The True Sith Does Not Exist...

[Ztalker]

Originally Posted by Jediphile

4. The true Sith are waiting in the ancient Sith Empire.

 

Could this be one of their armies, frozen until needed? Or frozen because the Exile and Revan bested them?

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Carbonite_Sith_Army

 

This holocron, including a Star Map led a Nightsisiter to it.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Carbonite_Sith_Army_holocron

 

Any thoughts?

[Hipmonlee]

Take a closer look at Kreia's quote. She says the exile must go where Revan did - into the unknown regions to fight the true Sith. Then she immediately mentions the Sith Empire. What's the point of that?

 

Let's look at the full quote:

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

1. The true Sith wait in the unknown regions.

2. Revan went there to fight them.

3. Revan came to Malachor because it - like Korriban - lies on the fringes of the old Sith Empire.

 

 

Sure. No disagreement here.

 

4. The true Sith are waiting in the ancient Sith Empire.

 

This i don't agree with. Like i said before, the Unknown Regions are nowhere near the ancient Sith territory. I don't see how they can link the 2 without messing up something, or without making up a weird connection. Together with the devs' statements, it seems to indicate me that they're not part of the same group.

 

Btw, i seem to recall a loading screen at Malachor V that said that the academy was built "tens of thousands of years ago". If that was the case, then it'd be quite obvious that the 2 (true and ancient sith) aren't the same.

[Jediphile]

This i don't agree with. Like i said before, the Unknown Regions are nowhere near the ancient Sith territory.

 

And what is your basis for that claim?

 

Because it certainly seems to me that mentioning the Sith Empire - and there has been only one at this point - more than infers that that is what is being suggested here.

 

Why mention the Sith Empire if it has nothing to do with the ancient Sith?!?

 

I don't see how they can link the 2 without messing up something, or without making up a weird connection. Together with the devs' statements, it seems to indicate me that they're not part of the same group.

 

That they are mentioned together is the link. To do that and then say they are not the same would seem like a weird connection to me. As it is, it hangs well together IMHO.

 

Btw, i seem to recall a loading screen at Malachor V that said that the academy was built "tens of thousands of years ago". If that was the case, then it'd be quite obvious that the 2 (true and ancient sith) aren't the same.

 

It is true that this figure is mentioned, but then that just begs the question of why Korriban and Malachor are mentioned in relation to the Sith Empire so frequently toward the end of the game. I've always taken that as possible typo, because it just doesn't fit with what we know of the Sith and their history. For example, while that figure is mentioned, Sion merely says that the Trayus academy has been there for thousands of years...

 

What's the point of talking so much about the "ancient Sith Empire" and how Malachor and Korriban lies on the fringes of its borders and how it called to Revan, if it has nothing to do with the true Sith?!?

[Hipmonlee]

And what is your basis for that claim?

 

http://www.xs4all.nl/~wrvh/galaxymap/galaxymap_p1.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1713/galaxy2ak3.jpg

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/8701/factfiles139xb6.jpg

 

1st map shows clearly the distance between both areas. Map 2 and 3 are from official sources (NEC and Clone Wars) to confirm its accuracy.

 

 

Because it certainly seems to me that mentioning the Sith Empire - and there has been only one at this point - more than infers that that is what is being suggested here.

 

Why mention the Sith Empire if it has nothing to do with the ancient Sith?!?

 

Well, the claims aren't exactly determining. Like i said before, they are ambiguous to some point, and it can be argued that it wasn't the Ancient Sith empire they were referring to.

 

It is true that this figure is mentioned, but then that just begs the question of why Korriban and Malachor are mentioned in relation to the Sith Empire so frequently toward the end of the game

 

Korriban is related to whatever Sith you may be talking about because that's were the Sith came from. So, whatever Sith group you make up, Korriban will be connected to them. Now, as for Malachor, that's a whole different story, and again, nothing we know about it tells us that it was related to the Ancient Sith empire. On the contrary, it was author's intention to be placed next to the Unknown Regions, ie: far from the Old Sith territory:

 

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1724/kotor2col6.jpg

 

This is taken from K2. While it contains some discrepances, it's quite clear that the devs wanted to place Malachor in the UR. I don't see how they can be connected to the Old Sith whatsoever.

 

What's the point of talking so much about the "ancient Sith Empire"

 

But again, it can be argued that they talked about "an" ancient Sith empire, not "the".

[adamqd]

The Map shown seems to depict the unknown regions as a pocket of space west of the core, but to my knowledge it is anywhere that isn't properly charted, and the list of planets in this link seems to show that...

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unknown_Regions#Planets

 

Korriban is not on the list, but, all maps and lists available are compiled as of the most resent in-universe history... I'm pretty sure the Galactic Map would be a lot less traveled in 4000 bby

[Hipmonlee]

The Map shown seems to depict the unknown regions as a pocket of space west of the core, but to my knowledge it is anywhere that isn't properly charted, and the list of planets in this link seems to show that...

