M$-78 in game trailer

[Darth InSidious]

I think, from looking at the HK factory modules and some of the lead-up to it, it must have been time. It's almost all there, the parts for it are all ready to drop into the story, it just needs the final bits put together...

[Jediphile]

Deadlines change all the time in the business that I am in. Regardless about how my clients adjust the schedulle, I allways give them 100%.

 

"Chris Avellone said in an interview that in the end, I do wish there had been more time and I wished I had had more time to work on the end game." - The Architect"

Yeah. I added that information under 'accidentally removed edits'. There is no doubt in my mind that Malacore was a result of bad editting.

 

The release was said to be febuary 2005 in late june. To me that suggests that the last 50% of the worktime was cut by 20-25%. Work schedules are essential in the gaming industry, where the deadlines are frequently pushed.

 

It sounds like the Malacore V and Droid Planet suffered from Obsidian not adjusting their own schedule to the new deadline. Not time restraints, but not managing their work to fit the time given. He even blames himself for not managing the work he had to do in the time he was given.

 

If the game state was do to time restraints, they would have said, "Lucas Arts cut back our time, and that caused our work to be incomplete." Instead, he blames himself for not managing the time he was given, so he can personally complete certain elements of the game.

 

'Time Restraints' vrs. 'Not Managing the time given to carry out what needed to be done.' those are two different concepts. He didn't reorganize his schedulle effectivly to carry out what he needed to accomplish. This has nothing to do with 'time restaraints', but with him not managing his workload to fit the time given.

 

Cute. So you're basically just going to deny the evidence that the deadline was changed, even though that clearly affects the amount of work that Obsidian could do. That you then just casually suggest that Obsidian should have been able to adjust to the new schedule demonstrates beyond any doubt that you're completely unwilling or unable to entertain the idea that the LA gutted the game for the sake of profits and so rushed the product. Fine. But I shall consider then consider you beyond reasonable argument and conclude that you're biased and that no argument or evidence to the contrary will sway you, since you're unwilling to look at it and consider it's implications objectively. Therefore it will be a pointless waste of time to provide you with any evidence in spite of your claim that you're interested in it, since you'll simply ignore them as a matter of course, and I'm not willing to accept you as the final arbiter and judge on the subject. My only logical course of action is therefore to respond in a similar matter and ignore your claims of interest in the matter in the future on this subject and instead devote my time to those who are actually willing to listen to reason and common sense. Thank you.

[The Source]

I think, from looking at the HK factory modules and some of the lead-up to it, it must have been time. It's almost all there, the parts for it are all ready to drop into the story, it just needs the final bits put together...

You know what. After rethinking about the levels, there was a mess of stuff done. All they needed to do is stitch things together. I am wondering if Obsidian felt optimistic, and agreed with the new deadline believing it could be finished.

 

Overall, the game does have an ending, and your companions' fates are explained by Kreia. Malacore is suffering from bad edits, which may be do to not giving 'themselves' enough time to fix them. HK-Factory was last second deleted because they didn't manage the job in a way to give 'themselves' enough time to finish it. This has nothing to do with Lucas Arts giving Obsidian a closser deadline (time restraints), but with Obsidian not managing their workload to fit the time they did agree upon (giving themselves enough time).

 

Yeah. This game is not a 'cliff hanger' in the sense that everything has not been said, but with what has been edited baddly. The only questions we should be asking when we complete the game are:

1. (LS) Where is the Exile going?

2. (DS) Did the Exile survive Malacore?

3. What happened to Revan?

 

Because Obsidian didn't give 'themselves' enough time to edit the game, we have some questionable gaps in the story.

 

Jediphile - Chris clearly blamed himself for not having enough time. Read it again, and look at what I underlined. That means that they didn't give 'themselves' enough time to deal with the issues at hand. (Post #73)

 

He does not say, "I wish we were given more time." Read what I bolded and underlined in post #73 carefully. They didn't manage the workload correctly to meet the new deadline they agreed upon; therefore, they (Obsidian) didn't give themselves enough time. Obsidian could have felt optimistic, and agreed with Lucas Arts on a new release date.

 

This is not a 'time restraint' issue, this is a 'time and workload management' issue, which Obsidian inflicted upon themselves.

