Israel/Lebanon situation

[rccar328]

There is evidence that Israel is not responsible for casualties in Qana - the building was shelled eight hours before it collapsed. Israeli military warned civilians to leave the area prior to the shelling. There is speculation that the building collapsed either from structural instability after the initial shelling, or from the subsequent explosion of Hezbollah munitions being stored in and/or under the building.

 

Also, Palestinians are wantonly using dead bodies to spread propaganda in the press.

 

The thing I find most disgusting is the condemnation of Israel and defense of Hezbollah terrorists. Israel is criticized again and again for killing civilians, yet they are going to some lengths to issue warnings before bombing raids.

 

Compared to Lebanon, civilian casualties in Israel have been extremely low. Why is this? Perhaps because Israel allows its citizens to find cover in bomb shelters, while it is in Hezbollah's best intersts for civilians to be killed. In fact, Hezbollah has even been preventing civilians from leaving villages in Souther Lebanon.

 

Hezbollah is fighting dirty, yet all of the blame lands on Israel...it makes no sense.

 

Even the argument that "it was their land first" doesn't hold water. Let's see...the areas that Muslims control in the Middle East include Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and others. Yet these Muslims are given leeway for heinous acts because they're pissed off that they had to give up what, in comparison, is a tiny little sliver of land on the Mediterranean coast.

 

The thing that gets me the most is the "proportionate response" argument. Should Israel have kidnapped two Hezbollah terrorists and left it at that? Should the US military, in the interests of proportionality, be torturing, beheading, dismembering, and booby-trapping 'insurgents' in Iraq?

 

Condemnation for Hezbollah in this forum has pretty much been limited to "Hezbollah is bad, but..." if there is any condemnation at all. How about this: Hezbollah is evil, and even if Israel did "steal" their land, that doesn't excuse suicide bombings, hiding among the civilian population, using hospitals, mosques, ambulances, and even UN outposts as shields, and the indescriminate firing of unguided rockets into villages. Accusations of "collective punishment" seem to assume that the Israelis are purposely targetting civilians, when the evidence shows that Hezbollah is purposely keeping the civilians around in order to score PR points (which, by the way, is against the Geneva Conventions). If anyone is "punishing" the people of Lebanon, it is Hezbollah, who is using the innocent Lebanese civilians to make Israel look bad.

 

And by the way, TK, I don't know if you noticed in that wiki article about the 1996 shelling of Qana, but this little tidbit was in there:

According to a U.N. report, on April 18, three Hezbollah fighters stopped outside the compound and fired two Katyusha rockets and eight mortars at Israeli soldiers near the so-called Red Line (the northern limits of the "security zone") from areas about 200 meters southwest and 350 meters southeast of the United Nations compound. 15 minutes later an Israeli unit responded by shelling the area with M-109A2 155 mm guns.

So it looks like Hezbollah tactics haven't changed much: they've been using the UN and civilians as human shields for more than ten years now.

[TK-8252]

There is evidence that Israel is not responsible for casualties in Qana - the building was shelled eight hours before it collapsed. Israeli military warned civilians to leave the area prior to the shelling. There is speculation that the building collapsed either from structural instability after the initial shelling, or from the subsequent explosion of Hezbollah munitions being stored in and/or under the building.

 

So if you're saying that the Israelis didn't even kill those people, why are they apologizing for it? They admitted to doing it.

 

Also, Palestinians are wantonly using dead bodies to spread propaganda in the press.

 

No question they're doing so. It's similar I guess to Faux News spreading propaganda for the Republican Party.

 

The thing I find most disgusting is the condemnation of Israel and defense of Hezbollah terrorists.

 

It is just mind-blowing how neocons just HAVE to see the world in black and white. "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists."

 

For some reason, condemning Israel for their war crimes means that you are defending Hezbollah's actions. I say they're both ****ed up, and they're both screwing over the Lebanese people. Israel is just ****ing everything up twenty times more than Hezbollah could ever be able to do so.

 

Israel is criticized again and again for killing civilians, yet they are going to some lengths to issue warnings before bombing raids.

