Rallies against immigration reform

[rccar328]

Just check out what they got in Israel...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Israelwall.jpg

 

Now that's what I call a fence.

Yeah...now that's what I'm talkin 'bout...

 

And it'd be a heck of a lot better than what we've got now:

 

And in a lot of places, we don't even have that...there's either nothing guarding the border at all, or just a simple barbed-wire fence.

[toms]

MOst countries in the world have unguarded borders. I'd have thought its dead easy to walk from the top of europe to the bottom across dozens of borders without once seeing any sort of border guard (and it would have been exactly the same 10 or 20 years ago before the EU merging took place too),

 

I'm not keen on this new world where every country is srrounded by a 20 foot high concrete wall...

[ET Warrior]

I'm not keen on this new world where every country is srrounded by a 20 foot high concrete wall...

You aren't the only one. I think the fact that we HAVE a fence is ludicrous, and the idea of building an actual wall makes me want to throw up.

[Master_Ginn]

I agree that we need to tighten up the border, but I'm not sure that a wall is the best idea. I'm all for people coming to this country, but legally. Perhaps lessen then process of becoming a citizen will encourage more people to become a citizen. And in turn make our need for more border control smaller. This is wishful thinking of course.

[rccar328]

You aren't the only one. I think the fact that we HAVE a fence is ludicrous, and the idea of building an actual wall makes me want to throw up.

How do you propose we fix things, then?

[ET Warrior]

How do you propose we fix things, then?

I propose that you don't need to fix what isn't broken.

[rccar328]

I propose that you don't need to fix what isn't broken.

But our immigration system is broken...that's the whole point.

[Joe©]

Anyone that says there is no problem is just lying to themselves.

 

One of the things that makes me mad are the people that say "they do the jobs we don't want to do" whoever first came up with that is just so full of ****, sure, some people may not want to be farm workers or construction workers. But the main fact is that when illegal immigrants get jobs, they are paid MUCH less than an American would be paid. This may be good for the employer (more profits) but its just plain WRONG to pay people that little.

 

That and the amount of money they suck out of the government, and send home, it really makes my blood boil just thinking about it.

 

I live in Texas and see first hand how illegal immigration works over the system. I actually live in the part of town that most immigrants live, and the effects are not good. The amount of money that they are paid (along with them sending money orders home to good 'ol Mexico) leave them a very small amount to live off. This means that there are large slums on the east end of town. Those that have their family’s here can't really keep food for them all the time, so they send them to school for breakfast and lunch so that they only have to feed them some chips and a snickers for dinner.

 

Also, another peeve of mine is the amount of crime that comes with them, as far as I know not many criminals come over the boarder, but illegals carry a large amount of cash money on them (since they can't be paid the normal way because they are illegal) so they are prime targets for each other and the punks of our own society.

 

Anyone want to see these horrid living conditions? I will be more than happy to post pics. They are turning this part of town into another Mexico down here in Austin. Unlike some I am most unimpressed with what’s going on.

 

Sorry if this post seems spastic. I will be more than happy to explain anything I can...

[ET Warrior]

they are paid MUCH less than an American would be paid. This may be good for the employer

You're clearly fooling yourself if you don't think that YOU are benefiting directly from the low wages paid to those people doing those jobs. If we eliminated the illegal immigrant work force we can expect to see a drastic increase in the cost of almost EVERYTHING.

[rccar328]

You're clearly fooling yourself if you don't think that YOU are benefiting directly from the low wages paid to those people doing those jobs. If we eliminated the illegal immigrant work force we can expect to see a drastic increase in the cost of almost EVERYTHING.

We're already paying that cost in the form of services to illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, illegal aliens used $10 billion more in services than they paid in taxes in 2002. Their study also showed that if we offered amnesty, that amount would likely increase to around $29 billion.

 

The argument that getting rid of illegal immigrants would raise prices sounds good, but it just doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

[rccar328]

MOst countries in the world have unguarded borders. I'd have thought its dead easy to walk from the top of europe to the bottom across dozens of borders without once seeing any sort of border guard (and it would have been exactly the same 10 or 20 years ago before the EU merging took place too),

 

I'm not keen on this new world where every country is srrounded by a 20 foot high concrete wall...

