Kurgan Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin The batches of Kaminoan clones are not released only every ten years. If that was true, everyone of the Jango clones would be the same age, they are clearly not. They start subsequent batches before the previous batch is finished. Sort of an assembly line kind of thing. That must be true. In the movie we see adult clones, basically ready to go (the 200,000 Lama Su mentioned), and the child clones (about Boba's age) are probably the 1,000,000 "on the way." There are fetal clones also shown in some scenes. I hazard to guess that these may not be part of the actual batch ordered by "Jedi Master Sifo Dias" but just clones they are creating in general, other orders, or research. Then again, who knows, in 10 years they may have another 1.2 million ready. Palpatine may be placing new orders now that the floodgates are open or demanding they find new ways to speed up production. However, if what I just said above is correct, we shouldn't see any new Clones ready yet in Episode III (supposedly taking place a scant 2-3 years after AOTC), unless there were other cloning facilities we didn't know about or they discovered a way to speed up production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nairb Notneb Posted October 14, 2004 Author Share Posted October 14, 2004 What we saw were mature combat ready clones about ten actual years old and no more because the order was placed ten years ago at that time. Meaning that in clone years (like dog years) they were then relatively about twenty years old. Then the younger clones that looked like Boba were about 5 years old in reality and were about 10 years old in clone years. Then, as stated by Kurgan above, we saw a third state of clone, the fetus clone, and we saw a lot of them. In ten years these will be ready for combat. That would put these ready almost halfway between AOTC and ANH meaning that by the time ANH happened those fetus clones would be about twenty years old when Luke and Han are running through the Death Star, but in clone years they will be a ripe old age of 40, seasoned veterans. Some of them could still be in service, possibly. Assuming that is that they haven't figured out a way to slow down the aging process once the clones have reached combat maturity levels, which from a soldier manufacturing point of view would be a great selling point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pho3nix Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I think i saw a "clone" facility in an old Star Wars comic years ago. I don't remember much about it, but i do remember tanks (sort of like Bacta tanks, only without water) where they had identical white faced humans inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Yoinked* Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 You mean Spaarti Clone Cubicles, or something like that, yes, in the EU, the Emporer has several cloneing things locked away in Mount TantisTM () and they are used by Thrawn, and by Joorus C'boath... -Adam G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Originally posted by Adam G You mean Spaarti Clone Cubicles, or something like that, yes, in the EU, the Emporer has several cloneing things locked away in Mount TantisTM () and they are used by Thrawn, and by Joorus C'boath... -Adam G oooh, glorius c'boath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nairb Notneb Posted October 27, 2004 Author Share Posted October 27, 2004 Yes, they have them in the EU, but the EU is not canon, exactly, but sort of. Not really. Heir to the Empire was one of the first EU books to touch on clones and it did a great job I think until it got to the clone of Luke at the end, that was not the best part of the series in my opinion. The problem with the clones in Heir to the Empire was that they were basically "instant clones" that took little time to make and were already trained. I found the technology hard to believe. If the Emperor had that type of tech, even a prototype, why would he hide it? He would have used it to mass produce an instant army. Unless there is something that I am forgetting about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shok_Tinoktin Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 You forgot that Thrawn realized he could insta-clone by using ysalimari. If you try to insta-clone otherwise, the resulting clones are insane. I believe it takes ten years to make a sane clone, but I could be mistaken (been a while since I read them). The emperor did not realize that he could offset the effect using ysalimari, so it was not especially effective for him to use the Spaarti cylinders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin You forgot that Thrawn realized he could insta-clone by using ysalimari. If you try to insta-clone otherwise, the resulting clones are insane. I believe it takes ten years to make a sane clone, but I could be mistaken (been a while since I read them). The emperor did not realize that he could offset the effect using ysalimari, so it was not especially effective for him to use the Spaarti cylinders. and what is wrong with having billions of insane storm/clone troopers??? they already seem a little wacked to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Gaarni Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Yeah, having millions of insane people with a blaster in their hand sounds like a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nairb