Saber Control Methods

[Ken Kasanagi]

I like the idea Gotaiken was proposing; using primary and secondary attack to represent strong medium and fast saber. but no the holding/tapping method thou, primary-medium/secondary-fast/primay+secondary-strong should be enough, melee attacks should b made as special moves instead.

but to add control to the sabering system you really should first make every single one of saber attack consistent. regardless of how the saber is controlled, if you want the saber combat to be skill based than you'll need to make sure that when a player apply his/her skill he/she would get the results he/she expected, which isn't the case right now. for example the system is using the keyboard to control the direction of the attack, but the mouse look also effect the direction of the saber swing. having two control over one attack makes the whole sabering system very inaccurate, eg if you opponet's doing a overhead swing while moving the mouse left or right, then suddenly the attack has horizontal range instead of just vertical, so you c you opponent doing a vertical attack, you have the skill that tells you you can counter it by strafing to the side, only to get hit b/c the attack have these horizontal range that it shouldn't have... crap i wrote too much again...what im suggesting is to make all the attacks like the light lunge, in which the direction and the movement of the attack is locked, but instead of locking the view, the player should be able to look around, like in splinter cells where the view isn't locked to where sam fisher is looking

[razorace]

So, basically, you are suggesting that we lock the mouse view because it lets you move an attack into a player? what the crap?! Would you like us to remove the movement keys as well since they can be used to do the same thing?!

 

Secondly, please use paragraphs. They make things easier on the eyes.

[Ken Kasanagi]

razorace:

no not locking the mouse view...just make it so the mouse view doesn't affect the model, just imagine doing a backslash, and during the move, the player can move the camera angles via the mouse but the model doesn't actually spin with the camera

[razorace]

Oh, ok. Now that makes more sense.

 

The under lying issue is the way the damage is dealt. Ideally you could have it be based on off impact speed alone but we might not be able to get accurate impact surface data for the same reasons why the hit detection is weird.

[AJL]

My opinions on saber...

 

1. There should be only two (normal) saber styles (Fast/Strong)

(Blue/Yellow) and that yellow should be little bit faster than it is

normally (not all moves but some which looks too slow for that

weightless lightsaber...)

 

2. Saber should always make lots of damage... No matter if you

use fast style attacks, strong attacks or just hit with idle saber.

Different styles/moves should mostly affect to strength of the

attack... (how easy it is to block it...)

 

3. There should be no unblockable moves... Powerfull attacks

should have higher change to knock away the enemy saber, or

disarm or knockdown the guy...

 

4. Saber moves should be pretty fast but otherwise the combat

should be slowed down... After normal blocking both attackers

and defenders sabers should usually returns back to idle and

maybe some small delay sometimes before either guy can make

new attack moves... (but when you succeed to send enemy to

knockaway anim or such then you should be able to continue

directly to somekind of special finishing move...)

 

5. Long special saber moves should be either removed or made

so that you can stop any time...

[da_chimp]

doesnt ny body here play console games in which combos and stuff can be created in push simple button combos and can make for awsome looking fights only problem i can see with a system like that is you would need an extra button for blocking preferrably on a mouse(this is presuming most people use 2 button wheel mice)

 

left click=blue style

right click = medium style

shift as block

 

and combos could be stuff like

shift,left,left,right,left

 

that would make the game more interactive more enjoyable and stuff but would drasticly change code

 

[Gotaiken]

I whole hartedly agree with the both of you, we need to make this game more skillful and fast at the same time.

 

Sadly however, I dont believe that this is the direction that the creators want to go with this mod.

[Dbl90]

Well, now that I finnaly have a functioning comp again...I just realy never got around to fixing it, I assume I should be posting again now that I can access the net in places other than in public libaries.

 

I've liked most of the ideas in the thread up to now and let me reiterate my views. First of all the notion the harder you hit with a saber the more damage it does is somwhat crazy. If a saber can easily cut through metal, like a knife though butter, why can't it do the same with a person.

 

Since everyone has such a problem with implementing a system that allows use of all styles simultaniously, why not totally change the systems so all moves do the same amount of damage, are possibly just as fast, but from style to style they are differant.

 

Another possibility (I don't know how impossible it is) is that block can be implemented as somthing within a style. So even though blue does less damage it will get a higher bonus to block because it is faster.