 

What's the point of warning people if all the people left in the town don't have cars, can't afford taxis, and all the roads are bombed anyway??

 

It's sorta like if you leave a message on someone's front door that says "hi, you better leave your house now, because we're gonna come and kill you and your family if you're inside."

 

It somehow makes going into that person's house and murdering them not so bad because you warned them, and they didn't leave.

 

Besides, dropping leaflets is just telling all the Hezbollah guys to leave the town too. So it defeats their whole point of bombing the town.

 

Hezbollah is fighting dirty, yet all of the blame lands on Israel...it makes no sense.

 

Who are the ones shelling and bombing populated Lebanese towns... that would be Israel. The Israelis are the ones killing all the Lebanese civilians. If you were being held hostage in a house by some kidnappers, and the SWAT team that is dedicated to rescuing you decided that they would just demolish the entire house with you still in it, would you have kind feelings towards the SWAT team that's about to kill you? I'd hope not.

 

Yet these Muslims are given leeway for heinous acts because they're pissed off that they had to give up what, in comparison, is a tiny little sliver of land on the Mediterranean coast.

 

Yeah, a tiny little sliver of land that is home to Islam's third holiest site.

 

If it's such a tiny little piece of land, then why don't the Israelis just decide to be the better people in all of this and say that it's not worth this never-ending conflict and give the territory back?

 

BTW, as a self-described conservative, you are against the abuse of eminent domain, correct? Well, if the eviction of the Palestinians from their land isn't the biggest case of eminent domain abuse ever, I dunno what would be.

 

and even if Israel did "steal" their land, that doesn't excuse suicide bombings, hiding among the civilian population, using hospitals, mosques, ambulances, and even UN outposts as shields, and the indescriminate firing of unguided rockets into villages.

 

So how does the fact that Hezbollah hides behind civilian populations excuse Israel when they slaughter a bunch of children? It seems that you blindly defend Israel at every turn, even if they were to line up a group of school children against a wall and shoot them all in the head.

 

I'm clueless as to why most all Americans, conservative and liberal, seem to blindly support Israel such as you do. Why is that? Why do Americans have such a love for Israel? Is it because you believe that there must be a nation of Israel in order for there to be a second coming?? I ask that seriously.

 

If anyone is "punishing" the people of Lebanon, it is Hezbollah, who is using the innocent Lebanese civilians to make Israel look bad.

 

Yup, and Israel is playing right into their hands. You'd think that Israel would be smart enough to understand this, and adjust their tactics accordingly.

 

So it looks like Hezbollah tactics haven't changed much: they've been using the UN and civilians as human shields for more than ten years now.

 

Yeah, and Israeli's tactics and rhetoric haven't changed either. They're still slaughtering innocent people as Hezbollah continues to hide. The Israelis weren't able to take out Hezbollah then and they still can't take them out now. It's time they stop killing innocent people and start acting like the civilized, non-racist people who they claim to be, and stop acting like the barbaric, radical people who they are up against.

[Good Sir Knight]

Post deleted. Flame Bait Will Not be Tolerated

[Good Sir Knight]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Lebanons-PM-thanks-Hizbollah/2006/07/31/1154198039135.html

 

 

...and to touch on my point regarding Israeli society being more liberal than any Muslim country, the picture below has been circulating the Arab press for some time now.

 

This picture is politicaly correct in the Muslim world believe it or not, though it's nothing compared to what Muslims are doing to black women in Sudan.

 

[Good Sir Knight]

Post deleted. Flame Bait Will Not be Tolerated

[Samnmax221]

Oh wow another one of my posts was deleted, this is like the 7th time people.

 

Oh well here goes again!

Maybe you should take a hint a cut it out.

[Good Sir Knight]

Because it isn't flamebait Samnmax.

 

Don't go soft on me. : )

 

 

Oh and if the Genocide thread wasn't racist then why was it closed?

 

If SkinWalker says it was because of me then I can get some credit, but if SkinWalker says that it wasn't...well then he just proved himself to be hypocritical with his attempts at protecting Nancy from a Senate fallout.

 

Just watch, this piece will be deleted to.

 

It's really funny that I haven't been banned yet, guess why?