Notneb Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 I knew I had forgotten something. And good point about having insane troops. Maybe it would improve their accuracy! You know, when Obi-Wan told Luke about these last shots being too accurate for Sand People. "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise", shhaa, right! When was the last time that he saw the old stormies shoot at something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shok_Tinoktin Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Originally posted by Nairb Notneb You know, when Obi-Wan told Luke about these last shots being too accurate for Sand People. "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise", shhaa, right! When was the last time that he saw the old stormies shoot at something? I have a theory about this. I believe that they are not innacurate. They just aim for the walls. If you notice, a lot of the walls explode when hit. This gives the stormtroopers the ability to do splash damage with a blaster. Pretty clever if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nairb Notneb Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 Clever in some cases, but when you are in combat on the forest moon of Endor and there are no walls, its a bad strategy. Just hit your targets men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Black Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Very intersting discussion I'm of no particular opinion of whether Stormtroopers are clones or not, either is fine with me. However there's something that I haven't seen mentioned so far that I thought I'd bring up. As Dex says to Obi-Wan in AOTC: "These Kaminoins are cloners... damn good ones." Or something to that regard. Dex doesn't say they're the ONLY cloners in the galaxy, they just happen to be good ones. After Palpatine takes over and beats down the Republic, there's no reason he couldn't start ordering clones from numerous other producers to fill the need for a large number of Stormtroopers. Then if Kamino resigns to help, there's still numerous other facilities willing to offer their aid. If the OT movies are any indication, Stormtroopers don't seem to be nearly as capable as their Republic counterparts... they fall to the ground dead when someone sneazes on them. Maybe this points to the fact that they are lower-quality non-Kaminoin clones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nairb Notneb Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 originaly posted by Jet Black Dex doesn't say they're the ONLY cloners in the galaxy, they just happen to be good ones. Very good point there Jet. They do seem to "degrade" as time goes on. Well, every time you make a copy of something it is not as good as the original, there are flaws, cloning may have these same principles. One solution would be to use a different template, or genetic source on a regular basis, but then you would consistently get a different type of clone, different versions, a different line. The Kaminos, from Dex's words, were obviously not the only cloners, just among the best. I'm sure Palpatine could have hired others to produce more troops. The Kaminos could have kept producing Jango clones I suppose, and these other producers could have made different troops, and given enough variety in producing companies there would have been enough different looking clones to have twenty or so different looking standard storm troopers. The Empire could have had a standard physical spec that they needed to fit, height, weight, strength, age, etc. and then the cloners just made them to order. Freaky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Originally posted by Nairb Notneb When was the last time that he saw the old stormies shoot at something? Tantive IV is the best example. But my question is this: why didn't they just clone Boba Fett instead of choosing random people? The Clone Troopers seem very superior to Stormtroopers, and Boba is almost exactly like Jango, considering they're clones. Guess it's just what happens when the clone host selection process turns more political than strategic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Black Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Is it possible that Palpy didn't even know who was chosen for the clones? He could have just said: "Go, choose someone and make a clone army." Then when Dooku is killed in Episode III, the knowledge of who the clone was died with him... and when it came time to make Stormtroopers, Palpatine just had someone else pick a (poor)host. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shok_Tinoktin Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Only problem is that the Kaminoans know that Jango is the source of their clones, so the secret does not die with Dooku. