Uber-Awesome K3 Storyline!

[Jediphile]

"I will not let this republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two," implies that the republic in the movies didn't stand before that. Since the KOTOR timelie is about 4,000 years BBY; based on this observation, it stands to at least reason that this 'old republic' is a different one than in the movies.

 

Yeah, I've heard they "could" be the same and that:

 

1) Oh, george Lucas's bad. He forgot.

--Uhh, no. The games are based around his movies, not the other way around. DUH!

 

2) History became too distorted, because history is all just some mass deception and a big conspiracy.

 

It does establish something about the republic, but what I don't see is how this is relevant to the KotOR games?

 

KotOR is about 4000 years before the movies. The fall of the Sith Empire is about a thousand years before that. That still leaves an awful lot of holes and unknowns in Star Wars history. Over time, I'm sure all the blanks will be filled, though.

 

The happy-go-lucky "have it all" victiory of the LS needs to die...LS should be a bittersweet victory. The storyline should be about this republic becoming corrupt...and diminishing. Remember, the republic of the prequel needs ashes from which to rise. The ashes should be from something before it, no? LS end should entail sort of a "Damn, the republic is dead" sort of thing. Plotting/Decrying that, someday, another republic shall rise!

 

I wasn't sure before, but now, the more I think about it, the more I think this one should have Bane as the main bad guy.

 

What?!? Excuse me, but Bane is a millennia before the movies. What you suggest means that almost 3000 years should just be casually skipped over between TSL and KotOR3. Besides, Darth Bane 's story is already told in the "Jedi vs. Sith" comic books.

 

And, of course, passing over 3000 years means that ANY plot left hanging in TSL is abandoned, because the galaxy doesn't stand still for that long. It definitely means no Revan, no Exile, no Bastila, etc., because clearly they're all dead by then.

 

I agree with you that we don't need an all-happy all-well ending for KotOR3. I don't think we got that in TSL, though. It would be okay if victory takes sacrifice. I could see Canderous be killed in a great war, for example. I admit I don't like him much (since I don't care much for the semi-fascist disposition of the Mandalorians), but he could lead the Mandalorians in an attack of vengeance for being used by the Sith in the past. Seeing characters like T3 or Atton die would also be tragic. Same for the LS Exile.

 

A DS ending, you speed off towards the outer rim, in all your evil glory with the shattered republic behind you, and you never to be seen again. Cackling at the misfortune of your betrayed ex-bretheren jedi.

 

Yes. Albeit that might be a little too close to the DS ending of Jedi Academy, methinks.

 

I'd love to see more of our past friends, Inasmuch it is a pleasure to immortalize the heroes that deserve it (as well as the villains). Howeve, it really should be moving forth. Enough about Revan and The Exile!

I'm sort of sorry that I have to be so abrasive as to smack you all in the face with a steel gauntlet, but I really feel this issue needs addressing.

 

Actually, I'd like to revisit all the companions and major characters from the previous games (that are alive, of course). The fates of Revan and exile should be settled in KotOR3. Not necessarily meaning that they should do, but their problems should be resolved, I think.

[Henz]

I refuse to comment on the grounds that I'm not a fan of starting in a rebuilt order, but mostly seeing Revan and Exile again (they're like, so last year(s)).

[SilentScope001]

1) Oh, george Lucas's bad. He forgot.

--Uhh, no. The games are based around his movies, not the other way around. DUH!

 

...Uh, no. George Lucas forgets. He doesn't read the EU.

 

After George Lucas made that big boo-boo mistake, saying the Republic lasted for 1000 years, the EU made a retcon, creating the whole Russan Reformation, having the Republic be reformed 1000 years ago. They admitted it as such.

 

I have to go and do homework, but I will reply to your posts, Jediphile, and read your story, but I think I would like to list some greviences:

 

1. Abandoning the Force Subplot, Defeating the Purpose of Kreia's Trials, Creating a Reborn Darth Nihlius That Is Easy to Destroy. (I may accept that, but not by much...)

 

2. Able to Defeat Exile and Revan Easily by Merely Talking to Them. That's just absurd to me...

 

3. Not Having A Main Character that Has ANY Sort of Notable Special Power That Makes Him Unique. It seems stupid of how could some random grunt be able to defeat the Dark Lord of the True Sith. Think about it, this is some AVERAGE Jedi. Why not make "Assains of the Old Empire" where you play as a canon-fooder Assassin (maybe Atton, or maybe somebody else) and have the main goal of killing off Exile? You know, playing as those Sith Assasins that get easily slain by you. You make the Exile look weak, and I wonder about replacing the Assaisns.

 

You see, and let me repeat it, your choices do not matter. You are the only one that can stop what is to come, but once it comes, others can intervene. You talk about how Princess Leia will soon get killed, I'll ask how long? 1 year? 10 years? You note that all the coup attempts against Vader were incompenent, and so useless.

 

Oh, and a retcon of that battle had Darth Palpatine using Battle Mediation (I hate that...but yes, that what the retcon says)...So everyone is happy that Vader's murder of Palpatine is actaully useful!

 

And your "books" example, they're books. You don't actually play as any of the characters in those books, and roleplay as them. This is why those writers are able to get away with placing random characters, having them rise in power, and defeat them...because you do get the implication that they may very well be the only one.

 

Batman and McGuvyer have the superpower of high intelligence to allow them to do what they can done. Don't tell me you know how to design a uber-fast car and construct nuclear bombs out of paperclips. Their IQ level acts as such a superpower. I do not know anything about Frodo and Grodo, but I do think maybe there is something else out there that you are missing...

 

Anyway, we play as the characters in games. We play games to have fun...and many people have fun by stroking their ego of the character. (This is why there is Revan fanboyism...people play as Revan and stroke their ego by making Revan strong) If we do not have such a stroking of ego, why bother even playing this game at all?

 

If you are the only one that can stop the True Sith, you have a motivation to continue the crusade...instead of just relying on Revan and Exile to do the dirty work for you. You have your ego stroked, and you know that your life is important. If I don't feel as if my life is important, I do not feel a need to play, since my role can quite easily be replaced by some other random Jedi...and, more importantly, the True Sith are weak.

 

You fail to answer that point well. If anyone, and I mean anyone, can destroy the True Sith, then why did Exile rush in to help Revan? Why did Revan even fell to the DS to counter the True Sith? It sounds absurd that they failed, and yet you succeded...but it sounds more abusrd that they were even worried about the True Sith in the first place, if anyone can destroy it. The True Sith is supposed to be set up to be an awesome evil...so if it can be destroyed by anyone, well, what?

 

I already concluded the True Sith would be annilhated or defeated at the end of the game somehow, but it's the how that matters...or even the If. What if they actually have the True Sith win? That would be quite awesome, upsetting fanboys everywhere. But I know such an ending won't exist, due to the egoism of the players. You cannot make such a game, because I read 1984 for depressing fiction and feeling small, and I play games to have fun and feel important.

 

Actually, I'd like to revisit all the companions and major characters from the previous games (that are alive, of course). The fates of Revan and exile should be settled in KotOR3. Not necessarily meaning that they should do, but their problems should be resolved, I think.

 

I don't. Why bring back them? Their story is told. Everything that should be told must be told for the sake of the plot. I want total focus on the True Sith, and not on the other characters.

[Jediphile]

1. Abandoning the Force Subplot, Defeating the Purpose of Kreia's Trials, Creating a Reborn Darth Nihlius That Is Easy to Destroy. (I may accept that, but not by much...)

 

Well, given that you've already said you like that subplot, this is obvious. However, it does not have priority in the greater plot of the games, and TSL in no way makes the Exile embrace Kreia's ideals, so while you may like for the Exile do that, there is no reason why any other player should want the Exile to do so.

 

Or to use your own words, "And just because you may personally think it is a good plot, if other people do not, and if most people do not, then maybe it really isn't a good plot, is it?"

 

2. Able to Defeat Exile and Revan Easily by Merely Talking to Them. That's just absurd to me...

 

I have neither suggested nor implied that, so please refrain from putting words in my mouth. All I said is that redeeming Revan and Exile through conversation would be possible if they were LS in the previous games. That cannot be taken to imply "defeat." Besides, I already said that if they were DS in the past, then they cannot be redeemed and must be killed. And obviously, if the new protagonist is DS, then they are both in his way on the rise to power and must be killed, in which case they deserve the same fate as all sith lords - betrayal and a knife in the back... Just as Sidious did to Plagueis.