But I haven't heard of any European nations having to deal with millions of illegal immigrants entering their nations every year and mooching off of their social services without paying their taxes...

[ET Warrior]

illegal aliens used $10 billion more in services than they paid in taxes in 2002.

Wow. ten billion dollars? I can play with numbers too though. Lets imagine that we lose our illegal immigrants, and therefore costs of things WILL rise. Lets use Apples as an example at the moment. In 2004, the average US consumer consumed 49 pounds of apple products. That's an estimation though, so lets be conservative and say 40 pounds. Then lets imagine that apple prices rise by only 25 cents (another very conservative increase, when the workers replacing the immigrants will be demanding salary at least twice what is paid now). Assuming the US population is 290,000,000 that means it will cost US consumers 2.9 billion dollars in apples alone. This is using very conservative numbers and guestimates, My guess is the price increase would be closer to a dollar a pound. But even if my numbers were correct, there's still a whole lot of other produce, and a whole lot of other services that we pay for. Do you think that cost won't exceed 10 billion dollars?

 

It could easily reach the hundred billion plus of dollars mark.

[ewok mercenary]

But I haven't heard of any European nations having to deal with millions of illegal immigrants entering their nations every year and mooching off of their social services without paying their taxes...

 

Can't say I'm surprised. Anyway, I'm not entirely sure about nations on the continent, but the United Kingdom receives large numbers of illegal immigrants, enough for it to be a fairly heated political topic over here at any rate. Considering that we're surrounded entirely by water, I expect that other European countries receive far more illegal immigrants.

[ET Warrior]

And yeah, the center of the US isn't that populous...because it's where most of the farming takes place.

And who do you think DOES a lot of that farming? There are a lot of farmers who wouldn't be able to feed their families without the immigrant work-force. I KNOW a lot of farmers who wouldn't make a living without them.

[toms]

But I haven't heard of any European nations having to deal with millions of illegal immigrants entering their nations every year and mooching off of their social services without paying their taxes...

 

I have no figures to base it on, but i'd be willing to bet that far more illegal immigrants enter the EU each year than the US... definately on a per capita basis if not in total.

Though of course the EU has recently expanded to include a lot of poor eastern european countries so the citizens of those countries are now legally entitled to travel within the EU.

 

The US has 1 border with mexico. The EU has dozens of borders with Eastern Europe and Africa... so i'd guess we have as many desperate neighbours as you. But i still don't want them to start building walls everywhere thanks.

[lukeiamyourdad]

You aren't the only one. I think the fact that we HAVE a fence is ludicrous, and the idea of building an actual wall makes me want to throw up.

 

 

Thank you. The idea of building a wall makes bad memories come back up. Berlin anyone?

 

Sure, it wasn't exactly to stop people coming in, but such walls are just reactionary solutions that just make you look bad and ends up doing nothing. A wall didn't exactly stop smugglers from getting people out of the USSR or out of North Korea. I don't think it'll stop people from getting in.

 

According to the study posted by rccar, if amnesty was given, it would automatically increase the drain on the federal government. The author claims that it is due to the low level of education of the immigrants and it lowers their skills. He also says that many illegal immigrants are greatly skilled.

 

This is quite a moot point and I must say the study only offers a rather short sighted vision of everything if not only an aspect or one side of the coin.

 

Immigrants who are highly skilled are the ones who do not need to resort to illegal ways to enter the US. Often, it'll be companies who seek them out in their home country to bring them back to the US to work. At other times it'll be just regualr folks, fleeing for political reasons but happen to posess a degree in something. They probably represent only the legal immigrants.

 

Low-level of education is drain on the economy? Well, the US already has a problem with their own citizens who are in the same situation. What happens to them? We try to give them an education. Now, explain to me how we couldn't do the same to the immigrants?