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Gaarni Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Perhaps the knowledge dies with the Kaminoans aswell. It would make sense to stage an assault on the production facilities of the Republic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Black Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Originally posted by Jan Gaarni Perhaps the knowledge dies with the Kaminoans aswell. It would make sense to stage an assault on the production facilities of the Republic. Star Wars: Battlefront put a mission on Kamino, so that could be true EDIT: This just came to mind - Who makes the vehicles/weapons/armour that the Clone Army uses? If they are made by the Kaminoans, then they are probably still around for the OT since the vehicles are similar. Whatever system produces the vehicles for the Clone Army also produces them for the Empire - I'm sure the similarities weren't a coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Okay, to clear up something, the "canon" issue is one that's debated a lot on the internet, but here's how it breaks down: Originally it was like a hierarchy. The movies were always first, then the novelisations, screenplays and radio dramas of the movies. That was the "canon" everthing official below that was "quasi-canon" or "lower canon" so that was all of the EU. Then we got "Infinities" comics and "Star Wars Tales" which were "what if" stories and speculation, so those were deemed as basically non-canon. Everything else was put in the above. About the only other "non-canon" thing we had was the Star Wars Holiday Special, but this is supposition based on Lucas supposedly saying he wanted to burn or destroy all copies of it if he could (after it flopped on its first and only public showing back in 1978). But parts of the holiday special have appeared in other official materials, so it's not all a waste. NOW, like in the last year, it's been changed to this new system: "G-Level Canon" which is everything created by Lucas himself. And then "C-Level Canon" which is everything else, all the liscensed material. Now as to the contradiction thing, there's various opinions on that. Some people say well if it contradicts a higher source, you just ignore it. Others say you must try to find a compromise or "fix" (retcon) for it. Or if you can't, then you just ignore the parts that contradict. This is a tricky process though. For example, in AOTC we have Palpatine saying that the Republic is 1,000 years old. This contradicts the Tales of the Jedi comics which have the Jedi running around in the Old Republic 5,000 years ago. This would be fine, just ignore the comic, but in another canon movie source, Obi-Wan makes it sound like the Republic has been around for "over a thousand generations." So we either have to assume that one of them is lying, that generations = 1 year (which is hard to swallow, but not impossible) or other proposed ideas (just move the Tales of the Jedi events up so that they just occur in the early days of the Republic, 1,000 years before TPM; or assume there was a "re-founding" of the Republic at some period upon which some people counted the age as only being 1,000 years like Palpy and others like Obi-Wan reconned it older by the old dating system). And there's the NJO. In the NJO, aliens from another galaxy invade the Star Wars galaxy and everyone is shocked that anything could come from outside. Supposedly there is a barrier that stops hyperdrive ships from leaving the galaxy, so nobody has done it successfully. But in AOTC we learn that apparently intergalactic travel HAS occured. The Banking Clan is called the InterGalactic Banking Clan in the official materials, which we could just say was in error, but then the Jedi Archive shows the mapping of two other galaxies besides the SW main galaxy and Kamino itself lies just outside the main galaxy, and Obi-Wan has little trouble getting there. So some would say ignore the whole NJO because the premise itself is ridiculous. Others would probably say, well maybe the barrier showed up later, or it was just a rumor, or something else happened to make people stop traveling out there. But, anyway, you see the problem... The "canon" policies are dealt with by Lucas and his companies. Obviously Lucas himself just does whatever he wants in the stories, but as far as the overall continuity is concerned, that's how it goes. Usually in these discussions we take what happens in games with a grain of salt. Sure, story elements and characters can be official, but stuff the player does can't be, and stats like how much damage a ship takes and how much ammo a gun has, that sort of thing can't work. Another problem is that a lot of lazy EU writers have used the Star Wars RPG's to get their info from. Games are made with fun, challenge and balance in mind, so they need not be accurate with regard to "real" Star Wars. But if they keep ripping off the game stats, and making them official, it causes problems. Examples: the sizes of various ships and battlestations in the games vs. estimates of their sizes in the movies; Jedi/Sith abilities, size and scope of the galaxy, etc. Where the "movies" are concerned, there's another a little confusing point. There's various versions of each movie. We have changes Lucas made to Star Wars after the first showing like cutting scenes and redubbing dialouge. Then in 1981 he adds "Episode IV: A New Hope" to it. Then we have various audio changes that occur between the theatrical releases and the VHS/Laserdisk releases. These were changed AGAIN when the "THX Enhanced Editions" were released. Then we have the Special Editions, and then the new DVD's. When AOTC was shown in theaters there were THREE VERSIONS of the film shown simultaneously, the shorter, differently framed "IMAX Experience" version (which was kick ass btw), the version shown in select Digital theaters across the country with a couple of added/edited scenes, and the regular theatrical cut that most people saw. When TPM and AOTC came out on DVD, they were further edited a bit (TPM got one new scene and AOTC got the Digital cut with a couple of very minor edits). Both movies also got "deleted scenes" with redone special