My KotOR3 Gameplay Ideas

[a_nazgul]

Those are great ideas, but I dont agree with some of the names you sugested for the prestige class, "Bounty Hunter" gives me a negative feeling, almost an outlaw.

"Jedi Force Master" is a senseless name.

I'm agaist penalities for double-bladed sabers for LS, I think that Bastila is(was) a Jedi, at least at the begining, and she used a double saber.

Colour Crystals shoud have bonuses to the differents paths they represent, a blue crystal shoud give some bonus for saber combat, for example.

[Darth Windu]

Modifiers =/= no penalties. You're proposing penalties that simply wouldn't go in well.

Again, we see LS Jedi using double-bladed sabers without trouble in the first two games, why would we need penalties in a third one?

 

Why did we need to be able to upgrade normal Blaster Rifles and Vibro-blades in the second one? Why did we need Influence in the second one? If we had a KotOR series that didn't change anything except the story and characters, how long do you think it would last?

 

Penalties are made to be deterrents, to make you opt for something else, something with bonuses or without disadvantages. This makes perfect sense in the case of Force powers.

Sabers are another subject however as saber skill isn't fueled by the Dark Side or the Light Side.

 

Says you. Where is your evidence? As I have already pointed out, in the films double-blades weapons are used by the Sith while twin single-blades are used by Jedi.

 

I think it is rather dumb to try and apply movie cannon to an RPG that is set 4000 years before the Prequels.

 

lol, and I think it's dumb not to apply movie cannon to the series. What's your point?

 

Nazgul - If 'Jedi Force Master' is a senseless name, then isn't 'Jedi Weapon Master' also? I actually had an idea regarding colour crystals, but I was thinking more along the lines of 'Blue = +1 Dexterity, Yellow = +1 Intelligence, Green = +1 Wisdom, Red = +1 Strength, others = +1 Charisma'.

 

 

On a different topic, I've done some thinking on Rob's suggestion that there ey LS/DS non-Jedi Prestige classes. This is what I've come up with.

- Soldier --> Peacekeeper (LS) / Mercenary (DS)

- Scout --> Commando (LS) / Bounty Hunter (DS)

- Scoundrel --> Smuggler (LS) / Slaver (DS)

 

Thoughts?

[a_nazgul]

You're right 'Jedi Weapon Master' sucks, but I really dont care too much about names, it was just a commentary, so dont give it too much importance.

About the crystals and the LS/DS non-Jedi prstige classes, I agree

[RedHawke]

Hawke - Remember, the player would have to be Jedi, only party members could be a Bounty Hunter.

Windu, I wasn't talking to you. See I quoted LegendaryFett's post.

 

The main reason i came up with this is especially on Korriban in KotOR, there you are in a Sith academy wearing Jedi robes and using Blue and Green Lightsabres, and no-one thinks 'gee, maybe they're Jedi?'

This is easily explained, as you are a Jedi, Yuthura even states something recognising you to that effect, remember that in KotOR I many Jedi had went to the Sith side, so having a Jedi training at the Sith Academy on Korriban wasn't all that unusual. Quite clever on Biowares part using a story point to save themselves some work, IMHO.

 

Says you. Where is your evidence? As I have already pointed out, in the films double-blades weapons are used by the Sith while twin single-blades are used by Jedi.

Well, as far as the Saber Staff being a DS weapon, I might not be LIAYD, but my evidence is clear... The D20 Rules.

 

There are no penalties or restrictions to using any type of Lightsaber in the D20 rules. So the makers of KotOR III will also have to use these rules.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Why did we need to be able to upgrade normal Blaster Rifles and Vibro-blades in the second one? Why did we need Influence in the second one? If we had a KotOR series that didn't change anything except the story and characters, how long do you think it would last?

 

Totally different stories. Since when does upgrading weapons is equal with disadvantaging LS double-bladed saber users?

 

Besides, "it's a change for gameplay" is a poor explanation as to why we see many Jedi use double-blades in the first games and then poof, they shouldn't use it anymore.

 

Says you. Where is your evidence? As I have already pointed out, in the films double-blades weapons are used by the Sith while twin single-blades are used by Jedi.

 

Ok, so where is the evidence that the Dark Side fuels double-bladed saber skill? We see only one Dark Sider use it. Note one.

 

 

lol, and I think it's dumb not to apply movie cannon to the series. What's your point?

 

It's 4000 years before. Things change in 4000 years. You simply cannot apply cannon by the letter. Oh and by the way, if you really want to apply cannon by the letter, there should be two Sith in the game. No more, no less.

