Flaws I've seen in the mod...and suggestions

[RpTheHotrod]

Posting at the request of Kurgan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heya, I duel all the time. Heck, even do it in real life.

 

First thing is first...

 

The block system, well, is fine if that person is able to actually block in reality. For example, swinging at someone dead on....of coarse you would block. However, if you hit someone in the back where there is absolutely no way to defend it, it should do SOME sort of damage. At the moment, the character magically blocks a rear attack by sticking his saber out to defend in the completely opposite and far away direction.

 

At the moment, the mod encourages just spamming until they run out of magic DP. It might work if DP was actually working when it is possible to defend.

 

If you cleary hit, it should be a hit. At the moment, aiming, footing, and mobility means nothing. You just simply spam away until they run out of magic DP. It involves no true skill at all.

 

Today, I joined for the first time. I did not read anything. I fought and was completely unable to be beaten. I fought against someone who "knows" this mod. Another guy came in. I even went afk for 2 minutes to grab a drink and the guy was STILL swinging at me. He did zero damage.

 

Eventually I got bored and decided to try all fists. I punched my opponents to death while I dodges their swings.

 

So then I tried throwing in force. The lightning can kill within seconds. If they turn on absorb, just wait till the absorb sound is gone and fry away.

 

However, I heard that force has yet to be balanced.

 

 

 

Overall, if they leave themselves undefended, and you hit, it should reward you with a hit. It doesn't mean a kill, but a hit. The whole magical blocking DP system is a strange idea....but hey, it might work well if you implement it where the blocking system truly works with blocks.

[razorace]

Hits with a fully lethal lightsaber don't make much sense. The player would instantly would be dead or at least out of the fight with a serious wound.

 

In essense, DP IS your health. As for the blocking system, I didn't add a rear attack penalty due to some issues with the way the hit detection detects saber hits. There's situations where clipping/simply being close allows a player to hit a techically "rear" area. I think I've determined a way around the issue but I haven't implimented it yet.

[JRHockney*]

Alright, first read the newly posted manual that I made for the MB2 site to clear some things up. Once you learn how the game was meant to be played, you might actually enjoy it.

 

The block system, well, is fine if that person is able to actually block in reality. For example, swinging at someone dead on....of coarse you would block. However, if you hit someone in the back where there is absolutely no way to defend it, it should do SOME sort of damage. At the moment, the character magically blocks a rear attack by sticking his saber out to defend in the completely opposite and far away direction.

 

Razor had reasons for doing that, but I'm pretty sure that back hits will cost double DP damage or more (I say more personally until some kind of back block animation can be devised).

 

At the moment, the mod encourages just spamming until they run out of magic DP. It might work if DP was actually working when it is possible to defend.

 

If you cleary hit, it should be a hit. At the moment, aiming, footing, and mobility means nothing. You just simply spam away until they run out of magic DP. It involves no true skill at all.

 

Thats because you were running non -stop and kept running out of FP (which make you swing slower when this happens) and running makes your FP gain stop (which is why I was walking around all the time) Staff also uses 4 FP per swing compared to 1 FP per swing with single saber. Running also increases your chance of mishaps x2 (which is why you lost your saber alot and got knocked over alot. To be clear, and I should have mentioned this on the server: THIS SYSTEM IS MEANT TO PROMOTE WALKING AND SABERING LIKE IN THE MOVIES not running and jumping in circles with red style being too afraid to block like in base saber combat. One of my next suggestions to razor ace will make this even more obvious.

 

That fact that you only ran around and were just lucky enough to do enough DP damage with the staff (which is very strong btw) a few times does not mean this system lacks skill. I means that you were fighting mostly noobs with a weapon thats better at swing spamming then them (and has the unbalanced hilt bash).

 

Today, I joined for the first time. I did not read anything. I fought and was completely unable to be beaten. I fought against someone who "knows" this mod. Another guy came in. I even went afk for 2 minutes to grab a drink and the guy was STILL swinging at me. He did zero damage.

 

B S, I beat you several times and you didn't really start winning again until you started using force lightning or grip (which as you said, is not balanced yet {forcepowers in general}. razor is focusing on the saber system right now, so it's best not to spam them). Those first couple time you won where due to my own stupidity and not fighting swingspamming noobs (or hilt bashing,) in a while. The other people you beat where mostly noobs who don't know the saber system yet either. This gives staff an advantage because it has more DP than other styles and is easy to swing spam.

 

However, our fighting did tell me that the hilt bash is a bit unbalanced and needs to be fixed. Thanks for spamming it! LOL! Its not impossible though, I was able to get through it several times.......then you lightninged me! LOL

 

Eventually I got bored and decided to try all fists. I punched my opponents to death while I dodges their swings.