 

3. Not Having A Main Character that Has ANY Sort of Notable Special Power That Makes Him Unique. It seems stupid of how could some random grunt be able to defeat the Dark Lord of the True Sith. Think about it, this is some AVERAGE Jedi. Why not make "Assains of the Old Empire" where you play as a canon-fooder Assassin (maybe Atton, or maybe somebody else) and have the main goal of killing off Exile? You know, playing as those Sith Assasins that get easily slain by you. You make the Exile look weak, and I wonder about replacing the Assaisns.

 

James T. Kirk was killed by falling from a bridge. King Theoden was killed when his horse fell on him. Saruman was killed by his own henchman stabbing him in the back. And, of course, we should not forget that most of the uber-powerful jedi masters in RotS were killed by their own clonetrooper "grunts". You could claim they were not ordinary people, but they were no match next to a full jedi master.

 

You see, and let me repeat it, your choices do not matter. You are the only one that can stop what is to come, but once it comes, others can intervene. You talk about how Princess Leia will soon get killed, I'll ask how long? 1 year? 10 years? You note that all the coup attempts against Vader were incompenent, and so useless.

 

So a coup must succeed for it to be competent? I disagree completely. Admiral Zaarin very nearly killed the emperor with his treachery. Just because it did not succeed does not mean that it not present a genuine threat.

 

Oh, and a retcon of that battle had Darth Palpatine using Battle Mediation (I hate that...but yes, that what the retcon says)...So everyone is happy that Vader's murder of Palpatine is actaully useful!

 

The problem with that is that the original trilogy was all done for more than a decade before anyone ever thought of battle meditation. And then it was only for Nomi Sunrider. It is also notable that not even the new movie trilogy demonstrate Palpatine's purported battle meditation in any way, nor does any of the other Star Wars material that I've ever seen or read.

 

And your "books" example, they're books. You don't actually play as any of the characters in those books, and roleplay as them. This is why those writers are able to get away with placing random characters, having them rise in power, and defeat them...because you do get the implication that they may very well be the only one.

 

Oh, please. As plot-driven as the KotOR games are, it is absurd to suggest a major difference between protagonists in computer games and protagonists in books, movie or tv-shows. Sidious, Jack Bauer, Captain Kirk, Batman and hordes of other characters have plenty of fanboys out there. This is even more relevant for KotOR games than most other computer games, when you consider how very plot-driven and linear those games are. Just read the biographies of Revan and Exile on Wookieepedia. Do they read significantly different from those of Luke Skywalker (a movie character) or Mara Jade (a character only seen in the novels)? Of course not. Any complaint of how Revan or Exile were to die or be defeated would be just as relevant for any other beloved character in any other type of fiction.

 

Batman and McGuvyer have the superpower of high intelligence to allow them to do what they can done. Don't tell me you know how to design a uber-fast car and construct nuclear bombs out of paperclips.

 

No, but nor can they...

 

Anyway, we play as the characters in games. We play games to have fun...and many people have fun by stroking their ego of the character. (This is why there is Revan fanboyism...people play as Revan and stroke their ego by making Revan strong) If we do not have such a stroking of ego, why bother even playing this game at all?

 

Because the plot is compelling and the characters are strongly written. You don't continue to play in order to boost your own ego, you play to discover the things that you don't yet understand and to see what happens next in the plot. Well, I know that I do, anyway. This is especially true in KotOR, where you have little or no knowledge of your character. Revan is amnesic, so finding out why you have these visions of him is enticing. The Exile is not amnesic, but might as well be, given that he never volunteers anything about his past, not even to the player who is supposed to role-play him. That was damned annoying in TSL, too, and put me off quite a bit. I heard all this stuff about my character's past that I was not allowed to know myself. The worst part was when you met Bao-Dur, and you have to choose between remembering him and not knowing who he is completely in the blind. Ludicrous. Terrible storytelling. The Exile would actually have worked better in a film or book than in a computer game for that reason alone - how the heck am I supposed to role-play a character, if his entire past and all his previous choices and opinions are kept secret from me?!? At least Revan had the excuse of being amnesic.

 

Besides, what ego are we stroking in TSL? The Exile ran away from Malachor V like a scared little puppy-dog and then hid under a rock for a decade. Wow! Some hero! He didn't even know that he cut his forcebonds himself, for crying out loud... How much more can a character possible be in denial about himself? Yeah, that's some major stroking of ego right there...

 

If you are the only one that can stop the True Sith, you have a motivation to continue the crusade...instead of just relying on Revan and Exile to do the dirty work for you. You have your ego stroked, and you know that your life is important. If I don't feel as if my life is important, I do not feel a need to play, since my role can quite easily be replaced by some other random Jedi...and, more importantly, the True Sith are weak.

 

The true Sith are strong EXACTLY because you CAN'T do it alone - you need Revan and Exile to help you, either by making them fight to true Sith for their power or by making them side with you to save the Republic. There - stroking of ego for Revan, Exile, AND your new character right there.

 

You fail to answer that point well. If anyone, and I mean anyone, can destroy the True Sith, then why did Exile rush in to help Revan?

 

We don't know that he did. Kreia only implies that it will be necessary.

 

Why did Revan even fell to the DS to counter the True Sith? It sounds absurd that they failed, and yet you succeded...but it sounds more abusrd that they were even worried about the True Sith in the first place, if anyone can destroy it. The True Sith is supposed to be set up to be an awesome evil...so if it can be destroyed by anyone, well, what?

 

This one is pretty simple to answer, actually - you can do it because Revan, and possibly Exile too, already did most of the hard work. But in order to fight the true Sith, they both had to be DS, or they would have no allies in true Sith space. As such, they both want the power of the true Sith for themselves now - saving the republic is no longer a consideration.

 

I don't. Why bring back them? Their story is told. Everything that should be told must be told for the sake of the plot. I want total focus on the True Sith, and not on the other characters.

 

Revan and Exile are still out there, and their companions could be instrumental in dealing with them. And since you need the assistance of Revan and Exile to fight the true Sith, one way or another, that would make their old companions relevant. Quite simple, really. And it takes nothing of the focus away from the true Sith - of course they will be the major badguys. But it won't be all about them. Was every scene in KotOR about Malak or about Sion and Nihilus in TSL? No, they weren't. And letting the true Sith keep a little of their mystery does not sound like such a bad idea to me.

[Henz]

Okay I read somewhere about the idea of True Sith being more an idea than an actual race.

As much as I hate the idea of Revan/Exile being seen or fought in game for KOTORIII... what are peoples thoughts of this....

 

Final or near final game situation. You're fighting through some trippy true-sith tomb location; fighting some big nasty's and maybe elements of past etc. (basicaly a development of the one in TSL) The last chambers have pivitol plot points regarding R and E's fates. (I took Jediphile's idea of them falling to or remaining on thedark side for the scenario.) In the last chambers are:

 

- Blurry visions of figures in cloaks being affected sith style. Haunting echoes of screams and lightsabers etc. Revan "ghosts"

- Revan's last known journal. In it are notes of the mind affecting power of the location. "I found what appeared to be my exiled old friend... the Jedi I once knew had lost all reason and control... Became an entity of pure evil, a beast. It attacked me. I was sorry to do it.. I had no choice... I now fear for my own mind in this place... " blah blah. Yup, naming no genders, rev just killed the exile.

- A heavily rotted exile corpse with some special items on it (sexed-up lightsaber or whatnot)

 

In the very last chamber you find, cloaked of course, none other than Darth Revan. Gender is out of the window on this one. The time rev spent in this chamber has left not much better off than Nihlus so voices are irrelevent (although preferably still audiable).

In a fight not too different to the one with Sion. Each round leads to dialogue where you decide Revan's past. If he/she was light for you you can try and redeem them, if dark, you can end them. If you're a bad guy you can also weaken him/her with taunts etc.

 

Feel free to rip it to shreds hehe. Whether they're in it or not, I'd like new main villains so as to keep this more a treat for old fans and not confusing for n00bs.

[Jediphile]

^^

 

The major purpose of your suggestion seems to make Revan's and Exile's gender not be a problem. And quite honestly, I just don't see why it would be a problem in any way. Hence I don't see why either of them would need to be dead at the beginning of the next game. There is no reason to.

[Henz]

To have the exile dead eliminates gender, appearance, voice and possibly alignment issues if done properly.