 

 

By the way, considering how unpopular that idea is, it is obvious that it isn't the way to go.

[3yks]

I have read the first of the new serie's, but jsut because luke 'thinks' they might have erred doesn't necissarily mean they HAVE erred.

 

And as for 'lucas says ... [insert anything here]' lucas hasn't said a thing since making RotJ that was worth one ioda of crap, next you're gonna claim that the ep1-3 are good movies.

[lukeiamyourdad]

next you're gonna claim that the ep1-3 are good movies.

 

You don't want to say that to Windu

[RobQel-Droma]

A pure, unaltered, simple double-bladed lightsaber has no DS tendencies. It is not a sentient being, and it is not an artifact of the darkside. So why apply penalties to it like it is?

 

Wielding one is a matter of skill, not of alignment. It has nothing to do with your alignment, unless you are drawing from a certain side of the force, and that has nothing to do with the weapon.

 

Says you. Where is your evidence? As I have already pointed out, in the films double-blades weapons are used by the Sith while twin single-blades are used by Jedi.

 

Since when does that have any relevance with what we are talking about? As LIAYD and I have already pointed out, it has nothing to do with an EU game, especially one that is 4000 years before the movies. So what, in the movies you see about 4 total Sith Lords- with only one of them wielding a saberstaff.

 

Come on, in TSL you have Sith Assassins wielding metal sticks and you wielding that mining laser torch thingy (the one you get from the corpse in the Peragus Morgue). And Sith Assassins are never seen wielding anything but metal sticks, and you never see anyone else in the game wielding that torch weapon either. And does that mean that sticks are DS weapons, and mining torches are LS? Absolutely not.

 

next you're gonna claim that the ep1-3 are good movies.

 

I don't know about you, but I actually liked them.

[Darth Windu]

Totally different stories. Since when does upgrading weapons is equal with disadvantaging LS double-bladed saber users?

Never said it had anything to do with it. The point I was making was that just because something wasn't in the previous game doesn't make it a bad idea, which you seemed to be implying was the case.

 

Besides, "it's a change for gameplay" is a poor explanation as to why we see many Jedi use double-blades in the first games and then poof, they shouldn't use it anymore.

*sigh* how many times do I have to explain the same thing? LS uses could still use the double-blade, while DS users could still use twin blades. Same as LS users using DS powers and vice versa.

 

Ok, so where is the evidence that the Dark Side fuels double-bladed saber skill? We see only one Dark Sider use it. Note one.

Never said the DS fuels double-blades sabre skill, just that it was connected to DS users. As for evidence

 

Single-sabre users

- Jedi = too many to count

- Sith = three of four

 

Twin single-blade users

- Jedi = anywhere between 3 and 5

- Sith = None

 

Double-blade users

- Jedi = None

- Sith = 1 of 4

 

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

It's 4000 years before. Things change in 4000 years. You simply cannot apply cannon by the letter. Oh and by the way, if you really want to apply cannon by the letter, there should be two Sith in the game. No more, no less.

Yep, things change. Thats why weapons, ships, propulsion technologies etc are all the same 4000 years later. As for two Sith, the games do actually abide by that. We have

 

Reven and Malak

Malak and Bandon

Traya and Sion

Sion and Nihilus

Traya and Sion

 

By the way, considering how unpopular that idea is, it is obvious that it isn't the way to go.

Just because it isn't popular doesn't make it a bad idea.

 

 

3yks - actually, I think RotS is the best out of the six films. As for what Lucas says, that is opinion, not fact. Irrespective of what you think of him, Lucas = Star Wars.

 

A pure, unaltered, simple double-bladed lightsaber has no DS tendencies. It is not a sentient being, and it is not an artifact of the darkside. So why apply penalties to it like it is?

 

Wielding one is a matter of skill, not of alignment. It has nothing to do with your alignment, unless you are drawing from a certain side of the force, and that has nothing to do with the weapon.

I agree, to wield one you need not be LS or DS. However, the double-blade is, even as Atton points out, a more aggressive weapon that is designed primarily to destroy, not protect. Hence, it is a weapon more in tune with the DS, and so the more DS you are, the more use you will get out of it.

 

Come on, in TSL you have Sith Assassins wielding metal sticks and you wielding that mining laser torch thingy (the one you get from the corpse in the Peragus Morgue). And Sith Assassins are never seen wielding anything but metal sticks, and you never see anyone else in the game wielding that torch weapon either. And does that mean that sticks are DS weapons, and mining torches are LS? Absolutely not.

