Admiral Vostok Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 The idea of having a unit like the Y-Wing as a fighter initially and then converting it into a Fighter bomber is Canon To star warsNo it isn't. I would have thought by now you'd know what Canon is. At least you're spelling it correctly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Vostok - i actually agree with you, the X-wing should comne before the Y-wing. The Y-wing first would give the Rebels too much of an advantage with the Proton Torpedoes, which would allow the Rebels to pummle any early enemy base. Viceroy - As for the Y-wing coming before the X-wing, Vostok is right in that the films dont say the Y-wing or the X-wing came first. The problem with EU is that it thinks of the Y-wing as a fighter, then made a bomber when the X-wing came along, whereas the films seem to indicate the X-wing is the fighter, with the Y-wing a more rugged but less agile strike aircraft, enabling it to better withstand enemy fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted October 27, 2004 Author Share Posted October 27, 2004 Anyway Let's ignore that little argument and get back onto a topic. Technologies should their cost relate to how many units they are upgrading. So say if you had none of that unit yet the cost wouldn't be as great as say if you had a hundred of that unit. Also should all units be upgraded immediatley or will they have to return to a building that makes that type of unit or should the not be upgraded but new one would be or should upgrades be ferried out by some sort of unit (ala porter from BFME). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Technologies should their cost relate to how many units they are upgrading. So say if you had none of that unit yet the cost wouldn't be as great as say if you had a hundred of that unit.That sounds fair enough, though I have to wonder why most games don't do it this way. Perhaps this will lend itself too well to turtling, so a person builds the bare essential units to get by until late game when they've researched all the techs. It certainly makes sense from a realism point of view but I'm undecided about the gameplay aspect. Also should all units be upgraded immediatley or will they have to return to a building that makes that type of unit or should the not be upgraded but new one would be or should upgrades be ferried out by some sort of unit (ala porter from BFME).Although it's the least realistic, I'd prefer my unit to just upgrade automatically rather than send them back to base or have something ferried out to them. Alternatively though the unit could "shut down" for a period of time, unable to attack (but can still be attacked) whilst they're upgrading their gear. But that could end up being just as annoying as returning to base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted October 27, 2004 Author Share Posted October 27, 2004 Well it would add to the strategy Element where you would have to rotate troops from your base to the front line and from the front line to the base. If you did that and units would have to stay near the building they were created at for say 10 seconds then they could move elsewhere upgraded. The idea of units and cost relation hasn't really been explored in many RTS's the only one I can think of is my wel loved example that I usually trot out whenever I get the remotest oppourtunity and I'll do so again. Imperium Galactica 2 uses a similar system where when you reserach a new technology. Say you've just researched Beam Lasers and you want to Upgrade what you've designated as your Quaser Class Heavy Cruiser's with this. They currently have Pulse Lasers now you would go into the design menu and go into the Design of the Quaser class and you could modify it. Say you also had researched a Class 4 Hyperdrive it would be cheaper to apply these 2 upgrades togeteher then seperatly. So you would change the design and then when you go to done you are given two choices Retrofit all units now and the cosr $XXXXXXX or modify the design and refit later. I'm beginning to think though that having a special unit going around could be best. Sort of like a quasi freighter with a few mechanics and parts it would also at the same time repair all mechanical units to full health and heal organic units. Having units shut down could be interesting since you never have an army made up entirley of one million of the same unit that's asking for trouble so you would have to stagger your upgrades perhaps and research in stages. Vostok I myself usually attempt to survive to Tech 4 with the bare minimum and then get the upgrades for me to be useful. Yet I don't turtle I just build a force that works well defensive but when I'm ready can go offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Vostok I myself usually attempt to survive to Tech 4 with the bare minimum and then get the upgrades for me to be useful. Yet I don't turtle I just build a force that works well defensive but when I'm ready can go offensive.Indeed, I do as well since things become a lot cheaper for Naboo in TL4. But you and I both know it is not an ideal way to play: too many times one of us has been rushed and horrendously crippled. If everyone were to do it because there was a definite economic benefit, then games would not be nearly as interesting. The example you provided from Imperium Galactica 2... is that to do with the number of units you've already got, or just getting cheaper upgrades by researching them together rather than separate? Again I stress that scaling the cost of upgrades depending on affected units is rarely done despite it being the most realistic way of costing things, so I think that constitutes a message not to be ignored. I think I like the special unit running around upgrading things the least of all out of all the ideas, as it just doesn't fit Star Wars. Returning to base is the most realistic, yet I'm not sure of the gameplay. I guess again it all comes down to how many techs there are in the game. If there are lots of techs like SWGB, returning to base would be rediculously annoying: you'd have to do it all the time. If there were only a half dozen techs like in Generals then it would work fine. Personally I love games where there is heaps of research to be done, and as such I'm not too keen on the returning to base idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted October 27, 2004 Author Share Posted October 27, 2004 It woudl depend what upgrade it was to how realistic it would be perhaps some upgrades could be automatic some would require for them to return to base and sone would send out a unit. Like upgrading Clone trooper rifles. It would send out a LAAT/c and drop a crate of new rifles the clone troopers would go get the new ones put the old ones in there the LAAT/c picks the crate up flies away and you recoup a percentage of the cost because they recycle the weapons. Pepole should try and get Imperium Galactica 2 it is a master piece. The Campaigns are excellent as well they have loads of random events you could play the same campaign a hundred times over and it would never