balance

[BattleDog]

GuitarNProgress, you are right that the Jedi and Sith can both create an inbalance. The question is are they both meant to. It is my belief that the influence the Jedi exert can be both posative in the long and short term.

 

To take another example on Na'shadda what about the pilot you link up with the freightor captain. The Pilot was a refugee and trapped in the camp, all you did was find him a job.

 

On Dantooine you help organise the Militia, you didn't do all the fighting themselves, you just showed them the Mercs could be fought.

 

Qui-Gon could have rescued the slaves and led them in a Rebellion that threw down the Hutts but he didn't because he knew what would happen when he left.

 

Most of the time Jedi just help people sort things out for themselves, which restores the balance by removing some inequality. Remember in Episode I the Jedi were not a vital part of the War, they only real fighting they did was with Darth Maul.

 

In Episode II Mace made a mistake, the Jedi should not have gone there and in EP III the Jedi were fighting a Sith Lord, but again they were actually tricked into making the wrong decision.

 

Sith on the other hand do not serve the Force because they will use the any and all ways, Force included, to gain power. They don't weed out the week, they kill everybody! That is why the Jedi fight them and why the Republic can't.

 

We all know what happens when Jedi become arrogant and go off on their own, like in the Mandalorian Wars. The Council did not want to get involved because it was not their buisness, the Republic would eventually have beat the Mandalorians through weight of numbers and ships, once they worked out what they were doing. By going out there Revan made the Republic weak and because of the way he had to fight he lost his soul and became a Sith Lord.

 

Like I saID, Jedi only serve the "good" becaus balance is "good."

[shaded6]

cant balance be whatever you want it to be, if you control your own balance on how the force uses you and you use the force?

 

seth

[BattleDog]

In terms of the Force no. In terms of our existance balance is when oposites are equel, in its ideal form everything would be the same, everyone would be as well off as everyone else etc.

[shaded6]

are they at balance with themselves? everyone else doesnt really matter in your own existance, because they are no greater and no worse, then what you are capable of. this means, they are just as capable.

 

i just found this and i think its hilarious:

 

http://www.templetons.com/brad/smalldarth.jpg

 

seth

[BattleDog]

I don't think a Sith could ever be balanced, megalomania kinda does that to you.

 

I think we've exausted this topic.

[shaded6]

tell me your thoughts on another topic. i have billions of ideas....and i want to know what you want to get into.

 

lol.

 

seth

[GuitarNProgress]

GuitarNProgress, you are right that the Jedi and Sith can both create an inbalance. The question is are they both meant to. It is my belief that the influence the Jedi exert can be both posative in the long and short term.

True, it can. Don't be quit to forget, though, negatives aren't that hard to find.

 

To take another example on Na'shadda what about the pilot you link up with the freightor captain. The Pilot was a refugee and trapped in the camp, all you did was find him a job.

A job that he didn't work for. Sure, he was qualified, but the largest part of receiving a job is consistency and persistance, both of which he lacked. He wasn't smart enough to manage a way out. Besides, who says the ship he flew didn't have a mechanical failure and drift into an asteroid?

 

On Dantooine you help organise the Militia, you didn't do all the fighting themselves, you just showed them the Mercs could be fought.

Ah, but you are wrong my friend. The Mercenaries surely would've won what should've been rightfully theirs. You killed them, not the other guys. You WERE the defense. You rigged up the turrets, you healed the soldiers, you fought on the front lines. Where were they at? Hiding away with a few handfuls fighting? Ridiculous.

 

You want to talk about imbalance? If you never went to Dantooine, what would've happened? The Merc's would've sacked the town with ease. If you ask me, you were the imbalance. You didn't show them they could fight it, you fought it for them. One day there shall be noone there, and because they got away with help this time, next time they shall be less prepared and be expecting, and shall be found wanting.

 

Qui-Gon could have rescued the slaves and led them in a Rebellion that threw down the Hutts but he didn't because he knew what would happen when he left.