 

Also, I'd like to propose "Death to the Katas" or atleast a great change to them. I find them to have limited use in a non laming context. Maybe what is used for a kata can become block and the seperate block button can become somthing else. Such as a small combat "hop" rather than a rediculously large jump.

 

Ultimately I think the saber system can be greatly improved and I'm glad to be back helping. Hopefully my comp won't die at random again.

[da_chimp]

as far as im concerned it needs to require more skill and speed to saber combat the mouse sabering could be good if there were some limitations but, i dont think Keshire and razor could be stuffed animating and coding that but it could be useful and a fair bit easyier for blocking

 

i personally prefere console sword games cause there hard and fast till you work'em out but then they get easy but still fast

 

here's my new idea

one button does vertical the other horezontal strike together plus direction = diagonal the direction of mouse movement. this could also be inluenced by the players movement at the time i.e moving forward vertical attack does the chop the movement backwards does lunge or vise-versa. i can see a problem with this which is that youd have to have a moves list of some description and it would be difficult to code but animation wise it would need very little, maybe a few extra moves

 

anywhich way the combat turns out as long as it is faster and more player intensive the sabercombat system will be better that it is now(come on raven what were you thinking, a mash fest... thanks for a great game)

 

Everybody keep up the good work and ideas and OJP will be the best mod for a long time

 

 

 

 

THE MODDING COMMUNITY OWNS YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gotaiken]

griever i was thinking about that, i think that that would be the best setup for the type of game this is

[da_chimp]

well it's not the best of ideas it still needs alot of refining to the point where it could be awsome, wise man once say "great minds think alike"

 

saber blocking- altho i havent tested it cause my cop of JA went all currupt n stuff and therefor dont no how it works at the moment my suggestion for it is to have it so it blocks the way you turn you mouse while holding block

 

Saber OFFENSE- warrior once said "the best defence is a good offense" and "you dont fight for glory you fight to win" .... ideas to improove previous idea

-remove gay spinny attacks

-add more reasonable attacks

-block-counter attacks

-COMBOS!!!!!! not katas

-more stringability

-melee in saber combat, i.e get to close elbow

-cheep shots

-ability to stun enemys

-new animations

-constant damage:sabers cut just about anything and therefor are leathal

-no run run run in combat or huge jumps cause that = suiside it combat

 

thats all i can think of for now

[Ken Kasanagi]

being a hardcore console game addict, I like the idea that griever has, it would be a good idea if there is a movelist of sort in JA, outlining each moves adv/disadv, but currently each individual saber attack in JA, apart from the sideswipes which covers a larger horizontal range, has little to no differences...

most of the time you'll just execute a sabermove simply because you just happen to be walking that direction, the move itself has little importance.

 

on a side note, I'll like to know how JA actually handles the inputs of different moves; is it by the actual key strokes or the veleocity and direction the player is actually travelling, regardless of key strokes?? eg there are occasions where while Im walking up a slope and as I press forward and attack I end up doing a DFA instead of a normal overhead chop, even though I didn't press jump. and if thats the case would it mean inputs such as double tapping one direction would not be valid in JA??

[razorace]

JKA doesn't have a key buffer so things like double tapping would be complicated to impliment.

 

Secondly, I don't agree with this current line of thinking. It's way too much like a fighter game. Like it or not, your combos are basically katas just with more complicated button presses.

 

What's the point of the two button control system, what are you gaining that you don't have with the keyboard directional system other than the fact that it's more complicated?

[da_chimp]

razor i have to disagree with you on the fact that combos are more difficult katas because a kata has set moves a combo is just a combination of moves and are rearly the same combination for 2 different people a kata is the same for everyone i was probly not to specific in the way i said it i actually ment reasonable chainage of moves not the insain chainage it has now

 

as for key buffering JA does have it but not for directions or at least im pretty sure it does because it has it for wall jump and i think some attacks

 

yes my ideas are inclined toward fighting games but that is only because the fighting games style is used in console 3d action platform games for example look at ninja Gaiden which uses a similar control style as i have outlined

 

the 2 button control give you a larger human eliment and stops most acidental moves for example your running at you enemys who are close together you hit the horezontal attack to hit them all or the vertical to hit just 1 mostlikey killing him.

