Qui-Gon vs Ben Kenobi

[Johch Ai'oki]

He's one of very few Jedi (save the ones that were in the EU stories) mainly because he was hiding. Now, if Obi-Wan was still reckless as he was as a Padawan Learner at times, he'd probably face Vader, and probably would have lost too! He survived the purge because he hid, like how Anakin/Vader's offspring (Luke and Leia) were hidden from him.

Also, Obi-Wan is a master of Form III. Of course he could use other forms but if he did, Vader's Form V of Lightsaber Combat would've been Obi-Wan's death much earlier than what it was since Obi-Wan, in his final lightsaber battle, used Form III. It was still hopeless because Form III is mainly a defensive combat designed to block blaster shots. He may have been nearly undefeatable because of this, but he couldn't have defeated Vader using it either.

Now, Dooku, yes, was a master of Form II, which is why he easily fended off both Obi-Wan and Anakin one on one. I wouldn't be suprised if he took both on at the same time and still won. Don't underestimate the power of Sith Lords, but also don't underestimate the power of Jedi Masters.

Now, Obi-Wan was out of practice at the time. Sure he could use the force still in Episode IV, but if he had using it during the time he was hiding, Vader would have gotten him earlier. If you pit Qui-Gon in the Jedi's prime (Episode 1) against Obi-Wan in the Jedi's worst days (Episode 4), who would win? The Jedi Master who kept on using his abilities (Qui-Gon)? Or the one who hid from Vader and extremely rarely revealed himself as an old and out-of-practice Jedi Master (Obi-Wan "Old Ben" Kenobi)?

But then, I'm beginning to think this is more of a contest of who you like more and what movie you like more: Old Ben/Alec Guiness/Episode 4? Or Qui-Gon/Liam Neeson/Episode 1? I think the factors are more out of topic than anyone believes. People like Maul more than... Say, Exar Kun or Dooku mainly because Exar Kun's less known and Dooku's an old man, and Maul's a young, tatooed and horned Zabrak in all black with a longer Saberstaff than Exar Kun's (whose shorter saber staff had blue saber color blades rather than red), and looked good when fighting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. He also was portrayed mysteriously, adding to his "coolness." So I can understand how this debate can get off-topic easily.

[dark jedi 8]

well since obi wan beats anakins as a ripe in his prime jedi knight and turns him into vader and since vader is more machine than man and could probably not move as well as he could say when he was that prime jedi knight. if obi wan were to face vader say a year after he turned into vader, obi should have one based on the statistics. but he knew he would never get the chance cus palpatine was keeping this new instrument of death under close watch and if obi ever tried to kill vader then palpatine probably would have hunted down and killed obi wan. and if obi-wan's dead then their is no one to guide luke into becoming the next order of jedi. b/c GL meant for their to be only the 2 (none of this E.U. crap) jedi left and since yoda was stuck on degobah and obi-wan on tatooine w/the new hope of the jedi order, obi had to hide. yeah princess leia had the force but it was not developed enough as luke's was to become a jedi plus tatooine is a little more remote than alderaan. what i dont understand is how vader forgot about his home planet tatooine and never found obi wan their. unless he did that on purpose thinking obi wan would be no match for him?

[Johch Ai'oki]

Originally posted by dark jedi 8

well since obi wan beats anakins as a ripe in his prime jedi knight and turns him into vader and since vader is more machine than man and could probably not move as well as he could say when he was that prime jedi knight. if obi wan were to face vader say a year after he turned into vader, obi should have one based on the statistics. but he knew he would never get the chance cus palpatine was keeping this new instrument of death under close watch and if obi ever tried to kill vader then palpatine probably would have hunted down and killed obi wan. and if obi-wan's dead then their is no one to guide luke into becoming the next order of jedi. b/c GL meant for their to be only the 2 (none of this E.U. crap) jedi left and since yoda was stuck on degobah and obi-wan on tatooine w/the new hope of the jedi order, obi had to hide. yeah princess leia had the force but it was not developed enough as luke's was to become a jedi plus tatooine is a little more remote than alderaan. what i dont understand is how vader forgot about his home planet tatooine and never found obi wan their. unless he did that on purpose thinking obi wan would be no match for him?

 

Right now I'm still trying to comprehend what you're trying to say... Let me get this straight: "Obi-Wan could have beaten Vader when Anakin had just become Vader because obviously Obi-Wan defeats Anakin in a struggle (That's an Ep. 3 spoiler I knew for a while, but for the sake of others who don't want to be spoiled, lets stop the repeated spoiling right now)... *reads on* ...And George meant for to only be two Jedi left and then you insulted EU (I like EU BTW, I hope that wasn't an attempt at insulting my taste in SW material)... I'll stop here.

 

You're obviously using Obi-Wan from Episode 3. Obi-Wan in Episode 4 is obviously different from Obi-Wan in Episode 3, as there's a decade of difference. If Obi-Wan had hid in a better place, perhaps he could have practiced over the years rather than sit around and not use the Force, hiding himself from Vader and Palpatine.