 

This will be changed in the next build most likely if you read the saber suggestions thread. Razors planning on making hits on malee do 40% DP damage (which should help a lot). And btw, most of you Malee was in combination with lightning.

 

So then I tried throwing in force. The lightning can kill within seconds. If they turn on absorb, just wait till the absorb sound is gone and fry away.

 

However, I heard that force has yet to be balanced

 

Agreed

 

Overall, if they leave themselves undefended, and you hit, it should reward you with a hit. It doesn't mean a kill, but a hit. The whole magical blocking DP system is a strange idea....but hey, it might work well if you implement it where the blocking system truly works with blocks.

 

This conclusion is only based on not knowing how the saber system works and being lucky enough to get away with swing spamming staff for a lot of rounds (only a few with me, then the lightning {I thought I had to go somewhere so I fought a little more spurradically at first than usually}). Staff still needs balancing and the fact that you only used staff makes your review extremely baised and incomplete. If you used anything else, I wasn't there for it and now one really taught you how to fight anyway; which they shouldn't have to since you could have read about the changes.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Hilt bash IS unbalanced. It has more range and side hit area than it looks.

[JRHockney*]

Hilt bash IS unbalanced. It has more range and side hit area than it looks.

 

Very much agreed. I seem to hit the second it starts moving and it almost seems to block as well. This needs big fixing.

[Kurgan]

Razor, I was there while RP was playing (I got him to join, thanks RP!) and I noticed a few other things.

 

I was apparently unable to disable weapons in Duel mode. I used g_weapondisable 524279 which I THOUGHT was the way to do it, and restarted the map a half a dozen times, but you could always use fists and pistol. Is it broken in Enhanced or is there another way to do it?

 

The Docs are way out of date for this release. I realize I once volunteered to update the docs, but remember that was for Basic, not enhanced (this was the first time I'd played it in several versions). On the server I notice it rotates into the other gametypes (like Siege) which I thought Enhanced wasn't really made for.

 

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Enhanced essentially a dueling mod? Other weapons are unchanged, so they really just throw off the game balance because sabers take too long to kill somebody in this mode (since in a FFA, CTF, or Siege game you need to be able to chase down people by running and kill them quickly or spam attacks to guard areas). So really it should be limited to sabers only FFA and/or Duel or PowerDuel I would think, right?

 

Sadly I couldn't stay in the server long because my computer kept overheating and crashing (hot Nashville weather and poor air conditioner power).

 

Finally, I should say, I really need the CFG file you're using on the current server with the VSTRs if you want me to do any adminning. I can't really change settings without goofing up the cycle since I don't know what's being used here.

 

Also, you should clarify which settings we should use, since the Docs make it sound like we need sv_fps 50 or 100 (not 20) and cl_maxpackets to equal sv_fps (instead of being set to 30 while sv_fps is 20). Also "g_debugsabercombat" does nothing and is apparently not a valid command anymore.

 

Is there still a parry button or is it always automatic? In our test it seemed like, yes, any hit while your sabers are out just depletes your DP, and you auto block. You auto dodge without saber out. Now I'm not 100% clear on all the Enhanced features, but so much has surely changed since version 0.0.2 b4 (in the docs) that I'm way in the dust...

 

Even though MB2 shares some lineage with OJP (heck, RP tells me even JA+ has its own new saber system now) it's not identical. Nor need it be identical, but something solid that works is appreciated, especially with lag to consider. If it's dueling only, fine, but then the server should be setup for that, IMHO.

 

Anyway, Enhanced shows promise. I can't say I particularly like new saber systems for JA, but that's besides the point. Hopefully my comments were at least a bit helpful!

[JRHockney*]

Sadly, I don't think you got a very good example of Enhanced at its best today, Kurgan. It's suppose to be alot more movie like than it was today! LOL! I should have just told everyone to stop running and instructed them on the features, but I didn't think I would stay that long. Obviously you really need to know how to parry well or wait until that lose half their FP in order to stop staff and dual swing spam. Hopefully, my manual that I just posted as a thread will help answer some of your questions about the system.

 

heck, RP tells me even JA+ has its own new saber system now

 

Its actually not really new at all, its just base saber combat with a few new moves and features. Keshire did fine work with those new moves btw..... at least I think he made them.

[Kurgan]

My problem is I've been away too long from Enhanced. I barely understood the saber system in the beginning and it's changed so much now. It makes sense to me, but I agree, it feels a little too artificial in some aspects how you sort of just have a shield you have to beat down before you can sneak in the one hit kill. Cinematic perhaps, but has a very contrived feeling. I can understand the coolness in bashing through their defences to get a killing blow in, but that just didn't come out tonight.