 

i take into account that no gets payed for what they are doing and therefor probly up to doing extreem amounts of work on anything but those of the modding community like razor keshire azyme and Renegade just to name a few they work as if they get payed for it some even spend money on it , what im trying to say is that people like that deserve alot of respect which they get but they need more, i thank you for making a good game better and spending you free time working for people who show you little respect for that i appaude you

[razorace]

Well, keep in mind that just making something more complicated and difficult doesn't make it better. I could make the most difficult game ever but there'd be no fun in that.

 

Anyway, I object to the concept of combos in the lightsaber combat game. It just doesn't make sense, either from a realistic or movie standpoint, to be able to continue beating on someone with a lightsaber by using a "combo".

 

Secondly, combos aren't partially fair in most implimentations simply because the other player can't do jack after the combo has been started. This is fine when playing a stupid computer opponent but against other players it turns the game into a contest of who can land the first strike in their combos. It's very cheesy.

 

Also, thanks for the appraise.

[Ken Kasanagi]

ok i agree with the objection to combos, most 3rd person game involving combos will usually lead to a boring hack'n slash affair. but i think the line of thinking that we r having now is to make saber combat more moves oriented. fighting game engines more or less out line each attack as a indiviual move where as JA more or less blurs everything together.

 

and yea u said it grevious these modders deserves much more respect than they r given and i apologizes for me and everyone else in this forum who dont know sqaut about modding, mapping, scripting or skinning but still rant on and on about our so call ideas and expect u to follow them

[da_chimp]

im kinda running out of ideas that are plausable for jedi academy so hears more on a previous idea

 

leftclick = horezontal rightclick = vertical both = diagonal

all saberstyles swing the same speed but the windup time is longer for red stance shorter for blue, sabers are deadly i.e you dont block you lose alot of health possibly death

stances from most useful to least: red, yellow, blue the more useful a saber stance it should be more expensive ie red cost 2 blue cost 20 or something similar

 

saber defence more expensive in general so you cant have full attack and defence with saber so gunners can kill you

 

more saber offense = more chainability but less defence

more saber defence = more defence against gunners but less against saber users

 

hope you like this better razor

[Kyle Kelasheski]

Hello All,

 

Just downloaded OJP for the first time, and intend to try it out very shortly. I'm quite interested to see how the lightsaber combat system works out, as I'm extremely keen on using a combat system that is highly cinematic, meaning that it's accurate to what we've seen in the FILMS.

 

First, for those who don't know me (which is probably most of you), a brief introduction to the work I've done for various modding communities. I've made numerous idea contributions that were seriously considered/implemented to the following mods: Obi-Wan TC for JK1 (not yet released), and ForceMod 3 for JKJA. I've done simple coding/created simple mods for the following: Infiltration TC for UT, and ForceMod 3. I did a TREMENDOUS amount of drawing, graphic & map designs for the Obi-Wan TC. I have done extensive alpha and beta testing for the O-W TC and FM 3. There's more that I’ve done, but that's the core of it so far. I'm saying all of this just so it's known that while my skills for the “hands on” modifying of games is limited, I try to think things through thoroughly, and I wholeheartedly support modders and the hard work they do for free simply because they love something so much that they want to share it.

 

Now, that that’s out of the way, I’ve spent several hours combing through the forums, and have yet to come across an extensive exploration on the concept of implementing the effects of exhaustion and fatigue on game play. I’m basically going to post what I’ve sent to Dynasty, who’s the team leader for the O-W TC. Do with it what you will. I think it could have exciting and very cinematic possibilities. How the details spelled out below correlate to what I think we see in the films is explained near the end, as a summary. The numbers and figures I use were ones that I calculated for JK1, and may very well need revising for JKA. Nevertheless, here’s what I pitched to Dynasty…

 

 

 

Death by Exhaustion Saber System (DESS): The longer a Jedi fights, the more tired he becomes, and this affects a Jedi’s ability to fight effectively. Eventually, this ever-increasing state of energy depletion starts affecting their ability to defend themselves. Thus the longer one fights, the lower one’s ability becomes to parry attacks. Game play wise, exhaustion can be delivered to an opponent by “hitting” them with the saber. Note: the subject’s body is not depicted as being actually hit, but rather a successful exhaustion dealing blow is rendered by an animation that shows the opponent’s weapon being batted aside, or their entire body staggers back a few feet (or more, depending on the level of exhaustion; they could even be knocked to the ground) by the force dealt by the attacker’s successful swing or thrust. Saber locks can be used as a sure sign that one of the two combatants is about to receive some energy depletion—the loser of the saber lock WILL have energy drained from his body. Every successful shove back results in a drop of parrying ability: a less powerful success results in a drop of 5% parrying ability in the opponent, and a more successful blow renders a drop of 10%, that is unless the attacker is able to regain some strength by avoiding direct combat for 6 seconds, at which point one “level” of exhaustion is removed due to the Jedi rejuvenating himself during the break from the blistering combat. An experienced combatant will take advantage of the opponent’s temporary weakness, and press his attack. This will either result in a parry, another exhaustion dealing blow, or a hit that will eliminate the opponent by decapitation.

