Next JK game? (no, there's nothing new here, just a discussion)

[txa1265]

Originally posted by mediablitz

uh...prime...Fallen was the leader of a team that went undefeated for a half a year on the TWL ladder..the largest and most respected ladder in jk2

So where he goes, so goes ... um, I'm with Prime ... why do I care? Whatever his skills are, that doesn't make his opinion count more than anyone elses ... including the hundreds of thousands who have bought and enjoyed Raven's JKII and JA, and the millions who have bought and enjoyed Raven's games in general.

 

Mike

[FlashRam]

Newbie, I was pointing out that saying everyone would own fallen after the RPG newbs are gone (like that's going to happen) was ridiculous. And skilled players opinions do matter, i'm afraid. Fallen simply echoes the thoughts of the majority of competitive minded players out there. Is your wookie level 5 yet?

anyways, his statement about raven in JK series is major valid. Every patch they did for JK2 made it worse, and then basejka was the ultimate slap in the face. Raven has a shot at redeeming themselves in my mind if Quake 4 kicks ass. But anyways, Fallen was winning ladders in this series when you were still trying to get to level 21 with your dwarf in everquest, so....I think his opinions do matter more than yours.

[TK-425]

It's spelled WOOKIEE

[txa1265]

Originally posted by mediablitz

Newbie, <snip> Fallen was winning ladders in this series when you were still trying to get to level 21 with your dwarf in everquest, so....I think his opinions do matter more than yours.

I assume you were referring to me? Not that it matters, but I was building computers and gaming when you weren't even an itch in your father's crotch ...

 

As for opinions that matter - Raven has gotten sales of ~$750 (between Jedi Academy, Soldier of Fortune II, Jedi Knight II, Elite Force, Soldier of Fortune, Heretic II, Hexen II, Hexen, Heretic) based on Mac and PC versions of most ... how much from these 'pro's'?

 

The game industry is powered by MONEY, not by arrogant, loudmouthed teenagers.

 

Mike

[txa1265]

Apologies to any innocent bystanders

 

There are plenty of good developers out there, including Raven. Looking at Elite Force I vs. II, I is a better game, but there is plenty of good stuff for #II - more Trek goodness, much longer, and so on ... they really cranked on the Q3 engine.

 

Personally I would prefer a non id engine, I like the look of Source and Crytek engines, even though Doom 3 is technically better. I don't know how each would scale to a JK game, but it would be nice to see.

 

I'd be quite happy with a game focus like Doom 3 and core HL2 - single player focus with DM only for MP ... none of this rpg-er vs. ladder vs. people who just like to play argument.

 

Mike

[Prime]

Originally posted by mediablitz

uh...prime...Fallen was the leader of a team that went undefeated for a half a year on the TWL ladder..the largest and most respected ladder in jk2

Doesn't make his opinion any more or less important, dispite what some competative players would have us believe.

 

And I was only saying it in jest (thus the smiley, although perhaps the wrong one) and he had a smilie at the end of his post, so I figured he was teasing too. If he is a good player, great. Doesn't mean I can't disagree with him about Lucasarts contracting out development work.

 

Originally posted by mediablitz

Fallen simply echoes the thoughts of the majority of competitive minded players out there.

Fair enough. If competative players don't want to buy future Raven games, fine by me. But most competative players seem to be under the assumption that Raven tried to make a competatively oriented game and failed. To me it seems obvious that they tried to make a game that catered to casual players and succeeded. It is the admin and RPG mods that ruined the game for most of us more casual players.

 

Originally posted by mediablitz

But anyways, Fallen was winning ladders in this series

And I should care why? Because competative players demand that I do? I'm happy for him, but I don't see why it should matter to me.

 

Originally posted by mediablitz

you were still trying to get to level 21 with your dwarf in everquest,

Never played it. And it is likely I have been playing games longer than he has. But that doesn't really matter either, does it? Neither Mike or myself are RPG players (Mike isn't even an MP player). You seem to assume that since we don't play uber-competatively and play on ladders that we are automatically RPGers, which is just jumping to the wrong conclusion. Just as I try not to assume that every competative player is like those pimple-faced geeks on "Arena."

 

Originally posted by mediablitz

so....I think his opinions do matter more than yours.

If it matters more to you, fine. It doesn't to me, and not to Raven, obviously.

[FlashRam]

What needs to be accepted here is that when one is on a signifigantly higher level of skill at a game, they also have a signifigantly higher understanding of the depth and subtlties of the game. Someone such as that is simply in a better position to judge the game. You say things like "pro gamer" and "competitive" and "casual" and "just for fun". But it really boils down to this...nobody on this board is a pro gamer. When you say "competitive" in terms of a player type, what you mean is players who have fun improving their skills and trying to be the best. I can tell you that's what is fun for me. It's the "casual" and "just for fun" guys who have turned this game into a wank fest where people stand around for hours with their sabers down kicking anyone who shows any signs of skill or who wish to fight. So think carefully about who you are siding with here. Anyone who was around to remember the glory that was the early days of jk2 can't help but be bitter about the direction our favorite game has taken.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by mediablitz

What needs to be accepted here is that when one is on a signifigantly higher level of skill at a game, they also have a signifigantly higher understanding of the depth and subtlties of the game. Someone such as that is simply in a better position to judge the game.

