A Force choking Jedi

[Luke.Skywalker]

An issue that as been in my mind for a while that I thought I would discuss here.

 

In ROTJ when Luke first enters Jabba's Palace, he is cut off by 2 Gamorrean Guards, and Force chokes them. I thought that Force choke is a Dark side ability. Also, Isn't it against a Jedi's nature to kill some one that has not attacked them? The Gamorreans did not attack him, but stopped him from passing. Why is it that in the movies Luke is the only Jedi that has used force choke?

 

With these questions I also am reminded in Jedi Acadamy game, Kyle Katarn says

"...force powers are never inherintally good or bad, it's how you use them."

 

But during Lukes training Yoda tells him "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

 

Any one have any comments?

[PoiuyWired]

Well, obviously Luke did not kill piggie, did he?

 

He is not using it in a dark way. I am not going to pull a "all force is neutral" here cause that would be another discussion, but a great deal of so-called DS power comes from the fact that most would use the power in a evil way. Yes, there is a non-darkside forcelightning, and yes a few lightside jedis uses it, and its not just Kyle or something.

[Luke.Skywalker]

I think it can tie into the fact that Anakin/Vader was supposed to bring balance to the force and your interpretation of what that means. A Jedi uses what are viewed as good force powers and a sith useing more dark force powers as well. Both Jedi and Sith using neutral stuff like force throw. Either way it's sort of lop sided. I think part of the balancing of the force which Anakin was to bring about, aside from killing the Sith, was to be in control of the entire spectrum and not necessarily turning bad. Sort of like being in control of your power instead of it being in control of you. At the end of ROTJ Vader stopped being bad and became in control again. At that point, I think, he discovered the sevret to living forever like it was discussed in ROTS between him and Palpy. The secret being giving yourself to the force and disappearing like Obi-Wan and Yoda did which was taught to them by Qui-Gon Jinn.

 

So I think in the case of Luke force choking the guard, there great amout of temptation to go evil, he was in a fair amout of control. He didn't kidd the guard and nor did he want to. It was probably more of a force grabbing of the neck and pushing him against the wall. Sort of like grabbing someones neck with your hand and tossing them against the wall like you see in movies or on tv.

 

WOW! I had never looked at it from the point of view. It does make sence though. Just like the force lightning, some Jedi use it just the same as Sith.

[MagnaGuard]

I'm not sure whether it's a dark side force ability or not. A jedi could probably use it to capture somebody for interrogation by cutting of their air supply long enough to make them pass out.

[Prime]

In ROTJ when Luke first enters Jabba's Palace, he is cut off by 2 Gamorrean Guards, and Force chokes them. I thought that Force choke is a Dark side ability. Also, Isn't it against a Jedi's nature to kill some one that has not attacked them?

I don't believe he killed them, but merely incapacitated them.

 

That being said, Luke was starting on the path to the dark side, which he then turned away from at the end of ROTJ.

 

With these questions I also am reminded in Jedi Acadamy game, Kyle Katarn says

"...force powers are never inherintally good or bad, it's how you use them."

However, we have seen that in almost every case such an attitude has led to the dark side, sooner or later.

 

Also, we know for certain from Lucas that Lightning (which he calls "Sith Lightning") is in fact a dark side power, and in the films at least exclusively a skill used by the Sith.

 

But during Lukes training Yoda tells him "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

Personally, I think this is the most misinterpreted/over analyzed quotes in all of Star Wars. It can be debated of course, but my impression is that this comment is in a more general sense. I take it as the Jedi will never use the Force to initiate conflict. They will always act defensively (royal guards attacking Yoda, clones attacking Jedi, etc.) Basically, the Jedi use the force to repel attackers.

 

I think it can tie into the fact that Anakin/Vader was supposed to bring balance to the force and your interpretation of what that means.

I think it has been stated on several occassions that bringing balance means destroying the Sith who corrupt the force, this allowing the Force to return to its natural state.