[Emperor Devon]

That the deadline was changed is therefore an undeniable fact.

 

I have not and will not deny that. But why you are bringing up that topic I can only guess.

 

But let me ask you this: Are you suggesting the idea that cutting two months from the development schedule of a game (and especially this game) will not have consequences?

 

Of course it will have consequences. But whether they are good or bad ones is a different matter. It would've been cool to have the cut content in TSL, but I don't think its absence detracts from the game that much.

 

MacLeodGR demanded proof, however, and strangely now that he has proof that the deadline was changed, he does not seem particularly eager to acknowledge it...

 

I think you are failing to grasp the point. It's not the deadline changing, but whether the cut content was missing due to time constraints or whatnot. Simply saying the deadline changed is no proof of that. Since quite a few bits of the cut content could've been implemented in less than a day, I am doubtful.

 

You may think they were cut for reasons other than time constrains. Fair enough.

 

Exactly.

 

You don't cut essential plot unless you have no other choice.

 

The Goto scene could've been made by a modder in less than fifteen minutes. Surely Obsidian's deadline was not strained to a matter of minutes?

[Jediphile]

You know what. After rethinking about the levels, there was a mess of stuff done. All they needed to do is stitch things together. I am wondering if Obsidian felt optimistic, and agreed with the new deadline believing it could be finished.

 

Overall, the game does have an ending, and your companions' fates are explained by Kreia. Malacore is suffering from bad edits, which may be do to not giving 'themselves' enough time to fix them. HK-Factory was last second deleted because they didn't manage the job in a way to give 'themselves' enough time to finish it. This has nothing to do with Lucas Arts giving Obsidian a closser deadline (time restraints), but with Obsidian not managing their workload to fit the time they did agree upon (giving themselves enough time).

 

To me this is an apologist argument in favor of LA, who clearly can do no wrong unless they say so in public themselves. Any evidence to the contrary is ignored, because LA did not confess to it themselves, and so the blame must by definition lie somewhere else, in this case Obsidian. That Obsidian would most likely never do another project for LA if they spoke out in public is apparently not worth considering in that equation...

 

Because Obsidian didn't give 'themselves' enough time to edit the game, we have some questionable gaps in the story.

 

That Obsidian didn't give themselves enough time is a claim that you will have to provide proof for. I have provided proof that the deadline was changed. Where is your proof?

 

Jediphile - Chris clearly blamed himself for not having enough time. Read it again, and look at what I underlined. That means that they didn't give 'themselves' enough time to deal with the issues at hand. (Post #73)

 

No, that's argumentative. It is also a circular argument. Of course Chris is going to "blame himself". And read that again - it's not so much blame as regret, which is not the same thing. And you're still ignoring that Obsidian casting blame on LA will have consequences that would make them keep their silence. To say the least, your conclusions are highly questionable.

 

Obsidian could have felt optimistic, and agreed with Lucas Arts on a new release date.

 

You speculate, then immediately proceed to accept that that speculation as fact, so that you can place the blame with Obsidian. Again, where is your proof?

 

This is not a 'time restraint' issue, this is a 'time and workload management' issue, which Obsidian inflicted upon themselves.

 

Still don't see any proof. And you're forgetting that the deadline is not something that is Obsidian can discuss with LA. No, it's something that LA dictates. That TSL was Obsidian's first game is not insignificant.

[The Source]

Jediphile - After reading everyone's comments, and seeing what proof people brought to this thread, I can honestly say that everything is pointing into a direction that you are not lookiing at. Chris Avellone's comments speak for themselves. There are other reasons to why certain 'cut content' has been removed, and 'time restraints' are not soley the answer.

 

When it comes to the Droid Planet and Malacore V, Obsidian didn't give 'themselves' enough time, and they didn't manage the remaining workload. Its all about managing the workload to fit the time, and Chris Avellone clearly said it was his fault. However, this doesn't answer why 'all' the other cut content, that he doesn't talk about, had to be removed (edited) from the game. As you may have noticed, he mostly was focusing on the endgame.