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unknown_Regions#Planets

 

Korriban is not on the list, but, all maps and lists available are compiled as of the most resent in-universe history... I'm pretty sure the Galactic Map would be a lot less traveled in 4000 bby

 

While your definition is correct, I don't think it can be applied to the Old Sith space, for some reasons:

 

- We know for a fact that the Daragon trail was established prior to K2, and it leads to Korriban.

- We know for a fact that the Republic cleansed Ziost and other Sith worlds at the end of the great Hyperspace war (prior to K2). Empress Teta's forces also arrived at other planets. You also have to keep in mind that Kreia herself mentioned that the Republic arrived at Korriban after the Jedi civil war only to find it desolated.

 

So, the Old sith space doesn't sound "unknown" to me, not even at the time of K2. The republic has been there before, unlike the Unknown Regions.

 

Also, what about Malachor? Why was it suspiciously placed near the UR, both by K2 and by the New essential guide to planets (forgot to mention this in my earlier post), and not near Old Sith space?

[Jediphile]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~wrvh/galaxymap/galaxymap_p1.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1713/galaxy2ak3.jpg

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/8701/factfiles139xb6.jpg

 

1st map shows clearly the distance between both areas. Map 2 and 3 are from official sources (NEC and Clone Wars) to confirm its accuracy.

 

The obvious problem with those maps is that they are about 4000 years late. I would venture the guess that more of the galaxy would have been explored after 4000 years and that a lesser part of the galaxy would therefore be considered "the unknown regions". And vice versa - meaning that the "unknown regions" in the time of the KotOR games (about 3951 BBY) would be much larger. The first map even has the "Imperial Remnant" on it, which means it's at least year 5 ABY or so.

 

PS: Nice maps, though. Thanks for the links.

 

Well, the claims aren't exactly determining. Like i said before, they are ambiguous to some point, and it can be argued that it wasn't the Ancient Sith empire they were referring to.

 

Then what was referred to, and why was the Sith Empire mentioned, thereby confusing the issue? I'd assume that Kreia actually did intend for the exile to find Revan rather than get confused and search the wrong part of the galaxy...

 

Korriban is related to whatever Sith you may be talking about because that's were the Sith came from. So, whatever Sith group you make up, Korriban will be connected to them. Now, as for Malachor, that's a whole different story, and again, nothing we know about it tells us that it was related to the Ancient Sith empire. On the contrary, it was author's intention to be placed next to the Unknown Regions, ie: far from the Old Sith territory:

 

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1724/kotor2col6.jpg

 

This is taken from K2. While it contains some discrepances, it's quite clear that the devs wanted to place Malachor in the UR. I don't see how they can be connected to the Old Sith whatsoever.

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark.

 

Besides, the less said of consistence between various maps and the accuracy of maps in the KotOR games the better. Just look for Hoth on your own, first map - http://www.xs4all.nl/~wrvh/galaxymap/galaxymap_p1.jpg - it's to the far left in the box named "XII" next to Bespin and Anoat (obviously). Then look where Hoth is on this map - http://img56.photobucket.com/albums/v170/tk102/0c4857f1.jpg - which is from one of the games (not sure which) at an early stage of development (since it was obviously cut and appears in neither game). It appears nowhere close to where it is on the first map. Not sure if that's inaccuracy or inconsistency, but it certainly raises doubt, and it took me less than a minute find that map...

 

But again, it can be argued that they talked about "an" ancient Sith empire, not "the".

 

No. There is only one established Sith Empire at this point in history, not counting Revan's, which was never fully established. That's why Wookieepedia has only one entry for "Sith Empire": http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire

 

Establishing another, older Sith Empire could be done through severe (and IMHO very unelegant) retconning, but even then, that in no way explains why the Sith Empire of Ragnos and Sadow was mentioned in relation to the true Sith.

[Hipmonlee]

The obvious problem with those maps is that they are about 4000 years late. I would venture the guess that more of the galaxy would have been explored after 4000 years and that a lesser part of the galaxy would therefore be considered "the unknown regions". And vice versa - meaning that the "unknown regions" in the time of the KotOR games (about 3951 BBY) would be much larger. The first map even has the "Imperial Remnant" on it, which means it's at least year 5 ABY or so

 

Sure, you can argue that the Unknown regions were bigger at that time. What you can't argue, imo, is that the Old Sith space belonged to the older "Unknown regions". The republic visited Korriban more than once and cleansed several Sith worlds. The ancient sith empire is everything but "unknown".

 

Then what was referred to, and why was the Sith Empire mentioned, thereby confusing the issue? I'd assume that Kreia actually did intend for the exile to find Revan rather than get confused and search the wrong part of the galaxy

 

She was referring to some place beyond Malachor, imo. Malachor, as seen by the K2 map, borders the UR. Imo, she seemed to be suggesting that the exile should go "beyond" there.

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark.