 

I think part of the balancing of the force which Anakin was to bring about, aside from killing the Sith, was to be in control of the entire spectrum and not necessarily turning bad.

But he did turn to evil, didn't he?

 

Again, we have seen that everyone who attempts to use both sides eventually falls. In fact, the current Legacy of the Force novel series discusses this issue.

 

At the end of ROTJ Vader stopped being bad and became in control again. At that point, I think, he discovered the sevret to living forever like it was discussed in ROTS between him and Palpy. The secret being giving yourself to the force and disappearing like Obi-Wan and Yoda did which was taught to them by Qui-Gon Jinn.

But as Qui-Gon stated, the ability to become one with the Force can only be achieved by becoming completely selfless, etc., which is why the Sith would never achieve that power. Anakin was able to become one only because he renounced completely the ways of the Sith, not because he somehow balanced both philosophies (which I don't think is possible).

[Luke.Skywalker]

^^^

Prime, I think your status should be 'The Forum's Critic'...LOL!

[Prime]

^^^

Prime, I think your status should be 'The Forum's Critic'...LOL!

Not trying to criticize! Just trying to give my point of view.

[Luke.Skywalker]

Not trying to criticize! Just trying to give my point of view.

 

I meant that as a compliment. You did have some very good points on the issue.

[Luke.Skywalker]

Vader did turn evil but there was still that conflict between him. He was evil but at some level he was still asking himself 'Hey, WTF am I doing?'. But then at the end of Jedi he turns good again.

 

I agree with this because, after finding out that he supposedly killed his wife, Obi Wan leaving him for dead, and going against the Jedi Order he had nothing left to live for. Kind of like using his turning Sith as a suicide. But when he discovered he had a son, that's when he started having inner conflicts.

 

Another thing to think about is that Vader mastered the light side of the Force. If he wasn't bound by the mechanical suit he most likely would've mastered the dark side. but then he snapped out of being evil. He was good but master of both sides.

 

Would this statment be a paradox? You just said that 'if he was not bound by the mechanical suit he most likely would've mastered the dark side', and then ending your statment with 'master of both sides'.

 

Star Wars stuff can be interpreted many ways. And that's part of what makes it so f***ing fun.

 

This is the reason why I feel George left a lot unanswered, so that any one regardless of their age, sex, or race could relate to the movies.

[Negative Sun]

Luke doesn't kill the Gamorreans (as far as I know), he just used it to repel them, kinda like Force Push, he could have used Mind Trick, but I think he just preferred to take them out silently and quickly...

 

Let's not forget as well, Yoda was able to deflect Force Lightning, for that to happen I believe he must be able to create it as well, but he will never use it for attack, and since he is a Jedi, I cannot think of any reason (besides training) that he would use it...

[MagnaGuard]

Let's not forget as well, Yoda was able to deflect Force Lightning, for that to happen I believe he must be able to create it as well, but he will never use it for attack, and since he is a Jedi, I cannot think of any reason (besides training) that he would use it...

 

Actually, there was a type of energy shield he created in front of his hands although it's barely visible.

[PoiuyWired]

Being able to Deflect does not equal to being able to create...

[Luke.Skywalker]

But in order to defend against such an attack one must learn of it. If so, then Yoda would have the ability to produce force lightning. But seeming how force lightning is more of an attack ability he would not use it.

[Prime]

It has been stated that bringing balance was the destroying of ther Sith. But you'll also remember that conversation between Mace Windu and Yoda where they said that the prophecy could have been mis-read or mis-interpreted. It can also depend on your definition of corruption of the Force.

Here is what Lucas says about balancing the Force. We know for a fact that balancing a force = doing away with the Sith:

 

"Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil...it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of Anger, Hatred, Sense of Loss, Possesiveness, Jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.

 

And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the Dark Side..

 

Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings Balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

 

I agree with this because, after finding out that he supposedly killed his wife, Obi Wan leaving him for dead, and going against the Jedi Order he had nothing left to live for. Kind of like using his turning Sith as a suicide. But when he discovered he had a son, that's when he started having inner conflicts.