Thank you. You just proved my theory. If you ask me, Qui-Gon was unJedi-like there. They want to help people, correct? They're still there suffering, aren't they? Sometimes true strength is killing your loved ones just so they don't have to endure the pain of suffering such as slavery.

 

Most of the time Jedi just help people sort things out for themselves, which restores the balance by removing some inequality. Remember in Episode I the Jedi were not a vital part of the War, they only real fighting they did was with Darth Maul.

If you ask me, the Jedi don't know whether they are coming or going. There's no such thing as helping someone sort something out. They, and they alone, must do it, or you've done it for them.

 

In Episode II Mace made a mistake, the Jedi should not have gone there and in EP III the Jedi were fighting a Sith Lord, but again they were actually tricked into making the wrong decision.

And he was killed, and Anakin started down the Dark path. I must ask, though, tricked? I thought Jedi were incapable of walking into traps without first knowing they were there? The only way they were could be tricked is by releasing emotion, which apparently leads tot he darkside.

 

Sith on the other hand do not serve the Force because they will use the any and all ways, Force included, to gain power. They don't weed out the week, they kill everybody! That is why the Jedi fight them and why the Republic can't.

They don't? Huh. Your wrong? Master takes on Apprentice, said Apprentice then gets strong enough to defeat the Master, and then has his own Apprentice. It's a chain, and while it's deadly, it works. You're guaranteed to be better as a whole. Let's take a WWII reference. The Japanese (Sith) were so strongly devoted to their country (alignment) that they would stop at nothing (nothing ) to win the war, even by kamikaze.

 

We all know what happens when Jedi become arrogant and go off on their own, like in the Mandalorian Wars. The Council did not want to get involved because it was not their buisness, the Republic would eventually have beat the Mandalorians through weight of numbers and ships, once they worked out what they were doing. By going out there Revan made the Republic weak and because of the way he had to fight he lost his soul and became a Sith Lord.

Wrong again, by my notion. The Republic would've never (with like a .001% chance of another "savior") beaten the Mandalorians without Revan. It says it all throughout the games. The Republic were outmatched, and were it not for the prowess of Revan's strategies of War and at part due to a few Generals and the like. Revan was an imbalance. True, he made the Republic weak. However, he delayed the inevitable, what should've happened in the Mandalorian Wars.

 

Like I saID, Jedi only serve the "good" becaus balance is "good."

Lol, you finally lost me .

[shaded6]

"Savior, conqueror, hero, villian. You are all of these things, Revan... and yet you are nothing. In the end, you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone." Darth Malak

 

this implies he {Revan} was ONE with the force he understood. was it the True Force?

 

where is the balance? within himself and how he understood.

 

"And Revan knew that the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, "IN HIS OWN WAY". He left the Ebon Hawk and its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them. {what did he need then?} And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them. Because such attachments are not the way of the Jedi, and they would only bring doom to them both in the dark places where he now walks. Perhaps you shall go there with him, and do battle at the end of all things. Instead, I remained here... and now show others the way." Darth Traya;

 

the way no one else knew?

 

"If you are to truly understand then you will need the contrast, not adherance to a single ideal" Darth Traya

 

ignorance may be bliss to the blind or greedy; ignorance to the Truth is conflict.

 

"It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you." Darth Traya

 

because of a difference in opinion, the balance in the force can only rely on me.

 

 

 

seth

[BattleDog]

GuitarNProgress, we are now suffering a difference of opinion. You abviously have a totally pessimistic view of people. I don't, I believe that if you help some one you show them it can be done.

 

You have an opinion about the pilot which disregards the fact that he's stuck in the camp surrounded by armed guards with no way out and no work permit. He needs your help but afterwards he is capable of making his own way.

 

Dantooine did not rightfully belong to the Mercs, maybe you did do a lot of the fighting but the militia did mix it up properly as well, the rest anyone could have done. A victory will be inspirational, more people will fight next time.

 

Obi-Wan agreed with Qui-Gon and the Council did not reprimand him for interfering.

 

You certainly can help someone do something, if my mum hadn't helped me learn to read then we wouldn't be having this arguement. The idea that everyone has to stand entirely on their own two feet all the time doesn't wash, we're an advanced species that gets by through working together and helping each other.

