Star Wars vs. Star Trek: THE MOD!

[Xyvik]

The minute this is done, it takes away one of the base premises of a mod. The ability to put units into a game without having to worry about sacrificing "realism" for "balance" is something modders can do but companies can not, or will not.

 

Which is why a lot of mods are piles of trash that fail less than a week after they are released. If you are attempting to make a multiplayer mod, balance -must- be at the very core of your design decisions, otherwise people will quickly figure out which side is strongest and never bother to play any other side because they would lose. And then they lose interest because it is one-sided, and go their merry ways. Realism has its place, of course, but if you don't balance things, then you wasted time making more than one side.

 

As for this ST vs SW discussion, the Federation would get its butt kicked by the Klingons anyway, so they are a horrible thing to base against Star Wars (as evidenced by the ST vs SW in five minutes). It can be endlessly debated about who would win, but in the end, the Borg rule, and so does Exar Kun. Now imagine if the Borg managed to assimilate a Jedi and kept his Force powers...

[Rha]

I think it would be a good idea...however the Star Wars physical weapons will pass right through the defenseive weapons of the Star Trek Universe and the energy weapons of Star Trek will bounce off the shields of the Star Destroyers. I play ST games and their shields are designed to protect from energy only weapons. There are no physical (i.e. Proton Torpedo) in Star Trek.

Photon and other types of Torpedoes are physical weapons in Star Trek. They are not balls of energy. There are many references to this in movies books and bla bla bla.

 

They are physical warheads and the shields in Star Trek do offer protection to these weapons. They detonate on the shields and not the hull of the ship. Shields in Star Wars don’t seem to help all that much. Why would the energy weapons in Star Wars be so much deferent from that of Star Trek? Aren’t they both ionized gas.

 

Here are some examples of Star Trek torpedoes.

http://www.ccdump.org/photontorps.html

http://www.ccdump.org/quantumtorps.html

http://www.ccdump.org/microqtorps.html

 

There were Star Wars vs. Star Trek mods for the Star Trek Armada games. The space combat in EAW is alot like that game also.

[Darth Windu]

Why do people automatically assume SW ships are so much better than ST? Fact is, Star Trek is sci-fi so there are specifics for shield power, weapons power etc. However, Star Wars is fantasy, so there are no specs. This means that balance can easily be achieved.

 

As for physical weapons, if ST ships shields couldn't handle physical weapons, then they would get instantly blown apart by space dust, meteorites etc not to mention the various topedoes, which are physical weapons.

[clone_troopa]

pfft... once the jedis start attacking all S-treek and the uber Death Star! course Star Wars wins...

 

besides.... SW got WAY bigger ships than ST size matters.... (dirty minds...)

[i_am_joey_jo]

The Star Trek ships would just flank the Star Wars ships from behind their englines where they can't fire and blow them all up.

 

There's no need to talk about power here.

 

And BTW: neither is REAL!

[clone_troopa]

oh fine them, my uber nuke pwns em all (btw SW got fighters for when those semi medium ST ships get behind a destroyer)

[Admiral Sith]

The Fighter and Bombers squadrons could just attack the ones behind the big ships and blow them up with a few laser blasts.

[jedi3112]

I think there is much we have to know about modding EAW. One thing I would really like to know is wheter or not we can add races instead of just replacing them. I seriously think it would be strange to have both the Rebels and the Empire sharing ships. The same goes for the ST races. So I think we need to be able to add them.

 

I'd also like to know what programs I should use for what. I have found several files I could open with notepad, but I still have to figure out what they say. And I need to know how the appearance of the units is done, I seriously hope it can be done using programs such as milkshape or 3ds max (maybe with some tools).

[Admiral Sith]

You'se the extractor on the Config.meg and modify the XML folders. Someone has already created a new faction, and its very moddable

[splintercell56]

I thought travel from the core to the outer rim took more then a few hours? But in the sight Admiral Sith provided says it takes less then a day. All this comparing numbers and tech is a little confusing. Why not just make a good Star Trek mod no crossovers unless really needed.