I haven't read it, but I believe the novel Dark Lord discusses such inner conflicts, amung other sources. I think these conficts are within him long before he discovers the existence of his son.

 

But in order to defend against such an attack one must learn of it. If so, then Yoda would have the ability to produce force lightning. But seeming how force lightning is more of an attack ability he would not use it.

The Jedi had no prior knowledge (at the time of Ep2 anyway. Perhaps such knowledge was lost) of Sith Lightning, but were still able to defend against it. There are two G-canon occasions of this:

 

From ROTJ novelization:

"But if it was force-generated, it could be Force repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful- the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they course over and into him ..."

 

From AOTC novelization:

"But this was no simple warrior enemy. Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning, unknown to the Jedi, charged all about the trapped and lifted Jedi Padawan."

[Luke.Skywalker]

The Jedi had no prior knowledge (at the time of Ep2 anyway. Perhaps such knowledge was lost) of Sith Lightning, but were still able to defend against it.

 

But as seen in Ep2, Obi-wan deflected Dooku's lightning attack with his saber. If he had no knowledge of the power how would he know his lightsaber would defend against it? Also, Yoda had used his hand to deflect the attack and also had absorbed the final bolts. If Yoda was unfamiliar with such powers then he would not have full control over it as he did in the movie. Since he did, reguardless of his age and rank of master, it would prove he had knowledge of it. Plus, as seen in Ep3 Mace Windu deflected Sidious' lightning with his lightsaber, thus another sign that the power was known to Jedi.

 

From ROTJ novelization:

"But if it was force-generated, it could be Force repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful- the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they course over and into him ..."

 

Luke did not go through years of training like other Jedi before him. It seems as if he realized that he could deflect it, but was unable to have control over the attack.

 

From AOTC novelization:

"But this was no simple warrior enemy. Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning, unknown to the Jedi, charged all about the trapped and lifted Jedi Padawan."

 

This describes Anakin being attacked by Dooku's lightning. Being a Jedi Padawan he did not have the knowledge of such powers, thus why he had no defence against it. This is why Obi-wan yelled at him when he charged for Dooku. If he would have stood by and waited for the attack he would have realized how to deflect it, but like his son, he would not be able to control it.

 

Also when it says 'unknown to the Jedi' it is probably refering to Anakin, and not the whole Jedi Order.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_lightning This link describes force lightning as being a purely energy-based attack used most commonly by, but not restricted to, the Sith.

[Cygnus Q'ol]

Also, I believe a lightsaber would help to absorb or deflect the energy.

[Prime]

Sorry Luke, just saw this now. So if you are still interested...

 

But as seen in Ep2, Obi-wan deflected Dooku's lightning attack with his saber. If he had no knowledge of the power how would he know his lightsaber would defend against it? Also, Yoda had used his hand to deflect the attack and also had absorbed the final bolts. If Yoda was unfamiliar with such powers then he would not have full control over it as he did in the movie. Since he did, reguardless of his age and rank of master, it would prove he had knowledge of it. Plus, as seen in Ep3 Mace Windu deflected Sidious' lightning with his lightsaber, thus another sign that the power was known to Jedi.

Not necessarily, as the the quote from ROTJ implies:

 

"But if it was force-generated, it could be Force repelled."

 

This seems to indicate that there are some similarities or commonality across all Force generated skills. If the Jedi knew this and knew how to counter some force attacks (push?), then they could reasonably assume that they could use the same techniques to some degree again other force attacks that they knew nothing about (lightning in this case).

 

Luke did not go through years of training like other Jedi before him. It seems as if he realized that he could deflect it, but was unable to have control over the attack.

There is probably a difference between knowing how and being able to. It would be like a sport. Even the laziest couch potato might know the fundamentals of how a sport is to be played, but it is very hard to execute those fundamentals with the skill of a professional athlete.

 

Luke might have technically known how to do it, but he might not have had the skill required.