 

Further if you help someone there's a good chance they'll go on to help someone else, who helps someone else etc. If I ever see you being mugged by two guys I'll be surre not to help.

 

I must ask, though, tricked? I thought Jedi were incapable of walking into traps without first knowing they were there?

 

Incapable? No, never have I seen that. Yes they can sense danger but they often still walk into traps.

 

They don't? Huh. Your wrong? Master takes on Apprentice, said Apprentice then gets strong enough to defeat the Master, and then has his own Apprentice. It's a chain, and while it's deadly, it works. You're guaranteed to be better as a whole. Let's take a WWII reference. The Japanese (Sith) were so strongly devoted to their country (alignment) that they would stop at nothing (nothing ) to win the war, even by kamikaze.

 

You're only talking about Sith in relation to Sith? I was talking about Sith in the galaxey. They kill whoever they want and no one but the Jedi can stand against them.

 

Wrong again, by my notion. The Republic would've never (with like a .001% chance of another "savior") beaten the Mandalorians without Revan. It says it all throughout the games. The Republic were outmatched, and were it not for the prowess of Revan's strategies of War and at part due to a few Generals and the like. Revan was an imbalance. True, he made the Republic weak. However, he delayed the inevitable, what should've happened in the Mandalorian Wars.

 

You seem to be ignoring your own arguement. Revan came along and took over the war doing whatever he had to to win, he did it very quickly as well. Why couldn't another equally brilliant and ruthless tactician emerge? How many times throughout history has a man, or woman risen to the occasion?

 

Joan de Arc? Alfred the Great?

 

By taking control Revan precluded anyone else doing the job for him. Its very easy to say the war would have been lost otherwise without Revan because Revan won it.

 

Ultimately we don't know.

 

The word good is an articulation of a state in which everything is ok, not wonderful, just okay, ticking along, in balance. Evil is anything that upsets the balance. Please don't laugh at me, I' don't laugh at you.

 

Malak and Kreia are Sith, they lie, like pigs in muck.

[shaded6]

just because you dont agree with the Sith, doesnt mean they didnt make good points. and i dont think that Malak would lie to Revan if it were one of their last conversations:

 

"Im... impossible. I... I cannot be beaten. I am the Dark Lord of the Sith." Darth Malak

"This is the way of the Dark Side, Malak - All things end in death." Revan

"Still... still spouting the wisdom the Jedi, I see. Maybe there is more truth in their code than I ever believed. I... I cannot help but wonder, Revan. What would have happened had our positions been reversed? What if fate had decreed I would be captured by the Jedi? Could I have returned to the Light, as you did? If you had not led me down the Dark Path in the first place, what destiny would I have found?" Darth Malak

"I am sorry I started you on this path. But you chose to continue down it." Revan

"I suppose... I suppose you speak the truth. I alone must accept responsibility for my fate. I wanted to be Master of the Sith and ruler of the galaxy. But that destiny was not mine, Revan. It might have been yours, perhaps... but never mine. And in the end, as the darkness takes me... I am nothing." Darth Malak

 

this portrays honesty on both parts: like two old friends exchanging last words because Malak was in his last breathes. and maybe if Malak wouldnt have died, then he would of had redemption and converted back because of that kind of statement, accomplishing balance within himself and the force.

 

and it presents truth that Revan used the Jedi code for Truth, ofcourse, after he was brainwashed; but wasnt that when Revan came back to the conclusion that he once was a Sith Lord, enough to admit he lead Malak down the path of the dark side?

 

you say you are of the Jedi, when if you were you would take in all consideration of the subjects in which the Sith and Jedi are still capable of finding balance. you say you seek balance because it is good? isnt good understanding towards most things; even the redemption of a Sith back to the original teaching of balance?

 

Malak died, but if it werent for Revan, he would have never realized what it was he had done in this life.

 

"Never doubt what you have done. All your decisions have brought you to this point." Darth Traya

 

when Malak realized this, without even knowing it, he realized he was wrong.