[Jediphile]

To have the exile dead eliminates gender, appearance, voice and possibly alignment issues if done properly.

 

But why is that necessary? What purpose does it serve? There is no reason for that, at least not that I can see.

[Henz]

But why is that necessary? What purpose does it serve? There is no reason for that, at least not that I can see.

Mostly, it avoids problems of inconsistancy in the game series. It can be used as a plot device to make the killer appear more dangerous looking in terms of story too if that interests you.

[Jediphile]

Well, I don't see that there are any inconsistencies that need to be resolved. The Exile's story is pretty much the same regardless of which gender or alignment you choose (certainly there is less difference than there was for Revan in KotOR), and the differences are so minor that I don't see a problem in incorporating it all into a KotOR3 plot.

[Darth Avlectus]

It does establish something about the republic, but what I don't see is how this is relevant to the KotOR games?

 

It's just that so many other SW fans think that the KOTOR old republic and the old republic in the films are one and the same--totally forgetting the battle of Ruusan. Make you wanna smack'em upside the head because they don't pay attention.

 

 

KotOR is about 4000 years before the movies. The fall of the Sith Empire is about a thousand years before that. That still leaves an awful lot of holes and unknowns in Star Wars history. Over time, I'm sure all the blanks will be filled, though.

 

What?!? Excuse me, but Bane is a millennia before the movies. What you suggest means that almost 3000 years should just be casually skipped over between TSL and KotOR3. Besides, Darth Bane 's story is already told in the "Jedi vs. Sith" comic books.

 

And, of course, passing over 3000 years means that ANY plot left hanging in TSL is abandoned, because the galaxy doesn't stand still for that long. It definitely means no Revan, no Exile, no Bastila, etc., because clearly they're all dead by then.

 

Sorry. I guess I'm just a little impatient--my problem is not anger management, it's 'idiot' management--and thankfully you and a good number of other people here are NOT part of that idiotic SW fan crowd of which I speak. You know, the ones who twist and contort everything to match their view of how it all should be--then start mixing in other universes that are UN-starwarsy. I guess they are free to do what they want--but they are not free to preach it to others like us who actually respect and follow the true storyline.

I hope them 'holes are filled--'cuz having a contradictory storyline sucks......I don't think anybody will argue that much.

 

I guess I just want to find the next great fight and beat the living crap out of Darth Bane. Sorry if that sounds a little too mandalorian for you--I like Canderous.

 

 

I agree with you that we don't need an all-happy all-well ending for KotOR3. I don't think we got that in TSL, though. It would be okay if victory takes sacrifice. I could see Canderous be killed in a great war, for example. I admit I don't like him much (since I don't care much for the semi-fascist disposition of the Mandalorians), but he could lead the Mandalorians in an attack of vengeance for being used by the Sith in the past. Seeing characters like T3 or Atton die would also be tragic. Same for the LS Exile.

 

Truthfully, while Canderous is that way, he endears himself to me because 1) he solves problems without the crap

2) he recognizes when the existential tide is shifitng

3) he may follow good leadership, but he's no weakling yes-man.

4) amidst all the killing, he still has a twinge of honor.

 

Every good story and victory needs tragedy and sacrafice. That is why SW is so appealing to me. Without suffering, happiness and fulfillment is impossible. There is admittedly unnecessary sufferings (Vader), but in general, something has GOT to give. Otherwise, victory is not worth fighting for, and the peace is flat--everyone is spoiled.

 

Yes. Albeit that might be a little too close to the DS ending of Jedi Academy, methinks.

 

DAMN YOU! I don't have THAT game yet and you are spoiling it for me already. Well, you couldn't have known that. .....but still..... Shme on you!

 

DON'T say anymore--and if you or anyone else does, I hope you get yelled at by the moderators! Especially if I have to see it!

 

 

Actually, I'd like to revisit all the companions and major characters from the previous games (that are alive, of course). The fates of Revan and exile should be settled in KotOR3. Not necessarily meaning that they should do, but their problems should be resolved, I think.

 

 

Finally... someone whose sentiments are not that of incesent ramblings of fanboys and fangirls. Thank you--at least I know now that I'm not the only one who feels that way. I played with the idea of revan and exile being the bosses--but now I just think it should really move on.

 

 

 

...Uh, no. George Lucas forgets. He doesn't read the EU.

 

That was my quote, buddy. Not Jediphile. I think he pretty much straightened out what I thought was wrong.

 

Do your 'homework' then, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[Imoras]

Its not too bad

But its not something i'd like to see in the next Kotor

I'd rate it 6/10

I don't like the idea of fighting against Exile and i especially dislike the idea of fighting against Revan

 

edit:

 

Oh and... enough of the Ebon Hawk already

I want a different ship this time

And i want to fly it myself for christ's sake!

 

Umm...WTF? Obsidian doesn't make very good KotOR's? That is wrong, for two reasons:

 

a) That is not a fact and is your opinion only

b) They've only made one KotOR

 

It's LA's fault that the ending was cut to bits, not Obsidians, and if Obsidian completed the plot as originally intended by Avellone, IMO, it would have been much better than KotOR. I still think it's better than KotOR anyway, even the way it ended up. BioWare will not make another KotOR game ever again.

 

If its not obsidian's fault then how come the other obsidian game (nwn2) has exactly the same problems?

[SilentScope001]

Listen, I have a message typed out to Jediphile, but I cannot post it currently, due to some computer troubles. But the fact is, I think this debate should end. After I post, no more. There is no point to continue, we understand each other's viewpoint, and that is all. Maybe some other people, like the Arcitherct, can comment and say who is right or wrong, but we all excerise our right to choose if we want to buy the game or not.

 

If I dislike K3 when it comes out, I don't buy it simple.

[Darth Avlectus]

Its not too bad

But its not something i'd like to see in the next Kotor

I'd rate it 6/10

I don't like the idea of fighting against Exile and i especially dislike the idea of fighting against Revan

 

Oh and... enough of the Ebon Hawk already

I want a different ship this time

And i want to fly it myself for christ's sake!

 

Well, I have a thread on ideas for sith lord bosses, the one ending in please nothing rediculous......which I believe architect commented on?

I have nulled repeatedly over Rev and exile. I have some curiosity about it and what it'd be like, but then again...I'm not too hot for it... It wasn't even my idea originally, as a matter of fact.

 

You sound like you have some ideas--I'd like to hear if you don't mind.

So far we have discussed Women--mostly going into hotties...

We have discussed a sort of fog or entity without a body.

I have a few ideas all my own--but I think we all do.

 

I read on the sith lords issue of star wars insider 'the tome of the sith'... and it said that the dark jedi who were exiled after the great hyperspace war (Naga Sadow, Ludo Kareesh, Ajunta Pall, Marka Rangos) and their followers found a species called sith and they intermingled and evolved. The dark jedi proclaimed themselves the lords of the sith.

 

Later in an invasion, they pretty well beat down the republic, but they eventually fell...and the original species went extinct. This is also in the visual guide, released in 2005, which is pretty accurate.

 

I guess after that assault, for some time there were small wars, but, I guess most of them were sith fighting amongst themselves and each other--too much to be a threat and the jedi would just wipe them out or convert them at leisure.

 

It was not until Exar Kun that any sith were "worthy" of the title 'sith lord'. Then KOTORs 1&2...and we're looking at 3 right now. Then much later Kaan and his brotherhood and Bane and all that.

 

Then the thoiusand years of the republic in the movies and the rest is history---or the future.

 

That is my understanding.

 

I guess if everything is supposed to boil over into the sith empire, we should be seeing more corruption in politics. I hate politics.

[reven0123]

good idea's lots of room for flexability by them not being to heavily detailed.

[khawk]

This thread has seen a lot of long posts lately which is good. I guess I should comment on it as well. I agree with Jediphile that Revan and the Exile should return in the next game.

Some people think it would be hard to bring them back, it isn't. Complicated maybe but there are various ways to get around the problems. A Civil war is one idea, currently I am working on a story in which the True Sith are not all powerful beings who could easily wipe out the republic. No, my vision of the true sith is one quiet primitive race but with knowledge of techniques in the force which is quiet terrible, maybe more terrible then even Darth Nihilus. I guess I should spoil more about it. The story isn't on line yet, rest assured I will post it when I am finished.