 

Because I really haven't done anything wrong. SkinWalker would have banned me by now if he could.

[SkinWalker]

The last couple of posts are off-topic. Please move the conversation back to the topic at hand. For chit-chat, use the PM system.

[toms]

So if you're saying...

exactly. I can't understand the lengths and mental gymnastics most americans seem to be willing to go through to excuse any israeli action.

 

Flattened a city & killed 100s? Well, they did warn them to get out so its their fault they are dead.

 

Killed lots of kids? Well, they are using them for propoganda so its their fault again.

 

They are using women and children as shields but we killed them anyway?? Well it's their fault for thinking we might care about slaughtering women and children.

 

Firing unguarded artilery into cities? Wll they did it first so we are ok to do it back much harder.

 

And yet, the same people can't bring themselves to allow ANY justification for anything the other side(s) might do. (Having their land taken, being forced to leave their homes and live in poverty, being an underground resitance movement fighting for freedom... oh no, none of that justifies anything.. but being Israel, that justifies anything.)

 

Israel is acting WORSE than Hezbollah or Hamas in this situation, because they are supposedly a civilised democracy, whereas the others are resistance organisations set up for the purpose of getting their land back. Yet israel is acting more like a terrorist than them.

 

-

 

The stupid thing is that pretty much all sides agree on what they want the outcome to be: a strong Nato/UN force in southern lebannon with the firepower and mandate to enforce peace.

 

So why the heck don't we just skip past all the killing and go straight to that?? Because its politically better for Bush and for Olmert to have a good blast for a few weeks first. Heck, Bush and Olmert could have gone to the UN moths ago and said "hey, how bout boosting the UNFIL mandate?" and they couls probably have pushed it through.

[TK-8252]

Finally an American politician has stood up against the violence.

 

Republican Chuck Hagel said, "The sickening slaughter on both sides must end and it must end now. President Bush must call for an immediate cease-fire. This madness must stop."

[Dagobahn Eagle]

The thing I find most disgusting is the condemnation of Israel and defense of Hezbollah terrorists. Israel is criticized again and again for killing civilians, yet they are going to some lengths to issue warnings before bombing raids.

Answer that one yourself. Israel-lickers such as yourself are doing the same thing - only the other way around.

 

Compared to Lebanon, civilian casualties in Israel have been extremely low. Why is this? Perhaps because Israel allows its citizens to find cover in bomb shelters, while it is in Hezbollah's best intersts for civilians to be killed. In fact, Hezbollah has even been preventing civilians from leaving villages in Southern Lebanon.

Or perhaps because Israel's military is by far more efficient when it comes to killing innocents.

 

Show me statistics that prove that a significant percentage of deaths was caused by civilians being kept from leaving. Go on.

 

And I really have to ask: Israel is allegedly bombing civilian city blocks to kill Hezbollah fighters. But what's the point of warning people if that's the case?

 

Israel: "Oh, that appartment building? We bombed it because there were Hezbollah fighters there"

World: "But weren't there civilan casualties?"

Israel: "Nah, we warned all the civilians off before we bombed the building".

 

Right.

 

Hezbollah is fighting [almost a tenth as dirty as Israel], yet all of the blame lands on Israel... It makes no sense.

I don't observe all the blame landing on Israel. That's an excaggeration.

 

Even the argument that "it was their land first" doesn't hold water. Let's see...the areas that Muslims control in the Middle East include Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and others. Yet these Muslims are given leeway for heinous acts because they're pissed off that they had to give up what, in comparison, is a tiny little sliver of land on the Mediterranean coast.

That's an exceedingly racist thing to say, and a pathetic attempt to skew what's really going on.

 

It's not about Muslims, it's about the Palestinians. They, as a nationality, deserve a homeland. If Egypt, Palestine, and so on were a single nationality, fine, then they'd control lots of land.

 

However, what you're doing is akin to driving all Italians out of Italy and taking their land, excusing it by saying that "the whites/Christians control all of Europe, stop whining!".

 

It's a very fallacious and offensive argument. Please drop it.

