OJP: New Animations Project

[keshire]

It's recreating the skeleton thats the problem. I've done some work on it and have tried quite a few methods. But the skeleton I've used which is a modified form of corto's, isn't working very well. After merging the animations usually deform themselves.

 

So it's probably best to wait until Wudan finishes his Dragon or a skeleton suitable for animating is released by someone with extensive knowledge in this area.

 

I'm pretty sure your just going to wind up frustrated on this endeaver.

 

*edit*

On another note what makes you so confident in your abilities to get this done in a timely manner? I'm just curious.

[razorace]

Has anyone asked Raven for a usable animation skeleton for JK3, I'm sure they had to have one for some of the force powered animations.

[Marker0077]

Originally posted by Wudan

It's that easy - now go do it.

Sure thing, I think I'll make the first animation be the "giving the bird" taunt. :-)

 

I am going to try & get with ASk before I do the system change on the LAN here at home. I more than likely won't really be able to get into this until after the system change which could take up to 2 weeks, but again, the animations end of this has bumped up to priority #1 for me so rest assured I will get to it as soon as I can.

Originally posted by keshire

But the skeleton I've used which is a modified form of corto's, isn't working very well.

Well perhaps that's your problem. Have you tried creating your own? There's not a world of a difference between the JK2 & JK3 skeleton.

Originally posted by keshire

So it's probably best to wait until Wudan finishes his Dragon or a skeleton suitable for animating is released by someone with extensive knowledge in this area.

I wasn't even aware Wudan was working on the skeleton, from what ASk & RA was telling me, he was working on a different proggy. Cool, 2 heads are better than one. The more the merrier I say.

Originally posted by keshire

On another note what makes you so confident in your abilities to get this done in a timely manner? I'm just curious.

Who said anything about timely? Hell, I'll be lucky if I can even get started in a timely manner.

 

I never said anything about time man, all I am saying is... well let's just say that most people, not all just most people, do not put the same amount of effort into their work as I do. So no matter how good of a job you do or have done, that's going to be my state of mind (unless I know you) because that's just how people are in general. Even if I did know you though, I try to be as thorough as possible & would more than likely go through whatever it is again anyways.

 

I just find it hard to believe that someone can get JK2 animations working but are stumped on the JK3 animations - nope, soz, don't buy it. I think there's something really wrong with this picture & I intend to find out what.

 

Between my Raven contacts (which in all honestly are not really established, but contacts none the less) & the various coders, modelers, & other developers of sorts in the JK community & others as well, I think I have a fairly decent shot at making this happen; But we'll just see what happens.

 

I don't care to deal with non-constructive critisism no matter how hopeless or whatever the case may be, & I'm not trying to imply that you were, I'm just saying in general, non-constructive critisism is something I DO NOT appreciate at all.

Originally posted by razorace

Has anyone asked Raven for a usable animation skeleton for JK3, I'm sure they had to have one for some of the force powered animations.

I know ASk or Corto talked with them a bit regarding this (forgot whom, think it was Corto). The impression I got from whomever was Raven wasn't necessarily unwilling to help but not really willing to help either.

 

I do have a variety of Raven contacts, I will try & make use of them to get what information is needed but I first need to get myself more familiar with what the problems are in detail, any solutions that I/we can come up with, etc; etc. before I even ask them anything.

[Marker0077]

I just got done chatting with ASk so here's an update for you guys...

 

When Corto made the JK2 skeleton, he ran ASk's program like

glamerge.exe _humanoid.gla -l

& that dumped out information which was essential for creating the skeleton. After they released this skeleton for JK2 there was only like 1 person who tried to make new animations & I guess they didn't do it right. Now I don't know about you guys but if I spent a bunch of time putting something like this together & only 1 person tried to make animations, I'd be pretty pist & wouldn't want to do it over again, thus probably why Corto didn't & just tried modifying the JK2 skeleton into a JK3 skeleton.

 

The skeleton needs to be completely re-created & I need SoftImage XSI to do that. Now I do have this program but unfortunately, it does not work in Win98. It only works in Win2k & above OS's so this is not something I can start on until after the LAN change.