 

As for the remaining content, that he does not mention, the reasons for their omittion are just not publically known. Everything else was editted out of the game, or information was accidentaly left in game, for unknown reasons. These reasons can be anything from: 1) Not fitting the current storyline. 2) Not giving 'themselves' enough time to edit stuff out. 3) Accidentally, left items behind during the editting phase. 4) Etc...

 

------------------------------------------

 

Editted: Added::

There is one thing I did get from this conversation. I have deep respect for Chris Avellone. He stood up to the plate, and said, "The buck stops here." He knew he made a mistake, and then he came forward to admit his error. I have to admire that. Not many people would admit when they are wrong, and he clearly comes forth with his faults. Good man!

[Jediphile]

Jediphile - After reading everyone's comments, and seeing what proof people brought to this thread, I can honestly say that everything is pointing into a direction that you are not lookiing at.

 

What I can honestly say is:

 

1. You still put yourself up as the authority you finally gets to judge this matter. I fail to see how you can assume that position.

 

2. You still bring no proof to support your position.

 

3. I was correct to assume that appealing to your common sense was futile.

 

When it comes to the Droid Planet and Malacore V, Obsidian didn't give 'themselves' enough time, and they didn't manage the remaining workload. Its all about managing the workload to fit the time, and Chris Avellone clearly said it was his fault. However, this doesn't answer why 'all' the other cut content, that he doesn't talk about, had to be removed (edited) from the game. As you may have noticed, he mostly was focusing on the endgame.

 

4. This is still speculative, and you bring no proof to support it. You demanded proof, but provide none yourself, and yet you expect other people to accept your conclusions. Please tell us why we should? After all, if you ignore not only our assumptions, let alone our proof, then we should we accept your speculations without any proof? Basically you expect one set of rules to apply to you and another to apply to those you disagree with. That does not seem very fair to me.

[The Source]

What I can honestly say is:

 

1. You still put yourself up as the authority you finally gets to judge this matter. I fail to see how you can assume that position.

There are far more people qualified to make a conclusion than myself. I was talking mostly about what I have concluded, and how I saw it through my own eyes. I don't speak for everyone else. Their posts speak for themselves, and I happen to agree with them.

 

I didn't need any proof, for I wasn't the one yelling, "The sky is falling. The sky is falling." Plus, everyone provided my proof for me. I didn't need any. The original poster of the Chris Avellon quote took it out of context, and I placed it back into context. As you can see, the quote speaks volumes when you place it back into its original form. Leaving out words can change a quote's or a scentence's meaning. Removing the quote from a paragraph can also change the meaning. I just placed it back into context. It is not my fault that your proof back fired.

 

I personally don't like to be manipulated, and now I know how everyone else felt when I pulled what you did. A lesson greatly learned well.

 

Next time you come to the table, bring some difinitive proof. Don't take anything out of context, and read things from beginning to end. Go cry in a corner or something.

 

Have a nice day.

 

In the greatest words ever spoken by the Deadman, this topic will "Rest in Peace."

[Vaelastraz]

Unlike KotOR, TSL expects you to think about these things. As the Ebon Hawk was extremely damaged, it would have been a stupid idea to just leave it there. It's most likely that the crew was repairing it. If anything, I would wonder about why only two companions can come with you on the Star Forge. The Ebon Hawk was protected by the Jedi, after all.

 

 

 

Isn't it obvious? If you're on the light side, the remote somehow got by Goto to activate the mass shadow generator. If you're on the dark side, the remote fails.

 

 

 

A minor thing buried deep in HK's dialogue compared to the huge plot hole in KotOR. They never even explain how Revan and Malak fell to the dark side. All that's stated is "something happened to them along the Rim", although it's never explained.

 

 

 

How? All that those cut parts of the game really do is show scenes with obvious outcomes, or add other things that prolong the gameplay and have no relevance to the plot.

 

Following your logic it seems "obvious" that the PC trimuphs versus his/her enemies. And in fact it is.

 

But we still want to see such things in the game.

 

Would you be satisfied with star wars episode 6 if the final battle was left out, but instead (and that is even more than kotor 2 offers) a narrator tells us

"and in the end the emperor was defeated and the Alliance was victorious"?

 

 

A good plot does not only have the absolutely necessary elements in it. One common mistake of writers is that they assume that some things are "logical" when they really are not.