[Kurgan]

Star wars is not overpowered, see the borg will eventually adapt the imperial technology and use it against them, the brog are literally undefeatable

 

 

That's an interesting question. Since this is a game, you couldn't just make the Borg able to adapt to anything (and the ability to adapt to "anything" is really a misunderstanding, since they are vulnerable to physical projectiles and blades, chemical weapons, and they can't adapt to bio-tech like species8472, even their vaunted shields can be overcome by high level brute force which overwhelms it). Perhaps it would be done like this:

 

Give a special ability to a Borg unit called "assimilate." I could see it for a ground unit sort of being like Chewbacca's "capture vehicle" ability. For a ship, I think if they did it that way you'd have to do a boarding action, but since the game doesn't have boarding actions (unless you wanted to make a level that was the "inside of a ship" that you have to win as the borg), you could just have it so that you tractor beam the ship and get the shields down, then you would have a special ability that would take the enemy ship, when it's almost destroyed and turn it to your side. Basically it would become a controllable ship, but it would have some crappy borge technology slapped onto it (black and gray tubes and metal, green lights). Perhaps you could regenerate it over time (repaired hull so it would be useful).

 

If you wanted to balance the ability (and this is more realistic) don't say they can suddenly build this ship after "assimilating" it, they can just use that one unit, and any others they assimilate. Perhaps make it so that you need a special "assimilation" ability research or a certain unit that can do it. Say shields block it, and of course destroying them before they can put up the tractor beam would stop it from happening. You could even say that the Borg can't figure out Empire technology, so after they steal an Acclamator or something, it suddenly can only use Borg weapons (beams, those pulse disruptors, tractor beams, etc) and has borg shields. It basically turns into a borg ship but with the speed and manuverability of the original ship (and hull strength, but not original shield strength, since they've basically gutted the ship and replaced it with their own technology inside).

 

It's an idea anyway!

 

A pure Star Trek mod would be cool, but eventually we'd need both forces to fight, just for the sheer fanboy amusement it would bring.

 

....

 

The Star Trek ships would just flank the Star Wars ships from behind their englines where they can't fire and blow them all up.

 

There's no need to talk about power here.

 

And BTW: neither is REAL!

 

 

How dare you! *Fires Geek Cannon*

 

Anyway, by being a member here you're basically admitting to a certain level of Geek-dom, so you don't have any shields, muhahahha.

 

Anyway, That's a common misconception. I mean, in EaW, why doesn't that strategy work (getting behind a ship and firing away at it until it's destroyed without it ever being able to fire back)? Plus, you forget about shields. A shielded Star Destroyer will laugh off the shots from Federation ships. They'd have to first take out the generator (in-game). Fighters would harass the Trek ships. After all, in Trek they focus almost exclusively on Capital ships rather than fighters. Yes the Empire would steam roll over the Federation, but that's why in making the game you could do little things to make it not seem so far-fetched (as in single player missions or equalizing certain things, but I'm not saying make Trek into an exact replica of say, the Rebels).

 

So anyway, these are all issues you'd have to work out in game. I'm more talking about a mod loosely based on the franchises, not an exact down to the detail "canon" representation. Because already you have the EaW version of the Rebellion and the Empire which are not exactly like the ones we see in the movies. The Trek version doesn't have to be exact either. Just enough to make you think "wow this is cool."

 

....

 

Why do people automatically assume SW ships are so much better than ST? Fact is, Star Trek is sci-fi so there are specifics for shield power, weapons power etc. However, Star Wars is fantasy, so there are no specs. This means that balance can easily be achieved.

 

Actually, this isn't quite correct. Both series's are Sci Fi AND sci fantasy. After all, Trek has ghosts, gods, monsters, magic, all that stuff. Sure they explain it away with technobabble, but it's still "fantastical" type stuff. And in actuality, the Trek technical manuals are NON-canon (as officially stated by Paramount which controls the franchise). Whereas the Star Wars technical books (like the Incredible Cross Sections and Essential Guides) are in the canon hierarchy (though subservient to the movies of course). So you can get technical specs. But again, that would be way too complicated.

 

The EaW version of the Empire/Rebellion is an aproximation accounting for gameplay mechanics (challenge, fun, balance). The Trek version could be done with a similar approach. If you wanted it 100% realistic to canon, you'd have to totally change the way the SW forces are in game, because they're not movie-perfect right now!