 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. What we know about Malachor (both from the game and from the NEGP) tells us that it isn't part of the Old Sith empire as we know it.

 

stablishing another, older Sith Empire could be done through severe (and IMHO very unelegant) retconning

 

Well, the devs were aiming for that, so I'm not sure either of us can anticipate whether it'd be unelegant or not.

 

that in no way explains why the Sith Empire of Ragnos and Sadow was mentioned in relation to the true Sith

 

Perhaps there is indeed a connection between the two. What I fail to see is how exactly they can be both the same.

[Tysyacha]

I'll say it for you so you won't have to: "Go away, Tysyacha!"

 

That said, the idea in my "Keeping the Galaxy Intact" story is that Bastila Shan has fallen to the Dark Side again in the guise of the Light. She intends to rid the galaxy of all evil, but doing so requires the elimination of choice and freedom to do such evil.

 

Thus, Revan, Exile, et al. ARE the True Sith in Bastila's eyes, since they wish to defeat her. That made no sense--now back to our regular scheduled program/discussion!

 

P.S. Silent Scope--can I use your idea for my next fanfic/roleplay? Your idea RULES!

[Jediphile]

Sure, you can argue that the Unknown regions were bigger at that time. What you can't argue, imo, is that the Old Sith space belonged to the older "Unknown regions". The republic visited Korriban more than once and cleansed several Sith worlds. The ancient sith empire is everything but "unknown".

 

The fact that the Republic knew little or nothing of Malachor belonging to the Sith Empire would seem to suggest otherwise - had they known, it seems pretty clear to me that Revan might have suspected the danger and not gone there (or at least taken precautions).

 

Obviously Korriban is known, yes, since that is where the Republic followed Naga Sadow to and ended the Great Hyperspace War, bringing about the fall of the Sith Empire. But is there any evidence of the Republic in the KotOR era knowing of Sith Empire worlds such as Ch'hodos, Rhelg, Khar Delba (and Khar Shian), Thule, or Ziost? Don't think so... And those are some of the more major ones.

 

She was referring to some place beyond Malachor, imo. Malachor, as seen by the K2 map, borders the UR. Imo, she seemed to be suggesting that the exile should go "beyond" there.

 

That argument does not seem to me to fit well with the maps you based your argument earlier.

 

And would I be correct to assume you've abandoned the map argument after the maps conflicted on Hoth's position? Because it seemed to me that your argument that Old Sith space did not belong to the older "unknown regions" was based on that assumption...

 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. What we know about Malachor (both from the game and from the NEGP) tells us that it isn't part of the Old Sith empire as we know it.

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark.

 

I do believe my point is self-evident from that quote...

 

Well, the devs were aiming for that, so I'm not sure either of us can anticipate whether it'd be unelegant or not.

 

I can tell whether I think it's elegant or not, which is what I did. Retconning is generally not what I would consider elegant. It can be necessary at times, but should only be a last resort, because you're basically rewriting history, which is always a no-no. And it doesn't even seem necessary here...

 

Sure, the devs may have considered some ancient uber-sith, but they still mentioned the Sith Empire in the game in relation to the true Sith. They also considered having Nihilus' mask being made of Revan's skull at a time. Are we to accept that as fact because it was considered at one point during development, even though Kreia tells the exile to go and find Revan in the end, thereby suggesting he is still alive?

 

Perhaps there is indeed a connection between the two. What I fail to see is how exactly they can be both the same.

 

There we agree. Or at least, we would if this ancient uber-sith society could be established. Sure, the Sith species had been around for a long time before the dark jedi found them, but there is still no evidence I've ever seen that they were ever some uber-powerful Sith-species empire beyond fanboy speculation. After all, it is not actually stated in the game, is it? I mean, we still haven't found the evidence that proves despite looking for it, have we?

[Hipmonlee]

The fact that the Republic knew little or nothing of Malachor belonging to the Sith Empire would seem to suggest otherwise - had they known, it seems pretty clear to me that Revan might have suspected the danger and not gone there (or at least taken precautions).

 

Because Malachor is far from Old Sith space. At the risk of repeating myself:

 

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1724/kotor2col6.jpg

 

This clearly shows that Malachor was intended to be in the Unknown Regions (I mean the ones depicted in the canon sources). Plus, The new chronology mentions that Malachor is "only a few parsecs from Lehon", which further proves that Malachor was not a part of the Old Sith empire.

 

But is there any evidence of the Republic in the KotOR era knowing of Sith Empire worlds such as Ch'hodos, Rhelg, Khar Delba (and Khar Shian), Thule, or Ziost?

 

Yes. Ziost was cleansed by the Republic after the Hyperspace war, as was Korriz. Yavin IV was later attacked in the Great Sith war, as was Ashas Ree (all from the NEC). Those are 2 capital worlds and other important planets, plus, the Old Sith empire wasn't exactly that extended. Imo, it can't be categorized into the "unknown regions".

 

That argument does not seem to me to fit well with the maps you based your argument earlier.