be exactly the same. Perhaps that idea has made some desiogners scared and they're not willing to try it out or take a risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 It doesn't really come down to "taking risks". Game makers will often - though admittedly not all the time - test out ideas with alpha testers and to a lesser extent beta testers, and if the idea isn't well recieved it is rejected. So in most cases it isn't that designers are too scared to try something, it's that they tried it and it failed. Personally I can see that being the case here as I know I'd much rather have the upgrades performed instantaneously than have Clone Troopers return their rifles to a crate. Remember that Gameplay > Realism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Technologies should their cost relate to how many units they are upgrading. So say if you had none of that unit yet the cost wouldn't be as great as say if you had a hundred of that unit. This has actually already been done in Rise of Nations. I quite like the system because you cant take the easy way of doing things like building a huge, cheap force and then upgrading. I also figure that if you are going to use this system, since the research cost gets higher with each unit it is like giving each trooper a new rifle, so it should be automatic. Otherwise, i would prefer to see the upgrade only applied to newly built units, and not to the older ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 This has actually already been done in Rise of Nations.It was? I don't recall it being that way. I thought it cost the same no matter how many units you had. Then again I didn't play it for all that long since it sucked so much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted October 28, 2004 Author Share Posted October 28, 2004 I think though that My idea about for troopers that you could recoup some of the cost because the rifles would be recycled It hgasn't really been tried before but that's no reason not to try it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Well as I said before I think something like that gets too much i the way of gameplay, so I don't like it. I think it's quite likely it has been tried before and been rejected because it doesn't work well. In fact now I think about it I think something like that was conceived for Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War but it interrupted the flow of battle too much so now everything just gets instantaneously upgraded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted October 28, 2004 Author Share Posted October 28, 2004 Vostok you neglect my example the game you yourself Eagerly Await and the One I think should be scrapped in favour of them puling their fingers out and getting to work on the new C & C project which is confirmed to be of either Tiberian or Red Alert see. I of course speak of yet another shameless plug By EA for yet more money Battle For Middle Earth. If you check unit lists you will find Porters for every side delivering upgrades to units. Some People would agree breaking the pace of batle would be a releif in some cases especially our forum gam,es where the Tension can rise increadibly quickly and an hour of making split seconf decisions wear's off honed combat edges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Good tension is good. That's what is supposed to happen. If you cut down the pace, the game won't be so fun in the long run. Unless you're not looking for excitement... I like the way Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War has done it. Sure it looks a bit weird that units appear out of nowhere but it can make a skirmish last forever which is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Vostok - trust me, i've played RoN and the system does work that way. They also have a scaled cost for units so that it costs more to build a unit if you already have examples of that unit. Personally i dont like that bit, but scaled research costs are good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Windu, I've also played RoN. It seems I must have blocked out a few things since the game as a whole was not memorable. Viceroy, just because I'm looking forward to BfME doesn't mean I'll readily accept every gameplay choice they make. If porters work as you've described then that's certainly one thing I'm not happy with. Keep in mind though that BfME doesn't have a huge range of upgrades to choose from. If the official site is anything to go by, civs will only have half a dozen upgrades. With such a pitiful amount of upgrades to choose from, porters are feasible. However if the game were to have as many upgrades as SWGB, it would be a stupidly rediculous idea to use porters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 Which was WHY I suggested a cominaytion of all the ideasfor some things like Sensor upgrades- Range upgrades and sight and such would be automatic Speed upgrades as well. Some thing likes Trooper rifles would be dropped off by something and then picked up again giving you some money back. Then Major upgrades would have them return to the base and get upgrades there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 It would be too complicated to have different techs require different procedures, particularly if there are more than ten technologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Those ideas don't fit a fast/med pace RTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 If we get enough people on these forums get B4ME we could have a forum game there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 I know I'm getting BFME when it comes out... that is if I have money for it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 I'm getting it soon after my return to Australia in January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted November 3, 2004 Author Share Posted November 3, 2004 If I can spare the money From my Nintendo DS fund I might buy it and if it's crap i'll keep iot for Blitzkrieg 3. But chances are It'll be pretty good I like the sound of Isengaurd it sounds similar to the Confederacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Well if you liked Generals I think you'll really like BfME. One of the concepts in BfME I love that I thought I'd mention is the idea of building "veterancy". Basically your buildings and structures gain veterancy similar to how units gain veterancy - only it will not be due to number of kills obviously, I'm not really sure how buildings get veterancy... Anyway what it means is that since there are advanced units you can only build from veteran buildings, you'll be more willing to protect them from enemy attacks, whereas before most people would say "oh, I'll just build another one". So that's one idea I particularly like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted November 3, 2004 Author Share Posted November 3, 2004 I do know how it works however it's quite Obvious It'll equate to the cost of how may troops you've built. That idea could be good but in BFME terms it might not be the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.