[keshire]

Recreating the skeleton in Max would be a no go. If things are different like ASK and Corto suspect then yes you'd need these things.

 

Bone data from glamerge

and soft image to recreate it.

 

From what I understand ASK's bone data is only relative in SoftImage.

[Wudan]

That's not entirely true - the skeleton can still be exported from Max to the XSI format in the same manner that a model is made: It's just that no one reproduced it in the right order or in the right hierarchy.

 

If I knew much of anything about XSI I could be more help, but I haven't really pressed to make more converters for this and that - I just deal with GLA animation in it's native format, using some very powerful math-magic.

 

I worked with Corto and ASk on this project for JK2, and still have very regular contact with Corto. ASk has given me the source to glamerge (not amazing, I think he'd give it to anybody), but I think I have a few tricks for improving on his methods.

[Marker0077]

As far as animations were concerned, I was never planning on using 3DS Max. I have a bit more experience with 3DS but I'm still pretty much a n00b when it comes down to it. I was planning on learning how to use XSI to do this, I figured why work with something trying to imitate the real thing when I have the real thing. Yes, it'll be more of a pain in the butt to take the extra time to learn how to do this in XSI but the final product should be better.

 

As far as using ASk's code goes, if you think you can improve it then more power to you but I don't want to keep ASk out of the loop because he is still interested in the project.

 

I understand Wudan's & Corto's skepticism on just how serious I am about making this happen considering how most people are in general, however I am very serious about this & plan on doing everything possible to make this happen.

 

I think I mentioned this before but in case I didn't, I may end up not being online on a regular basis so that's why this has bumped up to priority #1. This is something that developers can use, not just players & to me, developers come first. At least the real ones do.

[keshire]

Put me on that list of devs. I plan on doing some pretty extensive work on animations. My only set back is the skeleton.

 

I'd like to make more functional animations though.

 

But its up to Coders to help me along this route. I want to make new states like hanging off the side of cliffs and a sniper crouch/lay down.

 

With the cliff hanging I'd also go with two pull-ups. A regular and a jedi (like obi-wan in PM)

 

With the sniper laydown I'd like to add in the shuffling along the ground and the abiltiy to roll side-to-side like when your in the knockdown state.

 

Then I planned on helping Renegade with his scripted locks.

[razorace]

Get us the animations and we will do the code.

[Marker0077]

http://www.gamingforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=886

 

Have an idea for a new animation to add to the pack? Add it there. Matter fact, we should pretty much just close this thread down & post a sticky URL to forward people to where the AnimPack is now going to be discussed.

Originally posted by keshire

Put me on that list of devs. I plan on doing some pretty extensive work on animations.

There isn't really a "list" of developers. It pretty much works like OJP, you have an animation you'd like to see added, post about it in the forums & call dibs.

 

While I have posted some ideas in the AnimPack forum, I haven't called dibs on any because my first priority is getting the skeleton done. FYI.

Originally posted by keshire

But its up to Coders to help me along this route. I want to make new states like hanging off the side of cliffs and a sniper crouch/lay down.

 

With the cliff hanging I'd also go with two pull-ups. A regular and a jedi (like obi-wan in PM)

I like the idea of grabbing ledges & just hanging there. We'd probably want to use the use button in conjunction with that, then have people release the use button & just hit forward to climb up or something like that (because jump will do a force jump like Obi in Ep1 (Maul fight scene)).

 

I have removed the ledge flip post in the AnimPack forums & combined these 2 together because they will work hand in hand.

Originally posted by keshire

With the sniper laydown I'd like to add in the shuffling along the ground and the abiltiy to roll side-to-side like when your in the knockdown state.

I added this to the forums as well but in the future, I'd appreciate it if people posted their own ideas (now that I finally have the forums going).

[keshire]

That'd be nice but gamingforums doesn't mesh well with websense, which is the web-blocker I use here at work. And i don't play on the net at home because its disrespectful to my wife.