 

And would I be correct to assume you've abandoned the map argument after the maps conflicted on Hoth's position? Because it seemed to me that your argument that Old Sith space did not belong to the older "unknown regions" was based on that assumption...

 

What do you mean? Malachor borders the UR (per the NEC and the K2 map). Once the Exile beat Kreia, she told her to go further deep into the Unknown regions. I'm not sure what you mean by "Hoth's position" either.

 

I can tell whether I think it's elegant or not, which is what I did. Retconning is generally not what I would consider elegant. It can be necessary at times, but should only be a last resort, because you're basically rewriting history, which is always a no-no. And it doesn't even seem necessary here...

 

Fair enough, I see your point. What I meant was more of that, since they had a K3 storyline in mind (at least, afaik), they could be trusted in retconning this stuff without much problem.

 

Sure, the devs may have considered some ancient uber-sith, but they still mentioned the Sith Empire in the game in relation to the true Sith. They also considered having Nihilus' mask being made of Revan's skull at a time. Are we to accept that as fact because it was considered at one point during development, even though Kreia tells the exile to go and find Revan in the end, thereby suggesting he is still alive?

 

I'd argue it's different. The whole Nihilus' mask matter is something we know they completely dropped. However, when asked, the devs firmly stated that their intentions with the true Sith was to make a separate group (I'm sorry I can't provide a link to this one - This was from 2005 or so). They never mentioned it was an idea they wouldn't be using in the future...

 

but there is still no evidence I've ever seen that they were ever some uber-powerful Sith-species empire beyond fanboy speculation. After all, it is not actually stated in the game, is it? I mean, we still haven't found the evidence that proves despite looking for it, have we?

 

Yeah, I agree. I'm not arguing that there is another Uber Sith out there either. I'm just saying that whatever these true Sith are, they can't be the Old Sith (They can be related, though).

[Jediphile]

Because Malachor is far from Old Sith space. At the risk of repeating myself:

 

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1724/kotor2col6.jpg

 

This clearly shows that Malachor was intended to be in the Unknown Regions (I mean the ones depicted in the canon sources). Plus, The new essential guide to planets mentions that Malachor is "only a few parsecs from Lehon", which further proves that Malachor was not a part of the Old Sith empire.

 

And at the risk of repeating Kreia...

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

She actually states it in the game.

 

I have looked at your maps. I don't understand why you can't bring yourself to look at the one I provided, which casts doubts on the accuracy of the maps in the KotOR games.

 

And that map is still off by about 4000 years, which I do believe could be significant.

 

Yes. Ziost was cleansed by the Republic after the Hyperspace war, as was Korriz.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ziost

 

It says it was cleansed. I have yet to see when this cleansing took place. It could basically be any time between the end of the Great Hyperspace War and, presumably, the Battle of Ruusan, where Ziost was largely forgotten. But that's a pretty long time...

 

Indeed, it could just as well be speculated that Ziost is the intended central homeworld of the true Sith in KotOR3, and that this cleaning is to take place at the end of the game.

 

Yavin IV was later attacked in the Great Sith war, as was Ashas Ree (all from the NEC). Those are 2 capital worlds and other important planets

 

Yavin IV is not part of the Sith Empire - that's why Naga Sadow could flee there and hide after the Great Hyperspace War, when he was exiled from the Sith Empire and hunted by the Republic.

 

What do you mean? Malachor borders the UR (per the NEGP and the K2 map). Once the Exile beat Kreia, she told her to go further deep into the Unknown regions. I'm not sure what you mean by "Hoth's position" either.

 

Because the map I linked to puts Hoth in a different part of the galaxy than the map you linked to, which casts doubt on the accuracy of the maps in the KotOR games or else just on the consistency in the maps made of the Star Wars galaxy in general.

 

Fair enough, I see your point. What I meant was more of that, since they had a K3 storyline in mind (at least, afaik), they could be trusted in retconning this stuff without much problem.

 

Retconning the entire established origin of the Sith is not much of a problem?

 

I'd argue it's different. The whole Nihilus' mask matter is something we know they completely dropped. However, when asked, the devs firmly stated that their intentions with the true Sith was to make a separate group (I'm sorry I can't provide a link to this one - This was from 2005 or so). They never mentioned it was an idea they wouldn't be using in the future...

 

Nor did they mention that they would, and the fact your only source is a statement way back from 2005 could be taken to mean that they dropped the idea. Besides, if that was the case, why don't they establish this in the game instead of mentioning the Sith Empire?

 

Yeah, I agree. I'm not arguing that there is another Uber Sith out there either. I'm just saying that whatever these true Sith are, they can't be the Old Sith (They can be related, though).

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

[Hipmonlee]

And at the risk of repeating Kreia...

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

She actually states it in the game.

 

I have looked at your maps. I don't understand why you can't bring yourself to look at the one I provided, which casts doubts on the accuracy of the maps in the KotOR games.