[Emperor Devon]

Would you be satisfied with star wars episode 6 if the final battle was leftout, but instead (and that is even more than kotor 2 offers) a narrator tells us

"and in the end the emperor was defeated and the Alliance was victorious"?

 

I would not be. However, those are completely different situations, which I assume you realize.

[Jediphile]

There are far more people qualified to make a conclusion than myself. I was talking mostly about what I have concluded, and how I saw it through my own eyes. I don't speak for everyone else.

 

Erm, in a word: No.

 

Jediphile - After reading everyone's comments, and seeing what proof people brought to this thread, I can honestly say that everything is pointing into a direction that you are not lookiing at.

 

This is judgmental, not disagreement. You look upon what I conclude, and then you judge it as wrong. You don't say you merely disagree with it, you flat out say that my conclusion is incorrect. There is a significant difference between the two, whether you like to admit it or not.

 

And when you take it upon yourself to say things like "I can honestly say that everything is pointing into a direction that you are not looking at", then you're speaking to factual relevance and therefore setting yourself up as an authority on the subject. By all means disagree, but then stop there. Because there is no basis for me accepting your "judgment" over that of anyone else unless you can provide factual information to support your position. Which, so far, you have not.

 

I didn't need any proof, for I wasn't the one yelling, "The sky is falling. The sky is falling."

 

Who did? Nobody did. Some of us think the game was cut due to a premature deadline. I have proven that the deadline was indeed changed during the last eight (or rather six, as it were) months of work. A conservative estimate leads to the conclusion that the worktime from june 2004 to the deadline was cut by about 25%, since eight months remaining were cut down to six months - of course, you can argue that finishing the game in febuary when it was to come out is senseless, since the game would naturally have to be completed some time before its release, but then if you do that, you would have to cut the time between program completion until release away from both the old deadline and the new one. Assuming that's a month, it would then be seven months cut down to five, making the cut schedule closer to 30%, and so making the equation even worse. The only conclusion possible is that the deadline was cut by at least 25% or more after june 2004. Those are the cold, hard facts.

 

Granted, the consequences can then be argued, but you have not proven that yours are correct, nor that mine are wrong. Indeed, at the risk of repeating myself, your conclusions are highly questionable, since it would seem obvious that cutting the two months from the last eight before the deadline would naturally have an impact on any game.

 

Does saying that cutting the deadline from june by 25% results in cuts to the plot constitute yelling that "the sky is falling?" If it does, then you'll have to prove that too. After all, it goes both ways - if you won't accept my word on this subject, then why should I accept yours?

 

Plus, everyone provided my proof for me. I didn't need any. The original poster of the Chris Avellon quote took it out of context, and I placed it back into context. As you can see, the quote speaks volumes when you place it back into its original form. Leaving out words can change a quote's or a scentence's meaning. Removing the quote from a paragraph can also change the meaning. I just placed it back into context. It is not my fault that your proof back fired.

 

Basically you're accusing The Architect of quoting out of context, which is rather impolite. At the very least you'll have to provide proof for that claim as well, and that will be difficult since The Architect did not misquote - he merely emphasized different things than you did. And by suggesting otherwise, you're again claiming a position of authority in this matter, as if you are the one who gets to decide what is the correct interpretation of what Chris Avellone said. What, the Architect doesn't have the right to think that other things in that interview were more significant that what you thought? Sure he does. So do I btw, and I happen to agree more with him than I do with you. As I've already said, it seems to me that Avellone accepts responsibility more on a sense of regret than because of guilt, because I still think that LA dictated the deadline, and that Obsidian had no choice but to comply. You continue to ignore the argument that Obsidian was not in a position to negotiate, since TSL was their first game, and they badly needed to establish themselves in the business. A dispute with a giant like LA in their very first game could have made them go bust before they even began. Besides, rumor has it that LA are hard to work for, and that this is the reason Bioware no longer does games for them.

 

I'll just repost this, since you apparently didn't read it the first time:

 

"Oh, and we know that LucasArts is notorious for handing developers ridiculously short development timetables, and forcing them to shove things out the door before the holiday rush."

 

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html

 

I personally don't like to be manipulated, and now I know how everyone else felt when I pulled what you did. A lesson greatly learned well.