 

Also the settings were off. I would have kept it on dueling maps in either duel or FFA mode and toned down the force and weapons (something I never do, but in this mod it's warranted).

 

Yeah RP was explaining the new system to me over IM just now. I was shocked to learn he could put it together such that it didn't require a client mod download, but then I guess you are more limited with what you can change if it's all server side. I'm sure more people would use enhanced if the new saber system could be made server side. But who knows, I'm not the coder...

 

Btw, JRHockey, what in-game name did you use? I'm sorry I was so distracted...

 

So you're saying the MB2 system and the current OJP Enhanced system are the same? Or just similar enough that the same stuff applies?

[razorace]

However, our fighting did tell me that the hilt bash is a bit unbalanced and needs to be fixed. Thanks for spamming it! LOL! Its not impossible though, I was able to get through it several times.......then you lightninged me! LOL

Hilt Bash fix suggestions?

 

This will be changed in the next build most likely if you read the saber suggestions thread. Razors planning on making hits on malee do 40% DP damage (which should help a lot). And btw, most of you Malee was in combination with lightning.

Actually I was thinking that this might have to be done for all body dodges since the current 30 DP cost seems to require 4-5 swings to kill instead of the originally planned 3 swings. It think it's because 3 x 30 = 90 + a little regen results in 4-5 swings.

 

I was apparently unable to disable weapons in Duel mode. I used g_weapondisable 524279 which I THOUGHT was the way to do it, and restarted the map a half a dozen times, but you could always use fists and pistol. Is it broken in Enhanced or is there another way to do it?

Nope, you gotta use g_duelweapondisable...just like in basejka. It's so you can have different weapon settings for duel and non-duel gametypes.

 

The Docs are way out of date for this release.

Where?

 

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Enhanced essentially a dueling mod? Other weapons are unchanged, so they really just throw off the game balance because sabers take too long to kill somebody in this mode (since in a FFA, CTF, or Siege game you need to be able to chase down people by running and kill them quickly or spam attacks to guard areas). So really it should be limited to sabers only FFA and/or Duel or PowerDuel I would think, right?

Nope, it's supposed to be for all gametypes. I just haven't gotten to the guns or force powers yet. However, I just had a submission of new weapon speeds/damage levels that will probably end up in the next release. These weapon speeds are designed to look like the speeds used in the movies.

 

Also, you should clarify which settings we should use, since the Docs make it sound like we need sv_fps 50 or 100 (not 20) and cl_maxpackets to equal sv_fps (instead of being set to 30 while sv_fps is 20). Also "g_debugsabercombat" does nothing and is apparently not a valid command anymore.

Uh, suggestion on where I should place that information since noone ever reads the docs?

 

As for g_debugsabercombat, it only works in debug as far as I remember. I didn't want people cheating with it in the normal releases.

 

Is there still a parry button or is it always automatic?

It's automatic.

 

Its actually not really new at all, its just base saber combat with a few new moves and features. Keshire did fine work with those new moves btw..... at least I think he made them.

If JA+ has a new saber system, that's news to me. From my discussions with slider, I thought he was just working on other stuff.

[JRHockney*]

No problem I was distracted as well, and so mad I could hardly fight intelligently at all! LOL!

 

I was Master Jon Hoc Ni. Fight me sometime again and I'll show you how all the things in the manual work in a real fight. Because every one was running tonight, it obviously didn't look very cinamtic. You should watch me and razor fight sometime. Its pretty cool to watch. I only wish I could use MB2 sabers for this mod with that huge glow and make it look even cooler.

[razorace]

Also the settings were off. I would have kept it on dueling maps in either duel or FFA mode and toned down the force and weapons (something I never do, but in this mod it's warranted).

*sigh* People don't listen when I tell them that the force powers/weapons haven't been balanced yet. If you use either in a saber battle, OF COURSE ITS GOING TO BE WEIRD!!!

 

Anyway, I'm surprised you think something is contrived when the basejka system often consists of who lands the first butterfly (which isn't exactly an attack move in the first place!).

 

Yeah RP was explaining the new system to me over IM just now. I was shocked to learn he could put it together such that it didn't require a client mod download, but then I guess you are more limited with what you can change if it's all server side. I'm sure more people would use enhanced if the new saber system could be made server side. But who knows, I'm not the coder...

mmm, we will see. Slider hasn't been spending that much time on JA+ lately and he's only mentioned non-saber system related stuff to me. As for running Enhanced in server-side only mode. I considered it but it would be flat out too much of a hassle to do. Plus people would just CONTINUOUSLY whine about how knockdowns didn't look right, how the sabers totally freak out when they are thrown, etc. It would be a nightmare.

