Is religion evil?

[Good Sir Knight]

Hitler was a theist. He was born and baptized a Roman Catholic and there is evidence that his actions of genocide were inspired by Biblical genocides committed by mythical figures like Moses. Indeed, Article 24 of the Nazi Party Program calls for "positive Christianity." Clearly, Hitler abandoned his piety in favor of his own "divinity" as it were by the full height of the Third Reich, but his foundation was christianity.

 

 

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains," Adolf Hitler, 13 December 1941.

 

"So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death," Adolf Hitler, 14 October 1941.

 

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure," Adolf Hitler

 

 

Hitler created 'positive Christianity' in order to further envelope the people, seeking to avoid a clash of church and state. Of course this is my interpretation, some people have rather unfavorable views of Christianity.

 

 

http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/faq/hitler.html

http://kevin.davnet.org/essays/hitler.html

[SkinWalker]

I agree with your assessment, as I mentioned in my post above where I note Hitler's "abandonment of piety." But it is still very evident that Christianity had a profound influence upon Adolf Hitler and his "final solution."

[Good Sir Knight]

I agree with your assessment, as I mentioned in my post above where I note Hitler's "abandonment of piety." But it is still very evident that Christianity had a profound influence upon Adolf Hitler and his "final solution."

 

I really don't see the correlation. Hitler was a left wing fascist that shut down many religions and rallied the Christian base into a 'safe' Church not unlike Chinese Catholics. From my knowledge it's quite clear that he despised religion in general and notably with Jews who he blamed for losing WWI.

 

He did of course hate the Jews based upon their race, his entire philosophy was built around the perfection of aryan people not the perfection of any religion.

 

What was that profound Christian influence?

 

I'm sure his Catholic upbringing may have had some influence but profoundly? Perhaps he was rebeling against what good there was in his life. Wounded and poor on the streets of Austria after losing WWI Hitler lost mind.

 

Adolf Hitler was brought up in his family's religion by his Roman Catholic parents. According to historian Bradley F. Smith, Hitler's father, though nominally a Catholic, was a freethinker, while his mother was a practising Catholic. According to historian Michael Rissmann young Adolf was influenced in school by Pan-Germanism and Darwinism and began to reject the Church and Catholicism, protesting against being confirmed by the bishop. A boyhood friend reports that after Hitler had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments.

8

[TK-8252]

Oh well, while there's quotes of his that are critical of Christianity, he clearly was influenced by Jesus.

 

"...We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of the German people."

 

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

 

"[Jesus] made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross."

 

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

 

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

[Good Sir Knight]

I'm not doubting that he said any of that but could you list your source?

 

Furthermore it's important to know when, where and in what context he expressed these opinions.

 

Secondly, to me it's obvious and both common sense to think that his Catholic upbringing affected his character in some way. It had to, as my Catholic upbringing did to me.

 

The question here is whether it had a profound influence on Hitler. It's rather ambiguous to say this as Hitler had a profound effect on alot of things. In what area did this side of him shine through?

 

Are people suggesting that it had a profound influence on the final solution? I would have to disagree as Jews were being put to death for being 'unpure' just like other undesirables including Gypsis and Slavs. It's my impression that Hitler wasn't murdering these people because of some religious contradiction, his motivations were purely racial and political.

 

So to really center on Christianity as a primary motivator is false I believe especially in comparison to his true motivations and ideology.

 

Again had Hitler been a real Catholic, Nazi germany would resemble more of a theocracy. Instead it was a secular 'National Socialism', a regime that fell down the slippery slope of euthanasia to genocide...hardly Christian aspirations.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Hitler and the Nazi movement was very much secular. So when someone says that Christianity had a profound impact on him and his ideology, it's puzzling.

[TK-8252]

I'm not doubting that he said any of that but could you list your source?

 

Furthermore it's important to know when, where and in what context he expressed these opinions.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs

 

Some of those quotes were from speeches, while others were from Mein Kampf.