 

"Who I am is not the question. Those are titles, words you cling to as the darkness falls around you. "Sith" is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe. For you... it is different." Darth Traya

 

what does this say about Darth Traya, if it werent her stance on not taking associations with either party because of how they saw their beliefs between the Jedi and the Sith; more like Revan, what she wanted to accomplish? and didnt she turn back to the natural ways of the force?

 

"It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you." Darth Traya

 

i came to bring peace, not judgement.

 

seth

[BattleDog]

I have no idea what you just said. Can we please start dealing with one idea at a time.

 

What is Truth with a capital 'T'? You keep using it and I don't know what you're talking about.

 

FYI I never said I was of the Jedi, or the Sith, or anything.

[shaded6]

first, you called the two Sith, liars. "Malak and Kreia are Sith, they lie, like pigs in muck."

 

i'm using them as an example that even the Sith have their own ways and thoughts about everything, even though they may have not been considered wise, their thought process cant instantly change, thus leading back to balance.

 

Truth:

 

Conformity to fact or actuality.

A statement proven to be or accepted as true.

Sincerity; integrity.

Fidelity to an original or standard.

 

Reality; actuality.

often Truth That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.

 

"I'd rather be a Jedi, they seem to have a better health plan as well." battledog

 

so yeah its not saying that you said you were a Jedi, but it says that you would rather be one; why cant this involve the way you look at things also, especially towards the Sith?

 

seth

[GuitarNProgress]

Wrong, I am not pessimistic, I'm just counteracting what you are saying. Every action makes an echo in the force. By giving someone something the didn't earn or didn't deserve, you are weakening them. That's like giving someone Jedi Powers that were impossible to grow any stronger with them at their maximum. (Just bare with me) Now, with their new power, what are they most likely to do? Take advantage of it! As put before, the Journey is the reward, and the teaching is in the journey.

 

Now, I'm fine and dandy with helping people, but often enough when you help people (in KotOR ofcourse, I don't share this opinion in general for real life) by doing a good deed, a bad deed is also done, unknowingly or not. One of the game's easily most enlightened characters (Kreia) explains this all throughout the game if you listen. And hell, I think I'd rather listen to someone that has stood in the Light and killed by the Dark. My entire point though, is that just because you help someone, it doesn't mean that you are strengthening them.

[shaded6]

i have a quote for this: 2 actually.

 

"Never doubt what you have done. All your decisions have brought you to this point." Darth Traya

 

"And what is it you think you have accomplished? If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken yourself... and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards. You stole that struggle from them, cheapened it. If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognise the value in letting them fight their own battles. And when they triumph, they will be even stronger for the victory." Darth Traya

 

we have to learn that our actions are echos in the force, especially when a Sith is born.....

 

seth

[BattleDog]

While I do agree with you I think Kreia pushes the ultra-pessimistic view. I also think that you need to remember that she is evil and trying to force you down a path you might not want to walk.

 

I don't deny that doing things for people weakens them but I believe that helping them can alow them to grow stronger. Lets say you were being beaten up by three guys in the street, now I could help you, but according to you that would weaken you.

 

The chances are that without help you will lose anf they'll take your money. All you learn is that helping people is pointless because they never help you. Now lets say I do help you, I can't beat up all three guys and neither can you but together we might manage it.

 

What have you learned? That helping people is worth it because someone was there to help you. I haven't weakened you because the experience wouldn't have made you stronger, just more pessimistic.

 

So you are following a pessimistis view, whether you know it or not.

[shaded6]

the only time i would have been weakened is if you were there, could of helped, and not; weakened as i mean, beaten to a bloody pulp. but this also doenst mean i cant win, if i know how to fight, which could make me stronger in my victory. just because three guys try to jump me doesnt mean they have to succeed. there are options. give them the money. use your head and get atleast 2 on the ground and walk away, if you can. fight with you and take all 3 of them on and possibly win. or run because one of the dudes happens to have a gun and you really dont feel like dying....either way, he shoots, your dead.

 

i dont walk down the path of Kreia, because i can fall into her way of thinking, how Sith become Sith; one reason. but that doesnt mean she doesnt make good points.