effects too. Basically the question has been answered a bit, which is that the "Special Editions are the way that Lucas sees the films today" so I guess they are the highest canon. Episode IV, V, VI, I, II, and when III comes out, that's the highest canon. And if Lucas changes the movies, the newest version is the one that's the "most canon" or something. Also I learned recently that one of the Ewok Adventure TV movies was originally shown in theaters (outside the US). So does it count as one of "the movies"? On a literal level it would, but most of us assume when the liscense people are talking about "canon" and say "the movies" they mean Episodes I-VI, nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin I have a theory about this. I believe that they are not innacurate. They just aim for the walls. If you notice, a lot of the walls explode when hit. This gives the stormtroopers the ability to do splash damage with a blaster. Pretty clever if you ask me. There's a few explanations for this: 1) Character shields. The good guys can't be killed by every stormtrooper they see can they? So like in all movies, they miss or only give superficial wounds. 2) All the Good Marksmen were off duty. The good guys just luck out and happen to run into the bad shots. The bored guards on the Death Star, etc. The guys who slaughtered the Jawas and killed Luke's aunt & uncle were great shots, but most of their shooting was done offscreen. 3) Different weapons. The Tatooine death squad had all kinds of long rifles and stuff, perhaps better for sniping. Most of the troopers we see have just basic machine guns. 4) Following orders. On the Death Star, the Rebels are "allowed to escape" at a certain point, so the troopers must not be trying to kill them. On Endor maybe they also just wanted to capture them rather than kill them. This isn't a perfect explanation, but it works in some of the cases. Troopers were able to nail R2D2, shoot Leia's arm, etc. Or, it may simply be that Good stormtroopers are rare. Maybe they just didn't need to have the same quality of training in the 20 years since the Clone Wars. And they didn't take the Rebels seriously enough (or didn't have time to do the proper training for the new clones, if they are even still clones by this point) until it was too late. I do like the suggestion of budget cuts (might explain the armor quality too) or going with less quality producers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 One more point about the "leader clones." We know that the Kaminoeans have the technology to make the clones more or less "independent," since we have Clone Officers and Boba. So what would stop them from making all the Imperial Officers clones? Conscripts tend to make crappy troops, as history has shown. Sure, indoctrinating the people as officers and making them "one" with the state is a good idea for propaganda purposes, but difficult of the majority of the people hate you and just pretend to support you to avoid being killed or tortured. As Vagabond mentioned, it will be interesting to see if there is an actual peace and "break" between the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War, or, if they are really just the same war, with a new emphasis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 I was under the impression the growth acceleration was just some kind of chamber or something they had the clones in. *shrugs* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Doubtful, since we see the Clones up and about, dressed and doing things as kids and as adults. The Cloning methods describes in the Expanded Universe differ sharply from the methods shown in AOTC. Instead of "birthing" them in a glass jar and then having them grow up as a normal human, only 2x as fast, with normal training, etc. and reduced independence if the cloner chooses, the EU clones are grown in "Spaarti" cylinders (looks a lot like a Bacta tank as was stated) to adulthood in a very short period (like 1-3 years), then given a "flash brain imprint" of the personality, memories and training of some adult donor (like an Imperial Officer or Jedi). And these EU clones give off a weird "sense" in the Force, have an extra "double vowel" in their name, and go insane (unless grow with a Ysalamari, so they are completely outside the Force, thus making them give off an even weirder aura in the Force). In the EU these clones were based off of various templates, and used by the Emperor to "transfer his soul" into the bodies and "possess" them like some demon. The Kamino style clones in AOTC can be tailored in some ways, such as the independance thing (to make them easier to "control") and the growth acceleration thing (Boba Fett was created without either "feature"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nairb Notneb Posted November 1, 2004 Author Share Posted November 1, 2004 Wow! That was a mouthful, but I'm glad it was posted. Like I said, it had been a long time since I read those books. So it can be said then that there are at least two methods of making clones. The Kamino Process, in which a high quality product is created at the price of time. Then there is the Spaarti Cylinder method which produces clones "quickly" and with a copy of the originals memories, but it is of poorer quality. If you tool Dex's words at saying that the Kamino's were good cloners then by these to methods he was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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