 

Are people suggesting that it had a profound influence on the final solution? I would have to disagree as Jews were being put to death for being 'unpure' just like other undesirables including Gypsis and Slavs. It's my impression that Hitler wasn't murdering these people because of some religious contradiction, his motivations were purely racial and political.

 

In that last quote I posted, he talks about how ridding the world of "the Jew" is doing the lord's work.

 

Again had Hitler been a real Catholic, Nazi germany would resemble more of a theocracy. Instead it was a secular 'National Socialism', a regime that fell down the slippery slope of euthanasia to genocide...hardly Christian aspirations.

 

Genocide not a Christian aspiration... o rly... then why'd your god flood the earth with the intention of killing every man, woman, and child?

 

If that's not genocide, I dunno what is!

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Hitler and the Nazi movement was very much secular. So when someone says that Christianity had a profound impact on him and his ideology, it's puzzling.

 

I suppose. He's somewhat similar to Saddam Hussein in that sense.

[Good Sir Knight]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs

 

Some of those quotes were from speeches, while others were from Mein Kampf.

 

In that last quote I posted, he talks about how ridding the world of "the Jew" is doing the lord's work.

 

Some type of citation would be helpful, also lets not put too much credence in the words of a mad man. He's clearly contradictory and as we can all agree actions speak louder than words.

 

His actions were of a left wing, fascist nature and there's really nothing that can dispute that.

 

 

 

Genocide not a Christian aspiration... o rly... then why'd your god flood the earth with the intention of killing every man, woman, and child?

 

If that's not genocide, I dunno what is!

 

You're not privy to my religious beliefs, I am no longer a Catholic as I left the church shortly after highschool. It didn't have anything to do with Hitler being born a Catholic, believe it or not.

 

So you do acknowledge that God decimated the earth and started over again? Now wouldn't you consider that to be believing in a fairy tale?

 

Just asking.

 

Besides God's work cannot be discribed as genocide since he spared the folks that were free from sin, it wasn't on the basis of their ethnicity as he killed everyone. Also, it's generally accepted that Genocide is carried out by human beings, not the supernatural.

 

Genocide

* systematic killing of a racial or cultural group

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

 

 

I'm sure you can find something to argue with there but my point still stands.

 

I suppose. He's somewhat similar to Saddam Hussein in that sense.

 

Saddam pretended he was religious also, far more so than the left wing Hitler. Hitler needed the Christians and so he set up a nice little church for them.

[TK-8252]

His actions were of a left wing, fascist nature and there's really nothing that can dispute that.

 

Fascism is a right-wing thing... had Hitler been left-wing, he wouldn't have thrown Communists into the concentration camps.

 

So you do acknowledge that God decimated the earth and started over again? Now wouldn't you consider that to be believing in a fairy tale?

 

No I don't believe that, of course.

 

Besides God's work cannot be discribed as genocide since he spared the folks that were free from sin

 

He spared the children?? Nuh-uh!

 

it wasn't on the basis of their ethnicity as he killed everyone.

 

So he killed EVERYONE. That makes it a lot better.

[Good Sir Knight]

Fascism is a right-wing thing... had Hitler been left-wing, he wouldn't have thrown Communists into the concentration camps.

 

No actually Fascism is not exclusive to right wing movements. In fact to be Fascist you must appose both Marxism and Liberal Democracy.

 

In fact the proper name for Nazi Germany was 'National Socialism' believe it or not. The economic system was socialist in that there was limited free enterprise and the government owned all major corporations.

 

Though Hitler detested Communism, alot of his resentment for Soviets was based on race. You don't have to love Communism to be socialist.

 

I must note that true German socialists were persecuted under National Socialism as they appeared to sympathize with communism.

 

Still, Nazi Germany by contemporary standards is far more Socialist than Capitalist. Especially in regards to the secularization of German society and their economic system.

 

 

No I don't believe that, of course.

 

Okay well then why state it as fact?

 

So he killed EVERYONE. That makes it a lot better.

 

If we are to assume that he did then we must assume that he exists. If he exists then he did create man and thus is within his rights to take that life away.

 

 

I wish SkinWalker would explain that profound influence Christianity had on Hitler.