 

If you learned something that's good. However, I really should report your passive-agressive comments here to the moderators... Strangely, I don't enjoy it when people infer that I'm being manipulative just because I unveil their flawed arguments.

 

Next time you come to the table, bring some difinitive proof. Don't take anything out of context, and read things from beginning to end. Go cry in a corner or something.

 

The judge has spoken!

 

Next time, bring ANY evidence yourself

 

In the greatest words ever spoken by the Deadman, this topic will "Rest in Peace."

 

Oops, seems I read the final judgment too late... How will I ever sleep tonight?

 

Would you be satisfied with star wars episode 6 if the final battle was left out, but instead (and that is even more than kotor 2 offers) a narrator tells us

"and in the end the emperor was defeated and the Alliance was victorious"?

I would not be. However, those are completely different situations, which I assume you realize.

 

How, then, if we see Luke dragging Vader towards a ship, Lando flying the Falcon out of the Death Star, which then explodes, but we see neither of them escape, then Leia tells Han that Luke survived, then cut to endtitles?

 

Or, if you find it significant that Luke is the protagonist, Luke pulls Vader to the ship. We see Lando destroy the main reactor of the Death Star, then he and Wedge rush to the exit, but we just see Luke escaping with the exploding Death Star in the background - we don't know if Lando or Wedge survived, and we see nothing of what Han and Leia experienced on Endor after Luke left. That's similar, because Luke - like the Exile - is the main character, and we see nothing of what happens to his friends. And that Han and Leia were successful can be assumed as a matter of course - just as Remote's success or failure can - since the Death Star could not have been destroyed if they did not succeed.

 

Would either of those be satisfying and "complete"?

[StormBeard]

Well I was reading through this thread, and just after all I decieded to register just because of it.

 

Mostly, the two of you going back and forth at each other over OPINIONS is just pushing it too far. You are more than welcome to say well, I think the game was not finished, or I think the game was finished, according to these examples.

 

There are strong arguements for either side. The voice and script in the files. The comments that it was not just lucasarts changing the release time for the game. There was stuff in the game that was left out, removed, or changed. You guys NEED to agree on that, and stop trying to be so petty.

 

When I finished the game, It felt like a sort of empty ending. I felt like It was when I landed on the star forge planet and the group was killed/joined me depending on side was left out. Like the big silence before the storm, only their was no storm.

 

It felt deflated.

 

Am I wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Does that mean people should berate me because thats how I felt? Should I go on and on because someone feels the game was complete? Of course not. The game was released, we played it. We enjoyed it or not.

 

Here's to KotoR III having a bit more flashy ending.

[Darth InSidious]

There's a difference between leaving the odd bit to the imagination, and leaving a pivotal piece of the climax out.

 

Also, as Mac has stated, Chris Avellone himself has stated that the reason for the cutting of M4-78, the Droid Factory and the endscenes was time.

 

Even if this weren't the case, the ending is still humdrum at best. All you do is kill things for about an hour. It gets repetitive and dull.

[Jediphile]

Mostly, the two of you going back and forth at each other over OPINIONS is just pushing it too far. You are more than welcome to say well, I think the game was not finished, or I think the game was finished, according to these examples.

 

There are strong arguements for either side. The voice and script in the files. The comments that it was not just lucasarts changing the release time for the game. There was stuff in the game that was left out, removed, or changed. You guys NEED to agree on that, and stop trying to be so petty.

 

One post and already you've lost your way...

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of what you're trying to say, but consider this for a moment - would you like it if someone suggested you were petty for defending your position? Would MacLeodGR? Would I?

 

So if I choose to be insulted and ignore all your arguments, you've now given me ample opportunity to do so, since I can choose rather to defend my position and spend all my time and effort to dismiss your accusation of me being petty. Whether I will do so or not is my determination to make. I don't NEED to agree on anything, if I don't want to.

 

Basically, by inferring petty feelings on my behalf (and MacLeodGR's, too, but I can't speak for him), you trigger an unkind response with almost complete certainty. This is not what you want to do. I can tell that it is not what you're aiming for with your comments here. Yet it is the reaction you're likely to get, unless both MacLeodGR and I can rise above the namecalling and consider your actual arguments. And if we do that, it will be to our own credit and not yours. Entering a topic by immediately calling other people petty does not form a sound basis for a meaningful discussion IMHO, since it is then already well on its way to a flamefest.