 

So you're saying the MB2 system and the current OJP Enhanced system are the same? Or just similar enough that the same stuff applies?

Uh, no. It was originally modded from an older version of the code.

[razorace]

Hocky, you REALLY need to get an IM so I have some idea of when you're online.

[JRHockney*]

Hocky, you REALLY need to get an IM so I have some idea of when you're online.

 

I don't even know what IM stands for or what it is! I might a little bit about files, java, and archiving, but I'm web feature retard! LOL I'm assuming its some kind of traceble ID feature right? Does AOL have it? This forum?!

 

Hilt Bash fix suggestions?

 

I'm still thinking about this one. But maybe I'll lay down a few ideas off the top of my head.

 

1. Maybe lessen the range.

 

2. Maybe cause the dodge meter to activate when you hit it like kick (if it doesnt do this already, which I could have sworn it blocked tonight)

 

3. or you could get creative and do somthing like, "if you hit the hilt as it's bashing, it causes a knock down and causes the staff to be frozen on its single saber setting for 30 seconds or so; kind of like darth maul getting his saber malfunctioned rather than chopped in half. Obviously, we can't do the saber chopping in half because we don't have an animator, but this might be a cool alternative (but a lot of work probably).

 

4. When ever you add the absorb kick with backflip ( if you do) or parry direction, you could do the same for hiltbash.

 

Actually I was thinking that this might have to be done for all body dodges since the current 30 DP cost seems to require 4-5 swings to kill instead of the originally planned 3 swings. It think it's because 3 x 30 = 90 + a little regen results in 4-5 swings.

 

OK, that works too. It might make duals go a little faster though, which might not be a bad thing.

 

I have a quick fix idea for lightning and grip spamming (which was very annoying today) make it so that as long as you have your saber out and are not in any kind of mishap or slow bounce, lightning and grip have no effect on you. If you are in a mishap, and someone uses them, you can press push and knock them over. This should do until we get to actually working on cool stuff for the force powers. With this idea though, it might be cool to search for a saber mod that has lightning sorrounding the saber and implement that effect just for when you get lightninged and "block it."

 

Either do that or jost make absorb cost alot less FP. But then again, what would dark jedi do?

 

Anyways, I'm tired. Goodnight. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzz

 

Huh! What! Oh yeah, I almost forgot.

 

Kurgan, make sure RP reads our responses if you can. Much to learn about this saber system he still has. k goodnight

 

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz

[razorace]

I don't even know what IM stands for or what it is!

Instant Messenger, like MSN messenger, ICQ, or AIM.

 

4. When ever you add the absorb kick with backflip ( if you do) or parry direction, you could do the same for hiltbash.

Not yet. But that will work for the hiltbash once it's done.

[Kurgan]

*sigh* People don't listen when I tell them that the force powers/weapons haven't been balanced yet. If you use either in a saber battle, OF COURSE ITS GOING TO BE WEIRD!!!

 

Anyway, I'm surprised you think something is contrived when the basejka system often consists of who lands the first butterfly (which isn't exactly an attack move in the first place!).

 

I knew the Force powers/weapons thing was unfinished/supported, that's why I was trying (unsuccessfully) to disable them. Thanks to my inexperience with hosting "dueling" servers I just didn't know the right commands (until now!).

 

All the systems are contrived in some way, I know, and no offense intended. It's just that we can try and move it to something that's not only balanced, fun, and works with lag (a real trick!) but almost might be a bit more realistic (even though ultra realism isn't really desirable in any game anyway). Just throwing stuff out here, it was really late at the time of post too!

 

mmm, we will see. Slider hasn't been spending that much time on JA+ lately and he's only mentioned non-saber system related stuff to me. As for running Enhanced in server-side only mode. I considered it but it would be flat out too much of a hassle to do. Plus people would just CONTINUOUSLY whine about how knockdowns didn't look right, how the sabers totally freak out when they are thrown, etc. It would be a nightmare.

 

I see. So for the sake of getting good feedback, just demand people get the client. Fair enough...

 

Uh, no. It was originally modded from an older version of the code.

Okay, I thought that's what happened but recent comments made me think otherwise. No prob...