 

The thing that gets me the most is the "proportionate response" argument. Should Israel have kidnapped two Hezbollah terrorists and left it at that? Should the US military, in the interests of proportionality, be torturing, beheading, dismembering, and booby-trapping 'insurgents' in Iraq?

"Proportionate response" doesn't mean "doing the same thing to them". It means "making the punishment suit the crime".

 

...and to touch on my point regarding Israeli society being more liberal than any Muslim country, the picture below has been circulating the Arab press for some time now.

 

This picture is politicaly correct in the Muslim world believe it or not, though it's nothing compared to what Muslims are doing to black women in Sudan.

And that's got anything to do with this discussion because:confused:?

 

The more I debate this topic in this thread, the more I become convinced that what Israel's doing is wrong. Every single point brought up so far by Good Sir Knight (RIP;)), rccar, and whatever other pro-Israelis present has been refuted.

 

Republican Chuck Hagel said, "The sickening slaughter on both sides must end and it must end now. President Bush must call for an immediate cease-fire. This madness must stop."

Good man. Have him move to Norway so I can vote for him:p.

 

Although, of course, a seize-fire is only the first step towards peace. Israel needs to give back what it's acquired stolen for peace to be negotiated effectively.

 

Also, lebanon had been hitting israel with rockets, so israel gave them the same treatment.

1. Israel's rockets are far more deadly. Hezbollah's rocket attacks, on the other hand, have a fatality rate of 0,0001 as most rockets don't hit anything but non-living, non-caring mountainsides, as stated already in this thread.

2. Israel began firing rockets first.

 

- Dagobahn Eagle

[ewok mercenary]

"Proportionate response" doesn't mean "doing the same thing to them". It means "making the punishment suit the crime".

 

I'm sure a "proportionate response" would also involve punishing those responsible for the crime, rather than indiscriminately slaughtering people located around the scene of the crime.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

I've been looking at rccar's (?) blog, and it elaborates on what he's talking about regarding Israel and Lebanon. I found it largelly fallacious, but it did also make me think - a little. Let me comment:

 

As Rush Limbaugh observed during his program a few days ago, the ratio of US to Japanese military battle deaths in the Pacific Theatre of World War II was something in the neighborhood of 22:1 (Rush's figures were much more precise; I don't have the actual numbers here in front of me). That figure, however, does not even include civilian casualties. It doesn't include the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 

This might be true, although of course Lindbaugh never was much of a trust-worthy source due to his bias.

 

Would the Left classify a 22:1 ratio in battle deaths as a "disproportionate response?" Should we have gone easier on the Japanese? After all, they only killed about 2,400 soldiers and 70 civilians in the attack on Pearl Harbor. Should we have stopped after reciprocating with 2,400 combat and 70 civilian deaths on the Japanese side? Would that have made everything okay (would the Japanese have stopped after an even proportion was reached)? To even ask questions such as these is ludicrous, yet this is how the Left seems to think wars should be fought.

 

You missed the point by a mile. The point is that Israel originally claimed to do what it was doing to get their two soldiers back. On the other hand, the USA called its war on Japan just that from Day 1 - a war. They didn't say "OK, now we're going to punish them for Pearl Harbour and then stand down".

 

Israel, however, lied about their actions by saying that they were "trying to bring their soldiers back". If Israel did what they did to bring back their troops, they'd have been massively disproportionate. As a nation at war, though, they're "just" breaking 99% of all rules there are wordlwide about warfare - not that the neo-cons care.

 

Second off, Pearl Harbour was a massive attack. So was 9/11. Thousands were killed in each instance. That is not remotely the same thing as kidnapping two soldiers, no matter how many instances designate it as an Act of War.

 

After 9/11, we didn't hear these same people calling for restraint and for a "proportionate response." We didn't hear condemnation of the "collective punishment" of the Taliban and the Afghani people.

Funny that. Could it be because the Afghani people was not collectively punished? Could it be because NATO went after the Talibans and Al-Q'aida where the Israelis, in turn, goes after Lebanese civilians, UN outposts, and Red Crescent ambulances?

 

Yet to the Left, who consider the very existence of the nation of Israel to be tantamount to a terrorist act, any response offered by Israel is inappropriate.