 

This describes Anakin being attacked by Dooku's lightning. Being a Jedi Padawan he did not have the knowledge of such powers, thus why he had no defence against it. This is why Obi-wan yelled at him when he charged for Dooku. If he would have stood by and waited for the attack he would have realized how to deflect it, but like his son, he would not be able to control it.

IIRC at that point the Jedi did not yet know that Dooku had joined the Sith. I think Kenobi's concern was that Anakin was not skilled enough to single-handedly take on Dooku, who was once the Order's greatest lightsaber master.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_lightning This link describes force lightning as being a purely energy-based attack used most commonly by, but not restricted to, the Sith.

Wiki can say what it wants. We know directly from Lucas that lightning is the domain of the Sith and the dark side, at least in the movie universe.

[Kurgan]

I think this is the difference between WORDS and DEEDS.

 

The only clue in the movies we have that Jedi would have any reservations about using the Force to attack or kill in battle is Yoda's statement "A Jedi used the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack" in Empire Strikes Back.

 

In ROTJ we see Luke use the Force to attack the Gammorean guards. Whether he killed them or not, he definatley attacked them with the Force. In the Prequel trilogy we frequently have examples of Jedi using the Force to attack, even kill.

 

The thing is, this one line from Yoda (and the ignoring of Luke's act) has been exaggerated in video and role playing games over the years, to the point where it has become basically "fanon" that Jedi would never use the Force to attack.

 

Whether or not Yoda's philosophy changed over the 24 years from the last prequel to his meeting with Luke in ESB you can debate if you want (I think it's clear that it has). But the fact remains that what he may say or teach is not necessarily what he did in life, or what other Jedi do. They have their ideals, but don't always necessarily live up to them.

 

This is a blow to those who want to believe that Yoda is infallible, but oh well. It's a movie. I think it's clear that his character makes mistakes and even believes things that turn out to be false (like that if Luke tries to help Han and Leia he'll destroy everything they have fought for, or that Vader can't be turned from the Dark Side, etc).

 

According to the continuity we have now, it's also become canon that Yoda and Obi-Wan told Luke half-truths and self-serving lies as well. So we can't just take everything they say at 100% face value as truth, even within the story.

 

 

So no, "Force Choke" is not a "Dark Side only power" and using it doesn't turn a "good" Jedi into a "Dark" Jedi. Likewise, Jedi DO use the Force for attack. Whether or not this is a good thing or a bad thing, or a violation of the highest Jedi ideals, is up for debate. But the point is, these things are possible BECAUSE WE SEE THEM HAPPEN IN THE MOVIES.

 

If the movies are the highest standard of Star Wars canon authority, how can you have a seperate, objective standard by which the movies are judged?

 

It doesn't matter what some comic book or video game said, or what you believed as a child, the movies have the final say. So perhaps Lucas contradicted himself, if he intended Yoda to be "right" and then made him wrong in ROTJ and the Prequels. But in-continuity it simply works out that the simplest explanation is that Yoda either changed his philosophy of the Force and Luke ignored him at an opportune moment, or else this is an ideal that is rarely followed in actual practice.

 

Or do the Jedi just have some Machiavellian interpretation of their own rule that goes something like "if there's an imminent threat, I can use deadly Force with impunity, even pre-emptively"? That could well be the case as well.. a "loop hole" to avoid the Dark Side. How do you like that?

 

 

Now as to the Gammoreans... if they were NOT being choked, then why does Luke point his hand at their throats, and why do they clutch at their throats and make choking noises as they slump to the ground?

 

We know what a Force push attack looks like, it looks totally differnet than what we saw Luke do in ROTJ. It also doesn't look like a mind trick. So why does it have to be something other than what it looks like?

 

 

Wiki can say what it wants. We know directly from Lucas that lightning is the domain of the Sith and the dark side, at least in the movie universe.

 

Not that I wanted to get into a huge argument, but where does he say this?