Other then that, I think we should neither have Revan / Exile

 

1) being able to defeat the True Sith

2) see one or both of them as rulers of the True Sith empire

3) or have them simply be killed off

 

I think the new PC should have some means of defeating the True Sith because he/she has some ability which makes him/her able to do just that which doesn't make him more powerful, certainly not.

[SilentScope001]

For people hating the idea of fighting Exile/Revan, Im thinking of making another K3 Story, to see if I can attempt to fix the faults of the previous one.

 

If its not obsidian's fault then how come the other obsidian game (nwn2) has exactly the same problems?

 

They are not good with storyline problems, specifically how to end a game and such.

 

And, for the most part, they did do NW1 correctly.

===

Well, given that you've already said you like that subplot, this is obvious. However, it does not have priority in the greater plot of the games, and TSL in no way makes the Exile embrace Kreia's ideals, so while you may like for the Exile do that, there is no reason why any other player should want the Exile to do so.

 

But the Exile doesn't have to. All The Exile does is live and keep that wound open for Kreia to be happy, being an unnatural abbertion that will sooner or later be silenced the wound. But having The Exile close the wound himself defeat the whole purpose of TSL.

 

However, I am dropping this oppisiton, prescially because I have nothing to replace it. I just hate it, just all.

 

Because the plot is compelling and the characters are strongly written.

 

I play a game for fun. A compelling plot and strongly written characters add to the fun. It's up to you, however, to prove that the plot is compelling...and plausible. If the plot is not compelling, people will not play. People hate K2 and don't play it, because they hate it, and see the plot as being idioitic and stupid.

 

You see The Exile as a weak character but I actually liked learning more about my character by Roleplaying as him. But, onto the reason why he is an ego-booster: The Exile is a Wound In The Force, and is able to destroy Nihlius because of it. The Exile is the Last of the Jedi...he's the only one that can resurrect it by training the "Lost Jedi" to take after him. The Exile really is important and key...

 

James T. Kirk was killed by falling from a bridge. King Theoden was killed when his horse fell on him. Saruman was killed by his own henchman stabbing him in the back. And, of course, we should not forget that most of the uber-powerful jedi masters in RotS were killed by their own clonetrooper "grunts". You could claim they were not ordinary people, but they were no match next to a full jedi master.

 

How do you know if they really are uber-powerful Jedi? To me, they were "redshirts", who were created only so that they can be killed by the clonetroopers, and demonstrate how effective Code 66 is. The Jedi like Obi-Wan and Yoda were spared however...and I would bet Yoda is somewhat uber-powerful.

 

Also note that Star Terk was not about the Bridge That Kirk Fell Off. Kirk is famous, but the bridge is just that...a bridge. A plot device, that causes Kirk to die. Simple. Now, imagine a Star Trek Game where you play as the Bridge, and you go and train for that day when you are able to manlipuate yourself to cause Kirk to fall off the Bridge, knowing full well that Kirk could have fallen off any other bridge, and that you were selected to be the bridge due to plain old luck!

 

I would hate that game. But, your example had causes for the Jedi Padawan to be that Bridge. Something to laugh at, to stare at, but something that is not important. How lame.

 

Oh, please. As plot-driven as the KotOR games are, it is absurd to suggest a major difference between protagonists in computer games and protagonists in books, movie or tv-shows.

 

But Exile and Revan are not protagonisits in K3, I'm not worried of them. I'm very worried of the Progrationist, of the Jedi Padawan. Actually, to me, the reason WHY you are able to destroy the enemies is a very important and key part of the plot. Leave that undeveloped, and well, I'll dislike the game intensly.

 

But you say you want to stop the fanboys from thinking that Exile and Revan are immortal? Then why not let Exile and Revan be killed off...without the needs of the Player? Why must you keep them alive, why must we talk to them, why must we face them, why we redeem or kill them? Listen, it's okay for Exile and Revan to die, but I don't want them to be killed by a Jedi Padawan who has no special powers other than an ability to "empathize" with others.

 

They can die during the events of K3, as they aid the player as NPCs, before being wiped out. They can become Force Ghosts, aiding the player in his quest. They can cause lots of damage and wreckage, and have followers who still obey Revan and Exile's orders in spirit...that much effect Revan and Exile has.

 

And if the True Sith ends them, we finally realize this is a threat that has to be stopped. And then, the Player will be able to stop them.

 

The true Sith are strong EXACTLY because you CAN'T do it alone - you need Revan and Exile to help you, either by making them fight to true Sith for their power or by making them side with you to save the Republic. There - stroking of ego for Revan, Exile, AND your new character right there.

 

I don't want to stroke the ego of Revan and Exile. Revan and Exile's ego are stroked enough in K1 and K2, it is now the New Character's turn to have its ego stroked. In other words, this isn't Revan and Exile's game.

 

Expect, I don't see my New Character's ego being stroked. Maybe it is due to the fact that the True Sith would be easy to destroy, gameplay-wise. Since you offer no reason why the Player is the only one that can destroy the True Sith, (and even according to canon, the final battle where you battle the Leader of the True Sith...gets fought not by you, but by Darth Revan)...oh well. Not just that, but the New Character is reliant on Revan and Exile to weaken the Sith Empire...and the New Character is constantly reminded that he can be replaced by OTHER New Characters...

 

It's disappointing. To me, that's lazy storyline. I am not movivated to care for this character, nor should I. He's just some Jedi Padawan. Unimportant.

 

No, but nor can they...

 

Uber-fast car: Represents The Batmobile.

 

Nuclear Bomb Made Out of Paperclips: Represents basically any device that McGuvyer can make to get him out of the predicemant he is in. I was sastirizing McGuvyer here.

 

This one is pretty simple to answer, actually - you can do it because Revan, and possibly Exile too, already did most of the hard work. But in order to fight the true Sith, they both had to be DS, or they would have no allies in true Sith space. As such, they both want the power of the true Sith for themselves now - saving the republic is no longer a consideration.

 

But why not any OTHER Jedi Padawan? Why only you?

 

And it still make Exile and Revan look powerful and grand. I thought you hate fanboyism, but you are fueling it still.

 

Revan and Exile are still out there, and their companions could be instrumental in dealing with them.

 

But why even BOTHER bringing them in? I don't want this to be a KOTOR Reunion, I want new characters, with new backstories that would be interesting. Really, K2 was a lot better since instead of us gaining Carth as a party member, we got Atton instead.

 

I have neither suggested nor implied that, so please refrain from putting words in my mouth. All I said is that redeeming Revan and Exile through conversation would be possible if they were LS in the previous games. That cannot be taken to imply "defeat." Besides, I already said that if they were DS in the past, then they cannot be redeemed and must be killed. And obviously, if the new protagonist is DS, then they are both in his way on the rise to power and must be killed, in which case they deserve the same fate as all sith lords - betrayal and a knife in the back... Just as Sidious did to Plagueis.

 

Now THAT'S absurd.

 

Before, I was okay with your little "empathy" power. Okay, so you slowly manlipuate or redeem Exile and Revan onto your side. Now, suppose I like the Dark Side (let admit it, we all do). I then have my Jedi Padawan murder Exile and Revan...and I win.

 

A Jedi Padawan MURDERING Revan? Revan has been training for a long time, and he's a Jedi Knight. You're telling me a brand new Jedi Padawn can kill an experienced Force User? Fanboys will storm at your door...

 

But a Jedi Padawan killing Darth Nihlius? According to your story, if Exile is DS, you can seek to manlipuate that you can kill off the Jedi sent to capture the Exile, and then ally with Exile. He still keeps his Force Sucking power, if I assume correctly...thus being the nature of The Exile (and would even a redeemed Exile use his Force Sucking power)? The only way The Exile can stop his Force Sucking power is to go and deny the Force...but that creates a wound in the Force yet again, defeating the whole purpose of Revan converting The Exile into his little Planet Destroyer...as well as creating a brand NEW Darth Nihlius.

 

Regardless, Darth Nihlius, a Planet Destroyer, would easily suck you. And, wouldn't you know...you are not a wound in the Force. So long Jedi Padawn!

 

Not only that, but if you could destroy Darth Nihlius as a Jedi Padawan, you fuel fan speculation that Revan can elimante Darth Nihlius...which helps out fanboyism.

 

So a coup must succeed for it to be competent? I disagree completely. Admiral Zaarin very nearly killed the emperor with his treachery. Just because it did not succeed does not mean that it not present a genuine threat.