 

The player has an exhaustion level meter on his HUD. Note that this meter only starts to show energy depletion after the player’s saber is swung or parries an opponent’s saber. From that point forward until there is a break in the swinging/parrying, an invisible clock counts down from 3 seconds; the result being that for every 3 seconds of constant engagement, the player’s exhaustion meter drops by 1 unit. For every 4 units that are counted off, the player’s parrying ability drops by 5%. If a player can remain absolutely still, recovery time is halved to 3 seconds a unit, otherwise it takes 6 seconds of none-engagement time to regain a unit that was lost (this assumes that the Jedi is still running, jumping, and dodging). Every time a successful exhaustion-dealing blow strikes the player’s body, the meter drops by 4 or 8 units (based on how strong the blow was), resulting in a parrying decrease of either 5% or 10%. If the recovery time slows game play too much (due to the player waiting around to regain their strength), then the system could only be applied to fighting only other Force Users.

 

Other effects of exhaustion: When the player’s energy level reaches 25%, the screen begins to move in a rhythmic “out-of-breath” pattern, and movement is reduced by 15%. When the energy level reaches 10% the Jedi’s movement is reduced a further 25%, and a red filter strobes over the screen, mimicking the effects of a body desperate for oxygen. This would have a tremendous psychological effect on the players, for they’ll know that they’re doomed if they don’t find time to recover soon.

 

Also, the more exhausted a dueler gets, the greater the effects of further energy draining blows. For example, weak “strikes” result in saber bats that will initially move aside the enemy’s saber by a foot (allowing the enemy to recover his stance in a ¼ of a second, and has no effect on parrying), but when the enemy’s energy level is at 75%, his saber is batted aside by several feet (at which point it takes a half second to regain one’s posture, and for the following second parrying is reduced by 5%). When a saber bat is delivered to an enemy at 50% energy, his arm swings back in a wide arc, requiring ¾ second to regain posture, and for the next second parrying is reduced by 10%. At 25% strength, a saber bat will fling the saber out of the target’s hand—casting it away in a random direction by several feet, and the opponent cannot parry until he finds his saber and Force Pulls it back to him. Likewise, strong “hits” will initially only shove the target’s body back a couple of feet and with no effects on parrying, but if his energy level is at 75% then the shove sends the target’s body back 4-5 feet, and he’ll need ½ a second to regain a fighting posture, and for the following second parrying ability is reduced by 10%. At 50% strength, the target’s body is shoved back the several feet mentioned above, only this time his body stumbles (requiring a full second to regain his posture), and reducing his parrying for the following second by 20%. At 25% strength, the target’s body is shoved back 4-5 feet, and will collapse to the ground, at which point parrying is halved its current value, and it takes 1.5 seconds to stand back up to a fighting posture.

 

Force Healing will restore only ¼ of the energy that was lost. Resting time will have to make up for the remainder.

 

I think that there are numerous strengths to the Death by Exhaustion Saber System. First, if one wants the game to appear to be as cinematic as possible, this would be a rewarding solution. Throughout the films, saber battles have not been ones of blades strictly tapping and pulling away from each other, but rather the opponents actively pursue a tactic of forcing their enemy’s saber in a direction that will yield them an opening. The idea of “one hit, one kill (as we see it in the films)” would be preserved, yet the player would be given awards for their combat prowess throughout the duel by being able to visibly determine that they have put their opponent at a physical disadvantage. Since this disadvantage is temporary, and not total, it would increase the adrenaline rush to press forward to try and eliminate the enemy. This, in turn, would lead to the player to having to constantly assess just how much risk he wants to take in pressing home his advantage, for even though his enemy may be caught off guard and growing tired, so too is the player similarly tired. If he gets too careless, or overconfident, the extra risk he takes may yet result in his death. The opponent does not die from multiple hits (as it is in JK now), but rather from fighting to a degree of physical weakness that then opens him up to the one actual killing stroke. A dramatic saber lock would be a sure sign that one of the opponents is about to lose some major strength, and tension would be built waiting to see who the (pre-determined) winner is. I tried describing to you in the past about the “saber following” effect that we see in the films, but when I played the duels in slow motion for yet another analysis, the real nature of what was occurring became apparent to me—throughout the duels the opponents are trying to influence where their enemy’s saber is going. Again, the beauty of this system is that it delivers multiple, believable rewards to the player because whenever a semi-successful “hit” is made on the enemy, there is a corresponding animation that delivers satisfying information to the player to act upon. Of course, all of these exhaustion-dealing blows increase the probability that a death-dealing blow will hit the target.