 

As for physical weapons, if ST ships shields couldn't handle physical weapons, then they would get instantly blown apart by space dust, meteorites etc not to mention the various topedoes, which are physical weapons.

 

They have navigational deflectors that are apparently always on that stop space dust. Their shields are strong against energy weapons they know about (like disruptors, phasers and tractor beams), but weak against physical impactors (like asteroids, kamikaze ships, even torpedoes). Basically how space combat typically goes in Trek is they close distance, fire away with torps until the shields are down, and then use phasers or beam over boarding parties and try to capture the ship. Sometimes they encounter some powerful race that is able to fire or beam through their shields, but they eventually are able to adapt and it goes back to standard tactics. In game it would probably just work out that shields and weapons always work. Perhaps the shields are more vulnerable to projectiles, but otherwise it would always "work" the same as we see in game already.

 

Personal shields are like this too. Borg soldiers for example, are able to shrug off phaser shots fairly easily, but they go down like unshielded beings from physical strikes and even physical bullets.

 

....

 

There are conventional weapons in ST, but they have become quickly superseeded by Quantum, Energy, Phase and Temporal weapons. Melee combat would be great - Klingons with Bat'Leths and various other things, like from Klingon Honour Guard (old, pretty crap pre Elite Force game). Ground units could be built-upon those ideas from Star Trek New Worlds, a seriously failed ground-based late-TOS era RTS. Space combat would be a bit unmatched in some areas - Victory Star Destroyer would only be able to be taken down by the Kremin Timeship, the Wells Class Timeship, or a combined Borg Tactical Fusion Cube, Prometheus, Soulwolf, D'derex, Akira, Defiant, Qo'Nos class armada (think Borg Incursion from ST:Armada 2 ). Then you get the problem of the Force vs Telepaths/Telekinetics (Betazoids, and the Telekinetics I think were those strange people from TOS) and the Prophets/Pah'Wraiths (DS9) - and lightsabers vs Bat'Leths. Just throwing a few ideas into the pan.

 

I personally think that ST vs SW has been done to death a bit, especially in the ST gaming circuit. There have been many great ST vs SW TCs, but to have another one would require an immensly dedicated team from before EAW was released. (And as already pointed out, we don't know the modding capabilities yet, but my hope is that they will be great because of the C&C background most of the developing studio has).

 

I hope I didn't sound to idea flattening...

 

Condor out.

 

Perhaps it's been done to death in the ST circuit, but I can't think of any games that have done it well in the SW section. And I'm not counting the various (often poorly done) Star Trek skins for like JA or something. I mean an actual "us vs. them" type mod for multiplayer or singleplayer, in REAL TIME.

 

Basically what is needed to really make this work is the ability to make custom maps, custom textures, and custom models work in-game. The rest can be done right now, and especially since somebody mentioned you can add new factions.

 

....

 

Photon and other types of Torpedoes are physical weapons in Star Trek. They are not balls of energy. There are many references to this in movies books and bla bla bla.

 

They are physical warheads and the shields in Star Trek do offer protection to these weapons. They detonate on the shields and not the hull of the ship. Shields in Star Wars don’t seem to help all that much. Why would the energy weapons in Star Wars be so much deferent from that of Star Trek? Aren’t they both ionized gas.

 

Here are some examples of Star Trek torpedoes.

http://www.ccdump.org/photontorps.html

http://www.ccdump.org/quantumtorps.html

http://www.ccdump.org/microqtorps.html

 

There were Star Wars vs. Star Trek mods for the Star Trek Armada games. The space combat in EAW is alot like that game also.

 

Well like a lot of things, they have "similar" technology but it doesn't always work the same. Compare the bubble shields in Trek to the various shield types in Episode I. Clearly Star Wars has various types. Compare the travel times of Hyperdrive across the galaxy in Episode III and Episode V vs. that in Star Trek Voyager (of course Star Trek V has travel apparently to the core of the galaxy in a barely functioning Enterprise-A but still). "Stun" setting is different, etc. Anyway, the point is you'd modify it to balance for gameplay sake. You could make Trek weaker in some areas, but compensate in others.

 

If you were to make it a multiplayer mod you'd have to fudge realism in order to balance it. For single player you wouldn't need to, just make it equal in terms of numbers, (like fewer ships vs. larger armies or something).