 

&

 

Because according to the Left, Israel is the terrorist organizaion

First of all, I don't know any "Leftist" who considers Israel's creation a terrorist act. Second of all, I don't recall anyone on the Left side saying that "any response is inappropriate".

 

Please stop putting words in our mouths.

 

Personally, I happen to believe that this current crisis, more than anything else, shows why the Left cannot be trusted to run America: they lack perspective. The United States is fighting a War on Terror...or, more appropriately, a War on Islamic Radicalism. I've heard it time and time again from Leftists: "You can't fight Islamic radicalism...Islamic radicalism is an idea, and you can't fight an idea." This argument is ludicrous. We are fighting Islamic radicalism by *gasp* killing Islamic radicals!!! The Left, however, cannot seem to bring themselves to believe that all Islamic radicals are our enemies (despite the fact that they consider the United States to be "The Great Satan"). The truth is that the current Israel/Lebanon conflict is another front in the War on Terror[TM].

Is it now. How convenient.

 

Despite all of the attacks and moral equivocation from the Left in this conflict, Israel has been doing exactly the right thing.

Show me one shred of evidence that this is "exactly the right thing" to do. I'm not going to bore you with such "trivialties" as the Geneva Conventions - I should have learned a long time ago that they mean absolutely nothing to you neo-conservatives (read: Guantanamo) unless you actually benefit from enforcing them (read: Anti-Saddam propaganda by the US about how evil Hussein broke the Geneva Conventions, oh noez:eek:!). Instead, I'm going to challenge you to show me an instance in history where collective punishment has weakened the populace's will to fight you. One instance where it's actually been an effective strategy.

 

I, on the other hand, have many, many, many examples of how it has not worked. For instance, there was this incident in Norway where a pair(?) of Gestapo officers stormed a small beach-side house in a minor Norwegian village near my hometown. The house was occupied by a pair of armed partisans, who unfortunately for the Gestapo were prepared for the visit. A gun-fight broke out, killing the Gestapo men. The partisans vanished into the night.

 

The German occupiers answered as you'd expect them to: By driving out the villagers (about half a hundred) and burning every last of the wooden houses in the village to the ground as collective punishment. But now here's the pinch: It did not work. Norwegian fighting spirit was not reduced - the resistance fought on with increased resolve. With every execution of a dissenter, every collective punishment - in short, with every atrocity - the conviction of the occupied that they lived under an intolerable regime was strenghtened.

 

In fact, would collective punishment work with you? If the US was occupied by a force you considered evil, and all of a sudden your neighbourhood was torched due to the actions of partisans you had nothing to do with - would your hatred increase or decrease?

 

Kofi Annan says that he wants a cease-fire. Well, Israel will give it to him: sooner or later, Hezbollah will run out of rockets and terrorists to fire those rockets. And when Hezbollah has been brought to its knees and shot in the head, Israel will cease firing, because they will have run out of terrorists to fire at.

To which I answer: Did this "keep-killing-terrorists/partisans/separatists/resistance fighers/guerillas-until-there-are-none-left-deal work for [insert regime that made use of collective punishment]?"

[TK-8252]

It's strange how rccar lumps all the critics of Israel into the catagory of "leftists."

 

Pat Buchanon, last time I checked, was by no means a leftist. And since when did I become a leftist. I'm more conservative than rccar when it comes to government that's for damn sure.

 

Also, Rush is the one who's cheering on the deaths of Lebanese civilians claiming that their deaths are needed in order to stop them from propping up Hezbollah. Sounds a lot like collective punishment... and also... wait, doesn't that sound exactly like what Osama bin Laden says? That the American people must suffer for the actions of their elected government?

 

Rush Limbaugh... someone who uses the same logic as Osama bin Laden. What a great influence, rccar.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Another fun fact: Of 8,5 million Palestinians, 5 millions are refugees or "displaced persons".

 

Also, Rush is the one who's cheering on the deaths of Lebanese civilians claiming that their deaths are needed in order to stop them from propping up Hezbollah.

I've heard worse, but that's still barbaric.