 

*edit*

 

Also. after some testing it looks as if the standard xsi exporter for max that Raven released with JKO screws up the skeleton. I loaded up Corto's skeleton in SoftImageXSI EXP and then the same skeleton loaded up and then immediately exported from max. And low and behold.

 

The only other exporters I've found (through the SoftImage website) only export them out as NULLS.

 

Any ideas/suggestions?

 

And why doesn't this happen with custom skeletons? Is it becuase I've built the skeleton directly in MAX instead of pulling it from an outside XSI?

[Marker0077]

Originally posted by keshire

That'd be nice but gamingforums doesn't mesh well with websense, which is the web-blocker I use here at work. And i don't play on the net at home because its disrespectful to my wife.

You can add URLs to web-blockers.

 

Look, LucasForums has more restrictions (i.e. you can't attach files, avatars have to be smaller, any other features it does have is based on a credit system (or at least used to be) = gh3y). With GamingForums, there's no ads, faster load times, no restrictions, plus I may get my manager spot back there & even if I don't, I have friends there from when I was FN staff. There's no way I'm not going with GamingForums. The *ONLY* thing LucasForums has going for it is the traffic amount - that's it.

Originally posted by keshire

Also. after some testing it looks as if the standard xsi exporter for max that Raven released with JKO screws up the skeleton.

The XSI plugins that came with the JK2 SDK do not load the JK3 skeletons (that came with the JK3 SDK) correctly either. There is another XSI importer out there that does work but the animations bar messes up whenever I used it so it's obviously buggy & I didn't feel like dealing with it. Perhaps it can load the XSI files correctly but to me, it's just one more reason not to use Max for this.

 

I'll use Max to work on models. For the animations, I plan on keeping it straight up XSI all the way. That's what Raven used, that's what I'll use. Well, that's at least the plan so far, however, we all know things don't normally work out the way they were originally planned so we'll just have to wait & see what happens.

[ASk]

ASk has given me the source to glamerge (not amazing, I think he'd give it to anybody)

 

Not precisely

 

First of all, I was returning a favor, after all, you gave me the source of glaneo

 

Second, I know you and the target that you strive to achieve, therefore my code can only help you.

 

Feel free to improve over it, the code is awfully messy as I look at it now. It could use some optimisations in terms of searching for data and manipulating it.

 

However, I do frown at you for that remark. That wasn't needed at all.

[Emon]

What's the big deal with that comment? Doesn't seem so harmful to me. I don't even know why some of you are so protective of your source code in the first place.

[razorace]

I think it's because he was the man behind the glassy null.

[CortoCG]

What's the big deal with the animations stuff? Oh well. First of all, I DO HAVE JK3, right out from the shelf when it came out.

 

Now, marker0077, what makes you think that Mike Gummelt or even God is gonna help you out on this one? When they did nothing b4.

 

YOU DONT NEED SOFTIMAGE XSI to make new animations for JK2 or JK3. Gummelt is a programmer for Christ sakes, he has no clue on how the animations where made or compiled.

 

One piece of advice from the person who wasn't lazy enough to achieve the goal of making a suitable skeleton for animations for JK2: TAKE IT EASY, cuz if you try to run over the world in your quest for it, the world is gonna crush you silly. Many ppl told me, Ask and Wudan, that making new anims was impossible and about the end of the world, and bla bla bla. Guess what, they were al wrong, AND I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

 

I also take you're new on this of researching stuff, so, read first and learn. Then talk a lot.

 

As I'm posting this I'm gonna make a skelly suitable for animations for JK3, with meshes as bones and not nulls, cuz seems like you ppl find it difficult to animate that way , even you talk like experts.

 

Adiós compadres.

[Marker0077]

Sorry about the delay on the post people but I am going to be busy with this LAN change for some time. I don't even have the server done yet but I am close, then after that I have 3 or 4 more PC's to take care of so please try & bare with me.

Originally posted by Emon

What's the big deal with that comment? Doesn't seem so harmful to me.

I think it was taken out of context but I see what ASk is saying. It does somewhat appear that he was degrading ASk's work but I don't think it was meant like that.

Originally posted by Emon

I don't even know why some of you are so protective of your source code in the first place.