 

It also forces the player to seriously consider energy management. Saber dueling is no longer “get behind, hack, and then slash,” but a rather delicate balance of maintaining enough strength combined with enough skill to defeat the enemy. An exciting proposition, to say the least!

 

It may not even be necessary to have shields at all with this system. A notion that some might perceive to be fairly artificial and forced anyway (when was the last time we saw a living creature in SW running around with an energy vest? That’s what I thought.). Instead, the shield powerups could be replaced with food rations (something that one WOULD find on an enemy), and these would help replenish the Jedi’s energy (by the way, I found out that those little shiny cylinders the Jedi wear on their belts are edible high-energy bars, and once I read that, my head started spinning with the possibilities…). In the big picture, I think that this system adds a tremendous amount of satisfying game play and a tremendous amount of cinematic accuracy at the same time.

 

 

 

That's most of it. What do you think?

[Codja X]

I'll add my penny's worth as i've had an interest in the saber system for a while now.

 

I like kusanagi's idea about "padlocking" your opponents - it could work in a very similar fashion to the Zelda game on the n64 - a block button, an attack button and a padlock button for always keeping your in sight.

 

You'd have normal moves when not "locked" on, but you'd get a whole heap more special moves and combos when you do lock and face your opponent.

 

I like the "sidestepping" idea as well in a previous post. When not locked you'd move normally - this should make for a more technical fight rather than the barely controllable randomness that is the current saber system.

[Ken Kasanagi]

errrr.... I've had dat padlock idea awhile ago... but now i aint so sure about it...

the locking idea do sound good, but it really doesn't do much in terms of improving the game play; all it does is remove more control from the player and let the targeting be automated.

[Khier]

People, people, people. I'm going to throw out a little ol' saying here: Keep It Simple Stupid. Now I'm not saying any of you are stupid, but I think most of the ideas presented here are just too damn.... overwhelming and you're all pretty optimistic that the design will be presented exactly how you imagine it if it were to be done in this mod.

 

Personally, I LIKE Raven's saber combat system, it has enormous amounts of potential. They just kind of forgot to polish it and stuff.

 

What I'd just really like to see are better animations for the current saber styles. When I first experienced the combat in JO, I was thrilled and astonished by how "cool" it was, of course, that novelty wore off in due time but it was still addictive enough to keep me playing multiplayer right through to JA's release in which I switched to JA, of course. However, I have increasingly found that the animations are just.... rather putrid (particularly staff and duals, ewwww. (and don't even get me started on the katas and 'butterfly' moves) ).

 

I'll confess that I have not played this mod yet, but what I'm hearing about OJP sounds quite good, indeed.

 

I'd like to see a more cinematic feel to the moves and swings, the kind of stylish stuff seen in the prequel movies, wrist twirls with samurai-like precision and posture.

 

I'm skeptical about how the melee system turns out, but this is only because I was horribly, TERRIBLY disappointed in how Raven handled the melee in JA (as a practitioner of Tae Kwon Do, as well as having a great interest in the martial arts, in general). Ray Park pulled off all those cool moves as Darth Maul because he KNEW what he was doing, being a highly accomplished wushu practicioner. I'm just thinking Raven pulled a bum off the streets, and told him he'd get a sandwich if he did some motion capture.

 

Hmm, I think I just put in my two cents so.......... there you go.

 

PS- I'm a little inebriated so.........pay no mind to any typing discrepancies or otherwise general drunken babble that might have possibly slipped through.

[Isoparm]

It will be interesting to see how this episode 3 jedi games uses combo system based light saber moves and choreographed moves from the man himself. What are your thoughts on how that will turn out?