 

Now, we're talking about the old hermit Old Ben, who wasn't a hermit, but an out-of-practice Jedi Knight, much different from the Prequel Obi-Wan, eh? We're not talking about theroies as to if this or that happens/happened, Obi-Wan would be better/worse, etc. We're talking about putting Old Ben Kenobi from Episode 4 against Qui-Gon Jinn from Episode 1. Whether you like EU or not is not important, I use some that seems to work in this matter, like lightsaber form combat, such as the agressive Form II, or Form III which is defensive, etc.

 

This clearly indicates (although I could be wrong) you probably like Old Ben over Qui-Gon and are using such biasism. Personally I like Alec Guiness and Liam Neeson both, but we're talking about giving them their lightsabers, and putting them in a situation where they would duel to the death. I may like Qui-Gon a lot, but I'm still taking an unbiased position on two cool Jedi. We're not talking Star Wars Infinities that explains "What if Obi-Wan had been hiding more cleverly and had been able to practice using the Force?" or something like that. As I keep saying, we're talking Episode 4 Old Ben Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn.

 

Obi-Wan during Episode 4 may have experience, but his lack of practice using the Force and his skill with a lightsaber weakened. This is natural. Lets say you play baseball as a kid, and were good with hitting home-runs. Lets say after that you very rarely play baseball for ten years. Would you believe you would have the same skill? Most likely you would have forgotten and in most cases you would strike out. Another example is video games, and how to play this or that. An simulative air combat game that involves dogfights with TIEs or X-Wings (well this is an SW forum right? Or if you want a more realistic example: Japanese Zero vs. American Mustang). Although not necessarily, but in most cases this would differ from an FPS. Lets say my fighter game gets old and I decided to play an FPS game for a while which I would play frequently, using a mouse with keyboard rather than all keyboard. When I go back to playing my fighter game, nine times out of ten I would be inexperienced all over again and examples of such would be that I would have been shot down frequently.

 

This can apply to Old Ben Kenobi here. Now, Qui-Gon, when we meet him, lives during the prime of the Jedi, in Episode 1, constantly accepting missions, teaching a padawan learner the ways of the Jedi, and how to use the Force, etc. So there's no time for him to relax for a decade yet. He's using his skill in a constant rate that it's natural for him to be quick and graceful in his work as a Jedi Master, yet skilled in the ways of the force.

 

Realistically, and in an unbiased opinon, would practice win over lack of practice?

[dark jedi 8]

i was just commenting on your post and it didn't have much to do w/the topic. you also have to bring up the fact that back in 77, thier was no computer genteration or highly qualified stunt doubles so basically the obi wan/vader fight made both old ben's and vaders skills look pretty bad and vader had been practicing all those years. that aside, you mentioned earlier that if the headstrong obi wan went up against vader before ANH and after ep 3? then obi would have lost. but given his skills in defeating anakin, (which has been speculated for 20 years by fans and not really a spoiler) i believe he would have been able to defeat vader but at the same time revealing himself to the emperor and no matter how good obi is i dont think he could stand up to the emperor. and if obi died, that would leave only yoda left, and yoda knew that in order to ensure that the jedi would live again, vader's offspring had to live and fulfill vader's part of the prophecy and that at the same time, obi wan had to train them or when they were ready bring them to yoda for training.

but my post really had nothing to do w/the old ben and qui gon fight. but really i dont think these too could fight to the death cus at one time they were both honorable jedi who believed that killing was wrong. so to pit them against each other is a trivial question in and of itself but if they were pitted against each other i still say old ben's perfect use and knowledge of form III would not let qui gon get in a serious blow. in all honesty i think it'd be a stalemate. if you pitted vader (ep IV) against qui gon, who would win? i say vader. and obi wan fended off vader w/ his form III yet could not kill him, so it ended in a stalemate. until obi wan allowed the dark lord to kill hem which allowed luke to escape and also make obi-wan a more instrumental and powerful help to luke in his training. i do remember reading somewhere that qui-gon was about 60 years old in EP.I and "old ben" is about 57 in Ep. 4. ( yet qui gon was played by a 40 year old actor and ben was played by a 70 year old actor.) so lucas had his limits back in 77.

and to clear up i was not slandering the E.U. or your views of it i was just making the point that GL meant for their to be 2 jedi left to make sure vaders offspring got trained and brought a new race of guardians to the galaxy. but if their was more jedi (like the e.u. states) that would somewhat falsify the movie. and make the jedi's situation not seem ito be such a dire need. i just think it works better for the movie plot if thier was only the 2 left. IMHO.

[Johch Ai'oki]

Well, no matter how much we speculate, it's irrelevant. I realize that now. What's the name of this thread? Old Ben vs. Qui-Gon?

 

It wasn't a stalemate... Obi-Wan let Vader win as it was a battle to the death, and Obi-Wan died.