No, they simply possess a better ability at killing others before they are killed.

 

If the purpose is to judge BattleFront or UT 2k4, then I defer to the judgement of those better suited to judge those types of games. Perhaps there will be a Saber based MP-focus Star Wars game, in which case I would again defer to MP oriented players. But JKII & JA are not MP-focused. They are SP-first games complemented with a wide array of MP options, many more than most in their class. And in that realm (SP-focus), elite pros aren't the best to judge a game.

 

Originally posted by mediablitz

Anyone who was around to remember the glory that was the early days of jk2 can't help but be bitter about the direction our favorite game has taken.

Let's look at the reality:

- JKII is an acknowledged great game, and JA was a very good game (under-reviewed, IMO, but that doesn't matter).

- JKII & JA sold very well, and remained top sellers for many months. They held their selling price at high levels for a very long time compared to other contemporary games. They sold very well on multiple platforms as well.

- They were never in the 'top 5' in terms of multiplayer gaming popularity, but JKII was more popular at the height of its' popularity than JA ever was.

- Both games have remained in the top 25 of MP games for a very long time - JK for nearly 3 years, JA for ~16 months.

- But yet what has driven sales for both of these games is the desire for players to take on the role of Kyle (or Jaden) and play through the story.

 

... and I was there for your so-called glory days, I remember that immediately after JKII was released, and subsequent to each patch, there was a flurry of superioristic posts from so-called 'pro players' who would pontificate about the reasons why JKII was 'teh sux0r' or whatever. I played JKII again a few months ago, as well as JA ... still the fun games I remember.

 

Mike

[Prime]

Originally posted by mediablitz

What needs to be accepted here is that when one is on a signifigantly higher level of skill at a game, they also have a signifigantly higher understanding of the depth and subtlties of the game. Someone such as that is simply in a better position to judge the game.

To judge the game in terms of competative balance, maybe. But that is not the primary concern to every player. Some players play to be the best/win all the time. Other players just want a game that is fun and has lots of elements from Star Wars. Both are valid reasons to play (and I mean play, not run around with their saber down trying to enforce unreaslistic rules). So to the latter group having a highly skilled player telling them the game sucks because uber strategy X breaks the game might not matter one god damn to them. If a player is interested in having a game that provides an experience which is a reasonable representation of the movies, a skilled player's opinion that the game should have grip-kicks is irrelevant. What needs to be accepted is that a skilled player may have insight into certain aspects of the game, but not every aspect, and that not every player cares if the game is suitable for competative play. A skilled player might not give a rats ass or know very little about Star Wars, so they will have a much less informed opinion about how the game captures the feel of that universe.

 

Originally posted by mediablitz

You say things like "pro gamer" and "competitive" and "casual" and "just for fun". But it really boils down to this...nobody on this board is a pro gamer. When you say "competitive" in terms of a player type, what you mean is players who have fun improving their skills and trying to be the best.

To be clear, when I refer to a competative player, I mean players whose primary goal is winning and competes on ladders and in tournaments. They don't care if the game closely represents Star Wars or not. They are happy either winning with a saber slice or a grip-kick or a pull-saber throw.

 

To me casual gamer refers to players who play the game for a fun diversion and/or wants a game that reasonably represents Star Wars. Doesn't mean they won't try to win. That is why I refer to myself as a casual player. I don't compete on ladders, but I play to get as many frags as I can and have a good time. I also like that it is a Star Wars game and I get to chop people up with lightsabers. I don't really care for the grip-kick stuff because I'd like a good Star Wars game.

 

Then there are RPGers and admin modders who do not even attempt to play the game. To me that is where the problem is.

 

Originally posted by mediablitz

It's the "casual" and "just for fun" guys who have turned this game into a wank fest where people stand around for hours with their sabers down kicking anyone who shows any signs of skill or who wish to fight.

By my definition I don't think the casual just-for-fun guys did ruin the game. Many of those players (at least in the beginning) had fun playing the game as it was meant to be played.

 

Originally posted by mediablitz

So think carefully about who you are siding with here. Anyone who was around to remember the glory that was the early days of jk2 can't help but be bitter about the direction our favorite game has taken.

I'm not siding with anyone apart from myself. But I would tend to side more with competative players since they actually play the game, not because some of them demand that I do so. It is the admin stuff that I can't stand. And I did get into JO the day it came out, and from what I remember the funnest time was in the very beginning with the pre-patches 1.02 (IIRC).

[CaptainRAVE]

They'll most likely make it when the Quake IV engine is finished.