Ever had someone steal something from you? There's all kinds of wannabes & thieves out there man, you need to protect your work. It's not a matter of trust, it's a business thing. I can think of a variety of obvious reasons why an authors work should be protected, I can't think of 1 good reason why it shouldn't. It's just better to have something & not need it than to need something & not have it. At least that's my opinion.

Originally posted by CortoCG

What's the big deal with the animations stuff?

I think this is pretty self explanitory but I'll answer the question. You can do a variety of things with new animations, make new moves, new taunts, all kinds of cool stuff - that's what the big deal is.

 

There's alot of people who want to make alot of things happen but can't due to lack of new animations, this will be an animation pack for everyones needs. Should be kick arse.

Originally posted by CortoCG

Now, marker0077, what makes you think that Mike Gummelt or even God is gonna help you out on this one? When they did nothing b4.

umm, I think you are taking what I said out of context dude, you need to re-read what I posted.

 

I didn't say that anyone would respond (which it seems to me that you are implying, anyone please correct me if that's not how it appeared to them), matter fact I said something along the lines of they may not respond at all.

 

What I do know is where there's a will, there's a way & I said I am going to try my best, nothing more. I have tons of contacts, perhaps if they see someone trying hard enough they'll listen. Perhaps not. We'll see.

Originally posted by CortoCG

YOU DONT NEED SOFTIMAGE XSI to make new animations for JK2 or JK3. Gummelt is a programmer for Christ sakes, he has no clue on how the animations where made or compiled.

Mike Gummelt is apart of the team & he talks with the other staff, I'm thinking someone told him that that's what they used. Now perhaps you do not *need* Softimage XSI to do this but this is what I was told by ASk (I think) & this is what Mike Gummelt said in an interview. Considering the file format is based on the program, I don't think using it is going to hurt. If anything, the animations should come out better, I mean hell, if it's good enough for the makers of Shrek & the Animatrix & whatever other movies, I think it's certainly good enough for us but I could be wrong.

 

Once I have the LAN change done, this is my #1 priority. I can't give more than that.

Originally posted by CortoCG

...AND I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

I don't think I ever said that you didn't know what you were talking about, at least not to that extent. You made a working skeleton for JK2 so that obviously means, at the very minimum, you know enough about this to get the job done but I tried coming to you & got the whole "animations in each folder" thing when we were only talking about the _humanoid skeleton & what you told me just totally didn't add up. Now perhaps there was some miscommunication there but when I tried to clarify, you just didn't want to talk (pretty much wouldn't at that point).

 

I'm guessing you just saw me as one of the other people out there that came your way whom are just not willing to get off their lazy bum & make this happen properly, which considering some of the BS you've had to put up with in the past, I can understand & even relate to that - to an extent. But, if you shut down every person that comes your way or at stay negative regarding the topic to the very minumum, that's just taking it too far. That's just my opinion though.

 

I told you before & I'll tell you again, I'm going to do everything I can to make this happen, with or without your help. If you want to help me out, great, can always use more knowledge & more help but I AM NOT going to waste my time proving myself to you. I have more important things to do. Either help or don't.

Originally posted by CortoCG

I also take you're new on this of researching stuff, so, read first and learn. Then talk a lot.

Is english your first language? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm being dead serious, is english your first language?

 

I didn't say "I know this" or "I know that", I said "here's the gameplan so far" - that's it, you are (yet again) taking what I am saying out of context.

 

I realize that you & I got off on a bad foot but this is precisely why. Things are taken out of context, some of which implies disrespect, & some of us seem to be so cocky that it appears rude to others. As for me, I'm not trying to be cocky here, I just have confidence in my ability to make things happen when you put enough effort into something.

 

Just because you might check something out & then I check it out again afterwards, that doesn't imply that I think you are not capable of handling whatever situation, it just means that I am being thorough & double checking (& sometimes even triple checking) things out because that is just the professional thing to do IMO. Now this was just an example, not something that actually happened. I only brought it up because I just get the impression that this is the type of mentality you hold when dealing with me.