 

And that map is still off by about 4000 years, which I do believe could be significant.

 

My apologies, I didn't notice that part of your post.

 

Anyway, I'm not claiming that the map I posted is 100% correct. However, it gives a very clear idea of how separated the Unknown Regions are from the Old Sith space. The other map from K2 (The one which shows Malachor V) further shows that indeed, Malachor belongs in the UR. To top on to that, we have the NEC (post-K2) which retconned Malachor being not far from Lehon, which is indeed in the UR (per K1 and the other maps).

 

I guess that leaves us in a plothole, because Kreia's quote doesn't correlate with canon information about Malachor V. If I could play the "typo card", then I'd do it to correct that Kreia's quote. "Inelegant", I know, but some fixing has to be done in some way or another, imo.

 

It says it was cleansed. I have yet to see when this cleansing took place. It could basically be any time between the end of the Great Hyperspace War and, presumably, the Battle of Ruusan, where Ziost was largely forgotten. But that's a pretty long time...

 

The NEC is quite clear, and mentions that after Empress Teta's victory, the Republic decided not to underestimate the Sith threat, thus, they destroy most life in the planet in fear. I consider it pretty much fact, since I haven't seen a source that contradicts it.

 

Yavin IV is not part of the Sith Empire - that's why Naga Sadow could flee there and hide after the Great Hyperspace War, when he was exiled from the Sith Empire and hunted by the Republic.

 

Good point, though, Yavin IV is indeed in the Old Sith space, so that's more exploring on the Republic side, and less "unknown" for that part of the galaxy.

 

Because the map I linked to puts Hoth in a different part of the galaxy than the map you linked to, which casts doubt on the accuracy of the maps in the KotOR games or else just on the consistency in the maps made of the Star Wars galaxy in general.

 

I think it's more of the second, myself. There is indeed quite a lot of controversy among planet locations, hence why an official Atlas is coming next year...I guess that'd put this dispute to an end.

 

Still, there's no reason to dismiss the more general aspects. While Hoth may indeed be misplaced, the Unknown Regions certainly aren't, which was the basis of my argument.

 

Retconning the entire established origin of the Sith is not much of a problem?

 

I wouldn't know, but like I said, K2 writers had a K3 storyline in mind which could very well mean that they had a way to wrap things up.

 

Nor did they mention that they would, and the fact your only source is a statement way back from 2005 could be taken to mean that they dropped the idea. Besides, if that was the case, why don't they establish this in the game instead of mentioning the Sith Empire?

 

Yeah, I could understand them dropping the idea after seeing K3 being held for so long. But as far as I remember, it didn't sound like they were dropping it.

[Rev7]

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

She actually states it in the game.

 

Hmmm, never heard Kreia say that in the game. Must have missed something.

[Prime]

Establishing another, older Sith Empire could be done through severe (and IMHO very unelegant) retconning

Sadly, this problem is to me the biggest issue that Star Wars EU has...and keeping stuff that should be thrown under the infinities label.

[adamqd]

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

She actually states it in the game.

 

Hmmm, never heard Kreia say that in the game. Must have missed something.

 

watch this... she says it at 5 mins in

[SilentScope001]

P.S. Silent Scope--can I use your idea for my next fanfic/roleplay? Your idea RULES!

 

Sure, just credit me. Maybe I should just the "Open License" for all prospective fanfic wirters.

[Jediphile]

Anyway, I'm not claiming that the map I posted is 100% correct. However, it gives a very clear idea of how separated the Unknown Regions are from the Old Sith space. The other map from K2 (The one which shows Malachor V) further shows that indeed, Malachor belongs in the UR. To top on to that, we have the NEC (post-K2) which retconned Malachor being not far from Lehon, which is indeed in the UR (per K1 and the other maps).

 

Except those maps in the games are more often than not completely inconsistent with the (nice-looking) map that you base your conclusion on. Take a look at where the planets are on the KotOR1 maps, then look at the corresponding planets on the map you linked to. Indeed, NONE of them are in the same place (except Malachor, which does not appear on your map), and actually only Dantooine and Tatooine are anywhere close to where they are on the map you link to. The maps have Kashyyyk on opposite sides of the galaxy, for example. The same is true for Telos. And Korriban is far to the right and a little above the center on your map, while it is far below the center on the map in KotOR1. Lehon/Rakata Prime/Unknown World is, in fact, much closer to the galactic core than any other planet in KotOR1 (except possibly Manaan), and that is below the center to the left, not far above the center, where your map places the unknown regions.

 

That you then take the position of Malachor in TSL and put it straight onto your galactic map without considering the rest of the planets in the game means you're either comparing apples and oranges or that you're looking only at what supports your own theory, while ignoring anything else in the same source that speaks against it.

 

You cannot claim consistency, when the maps you refer to are in utter conflict about essentially all the other worlds. Indeed, there is probably no conflict for Malachor simply because only TSL actually puts it on a map.

