the Great Staff/Single Saber Debate (split from the JA+ thread)

[Lathain Valtiel]

A jump seems to work well enough.

 

 

Not against a player that knows what he/she is doing.

 

 

I seem to manage fine.

 

1) Two problems with that. One, it is unreliable and you may get hit anyway due to the still-remaining slowdown. Two, it is extremely predictable, and since the staff/dual user is not under slowdown, they can easily meet you in midair after they realize what you are doing. So no, it does NOT 'work well enough'.

 

2) You keep telling yourself that... I've studied the topic of JA lightsaber combat extensively ever since the game came out (and even before with such JK2 mods as ForceMod II that had more styles), and it is DAMN clear that staff in particular (especially forward diagonals) has this nasty tendency for its attack to just get right past opposing single sabers even when they are clearly about to meet for a head-on collision. Heck, I've somehow gotten damaged by such a thing after a flawless red right-left back-to-forward diagonal sweep into a jump for headshot kill. Saying staff's chaotic nature doesn't almost universally help it is a joke.

 

3) Yay you. Got anything better than 'oh I don't think so' type statements? Better than my year+ period of experience in studying this matter, having dueled with some of the nastiest opponents on Bladeworks repeatedly and even won somewhat consistently (no jokes here, the better ones are absolute horrors)? I have seen it time and time again: At higher levels, a singler pretty much needs to use cheats or very Euro dodge tactics to beat a staff or a dual user even remotely consistently.

 

---

 

StaffSaberist: Oh please. You have no argument even worth considering except your personal experience, which chances are are pretty meager compared to my own.

 

While it is so that staffers can lose to singlers, it usually only happens consistently if the singler is notably better skilled in comparision, and/or the singler has read the opponent. The reverse is not even remotely true, as staff chargers for example have a one-size-fits-almost-all strategy that works on the grand majority of single NF duel opponents with no need for alteration (it's even nastier if they turn fast, but that's not as outrageously exploitative as red or yellow style doing it).

 

The only time Red has a chance or doing a forward and backward kill is either when one of the oppoments is at the very end of the arc, i.e. not really behind but more to the side, or on AN EXTREMELY LUCKY overhead. Yellow does not arc as much as that is even rarer without yawspin.

 

---

 

This is ridiculous. You two haven't been able to objectively contradict a single thing I've said on this issue. This is almost a waste of my time, but alas I like forced education.

[StaffSaberist]

That was intended as a joke, right? If you actually studied an entire year, you need to get out more, and/or play more JA. After your year of studying, the game has changed drastically. People now know how to find the flaws with the Staff, and they have defeated them. I was not the only staff wielder in that FFA game, there were several others. They used tactics identical to mine, and they were SABERED. In fact, we staffers were 4th, 5th, and 6th out of 8-9 (the ninth dropped in and out, probably a slow connection) Not the worst, but far from the best that game.

 

No, I cannot speak for the others. But they sure as hell didn't act like they were n00b's. They fought well, and there were plenty of points traded. I got several kills quickly - then they caught on.

 

I have no arguement? I do not spend years comparing charts and tables that OTHER USERS CREATED, it's a waste of my time. I speak from the battles I have fought, the kills I have scored, and the unbelievable defeats I've gotten. Like, getting good hits on an opponent, seeing him swing in Red, I try evasive, I succeed, and charge again - next thing I know, I'm dead. This is not normal, I lose less than 20% of my duels. I may not be so good at FFA, (thought I'd try, though) but I am *not* a n00b by *any* means. Here's to you, LV.

 

As long as you try to dissect me, I'll give it a try. YOU appear to be pissed off because you lose to staves all the time. Do you realize all the swings of the Staff are nearly the same? The only difference is whether the attack is in front, to the side, or top-down, which I might add, is a BASIC move for all sabers, heck, blasters can do that if you snipe.

 

Meager, eh? Don't turn this into a flame war; we will both get banned for it. We are not argueing about skill, we are argueing about the sabers themselves. Don't confuse using your experience as an example with using that as your entire arguement. Don't be ridiculous, Raven balanced these sabers. The benefits of the singles are that many more 133t comboes are possible, the dual advantage is the ability to throw and melee strike, and the staff has more raw damage - if you are dumb enough to let it hit you without trying evasive.

[Lathain Valtiel]

You think I can construct a series of 1,000+ character posts speaking of the more mechanical aspects of saber vs. saber combat out of no observation data against some of the most badass and some of the most laughable staffers, dualists, and singlers around? Of course my NF saber duel experience is valid, it is beyond extensive. Furthermore, you can't say mine is invalid without invalidating your own. The difference is that I have been able to describe very clear ability differences that are readily observable with extended play.