 

Smaller mods could of course be done, but I'm thinking combining the Trek forces into one "side" would be coolest and the best eventual goal of some such mod (if any of the people who did any of the other SWvsST mods would get involved that would be awesome), sort of like how so many factions joined forces to fight the Dominion in Deep Space Nine (for those who don't know, it was the Federation, Bajorans, Klingons and eventually Romulans vs. the Dominion and the Breen). You could toss in lesser seen aliens in later shows like the Ferengi (who in TNG had warships and were considered as powerful as the Federation). The Borg were considerably more powerful in TNG than in later shows. You could give them that power level compared to the Federation, but with the cool units they'd have later (like the Tactical Cubes, spheres and such). Basically any excuse to have the "cool" units from each side brought to the fray.

[c0n5t4n7in3]

I think it's a great idea, but I would wait 'till the full version to mod the game.

[Kurgan]

I'm sure you'd need to anyway due to the amount of new content you'd have to create that couldn't all be done in simple XML.

 

But there's nothing wrong with planning ahead! A lot of interesting mods begin before a game even comes out.

[aggie_john]

Well not to get into the which side is better conversation but there is one glaring problem with the star trek side....no real ground forces to speak of. I think you would have to make up a bunch of stuff to even it out, which could be cool if the designers were creative enough but then again I could see a bunch of people compaining that it was not genuine and crap.

 

Also you would need to deside which era you would make the game in... TOS/TMP era or the TNG era. You also need to deside which faction you want in. A total conversion or a versus. IE the dominion war or perhaps something never done before like the pre Star Trek wars with the alliance/new Federation against the Romulans or Kiligons or some versus war say Empire versus Federation/ Alpha Quadrant Allinace.

[jedi3112]

Well not to get into the which side is better conversation but there is one glaring problem with the star trek side....no real ground forces to speak of. I think you would have to make up a bunch of stuff to even it out, which could be cool if the designers were creative enough but then again I could see a bunch of people compaining that it was not genuine and crap.

 

Also you would need to deside which era you would make the game in... TOS/TMP era or the TNG era. You also need to deside which faction you want in. A total conversion or a versus. IE the dominion war or perhaps something never done before like the pre Star Trek wars with the alliance/new Federation against the Romulans or Kiligons or some versus war say Empire versus Federation/ Alpha Quadrant Allinace.

 

The only St ground forces I've ever seen is that thing at the beginning of nemesis. And perhaps those in New Worlds (quite unkown because the game is crap, like only saving between missions, etc.). That would be one thing to take care of.

 

The era mostly used is the TNG era, come to think of it I've never really seen a ST game set in another era (perhaps NW, but I only played the demo). The factions aren't that hard to decide, but do largely depend on the era. I don't think it would be a good idea to put factions together.

 

I think there is much we have to know about modding EAW. One thing I would really like to know is wheter or not we can add races instead of just replacing them. I seriously think it would be strange to have both the Rebels and the Empire sharing ships. The same goes for the ST races. So I think we need to be able to add them.

Someone has already created a new faction, and its very moddable

 

I suggest enlarging the universe and add the following factions.

 

Rebels/New Republic/Seperatists/Trade Federation

Empire/Imperial Remnant/Old Republic (N1 constucted on Naboo)

Federation/Earth

Klingons

Romulans (inlude Remus for constuction of Reman ships, like the scimitar)

Borg (if TNG)

Cardassians (if TNG)

Dominion with subs (if TNG)

Vulcans (if Enterprise era)

Andorians (if Enterprise era)

 

At least include the major planets of ST,

Utopia Planetia (fed main shipyards, sort of functions like Kuat)

Romulus

Remus

Klingon home world

Gamma Quadrant (for dominion)

Cardassia

Delta Quadrant

Earth

Mars

Andorria

Vulcan

 

Add others to fill up that galaxy. Now you may need to think of some groundunits for each one, and they need to be in style, so I think the Feds would use hovering vehicles, but I don't know about the others.

