight is already over? And all this does is turn the first 50% back to the way the game plays now.

 

But they will never be able to disengage in this system beacuse you have forced the player not to run. How is going to disengage? He is fatigued to the point where he is slower than his opponent anyway, so how is going to escape his faster opponant? The fact is he can't. Is he just supposed to not attack? This doesn't work either because even defending he is getting more fatigued, right? All this again means the fight was over as soon as one player gets more fatigued at the 50% barrier.

 

If an attacker can get more fatigued than the defender by attacking, why is he going to attack? This will turn the game into a staring contest because attacking may put the player at a disadvantage fatigue-wise. Why would he do this to himself? You are going to end up with very boring fights because everyone is going to be reluctant to attack.

 

And if you make it so the defender also gets just as fatigued as the attacker, who would anyone sit around defending? If I'm going to get fatigued in either case, at least if I keep attacking I may get some hits in. This may just encourage button mashing even more.

 

I disagree we are now at the point where debating gets us nowhere I fear. I don't think the game will be over when one of the Jedi reaches 50%. There is still a wildcard which we haven't discussed much at all the Force. With everything you can pull of with the Force you won't be able to tell what the outcome of such a battle would be. I could even think of a new force power something like a fast meditation that allows you to regain some stamina. Don't forget what I described here is a basic concept which would need to be worked over and tweaked but I m sure that this basic approach can be made working!

 

I'm afraid I haven't, but this is a good debate

 

I'm enjoying this as well

 

Now Agen_Terminator

 

Yeah there are these moves which can't be countered . Wrong, everymove can be countered. You name something and i'll tell you the counter

 

You ripped apart what belongs together here. And you answered it yourself. That you like that moves for how the game plays now I understand however I hate them since they are unrealistic!

 

Well the moving part - In the movies, the characters have force powers, JA players don't have the force on their side to predict the next move - it doesn't exist, therefore players can't actually stay close to them and try to use the force out manouvere them. Anyway, this way sticks much mroe to the classic, tried and tested jk system. Not to mention close fighting with tons of blocking would be um.... boring?

 

The JA players doesn't need the force. This could be simulated by the game automatically. You played ETM remember Agent fights and Boss fights? You should have an idea how this could look like!

 

Where is my hyperspace spaceship? Where are the aliens? Where's my lightsaber? Where are my super intelligent Robots?

 

Should I comment this? No I don't think so this should be obvious.

 

Ah yes but now you're forgetting you "More Movie Like!!!" argument, in the movies they have the force (itm oves for them .. sort of ) and then they block it at the last minute it, giving them maximum time to attack for themself before the strike needs to be defended.

 

I did not read above.

 

Here we are again, isntead of first hit wins, we have long.. gruelling saber fights were instead of hitting the other person to hurt them you, sit there for ages building up staminda and force to to try and hrut the enemy, Then once you've hurt the other person, but fatigued yourself you have to run away (DURING A DUEL?!) and try and regain stamina jsut so you can fight again and go over it all.... Sounds pretty boring to me and by that tiem the other person will ahve ran over and tried to hit you making more running away.... Bad substitute for the jousting sabers imo

 

You read the part with the

adjustable stamina did you? If you want your quick kill just configure stamina that way!

 

Yes you would have to disengage to regain it logic isn't it. You really want to complain about that since your jousting sabers consist of nothing but closing in and retreating, are you serious??

 

I jsut think people take this a little too seriously, instead of dreaming about your system why not learn this system and go kick some ass.

 

Why should I want to do this?? I hate this system since it has nothing to do with what I want to experience!

 

This saber system is fine os far

 

No it is not and about a mod I answered that in an earlier post!

[Doctor Shaft]

Ah, razorace, now i remembered your name.

 

Masters of the Force had a promising premise when i tried out the 'betas'. I liked the dodge feature, it made sense to me. I liked how the blocking, while hard to get past in a 'sense', was still passable. And at the same time, it removed that sense of 'i'm hitting the guy several times with me sabar!', instead it was just understood that the person narrowly escaped. After his points were gone, no more escaping, and the health got cut down very quickly.

 

If i could make one comment, which i'm sure you will tell me to take to the MotF threads, which i will when i stop being lazy, i would say that a fun dynamic perhaps would be to keep the 'dodge' system, but rather than leave it always a full unless you are attacked and guarenteed a hit, you also give the system a drain when you attack with the saber, fire weapons, use force powers, etc. Make it a game of managing the dodge meter so that the lethal weaponry isn't so dangerous to you... eh, it's your mod, i'm sure you've got better ideas up your sleeve. I liked the concept though.

 

Out of all the 'mods' i found present, only a few really perked my interest. Promod... of course, i liked Force mod as well, but MotF was always the one that drew my attention most, but proved to be too hearty a project to be worht pursuing in JO, which is understandable. Hopefully you can do something with JA though. I'll wait and watch. You have a semi-follower here.

[razorace]

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

If i could make one comment, which i'm sure you will tell me to take to the MotF threads,

 

Take it to the MotF forum!!!

 

which i will when i stop being lazy, i would say that a fun dynamic perhaps would be to keep the 'dodge' system, but rather than leave it always a full unless you are attacked and guarenteed a hit, you also give the system a drain when you attack with the saber, fire weapons, use force powers, etc. Make it a game of managing the dodge meter so that the lethal weaponry isn't so dangerous to you... eh, it's your mod, i'm sure you've got better ideas up your sleeve. I liked the concept though.[/b]

 

Noted. That's the plan actually. The Force power meter will be converted into a larger "fatigue" meter that slowly recharges outside of combat but supplies the energy for all your activities (other than dodge). I intentionally seperated the Dodge meter from the Fatigue so that skilled players wouldn't be forced to totally wear out his opponent before killing him. Since the Dodge meter recharges (from the fatigue meter) at a different rate than the fatigue meter, a few quick "hits" within a certain time period will kill your opponent instantly. I just never got around to making the fatigue meter work in any of the JK2 MotF betas. As a result, the Dodge meter was never balanced for gameplay.

 

Fortunately, the game stopping engine limitations of JK2 should be gone now and I can continue the project.

[Flashblade]

Hmm razorace fatigue meter, dodge meter, that sounds exactly like what I am looking for. A few questions does fatigue meter handicap force use (since this would make sense)? So you will be able to overcome the defense of your opponent if you are able to score a lot of hits in quick succession?

[razorace]

I'm not sure what your particular definition for handicapped force use is but, yes, Force power usage is effected by (and directly linked to) your fatigue meter. I imagine force use will take up much more fatigue than originally but that will be counter by a much larger reserve of fatigue.

 

Well, simply attacking your oppenent a lot will not nessicarily cause you to break his defenses and kill him. To deplete your opponent's dodge meter, you have to swing in attacks that would have otherwise hit your oppenent. This means that a skillful attacker or defender can wear their opponenet out simply by attacking/defending well.

 

In theory, I'll be able to set it up so that the saber will auto block (at a cost of dodge) when the saber is out of position (IE, blocking left when he shoudl have blocked right).

[BloodRiot]

Yup MOTF impressed me alot when i tried it. Making the saber more deadly like 1 hit kill for direct hits or 2 to 3 hit kills for just scratching the surface. Countering it with the dodge meter... it's very cool..and this fatigue system you are talking about sounds cool. It sounds pretty good to me... i'd definetly give it a go.

 

I definetly want to ear more about this.

 

Cheers.