 

I actually don't lose to staves all the time, usually I dominate them utterly (unless they can one-shot me due to Meatgrinder's double damage). Kindly don't attempt to discern why I say what I say when I've already indicated why I do so: It is inherently obvious that there is an imbalance that puts the singler at a disadvantage versus the other two saber types. Regardless of my (actually pretty stellar for a non-cheating single) record, this near-fact remains regardless of your bluster.

 

---

 

The slashes for staff are nearly the same, yes... Almost universally unbalanced.

 

Side slash? Superior to almost all others, only dual side spam exceeds its power due to its greater arc. Fast, forever chainable, good damage, tendency to knock away single sabers.

 

Overhead slash? Fast guard breaker with high chance at standing headshot damage. Only dual gets a better ovehead attack because of its screwed up ability to get a consistent headshot on somebody BEHIND the attacker.

 

Forward diagonal slashes? Fastest and best in the game with the potential to easily ignore single guard while providing fairly decent defensive power itself. It is also infinitely chainable with almost no speed penalty, thus allowing the staffer to mow almost anything down.

 

The only slash even remotely average is the underside slash back to forward.

 

Defensive manuevers of the staff? Well, let's see...

 

Backflip: So fast you really can't jump after it even remotely consistently. Good recovery time allowing for a jump-away if the enemy gets close, but nonetheless inferior to...

 

Side flip: Nigh unstoppable (especially if wiggled), if the enemy gets close to attack they risk getting suddenly damaged with decent chance of getting headshotted. Staff recovery on landing is minimal, allowing a jump-away almost immediately, killing the idea of a semi-consistent lunge counter. Has this nasty tendency to block standing diagonal red strikes utterly due to impressive defensive power.

 

Not even DUAL has a defensive resume this badass short of ass-fighting (just using dual backstab while backing up into the enemy with overheads. In DBS somehow the totally still second blade is lethal and has practically absolute back defense, even trumping the nearly almighty and unbelievably cheap spun butterfly) and Double Lunge.

 

---

 

You've provided no mechanical argument to refute my claims, only conjecture. Surely you can do better.

[ZeroX2]

2) You keep telling yourself that... I've studied the topic of JA lightsaber combat extensively ever since the game came out

And I haven't?

 

Got anything better than 'oh I don't think so' type statements?

Got anything better than "you will get dominated", "do not argue with me" type statements?

 

This is almost a waste of my time, but alas I like forced education.

"You keep telling yourself that..."

 

a singler pretty much needs to use cheats or very Euro dodge tactics to beat a staff or a dual user even remotely consistently

...

I actually don't lose to staves all the time, usually I dominate them utterly

So what's the problem? Do you cheat then?

[StaffSaberist]

Ooh. *snap*

[Lathain Valtiel]

And I haven't?

 

 

Got anything better than "you will get dominated", "do not argue with me" type statements?

 

 

"You keep telling yourself that..."

 

 

So what's the problem? Do you cheat then?

 

1) You have not demonstrated even remotely extensive knowledge on the subject by way of valid counterpoints, so I'd have to say... no. No you haven't.

 

2) Well, how about the series of monstrous posts I have made quite clearly illustrating the dramatic technical abilities of the various saber types? You know, the posts you seem to have so much trouble responding to with valid counterpoints, giving out one sentence quips (that I have effortlessly crushed as I am doing now) regarding specific details and ignoring the rest?

 

I dare an objective person to step up and tell me where I'm wrong in if they have the ability to do so. If I'm wrong, prove it. Do what the two fools who have been arguing against me have been unable to do with knowledge, and have been trying to do with conjecture and insinuation.

 

3) This is effectively forced education... You refuse to see the truth in what I've written, but in the very least I'm going to drill it into the skull of every objective observer of this thread that you are dead wrong. It's rather telling that no one has stepped to your defense with a half-decent argument.

 

4) Might want to post the rest of the first statement... You know, the 'AT HIGHER LEVELS' part. My second statement has no such qualifier, which means that it indicates a subjective average overall result based on all players I have fought.

 

Surely you can argue better than this... You had to misquote me to get one of your four one-sentence points for crying out loud.

[ZeroX2]

that I have effortlessly crushed as I am doing now

I'd hardly say you're crushing my replies. You still haven't convinced me that the Single Sabers are under-powered, and you're making yourself look more arrogant with every post. Such as with the following comments.