[Kurgan]

True enough, across all of canon ST, there's basically just infantry, troop hoppers (mentioned in a DS9 episode but never shown), a mortar (TOS), an armed dune buggy (Nemesis), a laser cannon implacement (TOS: The Cage/Menagerie), orbital bombardments (TOS: A Piece of the Action and a few rumored episodes), base shields (Enterprise episode with the Klingon virus), transporter inhibitors/attack drones (Insurrection), and that's about it. For the most part Trek factions rely on space power, and their infantry consists of marines or warriors which are little more than glorified starship security forces.

 

In a game like this, that would mean the Trek forces would have great difficulty holding any planets, but oh well, it's still just an idea. You could make up stuff, or you could focus on space, or do a single player campaign that wouldn't have to be balanced.

 

I guess with regards to era, you would probably want to take TNG era (including the TNG movies up to Nemesis) and just retroactively throw in everything that came before, much like EaW does with the Rebellion/Empire. After all, in the classic trilogy we never see Clone Wars era ships and vehicles being used, but EaW assumes they didn't just throw them all away, recycle them or forget how to build them. So you could still say, build a Constitution class starship (Kirk's era) or a mortar, despite them never being seen in Picard and Janeway's time. And the MACO's from Enterprise fight much better than many of the security forces in the later shows, so you'd think that they would be capable of training marines who were at least as well equipped, but with "modern" (for them) weaponry and gear.

[CondorFalco]

The Elite Force squad is a modern version of MAKO in ST:Voy (there is a game by the same name). Ground forces would require an artistic license.

 

Adding a few more planets to the list:

 

As regards the Galaxy Map, do you think it would be possible to change the planets into star systems (such as Sol, Trill system etc.) as seen in Birth of the Federation (the only TBS and one of the greatest ST games ever created). This would increase the amount of buildings available to be built in a single system, and therefore you could add more buildings for different strategies.

[jedi3112]

You could have one planet funtion as sort of a doorway, and have the other planets in a star system connect to only each other, while the doorway planets connect to the planets in a system as well as some other doorway planets. Though you might consider an asteroid field to be this doorway planet, or a sun, or deep space. We'll need to see what's available in the full game.

[CondorFalco]

Yeah. Sounds plausible though. However, you would probably need to scale down the planets, or increase the size of the Galaxy for it to work well (or both).

[Kurgan]

The Elite Force squad is a modern version of MAKO in ST:Voy (there is a game by the same name). Ground forces would require an artistic license.

 

Right, except the MAKO's are canon, while the Elite Force is not. The Elite Force was only used in a fictional segment of Voyager's history (200 years after the MACO's during the time of Enterprise). There are Federation ground forces, according to Star Trek VI and DS9's later seasons. It's also hinted at in a few TOS episodes (notably "The Cage" and the episode with the Yangs/Kohms, I forget the name of that one). The Dominion uses the Jem Hadar, and the Klingons use infantry. The Romulans use Reman infantry, according to Nemesis. The Borg of course use their Drones as cannon fodder.

 

It's true though, their ground forces are pathetic compared to the Star Wars factions, since they largely consist of just infantry.

[CondorFalco]

Very true, however the Jem-Hadar use various heavy weapons as well, and they are even tougher than the Klingons, so they would probably be as close to an even match against Stormtroopers as possible, and I suspect that they would almost destroy a rebel infantry squad quite quickly. They are also cloned, with the only two downsides being their addiction to Ketracel White, and their short life-span (max 6yrs I think). They also use cloaked hovering mines (can't remeber their name), that are incredibly deadly. I do not believe that the Feds have very heavy handheld weaponary, and I suspect that the Klingons do have heavy weaponary, although they do not use it as much since they prefer melee combat.

[jedi3112]

The problem with only infantry is that an AT-AT or tracked tank (what was it called again a T3-B or is that the thing from Force Commander, damn numbers?) can quite easy flatten your infantry forces. Vehicles are needed. So you may want to design some stuff on your own, though somebody mentioned that that would require some sort of licence. Though I believe there are quite some fan designed ships in A2. And when designing vehicles you may also need to figure out what looks fit in with the faction.

[CondorFalco]

Well, to start off with, I think somebody has already mentioned the Argus and the speeder buggy seen in Nemesis, so they could be used as a quick insertion vehicle and scout vehicle. Tanks etc, well they could be evolved forms as what were scene in New Worlds.