 

Almost as bad as the thread I refered to where these people idiots discouraged the sending of emergency aid to Lebanon until the Lebanese had rejected Hezbollah. And yes, I, too have heard human beings creatures claim that "since they elected Hezbollah, they're not innocents!". I suppose I'm justified in getting on the sub-way train in NYC tomorrow with Mr. Suitcase Bomb, then? After all, the "innocents" I kill voted Bush into office, and thus support the Guantanamo torture, Operation Iraqi Freedom F***-up, and lots of other questionable actions.

 

Sometimes I seriously wonder where morality has gone? We're supposed to be a civilized group of nations, and there are serious debates on whether or not torture and deliberate killing of civilians is right?

 

Maybe I should start a poll in the Swamps on what's next. Slavery seems like a good candidate. After all, it's no more wrong than torture and civilian massacres. I'm sure Bush'll find a way to justify it. You may find it crazy, I answer that I'm actually not 100% joking. Why? Because five years ago, I'd say the same about torture. No way could there be a serious debate in the US or elsewhere on whether or not torture is really right.

[toms]

The parallels keep coming up between the neo-con christian right in america and the muslim extremists in the middle east, don't they.

 

Both support the killing of civilians in order to try and teach their governments a lesson. (in the mistaken idea that killing civilians will convince the population they were wrong and cause them to change their views... when infact it strengthens them, like it did after 9/11.)

 

Both lump all their "enemies" together under one big umbrella (muslims/west) that is trying to achieve some great hidden agenda. When in actual fact both sides are full of different viewpoints and factions... and the views of the population of lebannon are about as similar to those of palestine as the views of the UK to the US)

 

Both want governments run on religious laws, with no tolerance of homosexuality, sex before marriage, etc..

 

Both seem to use tv propoganda stations to spread their message (Fox news/Al jazeera)

 

After 9/11, we didn't hear these same people calling for restraint and for a "proportionate response." We didn't hear condemnation of the "collective punishment" of the Taliban and the Afghani people.

Erm.. well it was there... its just it got drowned out in the deafening rush to punish someone, ANYONE. And throw away all your hard fought for rights at the same time. Its funny how memory plays tricks on you.

Still, glad it worked out for you. Some of us were worried you might end up fighting guerilla wars in 2 or 3 countries, with mounting casualities, unforendly populations, spreading instability, continuing terrorist attacks, those responsible still free and increased support for islamic militants. Good thing we were wrong about that then...

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Off-topic:

The parallels keep coming up between the neo-con christian right in america and the muslim extremists in the middle east, don't they.

Sad, but true. At least they've still got free elections in the States.

 

There's also this to worry about.

 

Still, glad it worked out for you. Some of us were worried you might end up fighting guerilla wars in 2 or 3 countries, with mounting casualities, unforendly populations, spreading instability, continuing terrorist attacks, those responsible still free and increased support for islamic militants.

Sigh:(.

 

Anyway, back on topic. When you're done reading Riverbend, listening to the music she linked to, and eating the food she gives you recipes for, you can read this Lebanese Armed Forces blog.

 

We have seen Israel for example hitting a tissue factory in a small village in the south. The reason for that would be Hezbollah move around with a missile in a truck, park near a factory and fire a rocket then flee. The origin of the rocket being the factory, Israelis respond by hitting it.

 

A witness to a similar action went on TV and urged Hezbollah fighters to stop coming into his village to shoot rockets and then run away since the village is being destroyed.

Gawd, sounds like a video game exploit.

[toms]

Hezbollah fighters aren't idiots... they know very well the response time of the israeli army. They know that if they fire a missle fromt he back of a truck then the spot will get hit x minnutes later. So they leave.

 

So basically the Israeli army is like a newbie FPS player... not leading their targets and leaving a trail of destruction as they keep firing at WHERE THEIR ENEMY USED TO BE.

 

Which would explain why, after all this firepower and destruction, they have killed relatively few hezbollah fighters. The only danger of the current tactics stpping Hezbollah firing rockets is when they run out of rockets to fire.

 

Of course, you could say "well, in that case the deaths are hezbollah's fault for firing and moving in civilian areas".. which is partially true. But if the israeli military KNOWS that hezbollah are almost certain not to be there anymore then they are just as guilty.