 

ALMOST, my friend. Ooh, I am a Stromtrooper, who almost murdered Luke Skywalker, but missed my shot by a half-a-mile. Time to make parades, right? No, for success is what defines what changes history and what doesn't. "Almost" doesn't cut it here.

 

They pose genuine threats, but the matter is that they failed. The Emproer reigned. Had the coup succeded, the Emproer's regin of terror would have ended, but they DIDN'T.

 

The problem with that is that the original trilogy was all done for more than a decade before anyone ever thought of battle meditation. And then it was only for Nomi Sunrider. It is also notable that not even the new movie trilogy demonstrate Palpatine's purported battle meditation in any way, nor does any of the other Star Wars material that I've ever seen or read.

 

I read it somewhere, but cannot cite it.

 

The major purpose of your suggestion seems to make Revan's and Exile's gender not be a problem. And quite honestly, I just don't see why it would be a problem in any way. Hence I don't see why either of them would need to be dead at the beginning of the next game. There is no reason to.

 

Gender, alignment, everything can easily be handled.

 

Yet I want Revan and Exile to now die.

 

Why?

 

1) We don't have to fight them. At all. This gets rid of the absurdity issue.

2) It makes the True Sith look strong and provides an OOC reason for revenge.

---

A note: This I think may be my final post. I do fear flame wars and such, and to be fair, neither of us will convince one another. You all have good ideas, and I like them, altough we do have different views of creativty. The designers of K3 will be the final arbiters. I will be happy if we are both wrong, and Obisidan creates an awesome game that has NEITHER of our storylines in it.

 

I would like The Arcitect however to go and make his viewpoint clear and comment on who he think is correct. We can use that as a guiding post to see who "won" this debate.

[Jediphile]

I read on the sith lords issue of star wars insider 'the tome of the sith'... and it said that the dark jedi who were exiled after the great hyperspace war (Naga Sadow, Ludo Kareesh, Ajunta Pall, Marka Rangos) and their followers found a species called sith and they intermingled and evolved. The dark jedi proclaimed themselves the lords of the sith.

 

Yes and no. You're mistaken about a few of few of the details and the exact timetable. First of all, always check the completely timeline on Wookieepedia in these cases. It's fanbased, but tends to be pretty accurate.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

 

Second, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Ajunta Pall, and Marka Ragnos were not exiled after the Great Hyperspace War - they all lived before or during that time. Just to take it chronologically...

 

The Sith order had its basis as a consequence of the Second Great Schism, which led to the period called the "Hundred Year Darkness", which was about 7000 BBY (Before the Battle of Yavin in Episode IV - get used to it because almost all times in Star Wars are given in how long after or, more often, before it takes place before the destruction of the first Death Star), or about 3000 years before the time of Exar Kun and the KotOR games.

 

At the end of the Hundred Year Darkness, the surviving dark jedi were exiled from the jedi order and were forced to leave the republic. They roamed space and found their way to Korriban where they found and enslaved the original sith species, which they subsequently interbred with until there was very little distinction left between the two (all the rumors of a powerful, original sith species should end right here - the dark jedi exiled from the republic founded the Sith Empire , not the sith species, which was soon after more or less extinct as a unique species).

 

Ajunta Pall seems to have been one of the dark jedi originally exiled after the Hundred Years Darkness, since you can get him to mention how the dark jedi betrayed their jedi masters.

 

Marka Ragnos, however, comes much, much later. He was a very powerful dark lord of the Sith Empire, and it prospered much under his rule. Indeed, Ragnos' death led to Great Hyperspace War and the eventual fall of the Sith Empire, because there were two potential successors to the throne after Ragnos' death: Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh.

 

Ludo Kressh wanted to preserve the Sith Empire as it was, while Sadow insisted that the empire needed to expand and so insisted on war against the republic. The struggles between the two took place about 5000 BBY, a millennium before the KotOR games, and are chronicled in the Golden Age of the Sith comic books.

 

Eventually Sadow killed Kressh (or so he thought) and took the throne of the dark lord. He then invaded the republic in the war known as the Great Hyperspace War. The republic eventually repelled his forces, however, and upon returning to the Sith Empire for reinforcement, Sadow learned that Kressh was not only alive, but had assumed the throne of the dark lord in his absense. Their two fleets fought harshly, and Sadow finally killed Kressh, but did not know that the republic fleet had followed him. Weakened by battle, both Sith fleets fell to the republic fleet and with them the Sith Empire. This is all chronicled in the Fall of the Sith Empire comic books.

 

Naga Sadow survived and fled to Yavin IV, where he constructed a new temple. His final fate is unknown. He is known to have somehow taught the fallen jedi Freedon Nadd from Onderon the ways of the dark side around 4400 BBY, almost 600 years after the fall of the Sith Empire.

 

The teachings of Freedon Nadd and Naga Sadow later led to the fall jedi knights Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma, whose corruption led to the Great Sith War around 4000 BBY, about 30 to 40 years before the KotOR games. These events are chronicled in the original "Tales of the Jedi" comic books (the comics about the fall of the Sith Empire were written later) beginning with "The Knights of the Old Repubic" ("Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beastriders of Onderon" and "The Saga of Nomi Sunrider"), "The Freedon Nadd Uprising", "The Dark Lords of the Sith", "The Sith War", and finally "Redemption".

 

If you read through the links above, beware of spoilers.

 

It was not until Exar Kun that any sith were "worthy" of the title 'sith lord'. Then KOTORs 1&2...and we're looking at 3 right now. Then much later Kaan and his brotherhood and Bane and all that.

 

Well, we actually don't know that... All we know is that there were no sith lords known to the republic between the Great Hyperspace War and the Great Sith War. Freedon Nadd is quite notably not a Sith Lord and "only" ranks as high as dark jedi. But there could have been Sith Lords in the remnants of the Sith Empire during that time for all we know. I suspect KotOR3 might shed some light on that.

[PoiuyWired]

Well, Sith Lord is a title, greely given and taken quit a bit, especially during the times just before/During Bane. Before that anyone with the force and a bit of sith-isque teaching can call himself a Sith Lord, if he survive long enough to be known/remembered as such.

[Jediphile]

But the Exile doesn't have to. All The Exile does is live and keep that wound open for Kreia to be happy, being an unnatural abbertion that will sooner or later be silenced the wound. But having The Exile close the wound himself defeat the whole purpose of TSL.

 

Closing wound != being able to make a new one.

 

And Kreia teachings have nothing to do with the wound it itself, just with the Exile's ability to resist the will of the force. If Kreia loves force wounds to much, then why does she say this:

 

Kreia: "Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.Then you understand how terrible such a power is. And why it must be ended.It is an empty road to the dark side, and by traveling it, the price is death before one's time.He is a breach in the Force, capable of consuming the lives of those around him. Sometimes the touch is slow, as it is with his crew.It is not something he can direct or focus, much like hunger itself. He is more of a hole in the Force than a living thing. Force Sensitives and worlds rich in the Force draw him. The Miraluka world was one such place. That is why where the Jedi gather, Jedi will die. He will feel it, unless they mask their presence - but Katarr called out as a beacon to him, and he could not resist it.And he cares nothing for the Sith or its teachings... or the Jedi.And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well. And when the Jedi are dead, her master will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well. There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees. And that is why he must be stopped on Onderon. The breach must be sealed, before his power grows beyond what even we can stop."

 

Now consider why Kreia is fascinated by the Exile.

 

Kreia: "But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied."

 

Kreia's goal: "Deny the will of the force"

Not Kreia's goal: "Wound the force"

 

I play a game for fun. A compelling plot and strongly written characters add to the fun. It's up to you, however, to prove that the plot is compelling...and plausible. If the plot is not compelling, people will not play. People hate K2 and don't play it, because they hate it, and see the plot as being idioitic and stupid.

 

As someone else said recently, many gaming companies would love to have a "failure" like TSL. Sure people hate K2 - that's why they bought it...

 

You see The Exile as a weak character but I actually liked learning more about my character by Roleplaying as him. But, onto the reason why he is an ego-booster: The Exile is a Wound In The Force, and is able to destroy Nihlius because of it. The Exile is the Last of the Jedi...he's the only one that can resurrect it by training the "Lost Jedi" to take after him. The Exile really is important and key...

 

I said the exile was a weak character, yes. I did not say he was an uninteresting character. It is interesting that the Obsidian dares to have such a character as the protoganist. It doesn't change that the exile has a history of denial and self-delusion, though.