Irrelevant. The Lightsabre is the weapon of a Jedi, as Obi-Wan points out. All other weapons are just tools.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Never said it had anything to do with it. The point I was making was that just because something wasn't in the previous game doesn't make it a bad idea, which you seemed to be implying was the case.

 

No, I'm implying the inconsistency of your idea.

 

 

*sigh* how many times do I have to explain the same thing? LS uses could still use the double-blade, while DS users could still use twin blades. Same as LS users using DS powers and vice versa.

 

*sigh* How many times do I have to explain that we don't want penalties to double-bladed LS saberists.

 

 

Never said the DS fuels double-blades sabre skill, just that it was connected to DS users. As for evidence

 

Single-sabre users

- Jedi = too many to count

- Sith = three of four

 

Twin single-blade users

- Jedi = anywhere between 3 and 5

- Sith = None

 

Double-blade users

- Jedi = None

- Sith = 1 of 4

 

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

No it isn't. Double-blades don't seem fit to deflect blaster bolts like a single blade. The arena, that shows dual wielding Jedi, might have contained double-bladed saberists who only used one of the two sides of their sabers.

Besides, there is no solid base that double-bladed sabers are only used by Sith.

By the way, it's one Sith. Such a vast generalization is woefully unscientific.

 

 

Yep, things change. Thats why weapons, ships, propulsion technologies etc are all the same 4000 years later. As for two Sith, the games do actually abide by that. We have

 

Reven and Malak

Malak and Bandon

Traya and Sion

Sion and Nihilus

Traya and Sion

 

Hah, weird how you only fought a total of 5 saber wielding Sith in the whole two games.

What was on Korriban? An academy full of Sith !

 

 

 

Just because it isn't popular doesn't make it a bad idea.

 

Usually yes. Marketing says so.

 

 

 

 

I agree, to wield one you need not be LS or DS. However, the double-blade is, even as Atton points out, a more aggressive weapon that is designed primarily to destroy, not protect. Hence, it is a weapon more in tune with the DS, and so the more DS you are, the more use you will get out of it.

 

It was more a question of game mechanics. The double blade does more damage.

We can go as far as saying that two single blades are just as aggressive.

 

 

 

Irrelevant. The Lightsabre is the weapon of a Jedi, as Obi-Wan points out. All other weapons are just tools.

 

How is it irrelevent? He pointed how our logic was actually quite flawed.

[RobQel-Droma]

Irrelevant. The Lightsabre is the weapon of a Jedi, as Obi-Wan points out. All other weapons are just tools.

 

On the contrary, I think it is quite relevant. You are basing it on usage, so did I. In KotOR, most of the weapons/items that are said to be DS or LS, as far as restrictions especially, isn't the lightsaber. Most of them are robes and vibroblades, in fact- not lightsabers. So it is in fact very relevant.

 

Single-sabre users

- Jedi = too many to count

- Sith = three of four

 

Twin single-blade users

- Jedi = anywhere between 3 and 5

- Sith = None

 

Double-blade users

- Jedi = None

- Sith = 1 of 4

 

Seems pretty clear to me.

.

 

*sigh* How many times do we have to tell you that it doesn't matter about the movies? This is KotOR, EU, 4000 years before Luke. Instead of 2 Sith we have 100+ plus Sith, and we have 100+ Mandalorians instead of one, etc. It doesn't matter. Many Sith in KotOR use dual blades, and same with the Jedi.

 

You have ignored this so many times- We are playing KotOR, and in KotOR people use the saberstaff and dual sabers, even to the opposite of the alignment you give them. So why go on about the movies, this is KotOR, and in KotOR LS Jedi use the saberstaff, and DS Sith use dual sabers- A fact which you fail to realize.

 

I don't care if Sith used water balloon launchers and the Jedi used golf clubs in the movies, and neither should you. This is KotOR, as I have said countless times. Stop basing it on the movies! I could give you way more examples as to force-users using the "wrong" saber type than you can give me using the "right" saber type. And since this is EU, it doesn't mean what you are saying about the movies; Not that is irrelevant

[YertyL]

Never said the DS fuels double-blades sabre skill, just that it was connected to DS users. As for evidence

 

Single-sabre users

- Jedi = too many to count

- Sith = three of four

 

Twin single-blade users

- Jedi = anywhere between 3 and 5

- Sith = None

 

Double-blade users

- Jedi = None

- Sith = 1 of 4

 

Seems pretty clear to me.