We're setting feelings and ethics aside, exception for the ethics they put on when they fight an opponent that's a threat to them. If it makes you feel any better, lets say they're a little brainwashed, and placed together so that they can kill each other. It wouldn't end in a stalemate because it would be a fight to the death, and that their minds are controlled. Why am I typing this?

Well, you're bringing up irrelevant things from seeing who'd win by skill, and I think you still will even if I said for you to let go of all of their ethics except the ethics they use when combatting an opponent using a lightsaber and the power of the Force. So I figured the rediculous "brainwash" idea might help you get the idea.

As for your explination, yeah, it might work, low budget, not doing a whole lot of stunts, etc. But still, that is what they brought onscreen on how they portrayed Obi-Wan and Darth Vader when they dueled. Even if it was supposed to be portrayed as if they were fast and energetic like when Liam Neeson portraying Qui-Gon went one-on-one against Ray Park portraying Darth Maul. The thing is, if it didn't seem energetic onscreen, it's canonical (movie-wise) enough to be true. Old Ben and Vader over the ten years became a little weaker (Ben being even weaker than Vader. Otherwise, why would Vader say, "Your powers are weak, old man!"?), it was as George Lucas stated (when he was seeking a good and energetic type of swordfighting in Episode 1), that we didn't see real Jedi at work, we've seen an old man against a cyborg and a young boy (almost an adult) that learned from this old man, who looked waay out of practice onscreen.

Now... Who'd win this speculative fight to the death? Old Ben Kenobi? Or Qui-Gon?

[dark jedi 8]

this is re-enstating facts but obi wan was a master of form III, now it would not let him deal a death blow to qui gon no would it let him get killed. (unless either of them ran out of energy). and qui gon was a form IV practitioner, which for his age and him being a jedi master is not a good form IMO, this form tends to leave holes in defense and thier is a possability of obi wan exploiting those defensive holes. but who's to say qui gon didn't know any other form, he might have but it isn't shown on screen. so unless one of them has a heart attack or obi wan recognizes a stalemate and decides to become one w/ the force where he is more powerful and (possibly destroy qui gon from their?) and the possability of obi wan using the same form IV (but to a lesser extent of course) that he used to kill maul in order to deal a killing blow is not out of the question either...

[Codja X]

New Topic: dark jedi 8 v Johch Ai'oki?

 

Lets look at the track record......

[sith_master2000]

Qui-Gon could win easy against Old Ben Kenobi, he's weak and jittery but Qui-Gon is young and strong!

[Prism]

Originally posted by Handorin

see, Qui-gon couldve kill maul. He had the oppertunity when he fell, but he didnt take it. If he didnt die Anaken might of not been able to be a Jedi, therefore, giving Ben less of a chance on Dooku, and Anaken wouldnt be able to bring balence to the force if he went to the good side. You just gotta think about those things.

 

I agree...He could have just stuck his saber right through maul when he kicked him down

[Sabretooth]

Undoubtedly Qui-Gon. The Real Question is, who could win between Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon against Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker. A tag-team match, perhaps? :D

[FiEND_138]

VS. Old Ben-- Qui-Gon

VS. Young Obi-Wan-- Hmmmm.... Obi

[Johch Ai'oki]

Originally posted by Darth-Bane

I agree...He could have just stuck his saber right through maul when he kicked him down

 

If I hadn't said this before, I'll say it now:

 

Qui-Gon tried to kill Maul in any way possible, and Maul tried to kill Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in any way possible while keeping himself alive. The thing is: Darth Maul's foot got in Qui-Gon's way! Maul wasn't that weak or otherwise Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan would've killed Maul quite quickly in the Theed Hangar before Maul retreated into the Generator Room.

 

Originally posted by FiEND_138

VS. Old Ben-- Qui-Gon

VS. Young Obi-Wan-- Hmmmm.... Obi

 

How'd you base that? Even if Obi-Wan was young and energetic, he was still a little reckless Padawan, almost like Anakin was. Even just before he became a Jedi Knight (Ep. 1). He's also a Form III Lightsaber Combat master, meaning he's more of a defensive. He might have known a little more of Form IV or V to be a little offensive, I.E. Splitting Maul's hilt in two. One mistake was not taking advantage of Maul's immediate shock of that and stabbing him, even though Obi-Wan eventually killed him, it costed him his own lightsaber. But as I said, Obi-Wan was a little reckless. I.E. Letting his anger get the best of him a bit, otherwise he wouldn't be falling down into that shaft and hanging on for his life.

But it's a tough case if it were young Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Qui-Gon. It would require deep thought, but enough of that. Unless someone starts up a thread of that, that is.

[FiEND_138]

^^^ Heh, I just flipped a coin actually, notice the hmm, that was me tossing the coin. Too evenly matched & that was the only way I could think of to answer myself

[dddds]

QUI-GON RULLEZ!!!

[Corax]

They are srota equla..but i think that ben would win..he's more fast! and qui gon just old

 

Corax