 

I'm really curious as to what that influence was since SkinWalker seems so sure of it, heck I might learn something.

[TK-8252]

In fact the proper name for Nazi Germany was 'National Socialism' believe it or not. The economic system was socialist in that there was limited free enterprise and the government owned all major corporations.

 

Though Hitler detested Communism, alot of his resentment for Soviets was based on race. You don't have to love Communism to be socialist.

 

Here's from wikipedia:

 

"Nazi was also meant to mirror the term Sozi (a common and slightly derogatory term for the Nazis' main opponents, the socialists in Germany)."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_socialism

 

Hitler was neither a capitalist nor a socialist; he was a corporatist. Where business and government is married, much like how it is now in the U.S. under the leadership of the neocons.

 

Okay well then why state it as fact?

 

I don't... Christians do.

 

If he exists then he did create man and thus is within his rights to take that life away.

 

I see. So I suppose that parents have the right to take away the lives of their children because, after all, they created their children.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Besides God's work cannot be discribed as genocide since he spared the folks that were free from sin

All who committ genocide spare those they deem "free from Sin". It's not like Hitler killed homosexual Germans and spared heterosexual Germans.

 

No, actually Fascism is not exclusive to right wing movements. Though I'm sure CNN would have you believe that.

Yeah, the evil left-wing news are trying to turn us into socialist dicator-aspirants, one documentary at a time:p.

 

As for facsism being purely right-wing, it does not have to be for Nazi-Germany to have been right-wing.

 

The economic system was socialist in that there was limited free enterprise and the government owned all major corporations.

Are you sure:confused:? Please show me the source of that.

 

If we are to assume that he did then we must assume that he exists. If he exists then he did create man and thus is within his rights to take that life away.

Just that you created a life doesn't give you the right to kill it. Do my parents have the right to murder me (as TK said in the post he posted before I was done typing mine:p)?

[TK-8252]

No, actually Fascism is not exclusive to right wing movements. Though I'm sure CNN would have you believe that.

 

And I'm sure Faux would have you believe that Hitler was an evil atheist left-wing socialist fascist.

[Good Sir Knight]

Hitler was neither a capitalist nor a socialist; he was a corporatist. Where business and government is married, much like how it is now in the U.S. under the leadership of the neocons.

 

Nazi germany's economic policy is closer to socialism than capitalism, way closer. Don't you see that?

 

In case you haven't noticed, The United States is still a liberal democracy with an economic policy that is capitalist.

 

Besides, the whole Hitler/Bush comparison is a bit of a cliche now don't you think?

 

 

 

I don't... Christians do.

 

Well next time don't state that a Christian God exists, just clarifying.

 

 

I see. So I suppose that parents have the right to take away the lives of their children because, after all, they created their children.

 

Is everything relative TK?

 

Besides you can already do that, it's called abortion.

 

All who committ genocide spare those they deem "free from Sin". It's not like Hitler killed homosexual Germans and spared heterosexual Germans.

 

We're talking about a percieved God here Eagle, I know what constitutes genocide.

 

Though the Turks probably cited 'sin' when they slaughtered the Armenians. Then again it was probably the Armenians refusal to convert to Islam.

 

As for facsism being purely right-wing, it does not have to be for Nazi-Germany to have been right-wing.

 

Can you clarify this statement?

 

 

Are you sure? Please show me the source of that.

 

It appears that wikipedia is generally regarded as credible here so I will quote the article on Nazi Germany.

 

When the Nazis came to power the most pressing issue was an unemployment rate of close to 30%. The economic management of the state was first given to respected banker Hjalmar Schacht. Under his guidance, a new economic policy to elevate the nation was drafted. One of the first actions was to destroy the trade unions and impose strict wage controls.

link

 

 

Read that first paragraph or the entire piece. Does Germany's economic policy look more like socialism or capitalism?

 

Wage controls?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think we've gone off topic here a bit, I love it how I'm swarmed every time I contribute and I think that may lead to tangents.

 

Do I think religion is evil? To such a broad question with such large implications I cannot give a general answer.