Perhaps you should not base a general rule on a single observation .... would you say "All swans are black" after seeing one of this kind?

I believe the main reason why we do not see too many jedi using a double bladed saber is that it is difficult to construct and to master, requiring a lot of focus on martial skills, while most jedi prefer to focus on other things and follow the ideal of pacifism.

However this IMHO does not make the construction or use of a double-bladed saber DS - just like being a guardian/weaponsmaster does not make you DS.

 

I agree, to wield one you need not be LS or DS. However, the double-blade is, even as Atton points out, a more aggressive weapon that is designed primarily to destroy, not protect. Hence, it is a weapon more in tune with the DS, and so the more DS you are, the more use you will get out of it.

 

Irrelevant. The Lightsabre is the weapon of a Jedi, as Obi-Wan points out. All other weapons are just tools.

 

Again, all I can say is "Try it out!"

IMO the lesser range and steadier grip make the double-bladed saber better for parrying than attacking, while it is pretty hard to parry with 2 sabers, forcing you to attack rapidly in order to not grant the opponent an opportunity to strike.

Btw. I also think the way double-bladed sabers (and other double-bladed weapons) are handled in the KOTOR games are not too representative ... IMHO the stats should be more like +1 attack, -2 attack malus, +2 defense or something like that...

[JediMaster12]

Leave the lightsabers alone PLEASE!!! I like them just the way they are however I do like the idea of the colored crystals giving bonus to attributes. The support crystals do something similar to the hit and damage bonus.

[Darth Windu]

*sigh* How many times do I have to explain that we don't want penalties to double-bladed LS saberists.

Perhaps. But then politics shows us that people will many times say they don't want something simply because they are afraid of change, and then find out they like it. Aside from that, only a very small sample has said no.

 

No it isn't. Double-blades don't seem fit to deflect blaster bolts like a single blade. The arena, that shows dual wielding Jedi, might have contained double-bladed saberists who only used one of the two sides of their sabers.

Besides, there is no solid base that double-bladed sabers are only used by Sith.

By the way, it's one Sith. Such a vast generalization is woefully unscientific.

Your point about deflecting blaster bolts is exactly my point - the double blade isn't defensive, it is aggressive, which is why it is more in-tune with the DS. As for the arena Jedi, show me a single example of a Jedi using a double bladed lightsabre and I will concede the point. Even if they aren't using both sides, the hilt is quite a bit longer so it should be easy enough to find.

 

Hah, weird how you only fought a total of 5 saber wielding Sith in the whole two games.

What was on Korriban? An academy full of Sith !

and seeing as how I'm a purist, you can tell how much that annoyed me. Really though, they weren't Sith - they were bad Jedi.

 

How is it irrelevent? He pointed how our logic was actually quite flawed.

It's irrelevant because they aren't lightsabres, which are intricately tied to force users. Other weapons are not.

 

Stop basing it on the movies!

What?!?!?!?!?!?! Um, let me think about that for a second - no. EVERYTHING in Star Wars is based on the films. If you don't like it I suggest you get over it.

 

If you can show me a single piece of evidence from the films that says I'm wrong, then show me where it is and, as I said to luke, I will remove this idea and never speak of it again.

 

Just looked at the starwars.com Datbank, which specifically calls the double-blade the "Sith Lightsabre". Link is http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/sithlightsaber/index.html

 

Also says that it was only seen in TPM so luke, I doubt you'll find any Jedi using it in the arean.

 

Finally - still looking for comments about my other ideas, such as the new LS/DS names for non-Jedi Prestige classes.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Perhaps. But then politics shows us that people will many times say they don't want something simply because they are afraid of change, and then find out they like it. Aside from that, only a very small sample has said no.

 

Actually, a lot of people said no, and if you look at the history of the double blade in games, they have rarely been exclusively given to Dark Side users. They weren't in Jedi Academy and they aren't in both KotOR games.

 

Besides, it's a bad idea because it's a penalty against LS double-bladed saber users. It is used to penalize those LS who want to use something they're not supposed to use. There is nothing that indicates that only Sith use double blades.

 

Oh, and by the way, this isn't the realm of politics, it's the realm of marketing and in this realm, popular opinion is the rule.

 

Your point about deflecting blaster bolts is exactly my point - the double blade isn't defensive, it is aggressive, which is why it is more in-tune with the DS. As for the arena Jedi, show me a single example of a Jedi using a double bladed lightsabre and I will concede the point. Even if they aren't using both sides, the hilt is quite a bit longer so it should be easy enough to find.