 

How do you know if they really are uber-powerful Jedi? To me, they were "redshirts", who were created only so that they can be killed by the clonetroopers, and demonstrate how effective Code 66 is. The Jedi like Obi-Wan and Yoda were spared however...and I would bet Yoda is somewhat uber-powerful.

 

Well, if you're going to flat out deny that people sitting on the council next to Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda are powerful, then arguing seems pointless to me...

 

But Exile and Revan are not protagonisits in K3, I'm not worried of them. I'm very worried of the Progrationist, of the Jedi Padawan. Actually, to me, the reason WHY you are able to destroy the enemies is a very important and key part of the plot. Leave that undeveloped, and well, I'll dislike the game intensly.

 

Why were Lando Calrissian and Nien Numb able to destroy the second Death Star? Was it because nobody else could have pushed the button? No, it was because THEY WERE THERE!

 

How was Han Solo able to save Luke from Darth Vader in the first movie? Was it because no other ship had the power to fire on TIE Fighters or because Han Solo had special abilities that allowed him alone to accomplish that feat? No, it was because HE WAS THERE!

 

The value of being at the right place at the right time should not be underestimated or ignored. If it always depended on only the people with the exactly right skills being present to solve things, then the galaxy would already be dead.

 

Obi-Wan had no special skills to defeat Darth Maul with - he was not even a particularly powerful jedi - but he still prevailed. He was indeed a padawan who defeated a dark lord lord of the Sith. And one who had just killed his jedi master, I might add.

 

Han, Luke, Leia, and Chewie would all have been killed in that shaft on the Death Star, if R2 hadn't reprogrammed the computer. Did that take special skills? No. All it took was the opportunity.

 

Even in TSL, three of your companions must enter the tomb of Freedon Nadd and stop the Sith. By your definition they shouldn't have done that, since the Exile is simply better suited for it.

 

But you say you want to stop the fanboys from thinking that Exile and Revan are immortal? Then why not let Exile and Revan be killed off...without the needs of the Player? Why must you keep them alive, why must we talk to them, why must we face them, why we redeem or kill them?

 

Because they are good character who still have plenty of potential left in them. Pretty simple, really...

 

Listen, it's okay for Exile and Revan to die, but I don't want them to be killed by a Jedi Padawan who has no special powers other than an ability to "empathize" with others.

 

Alas, my argument of "knife in the back" and pointing to my sig appear to have fallen on deaf ears

 

But yes, it's okay for them to die. It's just disappointing to throw the baby out with the bathwater like that... Or the potential away that remains in those characters...

 

And if the True Sith ends them, we finally realize this is a threat that has to be stopped. And then, the Player will be able to stop them.

 

The concept of killing off characters just to prove an enemy is dangerous is so cliché and outdated that it was a major point of Galaxy Quest: "I don't have a last name - you know why? Because my character is not important enough to have a last name... Because I'm gonna die!!"

 

Seriously, the notorious "red-shirts" of Star Trek were so overdone that the Enterprise show made the mistake of going too far the other way, meaning that nobody EVER died...

 

Sorry, but that's no reason for blatantly killing off good characters - it's cliché and overdone anyway.

 

Expect, I don't see my New Character's ego being stroked. Maybe it is due to the fact that the True Sith would be easy to destroy, gameplay-wise. Since you offer no reason why the Player is the only one that can destroy the True Sith,

 

Actually, I did...

 

(and even according to canon, the final battle where you battle the Leader of the True Sith...gets fought not by you, but by Darth Revan)...

 

Where do you get that from? The game isn't even announced yet. We know nothing about what will happen in the plot...

 

oh well. Not just that, but the New Character is reliant on Revan and Exile to weaken the Sith Empire...and the New Character is constantly reminded that he can be replaced by OTHER New Characters...

 

Well, nobody is irreplaceable. Ego-stroking to the extent that "OMG - THE UNIVERSE WILL DIE IF *I* ALONE DO NOT SAVE IT" is not a healthy principle to promote in any sort of fiction methinks. Character being powerful and significant is okay, but the character being essential to the point where all life will die without him is just silly and narcissistic to any sickening degree.

 

It's disappointing. To me, that's lazy storyline. I am not movivated to care for this character, nor should I. He's just some Jedi Padawan. Unimportant.

 

"Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're our only hope"

 

Yeah, that's pretty original plot right there... :x

 

And it still make Exile and Revan look powerful and grand. I thought you hate fanboyism, but you are fueling it still.

 

No, because I'm not prepared to give Revan and Exile they oh-so-heroic deaths that you are. If they are DS, then they must die by the treachery of a mere apprentice - not much fanboyism there. If they are LS, they must suffer the indignity of being redeemed by their friends and a padawan - not much fanboyism there either.

 

But why even BOTHER bringing them in? I don't want this to be a KOTOR Reunion, I want new characters, with new backstories that would be interesting. Really, K2 was a lot better since instead of us gaining Carth as a party member, we got Atton instead.

 

TSL reused Carth, Bastila, T3, HK, Canderous... In short, it reused all those characters that were not obviously killed off in the DS ending. Was TSL "KotOR Reunion"? Did that prevent new characters from being in TSL?

 

Now THAT'S absurd.

 

Before, I was okay with your little "empathy" power. Okay, so you slowly manlipuate or redeem Exile and Revan onto your side. Now, suppose I like the Dark Side (let admit it, we all do). I then have my Jedi Padawan murder Exile and Revan...and I win.

 

A Jedi Padawan MURDERING Revan? Revan has been training for a long time, and he's a Jedi Knight. You're telling me a brand new Jedi Padawn can kill an experienced Force User? Fanboys will storm at your door...

 

But a Jedi Padawan killing Darth Nihlius? According to your story, if Exile is DS, you can seek to manlipuate that you can kill off the Jedi sent to capture the Exile, and then ally with Exile. He still keeps his Force Sucking power, if I assume correctly...thus being the nature of The Exile (and would even a redeemed Exile use his Force Sucking power)? The only way The Exile can stop his Force Sucking power is to go and deny the Force...but that creates a wound in the Force yet again, defeating the whole purpose of Revan converting The Exile into his little Planet Destroyer...as well as creating a brand NEW Darth Nihlius.

 

Regardless, Darth Nihlius, a Planet Destroyer, would easily suck you. And, wouldn't you know...you are not a wound in the Force. So long Jedi Padawn!

 

Not only that, but if you could destroy Darth Nihlius as a Jedi Padawan, you fuel fan speculation that Revan can elimante Darth Nihlius...which helps out fanboyism.

 

Alas, my argument of "knife in the back" and pointing to my sig appear to have fallen on deaf ears

 

My, why do I get this odd sense of deja vu now...

 

ALMOST, my friend. Ooh, I am a Stromtrooper, who almost murdered Luke Skywalker, but missed my shot by a half-a-mile. Time to make parades, right?

 

Yes, that's the same thing, sure...

 

However, in the interest of civility and constructive discussion, I shall endeavour to restrain myself from responding in a similar tone...

 

They pose genuine threats, but the matter is that they failed. The Emproer reigned. Had the coup succeded, the Emproer's regin of terror would have ended, but they DIDN'T.

 

Actually no, Zaarin would just have been emperor instead.

 

I read it somewhere, but cannot cite it.

 

To use your own words, "that doesn't cut it".

 

I've read people mention this too, but they've never given a source for it.

 

Yet I want Revan and Exile to now die.

 

Well, I don't. It serves no constructive purpose and so is both silly and wasteful.

 

2) It makes the True Sith look strong and provides an OOC reason for revenge.

 

OOC = bad roleplaying. I'd rather identify with my character than roleplay him under false pretenses to be perfectly honest.

[Henz]

Why were Lando Calrissian and Nien Numb able to destroy the second Death Star? Was it because nobody else could have pushed the button? No, it was because THEY WERE THERE!

 

How was Han Solo able to save Luke from Darth Vader in the first movie? Was it because no other ship had the power to fire on TIE Fighters or because Han Solo had special abilities that allowed him alone to accomplish that feat? No, it was because HE WAS THERE!

 

The value of being at the right place at the right time should not be underestimated or ignored. If it always depended on only the people with the exactly right skills being present to solve things, then the galaxy would already be dead.