 

I'm not going to bother loading up all the maps to prove this, since it's beyond easy for all of us to load up the game and check for ourselves that this is so. So I'm hoping that will not be necessary.

 

I guess that leaves us in a plothole, because Kreia's quote doesn't correlate with canon information about Malachor V. If I could play the "typo card", then I'd do it to correct that Kreia's quote. "Inelegant", I know, but some fixing has to be done in some way or another, imo.

 

What other canon information? What Kreia says in TSL is THE definite canon source on Malachor. She says what she says because the devs wrote and LA approved it. Naturally, it is subject to later retconning, but to suggest that Kreia's quote is somehow not canon is akin to saying that Plagueis being Sidious master in Episode III does not correllate to canon information. Well, Ep.3 IS the canon information about Plagueis (until LA decides to retcon it...).

 

Kreia is wrong because it says otherwise where?

 

When I mentioned an assumed typo, it was because there was conflicting information about the same detail in the same source (TSL), where the circumstantial evidence seemed to point to one. I therefore dismissed the other. I have yet to see any information that contradicts Kreia on this (apart from fanboy speculation).

 

The NEC is quite clear, and mentions that after Empress Teta's victory, the Republic decided not to underestimate the Sith threat, thus, they destroy most life in the planet in fear. I consider it pretty much fact, since I haven't seen a source that contradicts it.

 

Maybe so. I haven't seen the NEC, but if that's all it says, then that still doesn't give us a timeline for when this took place. "After Empress Teta's victory" could be an awfully long time.

 

And naturally, it still says nothing about the other Sith worlds. Indeed, if the Republic cleansed them all, then they should have found and cleansed Malachor as well, since it - like Korriban - lies on the fringes of the empire, according to Kreia.

 

Good point, though, Yavin IV is indeed in the Old Sith space, so that's more exploring on the Republic side, and less "unknown" for that part of the galaxy.

 

Your own map doesn't exactly suggest so, and the KotOR1 map puts Yavin on the completely other side of the galaxy from where you place the Sith Empire.

 

I think it's more of the second, myself. There is indeed quite a lot of controversy among planet locations, hence why an official Atlas is coming next year...I guess that'd put this dispute to an end.

 

Still, there's no reason to dismiss the more general aspects. While Hoth may indeed be misplaced, the Unknown Regions certainly aren't, which was the basis of my argument.

 

Well, the only other planet - Lehon/Rakata Prime in KotOR1 - does not support your thesis. In fact, the maps are utterly in conflict about all the planets that appear on both. That Malachor is the only one (that was not cut from either game) that does not appear on both maps might be the reason why you missed that detail.

 

Yeah, I could understand them dropping the idea after seeing K3 being held for so long. But as far as I remember, it didn't sound like they were dropping it.

 

That still presumes that they intended such an uber-race, when they wrote the game. Since they refer to the Sith Empire in the plot, I would not think so.

[Jvstice]

There's already one other race descended from the true sith walking around Exar Khun's time, and one of their members gets put in suspended animation to live until Luke/Leia/Han's time. The Massassi.

 

Who's to say that there aren't other descendents of the empire that are both genetically and idealistically related to the first Sith Empire? It's not a stretch.

[adamqd]

^^^

That wouldn't be a problem as the Massassi you mention were the personal Guard of Naga Sadow, and that is the Empire I want to Retain as the True Sith... If they create some offshoot or different sith Empire that pre-dates currant canon... that would be crap IMO

 

Obviously the sith as a species evolved long before written history, But the sith as enemies of the Jedi, Darkside Force users, Began when the Exiled Jedi settled and interbred with the sith species. I see no reason to create another Empire

[Hipmonlee]

Except those maps in the games are more often than not completely inconsistent with the (nice-looking) map that you base your conclusion on. Take a look at where the planets are on the KotOR1 maps, then look at the corresponding planets on the map you linked to. Indeed, NONE of them are in the same place (except Malachor, which does not appear on your map), and actually only Dantooine and Tatooine are anywhere close to where they are on the map you link to. The maps have Kashyyyk on opposite sides of the galaxy, for example. The same is true for Telos. And Korriban is far to the right and a little above the center on your map, while it is far below the center on the map in KotOR1.

 

But I'm not basing anything on those planets locations. The Unknown Regions, for example, are at the same place, whatever the source you use, and yes,

that's been consistent all the way.

 

And I don't see what's the problem. The NEC was precisely made to retcon those locations. The map I gave you is based precisely on the NEC, and it's quite clear. K1 maps, for example, misplaced everything. And even if we considered K1 maps cannon, the issue remains that Korriban (and the other sith worlds) are on the opposite side of the galaxy.

 

That you then take the position of Malachor in TSL and put it straight onto your galactic map without considering the rest of the planets in the game means you're either comparing apples and oranges or that you're looking only at what supports your own theory, while ignoring anything else in the same source that speaks against it.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound that way. The point is that I'm basing Malachor's location textually. K2 map was simply posted to show author's intention.