 

I would search it now, but I'm busy.

Sometime I might look at it more closely.

Also, if "agressive" is in tune with the Dark Side, we should remove the Jedi Guardian and Weapon Master.

 

 

and seeing as how I'm a purist, you can tell how much that annoyed me. Really though, they weren't Sith - they were bad Jedi.

 

Yeah, they learn the code of the Sith, are lead by two Sith masters, have Sith teachers but aren't Sith

You just refuse to see the truth.

By the way, it would be wonderful fun if we only fought two lightsaber wielding opponents in the whole game

 

It's irrelevant because they aren't lightsabres, which are intricately tied to force users. Other weapons are not.

 

Actually, it is. You're saying that a double-bladed saber can only be used by Dark Siders because we see only one of them using it.

Note one.

He says that since we see only one person using a plasma torch, that weapon must be related to the Jedi.

Note one.

He's only applying the same logic of generalization on one person.

 

It's like saying one white man is a racist so all white men are racists.

You're making a very vast generalization based upon one person.

 

 

 

If you can show me a single piece of evidence from the films that says I'm wrong, then show me where it is and, as I said to luke, I will remove this idea and never speak of it again.

 

Your "evidence" and your entire idea is based on one person out of four.

I'm sure you know a bit about statistics as I assume that you've been to Uni and can make a good reasoning. When the sample is so small, you simply cannot make a correct conclusion.

[RobQel-Droma]

What?!?!?!?!?!?! Um, let me think about that for a second - no. EVERYTHING in Star Wars is based on the films. If you don't like it I suggest you get over it.

 

Ummm... No. Everything in Star Wars originated from the films- however, many things in EU are not based on the films at all. The films were just what started it; Everything else went farther with the original ideas. The only thing that is the same is that it still has usually four things: the lightsaber, the force, Jedi, and Sith. Other than that many things are in EU that are not even mentioned in the movies.

 

But then politics shows us that people will many times say they don't want something simply because they are afraid of change, and then find out they like it.

 

This is a video game, Darth Windu. It has nothing to do with being "afraid of change" . It is just that, frankly, it is a stupid idea that doesn't really have any good basis. Not only that, every single person who has replied to this thread has said "no."

 

and seeing as how I'm a purist, you can tell how much that annoyed me. Really though, they weren't Sith - they were bad Jedi.

 

This is where you get inconsistent Darth Windu. What about those guys like the one Sith who talked to Darth Malak on the Star Forge? What are they known as specifically in both games? Answer: "Sith Masters." What about in TSL? Answer: "Sith Lords", "Sith Assassins", "Sith Marauders." Not Dark Jedi Marauder, not Evil Jedi Assassins, - they were Sith. And they are specifically called that in the game.

 

As for the arena Jedi, show me a single example of a Jedi using a double bladed lightsabre and I will concede the point. Even if they aren't using both sides, the hilt is quite a bit longer so it should be easy enough to find.

 

Darth Windu- I've given you many, many examples of Jedi using a saberstaff, and Sith using dual sabers. In fact, from the very game we are talking about! And what has been in the games is way more important than what has been in the movies. Its like taking something from some other EU game or book and incorporating it into another, especially when it violates the rules that the game has been going on from the beginning.

[Darth Windu]

Actually, a lot of people said no, and if you look at the history of the double blade in games, they have rarely been exclusively given to Dark Side users. They weren't in Jedi Academy and they aren't in both KotOR games.

True, but then just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. Take influence in TSL for example. It wasn't in KotOR, JO or JA, yet it is a good addition.

 

Besides, it's a bad idea because it's a penalty against LS double-bladed saber users. It is used to penalize those LS who want to use something they're not supposed to use. There is nothing that indicates that only Sith use double blades.

It isn't just a penalty to LS double-blade users. It would be

- Positive modifer for DS double-blade user

- Negative modifer for LS double-blade user

- Positive modifier for LS twin single-blade user

- Negative modifier for DS twin single-blade user

 

As for 'nothing indicates only the Sith use it', there are in fact two pieces of evidence. A Sith Lord uses it, yet Jedi do not, and it is offically called the 'Sith Lightsaber'.

 

Yeah, they learn the code of the Sith, are lead by two Sith masters, have Sith teachers but aren't Sith

You just refuse to see the truth.

By the way, it would be wonderful fun if we only fought two lightsaber wielding opponents in the whole game

Actually I think it would be more fun to only fight two lightsabre-wielding opponents if playing LS. Bump them up a lot compared to Sion and Nihilus and replace other lightsabre wielders with elite troops or things like the assassins.