I suspect that the Romulans would use combinations of incredibly heavy firepower combined with cloaking swift strike forces, and almost all of their units would be able to cloak somehow (giving a very large tactical advantage).

The Klingons would most likely resort to troop transports to insert their brave warriors onto the field, with medium sized vehicles making the bulk of the tanks, etc.

The Federation would have a mixture of artillery, close combat vessels and all-purpose attack craft, all being high-tech. These would probably be the weakest, since the Feds are not accustomed to fighting ground battles post TOS (Klingons vs Feds) - with the exception being the Dominion War of course. So you could argue that the Feds would be developing on the ground attack front.

The Romulans would probably have artillery as well, with it being very high-tech, and the Klingons would most likely not have any meaningful artillery since they prefer close quarters battles.

[jedi3112]

I agree with you on the units. For a general layout of the units I'd use

 

I think the feds would mostly use fast repulsorlift vehicles, giving them a huge disadvantage when fighting on planest where repulsorlifsts are disabled. They would also use some wheeled vehicled for these planets. Most fed vehicles, if not all of them, would be shielded, but lacking in raw firepower and armor. I think the feds would also use some type of flying units, the way the rebels use their speeders. The fed would have a well balanced force, but individual units would be relatively weak in combat compared to the others. They also would be slightly more expensive, for the technology. The boost shields special abilty would be one the feds would most likely use. I think the feds would use mostly energy weapons

 

I think the klingons would use tracked vehicles and walkers, but no repulsorlifts. I also don't think the klingons would use shields a lot. I suspect they rely on pure armor. I think the klingons would use a lot of firepower, but with short ranges compared to the others. I don't think the klingons would use artillery. I think some of the Harkonnen units from Emperor:Battle for Dune would fit in with the klingons. Mostly the buzzsaw. The klingons would probably use the boost weapons special ability. The klingons might also use a lot of shield penetrating weapons. They also would use somewhat cheap stuff.

 

The romulans would most likely use repulsorlifts and tracked/wheeled vehicles, but no walkers. All of these in a well balanced mix. They would also use a lot of sneaky stuff, such as a cloaking device, and ion cannons, as well as shield penetrating guns. The rommies would have quite some firepower as well as longer ranges. So they don't have to engage in close combat, but can bombar them from a safe distance. Their main army would be based on the protection of the artillery, as well as a spotter to find the targets. I think the rommies would keep a few bombers in reserve during a defending spacebattle, so that if they lose they can use those bombers during the groundbattle that usually follows. I think the romulans should have a special unit that functions the same as their cloak enhencer from their A2 frigate. They would also have a cloaked spotter for their artillery.

 

Romulan space forces should be able to retreat even if there is a gravity well active, by cloaking. Though I am thinking about countering this one, by for example destroying their cloaking device, or have some cloak detect units. I also don't know wheter it's possible to initiate battle with only cloaked units. Undetectable units present when building a space station should not prefent the construction, but I believe they already don't.

 

The cardassians would use really cheap units, and mainly skirmisher type units. This would be artillery with some really fast hit and run units. These guys would most likely have the longest ranges and the fastest units. Though the damge they do with each shot is somewhat weak, and when surrounded they are really in trouble. They would probably use their infantry as cannon fodder and as spotter units. Their infantry should not have a lot of firepower, and their squads should come in small numbers.

 

Now about the cloaking, I think all infantry should be able to detect cloaked units in their LOS. Also all scout units should be able to detect them. The spotter units that comes with artillery should also be able to detect cloaked troops. The other units should be able to detect them only if they are really close to them. When a units is disabled it should also not be able to cloak, and if it already was cloaked it should immediatly decloak, with shields down.

[CondorFalco]

I pretty much agree with what you have said. However, as regards to cloaking, their is the Tachyon Detection Grid as featured in TNG which renders cloaking useless, and this would probably be only equipped on the spotters and scoutcraft. Infantry would not be able to operate such a device since it requires a lot of power, and a deflection grid/deflector, so unless say a group of scouts were specialised and carried the equipment around (say, 6 of them) and deployed, it would not fit. And yes, as in A2, units that have the ability to cloak and have been disabled, will decloak without shields.