 

Indeed, there is probably no conflict for Malachor simply because only TSL actually puts it on a map

 

It was textually mentioned to be bordering the Unknown Regions as well.

 

Kreia is wrong because it says otherwise where?

 

"Coming from their homeworld at the Unknown Regions, the Rakata were the first species to produce a stable hyperdrive (...) By transporting these slave species to new worlds, the Rakata were believed to have inadvertently seeded swaths of the galaxy with sentient life in the known galaxy and the Unknown Regions"

 

"Just like the taboo-Mandalorian planet, Malachor V, which belongs to the Malachor system, nearby other worlds that would be instrumental to the destiny of the galaxy, like the homeworld of the Rakata, and the Chiss' ascendancy (...)".

 

The New essential chronology, October 2005 (post K2)

 

It's pretty clear that Malachor is next to the UR. Thus, it's highly unlikely that it belonged to the Old Sith empire, which explains why it wasn't cleansed by the Republic.

 

"After Empress Teta's victory" could be an awfully long time.

 

Not really, it says it happened after the pursuit. It's also placed chronologically before Nadd's uprise.

 

then they should have found and cleansed Malachor as well, since it - like Korriban - lies on the fringes of the empire, according to Kreia.

 

But it was placed on the other side of the galaxy by a most recent (canon) source...

 

The line "lies on the fringes of the empire" could be seen metaphorically, because even in K2 maps, the locations of Malachor and Korriban differ by a LONG shot.

 

Your own map doesn't exactly suggest so

 

What do you mean? Yavin is inmediately close to Korriban. That means Yavin IV could presumably be closer.

 

Well, the only other planet - Lehon/Rakata Prime in KotOR1 - does not support your thesis.

 

uh?

 

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/7530/kotor1tc5.jpg

 

That's K1 map, and if my memory serves me well, the world on the top left corner is Lehon, which is clearly in the Unknown Regions, just like Malachor is in the Unknown Regions, and just like Korriban (in both games) is depicted on the other side of the galaxy.

 

That still presumes that they intended such an uber-race

 

It doesn't. All they said is that the True Sith don't have to be the descendants of the Old Sith empire.

[Jediphile]

But I'm not basing anything on those planets locations. The Unknown Regions, for example, are at the same place, whatever the source you use, and yes, that's been consistent all the way.

 

Yet you pointed to the TSL-map as your basis for where Malachor would be.

 

Korriban is related to whatever Sith you may be talking about because that's were the Sith came from. So, whatever Sith group you make up, Korriban will be connected to them. Now, as for Malachor, that's a whole different story, and again, nothing we know about it tells us that it was related to the Ancient Sith empire. On the contrary, it was author's intention to be placed next to the Unknown Regions, ie: far from the Old Sith territory:

 

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1724/kotor2col6.jpg

 

This is taken from K2. While it contains some discrepances, it's quite clear that the devs wanted to place Malachor in the UR. I don't see how they can be connected to the Old Sith whatsoever.

 

Having said this, you cannot now say that you're not basing your assumption on those planets locations. It is precisely what you did here.

 

And I don't see what's the problem. The NEC was precisely made to retcon those locations. The map I gave you is based precisely on the NEC, and it's quite clear. K1 maps, for example, misplaced everything. And even if we considered K1 maps cannon, the issue remains that Korriban (and the other sith worlds) are on the opposite side of the galaxy.

 

Which is why I question the maps as a basis. They are completely inaccurate. Yet you still pointed to the TSL map as your basis for Malachor V being in the unknown regions as stated on the greater map, whereas I look at what is established by comments in the game.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound that way. The point is that I'm basing Malachor's location textually. K2 map was simply posted to show author's intention.

 

The TSL map is the only basis you've given for claiming Malachor is where you claim it is. Indeed, looking at the text, it is quite obvious that Kreia says both Korriban and Malachor are on the fringes of the Sith Empire, which I have already quoted several times.

 

It was textually mentioned to be bordering the Unknown Regions as well.

 

Obviously, because that's where the Sith Empire is. You pointed to the map as the basis for claiming the Sith Empire was nowhere near the unknown regions. Well, it isn't by the map, which is still off by 4000 years, but looking at what's established by what is said in the game, there is no basis for claiming the Sith Empire is not in the unknown regions. Quite the contrary.

 

"Coming from their homeworld at the Unknown Regions, the Rakata were the first species to produce a stable hyperdrive (...) By transporting these slave species to new worlds, the Rakata were believed to have inadvertently seeded swaths of the galaxy with sentient life in the known galaxy and the Unknown Regions"

 

"Just like the taboo-Mandalorian planet, Malachor V, which belongs to the Malachor system, nearby other worlds that would be instrumental to the destiny of the galaxy, like the homeworld of the Rakata, and the Chiss' ascendancy (...)".