 

The "right time, right place" factor is also a big factor in Anakin's fall of course. He was a loose cannon, but showed no real motivaiton to turn without Palpy's meddling. Then he happens to stumble upon Palpy in his only weak moment - cowering under Windu. The tragedy of his fall of course is that the visions that drove him lead him to make them true. He went dark to save Padme, and going dark ultimately killed her.

 

In short, i agree lol

 

You guys don't half post looooooong messgaes which are simply "I want Revan and Exile" vs. "I don't"

 

I personally don't. ...Revan maybe.

[The Architect]

Actually, as someone pointed out the other day, if Exile is turned into a neo-Nihilus, then Exile would just speak "Nihilus-speak" and you wouldn't need a voice-actor as such - just reuse Nihilus' "speech" from TSL and provide the responses as text only like it is done for all the aliens in the KotOR games. For people who complain that Revan shouldn't speak, well, Revan DID speak in KotOR, so we do know what his/her voice sounds like.

 

Well, personally I don’t like, no, I hate that idea. Why? Because while I agree with your theory that the Exile is a dark manifestation of Darth Nihilus, that doesn’t mean I think that the Exile is going to become exactly like Darth Nihilus, and that’s the impression I’ll get if he/she sounds like a flushing toilet like Nihilus did.

 

Darth Nihilus was just that, in TSL. What I’d like to see in KotOR III is the Exile + Darth Nihilus = Darth Nihilus the Exile, not the Exile + Darth Nihilus = Darth Nihilus, capish? You see, I always thought that Nihilus sounded like a flushing toilet precisely because of his inhuman, void in the force status in TSL. I don’t want DNtE to be an inhuman, void in the force as well. I’d rather the devs just give the Exile a voice. One for the male Exile, and one for the female Exile.

 

Yes. I've actually been considering than maybe DS Revan should just be the leader of the true Sith that must ultimately be destroyed in KotOR3 - he accepted the dark side in the Rakatan temple, and now he is evil incarnate. LS Revan has sacrificed himself to the dark side for the greater good, however, and has not fallen so far.

 

I like that idea. I’ve also thought about this idea if you set Revan as DS too. Instead of having no choice but to kill DS Revan, what if you had the option of becoming his/her apprentice, or became the apprentice of Revan’s apprentice, DS Exile, or DS Bastila (if the Exile is LS)?

 

This way, you’re not forced to kill Revan, and can avoid the risky plan of ‘manipulating’ the cause of DS Revan’s death, or ganging up on him/her. I can’t see the PC of KotOR III becoming the Dark Lord of the True Sith, because I don’t see why only Revan and the Exile would be more powerful than you. Remember, according to your story, you’re not that powerful, and with good reason, since there’s no ‘reason’ in your plot to be uber powerful.

 

There are other things you could do to reflect alignment choices of the previous games. For example, in my plot I had the group go to Revan's hideout on Khar Shian in order to find the way to Ziost. If the Exile is DS, however, you could go to Malachor V instead. Just use the same characters with very little differences and run different movies/cutscenes leading to those planets. That's a notable difference right there, because there will be no Malachor V to visit if the Exile is LS.

 

Yeah, that's an acceptable idea in my opinion. Look, you and me both know their are plenty of ways to reflect the alignment/gender choices of the previous games. We also both know that it's really not all that hard (as what some people make it out to be) for the devs to implement.

 

I would say no, because it defeats the power of the dark side completely. A consistent theme not only in Star Wars but in most popular fiction is that you can't do evil without becoming evil. It's the same with the ring in LOTR - Boromir wants to use as a weapon against Sauron and must pay the ultimate price for it. Ulic couldn't resist the dark side, Revan couldn't, and Luke couldn't either (though he didn't fall so far that he could not be redeemed). No one can. You could claim the Exile did, but the price for that was just as high. I will be really disappointed if Revan can just casually shrug off the dark side and turn back to the light on his own. LS Revan would be able to do only if he is forced by his old friends to remember what he was fighting for in the first place, and DS Revan wouldn't do it at all.

 

Well yeah, I agree that it would most likely make the DS look shabby. This is where I don’t like some of the concepts of Star Wars though. Revan’s already had amnesia, why would he/she forget what he/she is fighting for in the first place? Can the DS do that to someone like Revan?

 

I can’t see LS Revan going:

 

“Hmm, even though I orchestrated a civil war amongst the True Sith and crippled them to the point where my allies were able to finish them off, I might just attack my friends now and take over the galaxy. I really like this whole being a Sith Lord and DS stuff. I forgot how great it was. Now I wondered why I bothered to protect the Republic, the Jedi and my friends in the first place, since I’m now going to kill them.”

 

Can you?

 

If its not obsidian's fault then how come the other obsidian game (nwn2) has exactly the same problems?

 

Well I haven't played NWN2 but O RLY? First I've heard of it. I didn't know NWN2 had problems of around about the same level TSL had. And yes, it is LA's fault, because they gave them a laughable development schedule in the first place, then about half way through development, they out of the blue decided to cut another two months from an already crappy time schedule, thus resulting in a mess!

 

And yes hawk, I agree with points 1, 2 and 3 of yours, which I assume you already know.

[Jediphile]

Well, personally I don’t like, no, I hate that idea. Why? Because while I agree with your theory that the Exile is a dark manifestation of Darth Nihilus, that doesn’t mean I think that the Exile is going to become exactly like Darth Nihilus, and that’s the impression I’ll get if he/she sounds like a flushing toilet like Nihilus did.

 

Darth Nihilus was just that, in TSL. What I’d like to see in KotOR III is the Exile + Darth Nihilus = Darth Nihilus the Exile, not the Exile + Darth Nihilus = Darth Nihilus, capish? You see, I always thought that Nihilus sounded like a flushing toilet precisely because of his inhuman, void in the force status in TSL. I don’t want DNtE to be an inhuman, void in the force as well. I’d rather the devs just give the Exile a voice. One for the male Exile, and one for the female Exile.

 

Actually, I tend to agree with you. I don't see why giving the exile a voice is such a big deal, but some people seem really adamant about it, in which case this could be a way to deal with it.

 

There are even those who want Revan to be silent. I don't get that at all, since Revan did actually have a voice in KotOR, although I'll admit that he didn't say much beyond the odd "ready"-prompt or a battlecry.

 

I like that idea. I’ve also thought about this idea if you set Revan as DS too. Instead of having no choice but to kill DS Revan, what if you had the option of becoming his/her apprentice, or became the apprentice of Revan’s apprentice, DS Exile, or DS Bastila (if the Exile is LS)?

 

This way, you’re not forced to kill Revan, and can avoid the risky plan of ‘manipulating’ the cause of DS Revan’s death, or ganging up on him/her. I can’t see the PC of KotOR III becoming the Dark Lord of the True Sith, because I don’t see why only Revan and the Exile would be more powerful than you. Remember, according to your story, you’re not that powerful, and with good reason, since there’s no ‘reason’ in your plot to be uber powerful.

 

True enough, but then I didn't see much reason for Revan to be that powerful in KotOR. I mean, yes, he WAS the dark lord of the Sith and WAS very powerful in the force. However, he was also amnesic and had forgotten all his powers and techniques in the force. So at best, I could take his knowledge of his past only as affirmation of his potential. You know, "I must be powerful - I was the dark lord of the Sith, after all!" That would bring Revan some sort of confidence in his powers, especially if he was DS. He did not know he was Revan for a long time, though. And for the LS Revan, it would be a heavy cross to bear, like "I can clearly become powerful, but maybe I shouldn't... Because if I do, how can I be sure that I'm not doomed to fall to the dark side as I did before?" As much as we might hate to admit it, Vrook could have had a point after all... at least until we get know Vrook and learn that he is ALWAYS wrong. Even when he's right

 

So all that being the case, I didn't see much reason for Revan to grow so powerful in so short a time without his memories in KotOR. Yet he did. So I could see the same being true for a new padawan. Not quite with as great potential as Anakin or even Revan, but still with a lot of potential. Someone who has the same potential as Obi-Wan perhaps. It would be nice to play a padawan who mirrors Obi-Wan from Episode I just a little, I think. No carbon copy, though.

 

Well yeah, I agree that it would most likely make the DS look shabby. This is where I don’t like some of the concepts of Star Wars though. Revan’s already had amnesia, why would he/she forget what he/she is fighting for in the first place? Can the DS do that to someone like Revan?