 

"a wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding stall attain unto wise counsel." proverbs 1:5 no, i am not ashamed of this.

 

seth

[Master Kan-Maz]

Bah.

 

The Gray Side studys both ways.It's best.

[shaded6]

i think there should be no particular way, except your own. yeah, you need to know the force well enough to understand it, thats why most of us are taught bu the Jedi, but this doesnt mean we have to live for their cause.

 

balance relies on me, in how i think, what i do, what i know, and i how i use it. in everything that i do.

 

thanks for joining the conversation Master Kan Maz

 

seth

[BattleDog]

I totally disagree, whether you want to follow all the rituals and traditions the Jedi and the Sith embody the only workable viewpoints, i.e. you CAN be a Sth, not that you'd want to.

 

There has never been an example of a successful inbetween.

 

Besides a "Grey" Jedi is still a Jedi, just not quite as nice.

[Jae Onasi]

Being a gray Jedi is like saying you're just 'a little bit pregnant'.

You're either dark or light.

 

Jae Onasi is hereby granted +100 Kewl Points ~ ChAiNz.2da

 

Edit: Heh, I need all the Kewl Points I can get.

[PoiuyWired]

not really, you can't have triplets in light side...

[BattleDog]

Being a gray Jedi is like saying you're just 'a little bit pregnant'.

You're either dark or light.

 

Jae Onasi is hereby granted +100 Kewl Points ~ ChAiNz.2da

 

Thats what I meant, they're light. The difference is they don't go in for all the rules and following the Council, they still follow the code though.

[shaded6]

but just because i am taught by the Jedi, doesnt mean i have to be a Sith if i dont follow them. and just because i know the force and arent of the Jedi, doesnt mean i have to use it for evil. sure, we are all capable of becoming Sith, just as much as the Jedi who did, but does this mean that i have to serve the light side or the dark side because i know the force? do i have to if i walk away from the Jedi and find a greater understanding of the force, "for myself?" no.

 

what am i serving then when i learn what the force truely is? the force.

 

Sith and Jedi, they are their own ways, they have their own codes and they walk their own path. if i want balance for myself i need to know myself.

 

"Peace is a lie, there is only passion."

 

peace is possible because the Jedi found it. passion for balance can lead to it.

 

"Through passion, I gain strength."

 

because through passion i find what i want, who i am, who i can be and what i am capable of.

 

"Through strength, I gain power."

 

because i have Mastered myself.

 

"Through power, I gain victory."

 

because it only matters if i win or not or succeed in what i want to accomplish.

 

"Through victory, my chains are broken."

 

because in that moment i found balance within myself.

 

"The Force shall free me."

 

because i let it.

 

"There is no emotion; there is peace."

 

because i controlled myself by wanting something greater.

 

"There is no ignorance; there is knowledge."

 

because i realized that ignorance can destroy my quest for greater knowledge.

 

"There is no passion; there is serenity."

 

in my passion i find serinity because i can control what i am doing when i seek for balance.

 

"There is no chaos; there is harmony."

 

because i sought harmony in myself, chaos cannot exist to me; just around me. do i let it effect me if i am true with what i am trying to accomplish? no. because it can lead to the dark side and i know that.

 

"There is no death; there is the Force."

 

because the force has taught me to live.

 

seth

[Jae Onasi]

In a nutshell:

Sith philosophy: Serve yourself only by whatever means possible--"it's all about me!"

Jedi philosophy: Serve others--helping others become better in life helps you to become better in life as well.

The 2 philosophies are mutually exclusive. You cannot serve yourself utterly completely _and_ serve others at the same time. If I'm a Sith doing whatever I want to advance my personal agenda, even if that means hurting or destroying others, then how is that helping others at the same time along the lines of the Jedi code? If I'm busy destroying people, then I'm incapable of helping them. You cannot take two diametrically opposed philosophies and combine them to make some watered down middle of the road kind of philosophy. You can do one or the other, but not both at the same time.

[BattleDog]

Yup. Some might be better at adhering to one code or the other but you can't be both.