 

Actually, it is. You're saying that a double-bladed saber can only be used by Dark Siders because we see only one of them using it.

No. No, no, no, no, no, no. That is not what I'm saying, nor has it ever been. What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.

 

He says that since we see only one person using a plasma torch, that weapon must be related to the Jedi.

Note one.

He's only applying the same logic of generalization on one person.

 

It's like saying one white man is a racist so all white men are racists.

You're making a very vast generalization based upon one person.

No. Lightsabre's are Jedi-specific, other weapons are not, so it's irrelevant. As for the generalisation sure, I am generalising, but given the sample sizes it can't be avoided.

 

Your "evidence" and your entire idea is based on one person out of four.

I'm sure you know a bit about statistics as I assume that you've been to Uni and can make a good reasoning. When the sample is so small, you simply cannot make a correct conclusion.

As said, I agree I'm generalising but it is still a logical conclusion to draw. Of all of the Jedi we see, which would number around 100 or more, only one of them uses a double-blade, with that person being a Sith.

 

 

Rob - again, the films are everything. If EU contradicts the film, then that EU is wrong. As for evidence, great you've given some evidence, but your's is from EU, mine is from the films. Hence my evidence is 'better' in terms of canon.

[RedHawke]

As for 'nothing indicates only the Sith use it', there are in fact two pieces of evidence. A Sith Lord uses it, yet Jedi do not, and it is offically called the 'Sith Lightsaber'.

 

What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.

Sorry, but it seems that you want to argue things to death over a really small issue, one that you simply cannot win, the D20 rules have final say over game mechanics, not the Movies or the EU, and you are talking game mechanics here, so what you are saying won't happen, the D20 rules don't allow for things like this.

 

See this is an RPG, and as such has a rules system, sometimes the source material for an RPG has to be slightly deviated from to fit an RPG Rules system, this is common practice in RPG circles. So Double Bladed Sabers are not affiliated with the DS, nor will they ever be in this system. The saber itself is simply a weapon in the eyes of the game system, nothing more.

 

In the eyes of the D20 RPG, Darth Maul was Evil (DS) his saber was not, it was just a tool. Only by adding in alignment restricted crystals does a saber take on aligned properties, and they can be removed/replaced. So the saber is clearly not evil, only the crystals might be. There is a logical reason for this, as many of the EU characters are written as using a double bladed saber, not all are evil either, and the RPG has to take this into account, even though you don't want to.

 

And for the record I am against catagorizing a normal, non-magical, or non-poisioned weapon class as "Evil", weapons cannot be evil only their wielders.

[lukeiamyourdad]

True, but then just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. Take influence in TSL for example. It wasn't in KotOR, JO or JA, yet it is a good addition.

 

Totally different situation. Influence does not penalize anyone.

 

It isn't just a penalty to LS double-blade users. It would be

- Positive modifer for DS double-blade user

- Negative modifer for LS double-blade user

- Positive modifier for LS twin single-blade user

- Negative modifier for DS twin single-blade user

 

Same difference. Nobody wants penalties for either LS double or DS dual.

 

As for 'nothing indicates only the Sith use it', there are in fact two pieces of evidence. A Sith Lord uses it, yet Jedi do not, and it is offically called the 'Sith Lightsaber'.

 

Strange that you use EU when it forwards your goal. Nowhere in the movie it's called a Sith Lightsaber.

Whoever made that up didn't really think.

Once again, one Sith Lord.

 

Actually I think it would be more fun to only fight two lightsabre-wielding opponents if playing LS. Bump them up a lot compared to Sion and Nihilus and replace other lightsabre wielders with elite troops or things like the assassins.

 

One of the major complaints by the majority of people here about TSL is the lack of force-wielding opponents.

 

 

No. No, no, no, no, no, no. That is not what I'm saying, nor has it ever been. What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.

 

You are. You do realize that penalties are used as a deterrent right? Thus you don't want LS double-bladed users to exist even if technically they can. You simply have no grasp of what penalties are used for in an RPG.

 

 

 

No. Lightsabre's are Jedi-specific, other weapons are not, so it's irrelevant. As for the generalisation sure, I am generalising, but given the sample sizes it can't be avoided.

 

Still doesn't make it less of a generalization, one that is ridiculous considering the sample size and it simply is unconclusive to make such a conclusion based on a 4 men sample.