 

Likewise I'd point out that in the EU (canon unless contradicted by the movies) that those who are not Sith (or even Dark Side) most certainly DO use Force lightning. Are you going to say that these sources are in error, and only Sith (or Dark Side adepts) can use the power?

[darthcarth]

Yeah even jacen uses it against the vong once while trying to stay alive it didnt kill them because i think the book said that jacen said that using it to kill would be off the dark side.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

I tend to look at the force more as neutral. It just depends on how you use it. True, Yoda said "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack," but as Prime said, I think that means that a Jedi doesn't use powers out of revenge or anger or to instigate conflict. If what Yoda said was taken literally, then Force Push should be looked at as a dark power, since it is used as an attack. Example- You see a civilian walking down the street, you use Force Choke on him, and you take his wallet. Yea that would be dark imo. But say you see a civilian getting attacked by some thug, you use Choke on the thug, and help the guy to safety. To me that would not be using a dark power. So no, I don't think that Luke was using a dark power to choke the Gamorreans.

[Prime]

The thing is, this one line from Yoda (and the ignoring of Luke's act) has been exaggerated in video and role playing games over the years, to the point where it has become basically "fanon" that Jedi would never use the Force to attack.

Couldn't agree more.

 

I always took that whole thing as being in the same vein as kung fu in martial arts films. All the talk is about kung fu not being about fighting but enlightenment, etc. Then they all kick everyone's ass for looking at them sideways.

 

Not that I wanted to get into a huge argument, but where does he say this?

On the AOTC commentary, when Dooku faces Yoda. He mentions that lightning is a Sith power and a dark side power, and that he shows Dooku using it so show the audience he has indeed fallen to the dark side and joined the Sith.

[Kurgan]

Funny, how he doesn't bother to explain Yoda's use of lightning in the same scene...

leading to endless excuses about how Yoda didn't really use the power...

(the EU of course, pretty much assumed up to this point that lightning is just an

advanced power, not something only "Dark Siders" or "Sith" can use...).

 

Of course Yoda explicitly says that he senses the Dark Side in Dooku, before he witnesses any lightning being used.

 

My thought is that having a red lightsaber doesn't make you a Sith or a Darksider, neither does wearing black, neither does using lightning or the Force to attack your enemies in battle. What makes you a Dark Sider is falling to the Dark Side and staying there. What makes you a Sith is joining the Sith cult and following their teachings. What is the Dark Side? According to Yoda, it's fear, anger, aggression.

 

Of course it seems the Jedi all possess those qualities in various amounts and at various times. How could it be possible to be completely defensive, completely calm and never afraid... when your job is to run around the galaxy putting out fires and fighting battles with the most dangerous foes? The Jedi sure have their work cut out for them!

 

But like any religion (and the Jedi seem to be a religion of the Force), there are ideals and then there are the people who try to follow them. Very few people (if any) ever reach the lofty ideals of a religion, much as they try. But they are there to be striven for, a kind of bar or marker that's been raised to shoot for... a goal, if you will. The Jedi are supposedly about service to the Republic, the Sith are about achieving power for themselves. Both use the Force in pursuit of their goals and objectives.

 

It seems the movies are telling us one story, Lucas is telling another story behind the scenes, the EU is telling a bunch of other overlapping stories, and then fans are telling yet another version.

 

I do think though that the real factor in confusing people and setting their interpretations of the Force and a lot of things Star Wars against the movies or Lucas himself are the Role Playing games. These RPG's are some of the earliest EU stuff and have influenced just about everything from EU novelists and comic book authors, to video game designers, to fans. Most of the mistakes and contradictions in fanon and the EU vs. the movies come ultimately in some form from those RPG's, I've been finding.

 

The thing is when the RPG's came out they were designed to be games. They had to tweak things for gameplay like any other game. And at the time there wasn't a lot of Expanded Material. The movies left big gaps in our knowledge of the SW universe. So they had to make up a lot of things. Over time, people remembered those things and/or wanted to keep them, and fit into the SW universe that had developed. There just seems to be a lot less room for those things now (having them fit into a coherent whole) and yet they are so well established that people don't want to give them up (or they forget that those were part of a game and not the original story or movies).