He also says that the drain is largely due to the children born in the US from the immigrants and their automatic citizenship. Can't these children grow up and become good honest US citizen? A bit optimistic I admit, but it is a possibility. Of course, it's going to be over the course of a long period.

 

I'd like to get back to the race card. Although I'm not too fond of it, it is necessary to mention that it is largely used in Europe when unemployment rates rise. It casts blame on immigrants and makes them scapegoats for the often angry mobs. Strangely, it coincides with the rise of the far-right in many european countries. Just something I wanted to mention.

[Mike Windu]

This has absolutely nothing to do with race.

 

It's interesting that I had a socratic on illegal immigration and now this pops up...

 

but anyway, my general opinion is... we need to fix illegal immigration.

 

and Mexico.

 

The reasoning behind the flood and Mexodus is that, well.. you've got your family starving on one side... and about 200 ft on the other side is a job and some food...

 

Problem 1: Illegal Immigration is Mexico's 2nd highest source of income. Right behind oil.

 

Something's wrong here.

 

Problem 2: As someone said, immigration process is extremely ridiculous. It took my brothers about 2-3 years each to get here.

 

Now... let's go back... your family's starving... and you've put in an application form. But so have 500000000000000000000000 other Mexicans. Waiting, waiting, waiting, but to no avail. You've got to do something or else you'll die. And so will your family.

 

Welcome to America!

 

Problem 3: Government does nothing to limit corporations on illegal immigrant abuse. As I stated in another thread: Wal-Mart was fined 11 million for hiring illegal immigrants. They even got off easy because they claimed that "they didn't know" and that it was the people they hired that hired these immigrants, not the corporation itself.

 

Wal-Mart makes 350 billion in sales profits each year. 11 million is a prick on the index finger.

 

Solution: Higher government control on hiring of illegal immigrants, a logical guest worker program (visas, etc), ease the immigration process, introduce need-based immigration (similar to college processes - give aid to those who need it first.), and fix Mexico. If not amnesty, give immigrants already here who have shown clear intention on getting jobs and good work and have a clear criminal background a visa or something.

 

That's my opinion for now, but I'm still not to sure if I follow it completely. More revisions may come.

[toms]

It would be in the US's interest to help mexico develop a stronger economy. Just a thought but what about some form of free trade zone between mexico and the US where companies could get tax breaks or something and also use the cheap labour of mexico... with some of the tax going to the US and some to Mexico - and the cheap labour being able to stay in mexico?

 

Sounds to me like there are two "amnesty" plans. The republicans want everyone to leave and then re-apply. The democrats want those that are here to pay a fine and back-taxes and then be allowed to stay.

 

The second seems more practical. And i suppose you could set requirements like they have to have worked or not committed any crime.

 

It seems to me that a lot of these people would be admitted anyway under a sensible, FAST worker scheme - so it makes sense to let them stay and make that official providing there are no public interest reasons to not want someone.

[Mike Windu]

There's no realistic way to ship 8 million people out of the country overnight and have them apply for citizenship.

 

I don't care for them paying a fine, as most illegal immigrants are working hard enough as is.

[Joe©]

True there is no fast way to ship 8 million people out. But as far as I know that?s not what the current immigration bill calls for, and all Hispanics are protesting that bill right now.

 

@ET

I never said that we do not benefit from the illegal workforce. But just because it makes it easy for us does not make it right. If you HAD to have money and I was going to pay you 5 dollars an hour for hard labor does that make it okay just cause you need the money? No. I would still be cheating you.

 

And by the way. If you give them amnesty and make them citizens. Guess what happens!?!? They are now American citizens and entitled to all the rights and privileges that we are! No more cheap labor! And if you leave them here they will keep on sucking off the government. To those that say that people come across because their kids are starving I agree, it?s sad.

But there was a reason we require people to apply to come into the country. It?s so that the economy can adjust.

Now take all the numbers mentioned and more and think about it.

 

11 million people enter the country illegally in 10 years! They take numerous government programs. And they send a large amount of money back to Mexico. Then in the cities that were just fine, suddenly they have to expand at a crazy big rate. Public schools have to expand to pay for their kids to go to school. Roads have to be built. Hospitals have to give free health care.