 

As said, I agree I'm generalising but it is still a logical conclusion to draw. Of all of the Jedi we see, which would number around 100 or more, only one of them uses a double-blade, with that person being a Sith.

 

So now Jedi and Sith are in the same pool? It seems you've just merged two populations to pull out a stat.

 

 

Rob - again, the films are everything. If EU contradicts the film, then that EU is wrong. As for evidence, great you've given some evidence, but your's is from EU, mine is from the films. Hence my evidence is 'better' in terms of canon.

 

Not in a game talks about Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, etc.

Hell, I'll go as far as say that there's a small reference to the Yuuzhan Vong.

It's totally irrelevant to use pure canon "logic".

 

If that was the case, the game would be absolutely horrible, being nothing more then a carbon copy of what it is lightly based upon.

[Prime]

What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.

If a LS player has the required proficiencies (i.e. have the right training), they should be able to use it just as well as any other character. If you really want to discourage somethings use by LS characters for example, make the character face criticism from the "powers that be" (Council or whatever) as they perhaps might in "the real world". But there is nothing inherant about these lightsabers that make them more or less difficult to use by LS/DS characters. Creating such modifiers would not reflect the universe it is sumulating and would be completely artificial.

 

Ventress for example is trained to use two lightsabers and doesn't seem to have any problems, and Bastila has no problems using a double-bladed saber.

[RobQel-Droma]

Rob - again, the films are everything. If EU contradicts the film, then that EU is wrong.

 

In a game that is set 4000 years before the films? No, it is not. It came originally from the films, but everything else are things that have been expanded upon. I gave you evidence from the game we are playing! And you ignore it for the stupid films. I don't care, we are in a discussion about KotOR, not what four Sith did in the movies. And none of this EU contradicts the films, either- So why bring that up?

 

As for the credibility of the evidence, you are wrong there too. Mine, while it is from the EU, is from that same exact game, time period, etc. The evidence from the films, while it is good, is from four, repeat four people, who 1) Are set 4000 years later than the game, and 2) only four, while their are hundreds in KotOR. Who knows, maybe if there was only four, it might be an actual possibility that maybe between the four of them, neither really wanted to dual-wield, and it was just a matter of preference between them.

 

No. Lightsabre's are Jedi-specific, other weapons are not, so it's irrelevant. As for the generalisation sure, I am generalising, but given the sample sizes it can't be avoided.

 

*cough* Then why are Sith Assassins using sticks? And why through half of TSL are you not using a lightsaber? Ok, so they are the weapon of a Jedi. But they are still a weapon. Basically we are arguing about whether a lightsaber is DS or LS. Since it in itself is not, then what really makes a simple lightsaber really different? If the Jedi used plasma torches in the movies, then everyone would be saying "A plasma torch is the weapon of the Jedi." There would be, of course, something that would make the torch "special." And lightsabers would just be some other weapon.

 

Comes my point about the robes and warblades. None of the DS/LS restricted items in the game are lightsabers, they are robes, armor, and headgear, mostly. And the ancient vibroblades are also said to be powerful artifacts, too (although they usually aren't restricted). So what is so special about the lightsabers? They are simple tools/weapons.

 

No. No, no, no, no, no, no. That is not what I'm saying, nor has it ever been. What I'm saying is that since we only ever see the Sith using it, and it's more aggressive, it is linked with the DS more than the LS. LS players would be able to use it the same as they do now, they would just have some penalties.

 

I guess you don't understand this. Who is going to want to use a weapon that has penalties to it naturally because they are of the "wrong" alignment? They can use it, but they won't. People will hate it, because it limits what they can do.

 

As for evidence, great you've given some evidence, but your's is from EU, mine is from the films. Hence my evidence is 'better' in terms of canon.

 

Uh-huh, right. And if the films said that Leia was your mother you'd believe them too. I hate to thing what the game would be if you were producing it. It would be a battle against two single super-powered Sith, with everyone else being simple troops, you couldn't choose your favorite weapon because of penalties, and it would be an absolute rip-off of the movies.

 

Windu, the movies are not God. They do not decide what is right and wrong in a EU game set 4000 years before the films; Especially something as trivial as lightsaber penalties.

 

As for 'nothing indicates only the Sith use it', there are in fact two pieces of evidence. A Sith Lord uses it, yet Jedi do not, and it is offically called the 'Sith Lightsaber'.