 

Obviously there are huge fans of those games which may beg to differ, but I think it's interesting that a lot of the problems come from those RPG's.

 

Of course a lot of other problems come from Lucas himself, what with him making it up as he went along from movie to movie, and script to script, and giving interviews and then changing his mind 10, 20, 30 years later. What we hear him say on the DVD's seems a partway merger between what he really intended, what he intends now, and what the EU has basically established in the minds of a lot of fans.

 

I think, for example, that there was no indication that the "Kessel Run" gaffe in the original Star Wars was ever intended to be anything more than Han spouting nonesense to what he thought were gullible country bumpkins he was trying to get money from, and Ben Kenobi was just humoring him and trying not to play his hand then.

 

The RPG I think gave the first official explanation about how Han was really telling the truth, in a literal sense, and not making a scientific error. The crack about his ship making only .5 past lightspeed was due to a line being shortened (or misspoken by the actor) in the movie, since the earlier sources said ".5 factors past lightspeed" or something like that. Sort of like how in Episode II the line was originally "We're all out of Ordinance" not "We're all out of Rockets."

 

Stuff changes, oh well. Sorry for getting long winded there. I just think this is one of those things where Lucas just kind of kept things loose for the sake of the story and didn't think too much about it. But as the way the rest of the "universe" developed, suddenly we had rules and these didn't fit anymore. So you needed some kind of retcon, leading people to suspect that characters simply didn't do things like this, so it must be something else, or it must be a sign that said character was slipping towards the Dark Side.

 

So why did Lucas go back to this situation of "morally ambigious Jedi actions"? Either he was being true to his roots, or these rules were never that hard and fast to begin with, despite what later fans would think.

[Kurgan]

Bah, one more thing.

 

Yoda's slamming the hapless Imperial guards into the wall, knocking them out cold (could have killed them, for all we know, but let's assume they're just unconscious) just for looking at him is pretty much the same as Luke choking the two Gammoreans who just stand in his way (and again I'm going to assume that he just choked them into unconsciousness, he didn't necessarily have to have killed them).

 

I think if one action is excusable, so is the other. And Yoda throwing a bolt of "Sith Lightning" at Dooku (whether people want to say he "merely redirected the energy of Dooku's attack against him" or that he absorbed the energy and generated his own lightning bolt it doesn't matter really) is excusable too.

 

I think the video game/RPG notion is that there are a set of powers that anybody can use, and another set of powers that if you use them, you're either a Dark Sider or about to become one. The reason they do this in games is to keep the good guys and bad guys different, to make them unique and balance them off of each other for gameplay concerns. Some of the games do away with this duality and just limit you in other ways. The movies never make any connection to certain powers being evil or good, or tainting or whatever.

 

Why don't they just say to characters: "Oh, you want to avoid the Dark Side? Then don't throw electricity, don't choke people, don't shove them into walls, don't throw your lightsaber like a boomerang, don't hurl objects around the room, etc" That would be a lot easier than making general vague references to anger or fear, I would think! So from the point of view of the movies, I don't think it's that simple.

 

 

It could simply be that Lucas uses "Sith Lightning" (was it ever called that before Episode II came out?) as a kind of short hand, just like he calls lightsabers "Laser swords" and Imperial officers "Nazis." The guy uses slang and short hand for things that most fans are too geeky to use for fear of embarrassment, and he mispronounces words he himself made up (or that he approved). Is Lucas just not taking his own material very seriously, or what?

[Prime]

And Yoda throwing a bolt of "Sith Lightning" at Dooku (whether people want to say he "merely redirected the energy of Dooku's attack against him" or that he absorbed the energy and generated his own lightning bolt it doesn't matter really) is excusable too.

You are right, it doesn't matter what people say, only what g-canon says. And it says Yoda deflected the lightning.

[Daft Adidas]

Ur right Lucas does that alot. Strange!