 

Still, I will stay with my position that simply say that I think the game is cut. Nothing I've seen has changed my mind on the subject. The real problem in this topic is that MacLeodGR is judging my arguments to be wrong just because he doesn't agree with them. He has a right to his opinion, but he has not been arguing opinions, and he has stated that the game is finished as a matter of fact without providing evidence to support that claim, while I have questioned this and also brought evidence to support that position. Of course, that evidence can be questioned. I'm not denying that. But I don't see why MacLeodGR's interpretation of that evidence should be considered any more valid that mine or anyone else's.

 

But, of course, the matter is arguable. If there was conclusive evidence either way, then there would be no discussion. What irks me the wrong way is when people basically argue that because there is no definite evidence that proves the game was unfinished - since LA won't give it to us and Obsidian can't - then it must be finished. No, because there is no evidence to prove that it was finished either. So it becomes a matter open to interpretation, and I'm scarcely the only one who feels it's unfinished - that's why I provided links to Gamespy's resident cynic, who has far better credentials than I do for evaluating this matter.

 

When I finished the game, It felt like a sort of empty ending. I felt like It was when I landed on the star forge planet and the group was killed/joined me depending on side was left out. Like the big silence before the storm, only their was no storm.

 

It felt deflated.

 

Am I wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Does that mean people should berate me because thats how I felt? Should I go on and on because someone feels the game was complete? Of course not. The game was released, we played it. We enjoyed it or not.

 

Here's to KotoR III having a bit more flashy ending.

 

Yes, that's pretty much how I felt as well. I suppose I got the strongest notion of an imcomplete game and plot when I met with the masters on Dantooine, and after finishing the game felt that everything before that point had been great, while everything after it felt - as you say - deflated.

 

TSL is a great game. I love the plot. But I only found that out by participating in discussion on the cut content and the exploring it myself. It's not that the cut content exists that makes the game incomplete to me. No, it's that I felt the plot took a huge turn to the left at Dantooine and left many of the plots hanging without any resolution to them at all. TSL is a plot-driven game, as are many RPGs. It's not just a boring wander through the graphics and baddies. If I just wanted an action game, where I hack 'n slash my way through the hordes of monsters, then I'd play a FPS. But I wanted something else. I wanted drama as well as action. Towards the end, TSL only gave me the latter...

 

There's a difference between leaving the odd bit to the imagination, and leaving a pivotal piece of the climax out.

 

Also, as Mac has stated, Chris Avellone himself has stated that the reason for the cutting of M4-78, the Droid Factory and the endscenes was time.

 

No doubt about that. The big question is why the team ran out of time? My point has been that LA changed the deadline against Obsidian's wishes, only Obsidian could not say or do anything about it, since TSL was their first game, and they had no weight in the industry at the time. Hence I pointed to the changed release date - as per the first movie, which says the game woule be out in febuary for BOTH Xbox and pc - and Gamespy's resident cynic saying that LA is notorious for pushing deadlines. To me this paints a clear picture of what happened.

 

Even if this weren't the case, the ending is still humdrum at best. All you do is kill things for about an hour. It gets repetitive and dull.

 

Quite.

[Emperor Devon]

How, then, if we see Luke dragging Vader towards a ship, Lando flying the Falcon out of the Death Star, which then explodes, but we see neither of them escape, then Leia tells Han that Luke survived, then cut to endtitles?

 

Different situation, different time. You can't apply the end of RotJ to the middle of KotOR.

 

Welcome to LF, StormBeard! Enjoy your stay!

[goldberry]

I think Jediphile and Emporor Emperor Devon will have to agree to disagree, cause this isn't gonna be worked out with words. Though this thread really does show both sides of the arguement in a really good way. I like the way its going, but as has been said, it's all opinions, and nothing's cast in stone.

 

@Devon: I like how you changed your avatar back. much better.

[Emperor Devon]

I think Jediphile and Emporor Devon

 

Emporor Devon? Who is this Emporor you speak of?

 

I'n not trying to convince Jediphile of anything. I just consider debating a fun activity.