 

There is good and bad in everything. There are religions and cults that influence folks to do bad things but does that mean that every religion is fundamentally flawed? Some are and many change or die out. There are many examples of peaceful religions in the past and present.

 

Even religions that need reformation (Islam) are full of well intentioned and good people I believe.

 

Modern day Christianity in my opinion is a perfect example of a religion that was once twisted by tyrants like Islam is now. People in the secular left wing would disagree for social reasons but you don't see young Christian men killing civilians in the name of Christ. That is something you just don't see very often this day an age.

 

I'm confident that Islam will make the same leap soon. I would recommend reading Reza Aslan's, "No God but God." He nails it right on the head.

 

So it isn't a black and white thing. That's why I voted strongly opposed.

 

I'm confident that the Dalai Lama would agree.

[TK-8252]

In case you haven't noticed, The United States is still a liberal democracy with an economic policy that is capitalist.

 

Not capitalist enough IMO. Oil executives should not be having secret closed-door meetings with government officials. Crony capitalism is not equal to capitalism.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

 

Besides, the whole Hitler/Bush comparison is a bit of a cliche now don't you think?

 

Except I never compared Bush to Hitler. That's just stupid. Hitler knew how to speak; listening to Bush you would never think that you're listening to the leader of a superpower.

 

Besides you can already do that, it's called abortion.

 

Except a fetus is not a child, but that's a separate debate...

 

Wage controls?

 

We have that here in the U.S. It's called "minimum wage."

[Good Sir Knight]

Nothing like Nazi Germany's wage controls and you know that.

 

Except I never compared Bush to Hitler.

 

Well then who leads these NeoCons?

 

 

Can we get back to the subject at hand? What did you think of my contribution on the subject of this thread? That would be a more relevant debate.

 

I purposefully backed off of touching on all of your unrelated points, lets get this discussion back on track so we don't suffer the wrath of the Admin gods.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Can you clarify this statement?

Gladly.

 

Facsism doesn't have to be right-wing only for Germany to have been right-wing. There could be left-wing facist countries and still a right-winged Facsist Germany.

[sockerbit89]

Religion isn't evil. I can not say one thing done by man that is a work of pure evil rather than a whole lot fear, misunderstanding, hate and ignorance.

 

Religion wasn't made out of evil, altough there was a whole lot of ignorant dumb stuff involved.

[Windu Chi]

This has been discussed before, but I believe it can't hurt to bring it up again.

 

Yes religion is evil corrupt and of igorance. One reason being that some people who follow it sometimes used as justification for evil acts; Rawanda is one example of that and probably the Holocuast.

 

Corrupt because look at the Bush

administration for example, they have ban Stem Cell research because of that damn religion called Christianity so alot of people will become death's rewards from horriable diseases and genetics aflictions.

 

Igorance because, look at globle warming that administration have appointed lawers to censor climatologists reports about the Northern Hemisphere becoming a freezer in about a decade(10 years) if carbon dioxide emissions don't cease by then. Yeah you know that won't happen for about what?

 

Another 10,000 years if people keep listening to those f**king oil companies, in which that damn administration is connected to like white on rice.

 

Also another example of igorance is Bush policies that is affected by Christianity. Bush actally believe that Armageddon is going to happen very soon, so his actions isn't independent of his religious beliefs.

 

So you can say,he is preparing the world for comming of that f**ker God by any means possible.

 

A Second example of the igorance of religion is, the Dark Ages in Europe women was burn at the stake because of

religion and people like early scientist was ridicule and punish because they went aganist the bible.

 

Religion rule most of the civilize world back then so people lived in igorance for hundrens of years, because of religion's power grasp.

 

With that said, we will be probably traveling the galaxy now today if it was't for religion influences back then in the past. So the world will be better off with out it.

 

Also there will probably be never be peace in the Middle East if religion is still the issue there about who land it is base on their RELIGIOUS suppose facts.

[toms]

Whether or not religion is evil.. i have to wonder what the POINT of religion is. Organised religion that is.