 

The New essential chronology, October 2005 (post K2)

 

It's pretty clear that Malachor is next to the UR. Thus, it's highly unlikely that it belonged to the Old Sith empire, which explains why it wasn't cleansed by the Republic.

 

I don't see how that proves your position or disproves mine in any way. I have no problem with putting both Lehon as well as Malachor and the rest of the Sith Empire in the unknown regions, and this quote does not disprove that, nor does it conflict with what Kreia tells us.

 

But it was placed on the other side of the galaxy by a most recent (canon) source...

 

The line "lies on the fringes of the empire" could be seen metaphorically, because even in K2 maps, the locations of Malachor and Korriban differ by a LONG shot.

 

They do, which is why I go by what the comments in the game establish. And your canon source has yet to place those planets at opposite positions, since your quote does not separate Malachor from the core worlds of the Sith Empire. Even if it did, it's still arguable, since we don't know just how large the Sith Empire really was in its time. We know a handfull of worlds that belonged to it, but I know of no source that takes pains to list them all...

 

And judging from clues in TSL, there is another problem with taking Malachor away from the Sith Empire, which deals with Onderon.

 

There are several clues in TSL which suggest that Onderon would be important during the coming struggle with the true Sith, and that Revan was aware of this.

 

GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force."

 

Disciple: "Onderon, strangely enough, was unaffected by the Jedi Civil War. It's almost as if Revan didn't want to attack it.Its position and resources on the Rim make it a vital supply line and a guardpost against Outer Rim attacks."

 

Kavar: "So the Council decided that we must not present ourselves as a target again. The consequences to others was just too great, that we should use our resources to find who was responsible and deal with them.I think you're the only one who's made progress.I know that all too well. I came here to find them, to trace them to their source. The war on Dxun and Onderon - I had thought that perhaps the tragedies that occurred here were concealing them.They wanted to aid General Vaklu in breaking away from the Republic. If Onderon became independent, this place would be an excellent staging ground for them.But I fear it was more than that, that the consequences of Onderon's fall would have greater implications for the galaxy."

 

Atton: "I don't like it - Onderon is about as far from the Core as you can get and still be in the Republic."

 

This all speaks of Onderon's position, suggesting that Revan did not attack it because he knew he would later need as an important post in the subsequent fight against the true Sith. At least, that was always my interpretation, and much of TSL leads straight up to that with the true Sith revealed as the coming threat at the end. Yet on the map you refer to - http://www.xs4all.nl/~wrvh/galaxymap/galaxymap_p1.jpg - Onderon is a complete non-factor against a strike from Lehon or a place close to it. It's on the wrong side of the galaxy for that. It's placed pretty well as a defensive position against the worlds of the Sith Empire, however...

 

What do you mean? Yavin is inmediately close to Korriban. That means Yavin IV could presumably be closer.

 

Huh? Obviously Yavin IV is in the Yavin system. And, as before, we're again faced with very conflicting maps. The map you seem to prefer places Yavin far from the Republic, fairly close to Korriban and Thule, whereas KotOR1 places at opposite sides of the galaxy.

 

The map you seem to prefer places Yavin right on the path between the Republic and the Sith Empire. Not a clever place for Sadow to hide, given that he was hunted by both - it would completely undermine the reasons why he hid there after the Great Hyperspace War, since it would have been a fairly obvious place to look for him - a habitable planet with no intelligent life very close to Korriban. Not sure how the Republic missed that one...

 

uh?

 

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/7530/kotor1tc5.jpg

 

That's K1 map, and if my memory serves me well, the world on the top left corner is Lehon, which is clearly in the Unknown Regions, just like Malachor is in the Unknown Regions, and just like Korriban (in both games) is depicted on the other side of the galaxy.[/Quote]

 

I'm afraid not. The planet you refer to, the red one, is Yavin. You have unfortunately chosen a KotOR1 map from a point during the game when the Star Forge system (Lehon/Rakata Prime) has not yet been found. On that map Lehon is just to the left and below the galactic center, almost exactly half-way between Kashyyyk and Korriban.

[Jvstice]

Adam: I don't think they will create a different origin for a new sith empire in K3 other than people descended from the Sith Empire in TOTJ. I can't see anything in canon that would make it seem likely to expect such a thing.

 

Now whether these sith left artifacts and ghosts that are influencing current people, or the real descendents of the sith are actually killing people and making war I think there's some question, but between Canderous' statements that the Sith told the Mandalorians that the republic would make a great challenge for them, Kreia's statements about battling the true Sith, and her refering to herself, Nihilus, Sion, Atris, Revan, Malak, Ulic Quel Droma, and Exar Khun as pale republic immitations of a greater reality seems to indicate that an actual race of Sith holding to Sith/Dark Jedi ideals is the more likely outcome, rather than just fighting the sith teachings.

[adamqd]

Jvstice: True, I was agreeing with you in my other post , the second bit was just my 2 cents, I wasn't trying to tell you anything you didn't already know....

[Jvstice]

Adam: Sorry. Wasn't trying to be pushy either