 

"A Sith Lord uses it, yet Zez-Kai Ell and Bastila Shan use it too." They use it in the game we are talking about. And Asajj Ventress- Sith dual wielder- Remember that scar on Anakin's face in RotS? It is said to specifically have come from an encounter with Ventress between AotC and RotS. That alone is enough for me, not to mention the amount of other examples I've given.

 

"It is officially called the 'Sith Lightsaber'." And your point is?... That doesn't mean one single thing, if you look at it. It doesn't matter really that it is called that, it doesn't mean that because it is "associated" with them it is a DS weapon. It is just associated with them, like all black robes are associated with the Sith. But does that mean a lightsider can't wear the black Sith robes or use them effectively? No, it doesn't.

 

Say, what was all this about "Sith Masters" not really being "Sith Masters" but being bad Jedi? Even when "Sith" is their official name? And now you are talking about "the official name" for the saberstaff? Come on.

 

As said, I agree I'm generalising but it is still a logical conclusion to draw. Of all of the Jedi we see, which would number around 100 or more, only one of them uses a double-blade, with that person being a Sith.

 

Does it ever tell you that a Jedi in the films doesn't? How do we know, one of them actually might, we just don't see him. In fact, I don't remember seeing dual-wielding Jedi in the arena.

[Darth Windu]

Prime - not a bad idea, meditate on this I must...

 

Rob - as for duel sabre-wielding in the arean, there are a few examples.

1. Right after Obi, Anakin and Padme get blasted off the beat they were riding, in the background there is a Jedi with one blue and one green lightsabre.

2. After Mace gets trampled by the same beasty, there is one, maybe two (I only have VHS so it's hard to tell) Jedi with twin-blades, but you only see them for a second.

[JediMaster12]

We still on this DS/LS penalty thing for dual wielding and saberstaffs? Darth Windu give it up. I think half the people in the forum say the same thing: NO.

They like the current style and I'm in that club. Frankly I'm getting tired of this discussion.

 

*Draws saberstaff and cuts PC to pieces*

[RobQel-Droma]

I guess I'll have to watch closer for those Jedi. But that still brings me back to my point. Look at it this way:

 

1) First of all, has it ever ocurred to you that maybe there were Jedi using the saberstaff but you just didn't see them? I know, it is kind of pointless to say "what if", but still; Just because you didn't see any doesn't mean there wasn't, especially since you only see a few Jedi fighting.

 

2) The whole thing about saberstaff being DS because you only saw Darth Maul use saw doesn't really mean anything. Just because you only see him using it doesn't mean that it is a DS weapon, actually. As I said, out of 4 people, could just be a matter of personal preference, among the Sith and the Jedi.

 

As for evidence, great you've given some evidence, but your's is from EU, mine is from the films. Hence my evidence is 'better' in terms of canon.

 

3) Your's is better? No, its not. My evidence was EU, in fact, it was EU from the same time period, all connected to the game we are talking about, even some from the game itself. Going on the films and saying since because of that it is "canon" and has relevance over everything else is wrong. The films are just films, they aren't games, and just because you generalize a saberstaff into DS because of one person in the films doesn't mean that (a) it is relevant 4000 years ago, and (b) that that person, Maul, is the only one. The game we are talking about mentions and shows people like Zez-Kai Ell, Bastila Shan, etc. And so, in the game we are talking about, Jedi do use the saberstaff, and evidence in the very game we are talking about is better than evidence from four people in the films.

 

No. Lightsabre's are Jedi-specific, other weapons are not, so it's irrelevant. As for the generalisation sure, I am generalising, but given the sample sizes it can't be avoided.

 

4) But it doesn't matter. I was talking about the amount of generalization you were doing, in which it doesn't matter what weapon the Jedi were using, since I am talking about another certain point. It is exactly relevant. I said, one Jedi uses a plasma torch, so it must be LS, right? It doesn't matter that it isn't a Jedi weapon, it is still the same appliance of generalization.

 

5) "Given the sample sizes...."? We've given you many examples Windu, much more than one out of four, yet you ignore them. It isn't that it can't be avoided, its just that you can't get it through your brain that KotOR Jedi/Sith matter just as much, in fact, more than film Jedi/Sith.

 

EDIT: JediMaster12 is right, your idea has only two votes- Frankly, the devs aren't going to put in an idea especially if it has about a 1% minority that says yes.

[Darth Windu]

Rob - actually, my idea has three votes, not two

 

As for Jedi using Sith Lightsabre's in the arena, nope. The offical site says that sabre is only in TPM, and I have never seen any evidence of Jedi using it.

 

 

Jedi Master - fine, I'm actually still looking for comments on my other ideas.