 

Its like that UN outpost. Hezbollah fires a rocket from there early in the morning.. then leaves. Israel spends the rest of the day shelling the outpost and the destroying it.. what on earth does that achieve from an israeli point of view???

[Dagobahn Eagle]

So basically the Israeli army is like a newbie FPS player... not leading their targets and leaving a trail of destruction as they keep firing at WHERE THEIR ENEMY USED TO BE.

Quite like a clumsy Commander in Battlefield 2, when you say it that way. Ordering an artillery firing mission as you take an outpost, and then killing you as you move in to secure it and the firing mission arrives.

 

Of course, you could say "well, in that case the deaths are hezbollah's fault for firing and moving in civilian areas".. which is partially true. But if the israeli military KNOWS that hezbollah are almost certain not to be there anymore then they are just as guilty.

Quite so.

 

It's like a demolition-on-demand thing. You want something destroyed? No worries! Your good buddy the enemy will take care of it for you!

[toms]

Up to 900 lebanese dead now, including up to 300 children. 70 israelis dead too, not sure if that included soldiers.

 

Also, hezbollah launched a big rocket offensive today, killing the most they'd killed in a day for several weeks. So one has to wonder if the israeli army is having any effect. They are now pushing further north, looks like they'll be there some time.

 

One has to wonder at the US's motivation in all this. Either the tail is wagging the dog and israel is now dictating US foriegn policy.. or the US sees it in their interests to try and remove hezbollah, no matter the cost. THat implies that they plan on moving against iran sometime soon.

 

Considering the taliban is getting stronger in afganistan and the leading US general and the leaving UK ambasador in iraq have just said that "civil war and a split country are more likely than a functioning democracy" it seems very ambitious to go after iran as well. Juggling too many tigers..

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Yet another blog from me (but not by me).

[Nancy Allen``]

Thanks to CNCNZ's General Leang for the link.

 

http://www.johnlaws.com.au/3Xchange.html

 

Scroll down to 'Five Days in Five Minutes' and start upwards from July 21st for a summery on the situation.

[toms]

It seems like support for Hezbollah is now rising rapidly, they apparently have more support than they have had since 2000. Heck, even the christian Bishop of beirut has come out in their defence..

From what i understand their support was dwindling in lebannon, and theyonly really had any support left in the south. Which was good as it meant that the lebanese government and army was getting stronger. Now they are basically viewed as the heros by most of the middle east.

 

..plus in Bagdad they've just ahd 10s of thousands of shia muslims marching in support of hezbollah.

 

...plus the Israeli general who ran the previous israels occupation (1982 to 2000) has said that te current action will only increase support for hezbollah.

 

PS/ After watching the daily show show clips of all the US news networks going on about armageddon approaching (and not just the nut job christian channels and Faux news, the serious ones too) i'm starting to worry that maybe GW is on a mission to prepare the way..

[Nancy Allen``]

toms, you don't really buy into that crap do you? I don't know about other religions, but Christians believe that God will bring about the apocalypse, Jesus returning I think it is. Sure, at times the world does seem like it'll fall apart, but the world really isn't that much diffirent, in terms of conflict, than it was ten years ago. There was war in Somalia, war in Kosovo, East Timor, I think maybe the IRA were still terrorising in Europe, ditto for Israel and Palestine, and about this time President Clinton orchastrated air strikes on Iraq. And there were other conflicts such as in Russia where they were fighting the Chechnyan rebels. But I don't think the world was anywhere as edgy back then as it is today. It's comparable to the Cold War, in my opinion, in that we are anxiously wondering if the whole thing is going to blow up the same way twenty years ago, thirty years ago, we were concerned that Kremlin Joe would let fly with the nukes.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

toms, you don't really buy into that crap do you?

I think he was joking. I know toms as a rather bright and very level-headed person.

 

It seems like support for Hezbollah is now rising rapidly, they apparently have more support than they have had since 2000. Heck, even the christian Bishop of beirut has come out in their defence..

What's the e-mail of the Israeli C-in-C? I want to send him an "I told ya so!":rolleyes:.