zalcron Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Is it just me or do you think the begining of Palps fight with Mace and his 3 other JEDI was really bad? they just stood there and took it, only Mace put up an actual fight. Totally wasted opportunity to show what a bad ass he was, its like they were all on drugs as it was not as if he was moving mega fast or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cercueil Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 that was a true Bloody hell!! moment if i ever saw one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zalcron Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 it is was a true bloody stupid moment imo, it was better in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cercueil Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 when is a movie ever better than a book? what I took from that scene was a startled surprise from the ones who bought it...even mace seemed surprised at the dexterity of palp...and that he was obviously expecting them. the four marched in liked they owned the place not realizing what they were truely up against. however, i would have liked to see a bit more skill presented from those "masters," but it played out as it should, i suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Terros Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Wasnt that stupid they didnt really know what to expect it must have come as quite a shock when he lept out of nowhere and cut them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zalcron Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 i just dont buy it they just stood there and watched, how can these so called 'masters' not react quicker. It was not a total suprise as Anakin wanred Mace that Papls was very powerful, no wonder the JEDI all got wiped out, being that complacent and slow they deserved no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Terros Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 i just dont buy it they just stood there and watched, how can these so called 'masters' not react quicker. It was not a total suprise as Anakin wanred Mace that Papls was very powerful, no wonder the JEDI all got wiped out, being that complacent and slow they deserved no less. The jedi arnt superheroes and not all of them were great swordsmen plus palpatine moved incredibly fast and it was a small area he attacked them in *a door way* if the jedimaster were to start throwing their sabers around they'd probably more likely hurt each other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Sidious was just better than them, I think Kit Fisto and Mace fought realistically though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Source Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 How about the slow motion of Mace's hand when Anikan cut it off... That was so horrible. There should have been more effort. The actor for Palpatine is a theater major. I believe the commentary stated that he was not trained to do fight scenes, so they made it easier on the actor.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 A stuntman did alot of the fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zalcron Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 The jedi arnt superheroes and not all of them were great swordsmen plus palpatine moved incredibly fast and it was a small area he attacked them in *a door way* if the jedimaster were to start throwing their sabers around they'd probably more likely hurt each other Incrediably fast? are you having a laugh? yes he jumped over fast but then he slowly stabed the first JEDI whilst the one who he had his back to just stood there and watched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cercueil Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 you know, youre really not goign to find the answer you want....they were stunned, amazed, dumbfounded, awstruck, urinating on the floor, etc. over thought on the matter could have easy had palp use some type of Mind trick on them. sure, it was tough, but compound the element presented of surprise could have made them more atune to it. anakin talked to mace....perhaps mace was better prepared for it. he did just stand in the back ground, though, perhaps he was stunned, but was able to move back. bottom line is that, for whatever reason, Palp was able to dispatch the jedi that came for him easily. the reasons why are going ot be left to speculation....and since this is a makebelieve story we can come up with all kinds of things. maybe, perhaps, their shoes were too tight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fealiks Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 A stuntman did alot of the fighting. not true, George Lucas wanted palpatine to do all of it. although the actor is, as MacLeodCorp said, crap at swordfighting, most of the shots shown palpatine's face. George realy wanted the audiance to realize the anger and facial expressions in his (palpatine's) face. oh and i dont mean to be rude or anything but zalcron could you stop capsing "jedi", its kind of annoying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 not true, George Lucas wanted palpatine to do all of it. although the actor is, as MacLeodCorp said, crap at swordfighting, most of the shots shown palpatine's face. George realy wanted the audiance to realize the anger and facial expressions in his (palpatine's) face. No, Ian McDiarmuid did not do all of it, they talk in depth on the special features of the ROTS DVD about the whole sequence and the stuntman used in place of Ian. Of course it was Ian in the more closeup shots in the fight but I'd say half of it is the stuntman. You can clearly see that the actor is not Ian when Mace disarms Palpatine and he crawls quickly to the corner of the windowframe. Don't go around trying to disprove someone unless you know for a fact that what you are saying is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirLancelot Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 The slaying of the Jedi so easily by Palpatine was meant to be symbolic, in my opinion. The Jedi had become weak in the force(as Mace Windu had said in Episode II). Complacency, arrogance. These had diminished the Jedi Order's effectiveness. While the Sith had been cultivating their strength. When Palpatine took the Jedi down so easily, it was meant to show the end result of the corruption of the order constrasted with the emerging power of the Sith. When the Sith finally revelaed themselves to the order in full strength, the Jedi were not prepared. That was always my take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zalcron Posted January 26, 2006 Author Share Posted January 26, 2006 lol clearly we are never going to see eye to eye on this so i guess it is best to agree to disagree. I am under no illusions that the jedi had become complacent and hence why sidious' scheme worked, my niggle is with the actual mechanics of that intial fight. Like i said before the book made him out to be a dark shadow much more powerful in than that scene gave him credit for, but as someone said films rarely do credit to books. I just feel the intial pre-Mace part of that fight could have been carried off better. I guess my problem is i am having a hard time detaching myself from the written version of that fight. Still, nice to have a debate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyoi Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 I think that as they were going to arrest him, they knew he was a sith lord, but they probably still had doubts on how poweful he really was. I think it's safe to say that sidious had more training than the 4 jedi combined, therefore he had more dexterity, they