 

the two fools ... You will get dominated. ... Do not argue with me.

We're fools because we believe something different to you? Heh...

 

You have not demonstrated even remotely extensive knowledge on the subject by way of valid counterpoints

I'm still waiting for you to answer my original question. Have you ever actually tried using a Saber Staff for more than five seconds? You say you have incredible knowledge of the entire saber system - yet you say that the backflip move can be chained in and out of other moves, when it actually requires you to have completely finished an attack (i.e. when the cool-down is finished).

 

And this thread was supposed to be about JA+.

[StaffSaberist]

So... we are fools if we disagree, LV? Your ego is as large as this JK forum, pal. If the Single Saber is so underpowered, SHOW US THE DAMN PROOF. Give us links to the official damage table of each JA saber. Allow us to compare the stats, right down to the decimal numbers. Basically, you have told us these tables exist, and we are fools to disagree. OK, if they exist, GIVE US AT LEAST A LINK, HERE! We need some better proof than "You are an idiot because you disagree with the tables I have been studying and will not show you."

[Kurgan]

Let's not resort to flaming here guys. I split off this thread so you can discuss this subject... and do so in a civilized fashion.

 

Thanks!

[StaffSaberist]

OK. I still would like to see these charts, LV. Then, we can finally end this flame war. Oh, and before you twist that last sentence, I do not tire of arguing. I tire of dealing with you time and again, like an insect you just cannot squish, no matter how many times you step on it!

 

I am not afraid to admit it IF I am wrong. However, I would very much like to see the same material you studied, and to know how official the source is. After that, we can discuss it, and debate a little more about the numbers, and this thread can quietly slip into the wind. Deal?

[razorace]

So... we are fools if we disagree, LV? Your ego is as large as this JK forum, pal. If the Single Saber is so underpowered, SHOW US THE DAMN PROOF. Give us links to the official damage table of each JA saber. Allow us to compare the stats, right down to the decimal numbers. Basically, you have told us these tables exist, and we are fools to disagree. OK, if they exist, GIVE US AT LEAST A LINK, HERE! We need some better proof than "You are an idiot because you disagree with the tables I have been studying and will not show you."

 

The generic swing damage for double sabers is 70 and 80 for medium.

[RpTheHotrod]

Gonna make this short and simple.

 

It depends on the user. Generally, staff is easy to spam and get random kills...hence the reason many swarm and use it in a terrible spamming way. They really have no clue how to use it other than spamming. This has caused poor reputation for the staff. Why? Most people have no idea how to use it in a skillfull matter.

 

Groups of people should not lookdown on people for using any saber until they see how they handle the saber. More than likely, it will be another noob staffer, true...but not always.

 

In my case, I taught myself how to master the staff with carefully timed, individual swings...much like using it like a single. No sweeps, no spam, no specials, not even butterfly unless it's absolutely neccessary.

 

There are skilled staffers out there, which is why I'm a popular staffer....I'm no noobsticker. It just takes a lot of effort and skill to pull it off...which is what most are too lazy or unable to practice.

 

Single can kill in one good swing. The trick to survive it is mastering evading and blocking while successfully getting in and out without being touched.

[StaffSaberist]

Thank you, RTH. That may be the one point I have been trying to make. I suppose that makes me a less-experienced version of you. I use butterfly to escape, not kill. Anyway, I am going to go practice against Bots for a while.

 

Look, LV, I am sorry this got so heated. Yeah, the staff is easier to spam. And yes, there are more cheap moves. But nobody like that lasts for long, regardless of their fighting style. My choice of saber is based on personal preference alone.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Hotrod: It is so that single can kill in one good swing without cheating via the overhead back jump move, the catch is that only that one particular move can do it consistently (diagonal followed by jump and side swing followed by jump tend to just miss the instant kill mark presuming 100 HP and 25 shields), and said move leaves the single saberist wide (and I mean WIDE) open on the windup and recovery, with only I think three chains out of it assuming you don't jump: another overhead, a forward left short swing which has surprisingly bad block penetration and range for a red attack, and forward left short swing plus combo finisher overhead.

 

In contrast, while it is practically impossible (or at least I've never seen it) for staves to get a one-shot kill consistently without spinning butterfly, it is possible for staff to pretty reliably chain sideflip out of the majority of its moves, making it ridiculously risky to counter (unless you cheat as a single). For example, it is a fairly common scenario for a red user to send an attack down against a staffer who has just butterflied and should be recovering. What can happen is that the staffer then sideflips, which grants so much defense that the attack is usually utterly blocked judging from the white flashes and no enemy pain sounds. I mean, this is red style here. That should not be blockable so easily considering the hassle a user has to go through to land it and not get countered mercilessly.