Originally posted by CortoCG

...I'm gonna make a skelly suitable for animations for JK3...

Cool I apreciate the help. With the workload I have I can really use it but if the skeleton isn't in public use under OJP terms, then I'm not using it for the AnimPack. I think why is pretty obvious.

 

Thanks for the feedback folks, I'll post again when I have time.

[Emon]

Originally posted by Marker0077 There's all kinds of wannabes & thieves out there man, you need to protect your work.[/b]

 

Of course. But the rapidly growing open source community has millions of contributors and all have their work protected. I was more thinking along the lines of the, "MINE MINE MINE I WANT FAME!" attitude a lot of people have, although I don't think that applies to ASk.

[Marker0077]

Unless he registers it at the copyright office or has something else to prove the work is his, it's his word against whomever else.

 

In all reality, I do agree with you & do not think it will be a problem but it's ASk's call & program & I can understand him wanting to protect it. He allows us to use it so I really don't see the what the big deal is either way.

 

As far as "MINE MINE" goes, the only person that fits in that category is Lee Oattes (just my opinion). I can understand why all the other coders do not have their mod being open source, at least the ones I personally know. Take Chosen One for example, he let his mod be public open source & he had a few different people remove his name from the code & try & pass it off as their own. Some of which added abusive commands, then you have people who may use the code but give no credit which is almost the same thing.

 

Look at it this way, what good is having the code be open source going to do? ASk is pretty much already going to let us use his code (at least I would think he would if someone asked him), so what's the point? For him to not release it publically, he protects his work work a little better & those who want to use it can. That's a win win if you ask me.

[Emon]

I understand and respect his decision, I was only speaking in general.

[ASk]

FYI, the first stable version of GLAMerge, that actually would work IF the skeleton was right (it was the same one as the version of it in the unedited version of the howto post) - did I confuse you yet? - had the source publically available for about 6 months.

 

Guess how many downloads of it I got? yes, that's right, about 3.

 

So I figured it out, if nobody wanted it, I would not bother with it anymore. Those that ask me for it, the ones that still are involved in modding and can use the source code to benefit from it, get it. I.E Wudan, Razor Ace, Tchouky.

[razorace]

Well, those that do always outnumber those that want.

[Marker0077]

Most people want to use the mods, not make them. Sure they may say they are interested in making them at times & even genuinely mean it, until they find out what the workload is like.

 

Besides, explaining how to do every little thing can be more frustrating & time consuming than just doing it yourself.

 

If a person really wants to make something happen, they'll try & figure things out for themselves & then only ask about the things they are stumped on, or they may just ask you about a topic if they happen to be speaking with you at the time.

[keshire]

Marker0077 , I think your doing a good job of alienating the people who could help you out. They have no interest in making new animations obviously and would only be helping as a favor. You should treat it as such.

 

Other than that. Feel free to email me at jmattison@scottrade.com and maybe we can swap notes.

[Marker0077]

I wouldn't say I'm "alienating" anyone, I have no problem with helping people out but I get people who want to take up my time with super n00b stuff like "how do I make a skin" & again, I have no problem with helping even if it's that but I just don't want to waste my time going into detail with such common place knowledge. There are forums for this kind of thing.

 

The only thing that really gets on my nerves are people who don't try. They just want someone to tell them everything - screw that. Try & figure it out on your own & if you are still having problems, then let me know. This is the #1 reason why I say "do you know of some place that I can go to learn about this stuff" when I talk to people whom have more knowledge in whatever area than I do.

 

Anyways, as far as swapping notes goes, sounds good. Right now I'm having a terrible time with trying to figure out how the 2k/XP networking system works. The server is 2k & it's real old (100 mhz, which is why it's a server & not a workstation) & the other clients are XP & well... lets just say it's not going as smoothly as I originally anticipated. The point is my time is really pre-occupied at the moment. I want to go back to modding but what can I do, we have to have working workstations. If any of you have experience with 2k/XP networking & are willing to help, please let me know.

 

As for Corto's JK3 skeleton, is that going to be released under OJP terms (submitted to OJP)?