were caught off guard, except windu. Lucas probably just wanted to show how powerful he was compared to the jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 ...I think it's safe to say that sidious had more training than the 4 jedi combined... Um, no. Thats pretty doubtful considering Palpatine probably spent most of his time throughout his life on his political career, he would not have had much time to train. Whereas the Jedi spent their whole lives training their Jedi skills, and Mace was roughly the same age as Palpatine. We don't even know when Palpatine started his Sith training, it might have even been after he had begun his career in politics, so no, it is not safe to say that he had more training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Palpatine is the most powerful sith in modern times. Added to the fact that hardly anyone on the Jedi council had even encountered a Sith before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 They still fight like idiots. He slooowly stabs at the first guy (Agen Kolar) who doesn't even block, he just grunts as he gets stabbed. The other guy doesn't block either, he just gets cut down and doesn't even try to fight. Kit Fisto lasts about 3 seconds, at least he TRIES. If he was mind tricking the Jedi Masters somehow, it didn't work on Mace (character shields?). It was just a badly done scene I think... oh well. How would I have done it? I'd have just made him come out blindingly fast, smashing their blocks away and cutting them up in a few seconds to show how powerful he was, not just having them stand there and let him kill them, which is basically how it came off as. Or if Lucas really wanted to have been in your face, he could have had Palpatine raise his hand at each Jedi who would then suddenly be frozen in place while he cut them down. Then have when he comes to Mace, his power gets blocked and then they fight normally or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 I agree Kurgan, Lucas did not handle the first part of that scene well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkodeon Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 I think that if they really tried, Palpatine would have been dead. Look at it, Palpatine wasn't very fast. When he went to stab what'shisface Agen Kolar, it's shown that he pulls back and stabs in. That's more than enough time to block and defend. If the four Jedi Masters were to circle him, Palpatine would surely have been dead. I really doubt that THOSE four Jedi Masters were weak and complacent; Kit Fisto led an assault on Mon Calamari, and single-handedly destroyed a giant beam thingy. (A LA Clone Wars. Canon, you know.) Saesae Tinn led the space assault in many missions. Agen Kolar...well...I don't exactly know what he did, so he could have been killed off. But we're talking about members of the Jedi Council. They would not be on the Jedi Council if Yoda and the rest thought that they would not be able to be more powerful than regular Jedi Knights. What shocks me is that Anakin WARNED the four that he was dangerous, and to be weary. Plus, if all four Force Shoved him out the window, that would be the end of him. They being stoic was just a way to get to the Endgame; GL should have thought of something better. D: EDIT: And a side-note: Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader) was the most powerful Sith, not Palpatine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zalcron Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 thank you gentleman, thats what i have been trying to get across all along the start of the fight was bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachineCult Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I think that if they really tried, Palpatine would have been dead. If Anakin hadn't interupted then Palpatine would be dead and there wouldn't be any of this stupid NJO business. EDIT: And a side-note: Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader) was the most powerful Sith, not Palpatine. He was probably the most powerful of all the force-users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Lucas painted himself into a corner with this one. He had to have the Jedi confront Palpatine, which they wouldn't do alone, (so there had to be more than one of them there....) but also get down to a one-on-one fight, which is more dramatic, and far easier to film and stage. There are a couple of "in-universe" clues in the ROTS novelization and movies which point to why he was able to dispatch with them so easily: a.) He was so powerful with the Dark Side that it clouded the Jedi's abilities, and stunned them all, with the exception of Mace. This was hinted at in Ep. II, and also when Obi and Anakin got captured on Grievous' ship. His mere presence diminished their force abilities. b.) None of the Jedi were trained to handle another force-user, and hadn't been training against other saber wielders. Only the Jedi descended from Yoda's training (Yoda, Dooku, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin... and I'm not sure where Mace fits in there) took the threat of the return of the Sith seriously, and were the only ones truly prepared to fight against someone trained in the Jedi arts and armed with a lightsaber. Everyone else had been practicing to fight against opponents armed with blasters. c.) They never expected him to fight back against obviously superior numbers. The real reasons for eliminating the rest of the Jedi Masters right off the bat are far simpler though: it makes for a much better movie. Notice that Lucas always pares down all the lightsaber duels to a one-on-one conflict almost immediately. In Ep. I Obi-wan is taken out of the fight early so that it's just Maul and Qui-Gon, and he doesn't catch up until Qui-Gon is down. In Ep. II first Anakin is down, then Obi-Wan, then both are down when Yoda appears. In Ep. III Dooku lays the smackdown on Obi-Wan pretty early, so that it's just Anakin left. It's an obvious trend. A one-on-one fight is far easier and quicker to shoot, not to mention far, far easier on all the stunt coordinators, fight choreographers, stunt people and actors. Plus the fact that the other Jedi in that scene are all aliens. You never really see a non-human Jedi fight the way the human ones do, not even in the Ep. II arena battle scene. Why? You try seriously fighting in a heavy, bulky, hot foam-rubber suit that blocks most of your vision and restricts your movement dramatically. Plus, 5 minutes of serious athletic fighting in suit like that on a hot soundstage under thousands of watts of film lighting, and you'd better have the paramedics handy, since you are going to pass out from heat exhaustion and dehydration. You could replace them with CG characters... but that's highly expensive and time consuming, and since all that you really want to get to is the far more dramatic one-on-one battle of Windu vs. Sidious, that would end up most likely being very expensive fight footage that got cut in the interest of time, anyway. It was also a cramped set. There wasn't a whole lot of room to have an extensive 5-person fight anyway, as this was supposed to be an office. At that point in the movie the momentum has built to a crescendo... that fight is really just there to provide Anakins real turn to the dark side, anyway. You really don't want a huge fight at that point in the movie as a film maker, anyway. A huge saber fight at that point would probably take away from the drama of the final, ultimate showdown of the Mustifar duel. Those are the real reasons why the Jedi didn't fight back... the unfortunate realities of making a film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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