 

Those are a few down sides.

 

Well on the up side... we get cheap labor. Where we cheat people that hardly have a high school education and don't speak English to do work for a fraction of the cost.

 

If the Mexican government spent more time fixing its problems and less time *****ing at the U.S. for not putting water stations up in the Arizona desert for illegals then they might have less of a problem

 

Switching tracks?

 

Why did the south want to keep its slaves? Because it would be extremely hard to stay afloat if you have to pay a whole bunch of people for their place.

 

Why do we want cheap labor? Because it would be extremely hard to stay afloat if we have to pay normal wages to these people!

 

Again does that make it okay? Nope.

 

Oh yeah another problem I just remembered. (What?s new?)

 

When an immigrant comes here, and goes into business for himself (lets say air conditioning and electrical) they do not pay for any of the licenses or fees that regular self employed people do (They also do not follow the air conditioning and electrical codes that make it where anyone that has the standard schooling can fix it easy, these codes also help prevent building fires and keep equipment from failing as fast).

These fees are pretty hefty. So what happens? The person that plays by the rules and spent all that money on schooling goes under. While the guy that skips out stays in business. And here you can?t say that these are jobs that no one in America wants, lots of people do these jobs and are very happy (cough)

And no one would say driving professionals out of business with cheap and shoddy work is good.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Why did the south want to keep its slaves? Because it would be extremely hard to stay afloat if you have to pay a whole bunch of people for their place.

 

 

So that's why slavery should still be legal?

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

So that's why slavery should still be legal?

The South was s*** for many, many years after the US Civil War that (technically) freed the slaves. I'm sure some people at that point wished it was still legal. I don't think Joe© was saying he wished slavery was still legal (I hope).

 

In any case, that's not that great of a comparison, the South's economy at the time was reliant on farming, whereas the US's economy now isn't reliant on the jobs illegal immigrants have. In actuality, I'd say the increased number of jobs here in the US for US citizens may actually cancel out any losses Wal-Mart companies here may suffer as a result of paying their employees more.

[Joe©]

I was not saying that slavery should be legal (off topic but claifying) I was simply saying that there we have two sources of labor, free/cheap. Many people were/are willing to overlook the fact that the workers are being exploited because it keeps prices down.

 

Like I said. Its still wrong.

[Mike Windu]

You misconstrue the argument. No one's said that we should continue to exploit them.

 

We all know that using people without proper pay is wrong.

[Joe©]

Nope no one said that. But by saying we need the labor, that is refusing to do anything about the problem.

 

You're clearly fooling yourself if you don't think that YOU are benefiting directly from the low wages paid to those people doing those jobs. If we eliminated the illegal immigrant work force we can expect to see a drastic increase in the cost of almost EVERYTHING.

 

Implying what? We should keep paying them low wages and preventing them from becoming more than a permanent underclass?

 

This is what my cheap labor argument was about for the most part. We know its wrong but are not doing anything about BECAUSE of the fact that we are benefiting.

 

I hate to only criticize so I will say what I think needs to be done (like anyone cares)

 

First problem is to fix the boarder. There is no point to deporting people if the boarder is not fixed. They will just keep coming (I heard about one guy that had crossed 20+ times) anyway, hire more boarder security, cameras, fences, walls. Whatever it takes to slow them down.

 

Then start deporting, its not pretty, its not nice, but we have to wake up and see, THEY BROKE THE LAW! what happens when I I break the law? I go to jail. What happens when they break the law? They get government handouts! Do I suck off government programs? Nope. But hell, my taxes are still going up. Do they suck off government programs? Yes, And guess what? they don't even pay taxes! Double standard eh?

Anyway back to deporting, It won't be fast. It would not be possible to deport all the people, and I think it would be bad to take them all away anyway, just enough to ease the economy and discourage people from coming across.

 

Start making sure they get good wages. Oh darn we are going to have to pay a lot for our lettuce, well that sucks, but oh well. The moral highground is what counts hmmmm? And I'm sure they can feed their familles with more money eh?