 

@Devon: I like how you changed your avatar back. much better.

 

I agree. The fact that I and not Jae am the Dark Ruler Person of the Sith is included in my profile.

[goldberry]

My post has been edited to change the overlook of spelling your unimportant username incorrectly.

[Emperor Devon]

I was joking, goldberry.

[goldberry]

Yes, I'm aware of that lol

[The Source]

I think Jediphile and Emporor Emperor Devon will have to agree to disagree, cause this isn't gonna be worked out with words. Though this thread really does show both sides of the arguement in a really good way. I like the way its going, but as has been said, it's all opinions, and nothing's cast in stone.

 

@Devon: I like how you changed your avatar back. much better.

One of the greatest things about visiting forums is that you can debate. In some cases, we will never truely know what had occured. We could speculate until our faces are blue, but eventually we will all need some oxygen. Lol...

 

When people come into this thread, they will read its contents, and then they will draw their own conclusion. We did get pretty thick in explinations, the jabs, and everything else.

 

I am sure there is an article hidden out there, which Obsidian had explained what occured. It would be interesting to find something that was not another site's speculation, and more in the lines of Obsidian's perspective. This would be wishfull thinking. We will never have 100% proof about why certain things were 'accidently left in' or 'accidently taken out' or 'deleted for inconsistancy' or... You can fill in the blanks.

 

All I know is that 'not all' of the 'cut content' was removed due to time restraints. Editting stuff is essential, so a product can be polished into finality. Did Obsidian omit certain items accidently, or did they forget to remove them? Why? Were the pieces removed for inconsistancy? Story change? Etc... To say that 'all the cut content was removed due to time restraints' is very illogical.

 

What I did prove is that the possibilities, that led to some of the information to be cut, are practically endless. We will never truely know why each and every piece was omitted or accidently left in.

 

If you are interested in this subject, I suggest you read all the posts in this thread. Even though there are gabs taken here or there, each of us have stated some interesting revelations.

 

[Arátoeldar]

Forgive me, but I find your reasoning flawed. Of course LA will not admit to it. Do you ever hear Microsoft admit that any of their programs have flaws? People rarely admit to their mistakes if they can get away with it, and in business that is virtually guaranteed, since the company can be held accountable for any admission of a flawed product.

 

Obsidian is a young company of experienced people in the business. But it's still a young company. They cannot stand up to a giant like LA. Sure, they could moan about the treatment they received from LA, but in that case they'll never work on KotOR3 or any other LA product again. That is not a very sound marketing strategy.

 

So of course you're not going to hear any admission from the companies involved, at least not officially. If that is what you demand, then you're asking the impossible. But you can open your eyes and use common sense, if you're willing. But it sounds to me you don't want to look at this matter objectively and refuse to accept anything but cold hard facts. Those might exist, but frankly I have better things to do that spend time looking for them. Besides, even if I found them, I doubt you would accept them.

 

QFE While Obsidian Entertainment had experience as being made up of former Black Isle Studios. All they had to do was to look at the demise of Troika Games. Troika Games had made three good if buggy RPGs. For the most part all they did was complain about the Publishers instead of fixing their games.

[The Source]

QFE While Obsidian Entertainment had experience as being made up of former Black Isle Studios. All they had to do was to look at the demise of Troika Games. Troika Games had made three good if buggy RPGs. For the most part all they did was complain about the Publishers instead of fixing their games.

De'ja'vu

[Arátoeldar]

De'ja'vu

 

No De'ja'vu. Black Isle Studios went under because of the the mismanagement/stupidity of their owner/publisher Interplay.

[goldberry]

QFE While Obsidian Entertainment had experience as being made up of former Black Isle Studios. All they had to do was to look at the demise of Troika Games. Troika Games had made three good if buggy RPGs. For the most part all they did was complain about the Publishers instead of fixing their games.

 

De'ja'vu! MacLeodGR is so right on this one

 

EDIT: So what we're forseeing is that Lucasarts will drag the gamemakers under. I think Bioware escaped just in time, but maybe we'll be waving bye bye to Obsidian. It's all jokes guys, I have no real feelings on this subject one way or the other. It's a game, it's here, I play it, I mod it.