[ensiform]

a suggestion to add to CheckTeamBalance in g_main.c:

 

	else if(G_CountHumanPlayers(-1, -1) <= 1)
{//local server 1 player only so we dont care
	return;
}

 

so this ignores the auto balance if your playing by yourself. cuz if it is on and you score it will send you to other team <_<

[razorace]

All the systems are contrived in some way, I know, and no offense intended. It's just that we can try and move it to something that's not only balanced, fun, and works with lag (a real trick!) but almost might be a bit more realistic (even though ultra realism isn't really desirable in any game anyway). Just throwing stuff out here, it was really late at the time of post too!

Well, my school of thought is that we can't be fully realistic since we're not Jedi who are playing a video game and we don't have the best controllers for playing saber combat.

 

Plus, there's the issue of newbie/fairness that does override some of the realism factor. For example, in this mod, we made it possible to block all attacks from any direction as long as the player is able to block (which is most of the time) as long as they have the DP to do so. This does a couple of things.

 

1) It makes it so you can kill someone without completely draining their FP. This was a problem in the original concept of Fatigue.

2) It prevents the frustration of not having perfect control of the swing animations (you're always going to be missing the incoming saber since you don't have enough saber control).

3) It allows players to survive a few swings even if they completely suck. One hit kills don't make anyone happy and it really turns off new players. This is the main reason why it's pretty difficult to get a one hit kill

4) The sabers are VERY LETHAL so we had to have a game mechanic that would keep all duels from being one hit kill fests (which isn't realistic either). Dodge allows realistic duels and still allows a player to kill their opponent quickly if they completely out class them. Right now, I think most players haven't figured out the system enough to be skilled enough to do that. As the creator, I've been able to do it against the TABBots but not consistently yet.

[Kurgan]

So we're really setting aside a portion of 'realism' in favor of game balance and fun. That's fine, so long as its being admitted. If people can understand the design philosophy behind the mod better, we can give better feedback. So thanks for that explanation...

 

I realize also 'realism' is a loaded term in regards to Star Wars. Granted, we're not real Jedi and never will be. All the guys we see fighting in the movies are supposed to be awesome and fighting for their lives, etc, not just some guys having a good time online. The dueling philosophy is another important aspect. I keep telling people that this mod really isn't for Siege or CTF, because it just isn't designed for that kind of thing.

[razorace]

Well, it should be appliable to Siege and CTF once everything has been balanced. Granted, killing a running objective carrier would be tough...maybe you shouldn't be forced to walk to block or something.

[Vruki Salet]

I went on a serve today and had a few duels. I noticed a few things about the sabering, besides that I still suck. For one thing the staff is now useless, as at least for anyone who'se used staff before. Swinging is way to restricted, costs too many FP or something.

 

Second is that there's got to be a way to afford to keep swinging. Like some successful hits, perhaps counterswings that match and hit the opponent's saber, should give back FP and prevent being frozen or slowed. And there needs to be more feedback on what's happening. I can't learn the right moves if I never know what they did, if they worked. I want to parry so I use the movement keys but I don't know if it's working. I'm stuck in an autoblock pose all the time and feel like I'm spamming nothings.

[JRHockney*]

I went on a serve today and had a few duels. I noticed a few things about the sabering, besides that I still suck. For one thing the staff is now useless, as at least for anyone who'se used staff before. Swinging is way to restricted, costs too many FP or something.

 

I agree that the staff costs too much. It sems like the only way you can win with it is to turtle really badly until your opponent is out of FP or swing spam and hope you do enough damage before you run out of FP (RP was really good at this by the way). You can also hilt bash alot and win that way.

 

Second is that there's got to be a way to afford to keep swinging. Like some successful hits, perhaps counterswings that match and hit the opponent's saber, should give back FP and prevent being frozen or slowed. And there needs to be more feedback on what's happening. I can't learn the right moves if I never know what they did, if they worked. I want to parry so I use the movement keys but I don't know if it's working. I'm stuck in an autoblock pose all the time and feel like I'm spamming nothings.

 

To parry any high swings, I push back (s). It seems more consistant than the side keys (a and d). Remember that the parrying buttons are inverted for back and forward. You can also press diagnal combinations (like a and s) for the proper direction of swing, but as long as it's within one space of the right direction, it will still parry. I add more later maybe, but right now I have to go. Good luck.

[razorace]

I agree with the FP swing cost being too high for the staff. I'm planning on rebalancing the staff using Hock's suggestions to try them out.

[JRHockney*]

I agree with the FP swing cost being too high for the staff. I'm planning on rebalancing the staff using Hock's suggestions to try them out.

 

You da man!

[JRHockney*]

Hocky, you REALLY need to get an IM so I have some idea of when you're online.

 

Got one! Its for AOL. Anyone who wants it can P.M. me. As to avoid spammers.

[razorace]

Sweet. You might want to edit your AIM name out of the post now to avoid spammers.