 

I can’t see LS Revan going:

 

“Hmm, even though I orchestrated a civil war amongst the True Sith and crippled them to the point where my allies were able to finish them off, I might just attack my friends now and take over the galaxy. I really like this whole being a Sith Lord and DS stuff. I forgot how great it was. Now I wondered why I bothered to protect the Republic, the Jedi and my friends in the first place, since I’m now going to kill them.”

 

Can you?

 

To me it's simply a case of "power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely."

 

And while Revan may have forgotten his past in KotOR, bear in mind that Bastila mentions in KotOR, both for LS and DS Revan, that he remembered something, but wouldn't talk about it. Indeed, Revan's post-KotOR1 crusade against the true Sith is based entirely on that fact that he recalled things about them. Not only that, he remembered Malachor as well. He might have remembered lots of things... or all.

 

But more than anything, I think LS Revan will fall because he chooses to.

 

"The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew," Kreia said.

 

She offered as an explanation of Revan's fall in the past, but I could also see it as foreshadowing of the choices Revan made after KotOR1.

 

"Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others."

 

That observation seems even more relevant to Revan after KotOR1 than before, if you ask me, since it defines some character-traits in Revan that could explain his choice to leave the republic and fight the true Sith, no matter what the cost would be to himself personally. He was not willing to sacrifice his loved ones or his friends, though.

[Darth Avlectus]

For people hating the idea of fighting Exile/Revan, Im thinking of making another K3 Story, to see if I can attempt to fix the faults of the previous one.

 

GOOD! Finally, one who thinks outside the repetition box. Go ahead, be my guest. I don't necessarily 'hate' the idea (as exile probably could stand to have a cameo like in a dream the same way revan had--I would NOT call that a real fight--hard as it may or may not have been. Just because you can dream fight someone does not mean you will actully beat that person in reality. I know the incesent nihilus and exile fans will be all over this chew me out fir saying the truth, but it needs to be said.), but I do think the next one should move on--after all, the galaxy doesn't just sit still does it?

 

They are not good with storyline problems, specifically how to end a game and such.

And, for the most part, they did do NW1 correctly.

 

I'm sure while we could all help, unfortunately they hire their own groups of people...Hopefully they hire someone who is reading this right now and considering our positions. That is about as likely as the chances of playing donkey kong for atari and Kevin DuBrow of quiet riot somewhere else playing it at exactly the same time--It probably isn't goin' to happen.

 

 

But the Exile doesn't have to. All The Exile does is live and keep that wound open for Kreia to be happy, being an unnatural abbertion that will sooner or later be silenced the wound. But having The Exile close the wound himself defeat the whole purpose of TSL.

 

However, I am dropping this oppisiton, prescially because I have nothing to replace it. I just hate it, just all.

 

Here, here. I'm sure architecht can come up with something.

 

 

I play a game for fun. A compelling plot and strongly written characters add to the fun. It's up to you, however, to prove that the plot is compelling...and plausible. If the plot is not compelling, people will not play. People hate K2 and don't play it, because they hate it, and see the plot as being idioitic and stupid.

 

You see The Exile as a weak character but I actually liked learning more about my character by Roleplaying as him. But, onto the reason why he is an ego-booster: The Exile is a Wound In The Force, and is able to destroy Nihlius because of it. The Exile is the Last of the Jedi...he's the only one that can resurrect it by training the "Lost Jedi" to take after him. The Exile really is important and key...

 

(seriously) So you think he's weak more because of plot line, I take it?

 

 

 

How do you know if they really are uber-powerful Jedi? To me, they were "redshirts", who were created only so that they can be killed by the clonetroopers, and demonstrate how effective Code 66 is. The Jedi like Obi-Wan and Yoda were spared however...and I would bet Yoda is somewhat uber-powerful.

 

Yoda: Hmm? Interested in hearing this explanation, I am. Yes indeed.

 

 

 

But Exile and Revan are not protagonisits in K3, I'm not worried of them. I'm very worried of the Progrationist, of the Jedi Padawan. Actually, to me, the reason WHY you are able to destroy the enemies is a very important and key part of the plot. Leave that undeveloped, and well, I'll dislike the game intensly.

 

I wish more companies would realize that. Like Capcom, and Tecmo.

 

 

But you say you want to stop the fanboys from thinking that Exile and Revan are immortal? Then why not let Exile and Revan be killed off...without the needs of the Player? Why must you keep them alive, why must we talk to them, why must we face them, why we redeem or kill them? Listen, it's okay for Exile and Revan to die, but I don't want them to be killed by a Jedi Padawan who has no special powers other than an ability to "empathize" with others.

 

They can die during the events of K3, as they aid the player as NPCs, before being wiped out. They can become Force Ghosts, aiding the player in his quest. They can cause lots of damage and wreckage, and have followers who still obey Revan and Exile's orders in spirit...that much effect Revan and Exile has.

 

Finally, another idea! Hooray!

 

And if the True Sith ends them, we finally realize this is a threat that has to be stopped. And then, the Player will be able to stop them.

 

I don't want to stroke the ego of Revan and Exile. Revan and Exile's ego are stroked enough in K1 and K2, it is now the New Character's turn to have its ego stroked. In other words, this isn't Revan and Exile's game.

 

Like I was saying, we should make a move away-to progress onward and not BACKWARD.

 

<snip>

 

.... I was sastirizing McGuvyer here.

 

But why not any OTHER Jedi Padawan? Why only you?

 

And it still make Exile and Revan look powerful and grand. I thought you hate fanboyism, but you are fueling it still.

 

 

--I like the humility--

Good question--why only one?

 

IMO:Mcguyver as a character is pretty cool, certainly enjoyed watching as a kid...what's wrong with a character with wits and knowledge?

We need a Han solo type that has an appreciation for that kind of improvisation and knowledge. And one who is effective at combat, like a scoundrel's personality and skill, mixed with a scout's combat capabilities which is basically like a soldier but less damage, or fancy.

 

Gender, alignment, everything can easily be handled.

 

Yet I want Revan and Exile to now die.

 

Comment: No better way of handling meatbags--heheh.

 

Why?

 

1) We don't have to fight them. At all. This gets rid of the absurdity issue.

2) It makes the True Sith look strong and provides an OOC reason for revenge.

---

A note: This I think may be my final post. I do fear flame wars and such, and to be fair, neither of us will convince one another. You all have good ideas, and I like them, altough we do have different views of creativty. The designers of K3 will be the final arbiters. I will be happy if we are both wrong, and Obisidan creates an awesome game that has NEITHER of our storylines in it.

 

Good reasoning.

 

As such, that's reality and business--the companies hire who they want.

 

I would like The Arcitect however to go and make his viewpoint clear and comment on who he think is correct. We can use that as a guiding post to see who "won" this debate.

 

I've seen your stuff too, architect. While I still haven't had time to go over *everything*, your contributions to one of my threads, let alone everything else you've done, I have read your other stuff enouhg to be interested. So I'd like to see what a person of your effort can come up with next...

 

I liked that "Waru" creature from the anti-force universe in the 'crystal dwarf' novel (at least I think it was called that) who needs to consume one strong in the force to get back home. (And I'd be curious to see what would happen to nihilus trying to suck a creature's life away that was of anti force and served as a gateway to another universe--I'm not a fanboy of either revan or nihilus BTW.) as an idea for a boss--or an abomination as such who is desperate and eats the loser of the last boss fight. Oh, yeah. That happened in a base near where a dead sun was about to be consumed by a black hole--the energy fluctuations make weapons malfunction. So if it were in the game, it would have to be a duel of powers and hand to hand combat. Lest your lightsaber explodes like a grenade in your hand.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Wow. I haven't been following this thread at all. How have I not seen it?! Oh well, I'm not quite as creative as you guys, so I can't come up with these great ideas. I'll just let you guys post them and then I can agree with them.

 

I hate how some people say that there would be too many variables if the devs didn't use canon for K3. Choosing the alignment/gender of Revan and the Exile are very important to me. I wouldn't really like it if my choices from the last two games were just cast aside for the sake of "having too many variables."

 

I also like the idea of the Exile being Revan's apprentice and becoming the new Darth Nihilus. Of course, LS Revan and Exile could be redeemed, as much as I don't really like the idea of redemption playing a large part in this game, I suppose it might have to.

 

Well that's pretty much all I've got (I know... pathetic), but everyone else has already laid all my thoughts out on the table. I just hope there is someone out there who works for LucasArts or Obsidian (or whoever might make K3) that actually looks at all these ideas. I know, it's unlikely, but I still hope.