 

As for evasion... Let's not kid ourselves. Unless the singler cheats, it is pretty easy to counter red for a staffer/dualists/yellow user after you get to a certain level. So what does that leave the single user to do against a staffer or a dualist, who is capable of far more guard-breaking damage over time? Use yellow. Which is demonstratably technically inferior in pretty much every fashion except forward strike range and single strike damage, which are both rather easily negated by the staff/dual's guard breaking tendencies, greater defense (lets not lie, yellow gets blocked ONE HELL OF A LOT by those two, and staff in theory gets a better yellow due to possible twitch abuse), and slightly greater speed. There's a reason that turtling works best on staves and duals (I'm leaning towards duals being best for it due to side swing arc and range).

 

I really can't buy the 'it depends on user' thing because staff.dual are just BETTER than single in multiple things, with single getting the short end of the stick with the most ways to blow past it.

 

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Saberist: It's not true that cheap staff tactics don't last long. Not true AT ALL. Have you even seen a really annoying staff or dual-using turtler, who doesn't attack unless to counter your swings? They last a VERY long time unless a single red user yaws past their block.

 

---

 

And what's this about tables? I've never said anything about tables, I only mentioned observation data, which I actually have stored in my head from hours spent playing freaks. My only assertion regarding the data in and of itself is that it is very readily observable and confirmable at higher levels of NF saber play. I mean, do you really need a table to prove that staff and dual have better block, better guard penetration, and better damage/time due to them? Most of what I've stated becomes pretty obvious after awhile.

[ZeroX2]

Gonna make this short and simple.

 

It depends on the user. Generally, staff is easy to spam and get random kills...hence the reason many swarm and use it in a terrible spamming way. They really have no clue how to use it other than spamming. This has caused poor reputation for the staff. Why? Most people have no idea how to use it in a skillfull matter.

 

Groups of people should not lookdown on people for using any saber until they see how they handle the saber. More than likely, it will be another noob staffer, true...but not always.

 

In my case, I taught myself how to master the staff with carefully timed, individual swings...much like using it like a single. No sweeps, no spam, no specials, not even butterfly unless it's absolutely neccessary.

 

There are skilled staffers out there, which is why I'm a popular staffer....I'm no noobsticker. It just takes a lot of effort and skill to pull it off...which is what most are too lazy or unable to practice.

 

Single can kill in one good swing. The trick to survive it is mastering evading and blocking while successfully getting in and out without being touched.

Exactly. ^^

[StaffSaberist]

LV, if I misread your posts, sorry. But that would end the debate, would it not? If we could see the numbers, what defensive/offensive bonuses the moves bring, and if we could compare the sabers, side by side, that would be the end of it. We could display such a thing for all to see, and we would see who is correct. If I am correct, fine. If you are correct, fine. If all of us are wrong to a certain degree, we can all agree that this has been an exercise in futility. I am going to look for them myself.

 

I find it... well... I can't even think of a suitable word for it... wee both base our arguements on what we have witnessed, and what we think. Nobody has actually found hard data on this subject. Well, I am going to try to do that. I will report back, and if I find anything conclusive, I will report back.

 

Again, sorry for letting this get so heated. It is not the Jedi Way, is it?

[Lathain Valtiel]

There are no objective tables for the saber styles short of I think maximum possible damage (Yellow style does NOT consistently do 80 a swing except on head strike, and staff usually pulls around 45-60 a swing unless it gets a headstrike) and animation speed. Everything else is probability-based and random if I recall, with some styles getting a higher observable probability to block/penetrate guard.

[StaffSaberist]

Hm. I didn't find anything, right there. A shame. Somebody should put one together. But yeah, nothing conclusive.

 

About the Staff breaking guard with diagonal hits: True, but not too many duelists hold still. Esp. if they are Blue Style. They try to run rings around the opponent. Heck, I do a lot of Force Jump during duels, it puts space between myself and my opponent, giving me a chance to use Heal/Drain. I never hang around while Red Stylists get a top-down hack on me. That's silly.

 

Speaking of strong side-swipes, holding down the Step Right key (D by default) does a side-swipe in Red Style that does the damage of Red style with the speed of almost Yellow. Then, during recovery, the player can do a backward roll to escape the ill effects of Red Style. You may test that one out for yourself; it works well, and is an excellent way to take 60+ HP of an opponent. And it isn't considered cheap unless that's all you do. If I play Red Style for a while, I use that if my Force Mana is depleted, and so is my health. I do that, and even the game a bit. Heck, that works well vs. Staves, or anything, except that irritating Ugnaught bot that just uses a blaster and runs. I rarely take damage from him...