 

If people want to have their own internal relationship with god, fine. I'm sure he'd like that. But why would he want people to get together in some sort of organised ceremony / structured organisation for his worship?

 

Its been the subject of jokes in everything from Monty Python to the Simpsons.. but why would a god CARE if you go to some building every week, or if you give moeny to said organisation, or if you sing a load of dull songs, or believe everything a guy in a dress and collar tells you to believe?

 

Heck, jesus spent half his time challenging the organised religion that worshiped his dad, and then that organised religion had him killed. If that isn't a lesson that you shouldn't trust organised religion, and that organised religion can stray from the path and develop incorrect beliefs then i don't know what is... their god fought them, then they had their god killed because they didn't agree with him!!

[TK-8252]

Heck, jesus spent half his time challenging the organised religion that worshiped his dad, and then that organised religion had him killed. If that isn't a lesson that you shouldn't trust organised religion, and that organised religion can stray from the path and develop incorrect beliefs then i don't know what is... their god fought them, then they had their god killed because they didn't agree with him!!

 

On the topic of Jesus, he was the one who told his followers never to pray or worship in front of other people! He said to "pray in a closet." He called the Jews "hypocrites" because they loved to pray on street corners and in synagogues.

 

And yet Christians do the very same thing, even want prayer in public schools. Sigh.

[Darth Andrew]

On the topic of Jesus, he was the one who told his followers never to pray or worship in front of other people! He said to "pray in a closet." He called the Jews "hypocrites" because they loved to pray on street corners and in synagogues.

 

And yet Christians do the very same thing, even want prayer in public schools. Sigh.

Sigh.

 

Taken way out of context. Here's the original verse:

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."

Also, here's a site that helps to explain it (also where I got the verse): http://www.religioustolerance.org/prayer.htm

 

On organized religion, I see it that people want to not feel alone in their worship and find people who also believe in their ideas. Plus, it can help people to grow in their spirituality, where solely praying alone would feel less fulfilling and keep them "in a closet". That's how I see it, anyway.

[TK-8252]

I don't see how that was out of context at all. That's what it says.

[Darth Andrew]

He said to pray in a closet because most of those who were praying pubicly were doing it to show off, while he would rather have one pray in private but to fully adore him than to pray in public for the sole purpose to brag about your faith. You took it out of context because you didn't mention why Jesus said that. Of course, I may just be using "context" wrong.

[toms]

On organized religion, I see it that people want to not feel alone in their worship and find people who also believe in their ideas. Plus, it can help people to grow in their spirituality, where solely praying alone would feel less fulfilling and keep them "in a closet". That's how I see it, anyway.

 

Praying directly with your god is less fulfilling if there aren't other people around?

That just goes to prove that all these great feelings and raptures that people supposedly have aren't anything to do with god.. its from all getting worked up like a mob.

 

Surely a private, internal experience with your god would be much more personal and profound?

 

I completely understand why people like to get together and feel part of a group, solidarity, belonging, friendship and all that. But it seems that some people are confusing those lovely feelings with some sort of divine light.

 

People love to get together in all kinds of groups.. groups of friends, sports fans, quake clans, muslim extremists, etc.. and they all feel better together, feel that they aren't alone, feel that they have others like them, make friends, convince each other they are right, etc... no divine inspiration there.

 

Surely it should be all the poor aithiests who need to get together in groups every sunday to re-affirm their self worth and their place in the world.

Those with god in their hearts shouldn't need that kind of buzz as they already have god.... don't they?

[Darth Andrew]

Praying directly with your god is less fulfilling if there aren't other people around?

That just goes to prove that all these great feelings and raptures that people supposedly have aren't anything to do with god.. its from all getting worked up like a mob.

Do you literally mean as a mob? If anything, it's the exact opposite from I have known.

 

Anyway, organized religion can be good since it's, well, organized. Sure, some people may believe in the same deity, but they might not grow in their spiritual faith if they solely prayed alone. While in what you call a group, people can discover more about their faith through the experience of others. Besides, the world wouldn't even be able to function if everyone stayed "in a closet," so why can't religion be organized like everything else?