 

Special non-force draining moves are your friend in combat. Blue style has a bottom-up slice that no other style can do. Yellow style... well, has few Dueling advantages, but is good for multiple opponents, esp. the backwards side-swipe, if you don't use it much.

 

My point is the Single Sabers has tricks up it's sleeve to counter the Staff and Dual sabers, even if those weapons do have more raw power.

[razorace]

There are no objective tables for the saber styles short of I think maximum possible damage (Yellow style does NOT consistently do 80 a swing except on head strike, and staff usually pulls around 45-60 a swing unless it gets a headstrike) and animation speed. Everything else is probability-based and random if I recall, with some styles getting a higher observable probability to block/penetrate guard.

 

Plus, the main factor of doing damage with the basejka system is related to where/how long the saber animation places the blade in another player's body. The basejka saber has no mechinism for materials to resisting or deflect blades after they are hit. As such, the staff animations are set up in a way that pretty much guantrees both blades @ least touching the targets.

[Zyrusticae]

Personally, I despise the whole baseJKA saber combat system. There is an absurd number of illogicities and imbalances throughout the entire system.

 

Play staffsaber for an hour or two. Then switch to single saber blue style. Tell me how 'balanced' it is.

 

Things that annoy me:

Why do the staffsaber and dual sabers have FASTER animations than single saber BLUE stance?

Why does the red stance exist AT ALL? (LIGHTSABERS DO NOT WEIGH 20KG, PEOPLE!)

What's with the horribly inconsistent 'blocking'?

 

Personally, I'll stick with movie battles for my saber combat fix. Base JKA is only fun in single-player.. faaar too many lame saberists for me to enjoy myself. Besides the fact that the sabering system itself is ridiculous in all its forms. It was obviously tailored to the single-player campaign, and not much consideration was given to multiplayer balancing, if any.

[StaffSaberist]

Staff style is faster than Blue Style? I didn't notice.

[Kurgan]

Personally, I despise the whole baseJKA saber combat system. There is an absurd number of illogicities and imbalances throughout the entire system.

 

....

 

Personally, I'll stick with movie battles for my saber combat fix. Base JKA is only fun in single-player.. faaar too many lame saberists for me to enjoy myself. Besides the fact that the sabering system itself is ridiculous in all its forms. It was obviously tailored to the single-player campaign, and not much consideration was given to multiplayer balancing, if any.

 

There's no accounting for taste, but c'mon. If that isn't way off base.

 

The single player system is NOTHING like the multiplayer saber system. And the SP version is much more random and floaty than you'll see in even the laggiest games. Now if you want to talk about cheap moves, take a look at SP with their walking katas and spinning DFAs, etc. The only thing that prevents it from being over in .05 seconds is that the sabers do jack for damage (unless you turn on the carefully hidden morerealistic cvar).

 

And like many other folks, you judge the entire game based on the saber system, as if that's the only type of gameplay that exists.

 

Each to his own, but still, it sounds like you don't even remember what the regular game was like! Is Movie Battles II only about dueling? If not, then the same logic doesn't apply to that one either. There's much more than just sabering to this game...

[StaffSaberist]

Yes, you know, you can usually get the Flechette, AKA "Jedi-Killer", and spike your enemies with sabers. In duels, though, not many have the Jedi-Killer in the map. Hey, we could do that... right? j/k

[razorace]

Personally, I'll stick with movie battles for my saber combat fix. Base JKA is only fun in single-player.. faaar too many lame saberists for me to enjoy myself. Besides the fact that the sabering system itself is ridiculous in all its forms. It was obviously tailored to the single-player campaign, and not much consideration was given to multiplayer balancing, if any.

 

Yeah, that's why I rewrote the saber system for OJP Enhanced.

[razorace]

The single player system is NOTHING like the multiplayer saber system. And the SP version is much more random and floaty than you'll see in even the laggiest games. Now if you want to talk about cheap moves, take a look at SP with their walking katas and spinning DFAs, etc. The only thing that prevents it from being over in .05 seconds is that the sabers do jack for damage (unless you turn on the carefully hidden morerealistic cvar).

I think it's due to the sabers automatically bouncing instantanously into an attack after a blade-on-blade impact. That's why the CPU seems to randomly suddenly just chop into you after a block and kills you.