TSL Vs. KOTOR

[SilentScope001]

While I do agree with the Jediphile Tag-Team that TSL is a very unique game...

 

Still, I think I might agree with T-Bolt's idea that TSL might have copied parts from ESB. The fact of the 'hidden secret' (being a wound in the Force/Revan TRYING to save the Republic by blowing it up versus having a Sith Lord as a father), and the Rebellion/Republic getting very wounded. Heh, if you add in Atton's death, it brings up memories of the capture of Han Solo. Palpatine's first apperance WAS in ESB, and Palpatine is a big infulence on Kreia. I do however think most of it is quite concidental, and take seffort

 

There are unique characters, to be sure, and unique for the Star Wars series, but there has been allegations that the writers of K2 usually borrow stuff from Planetside, so then again, you can set yourself up for a debating point over there.

 

There is also the point of 'character backgrounds', or archetypes, that TSL borrowed. Unique for Star Wars, but not really unique when one looks at it.

 

Here are character archetypes not in Star Wars but still was 'stolen' and really unique (my views):

-Visas: The Gothic Chic. She wears white, wants to have the Male Exile 'see her', and if you refuse to use Force Sight to see her, she talks about 'meeting in the place where the Force does not meet'. She's scarred emotionally.

-Mira: The Manly Chic (into bounty hunting).

-Hanharr: The Psyhotic Stalker and Vengeful Person. Really distrubing.

-Atton: Lovable Scondrel/Evil Sith Trooper. Guy praised The Exile for killing off more Jedi than he did, "for different reasons, but the action was still there".

-Handmadien: ANOTHER Manly Chic (into guarding Atris).

-Kreia: Schoolteacher You Love to Hate But Knows She's Always Right...Which Is Why You Hate Her. /Evil Overlord Who Wants to Kill You (True, she does it to help train you, but the "action is still there").

-Bao-Dur: The Sinful Person who wants to be Redeemed. Unlike all the other bad guys in the story, who mostly gets redeemed before they kick the dust or who refuses to get redeemed, Bao-Dur actually attempts to heal himself, by throwing himself into work.

-HK-47: Pure blood-lust, stripped of the 'honor' justification of the Mandalorians, or the 'revenge' rationalization of Hanharr. A barbarian as seen in the eyes of civilization. This is unique, but as the Mandalorians came first, introduced via Canderous, HK-47 is seen as copycat of that, IMHO.

 

And For the Characters That ARE copied From Star Wars:

-Disciple: Carth. He was betrayed by the Jedi Order, just like Carth was betrayed by Saul Karath. Disciple is also a fan of the Republic and serves it quite well (as a spy), just like Carth (who serves as a trooper). Also, just as whiny as Carth. He's really interesting to learn from history...but, well, he's one of the weakest part of TSL. Just like Carth was the weakest part as well.

-Darth Sion: Darth Maul, Difference is the fact you can 'break' him at the end.

-Nihlius: Death Star in pratice (he gobbles up worlds!), Star Forge in sentience (Darth Malak states that the Star Forge has a 'hunger', and it was this hunger that caused the Star Forge to start up the Rakatan Civil War)

-Revan: The Villian who's fighting for something...greater. I'm thinking Johnatan V. Last's intereprtion of Darth Vader here, who believes Darth Vader joined with the Empire in order to heal the galaxy from chaos and ruin. If we accept Johnatan V. Last's view, Revan is Darth Vader, cast in a good light.

-Canderous: Orignally just a Mandalorian grunt in K1, he morphed into Count Dooku, in charisma and 'tactics'. How else did he manage to gained recurits so quickly to make a huge anti-Republic army? He also has a secret master pulling the strings (Revan).

-Atris: Another clone of Count Dooku. According to the Clone Wars and the Revenge of the Sith novelzation (as sourced in Wookipedia), Count Dooku actually saw the Jedi Order as being weak and resigned from the Jedi Order after the Battle of Nabbo. He then decides to go and search for Sith holocrons, so that he would be able to learn more about the Sith, and how best to counter it. Sounds familar? Count Dooku soon realizes that the Dark Side indeed is better and then get recruited by Palpatine. When seen in this light, Kreia converting Atris to the Dark Side makes sense.

-Vaklu: Count Dooku...again. Charsmastic general, as Mandalore/Canderous. Here, we see a third side of Dooku: the ability to be flexiable. Vaklu allied with the Sith, and then, if you join up with him, stage a betrayal of his allies in order to gain an advantage. He also reveals his anti-Republic sentiment, and plans to sponser rebellion movements against the Republic as well...(CIS, anyone?)

-The Exchange: Jabba the Hutt

-G0-T0: General Takrin...without the stupidty of the "Fear of Force instead of Actual Force" doctrine that led to the construction of the Death Star.

-T3-M4: ...R2-D2. 'Nuff said.

 

And the most important one:

-The Exile: Anankin Skywalker. Both are Chosen People (Anakin would destroy the Sith, Exile would destroy the Force) and are trained in that role by their masters, groomed for that role, and both seem immature or unable to deal with their destiny. Wouldn't be suprised if The Exile would betray his master, Kreia, like Anakin betrayed his master. Also wouldn't be suprised if The Exile would indeed fufil his destiny, just like Anakin did.

 

...What this means is not that TSL is a blantat rip-off of Star Wars, but that ideas are not 'unique'. You may accidently use an idea that has been used over and over. I still love TSL anyway, as while all the ideas they have are NOT really unique (except prehaps "destruction of the force", but then, should I refer you to the "Death-Worship" that Buddhism is usually mistaken for, as well as Nihlism?), they binded all the ideas together, syhnitized it to make it unique and effective as a good product.

 

Yet, it still comes down to personal preference. What you prefers tell more about who you are as a person...rather than the merits of the games in question.

[Allronix]

Frankly, The TSL characters mostly creeped me out. At the end of K1, I was kinda sad to see them all go! On TSL, I wanted to escape them.

[The Source]

KotOR I's success is because it is Star Wars at the core. Everything about it streamed off as Star Wars epic. Hero/Villan fighting to save/take over the gallaxy, and the twists and turns sway through out the game. Epic everything. A complete story without serious holes, and the developers took really good care of what the final product resulted into.

 

KotOR II's success is because of the design upgrade, influence attempt, and robes. When it comes to the story, there where holes everywhere to get me annoyed. I know the game was not intended to be that way, but its how it was released to the public. I have learned to ignore the 'cut content' ranting, for the game is considered complete by Obsidian. Thus, what I bought out of the box is what I got. I didn't get the impression of doom and gloom from the game, for I didn't even connect to the 'Exile' in any way. I really wanted my male character to carry on a Bastila romance with one of the female characters, for that was one of the reasons why I liked KotoR. I didn't get a character revelation, which was out from left field. After enjoying the twists and turns in 'KotOR I', I knew the sequal would have large shoes to fill. I didn't get an epic ending that could compare to KotOR I, but there is a dialouge ending in its place. It would have been nice to see a cutscene, which gives some closure to the story.

 

When it comes to characters in KotoR II, I find Mira, Visas, and the Handmaiden the most interesting. Instead of repeating dialogue enteries, I think it would have been nice to clear out the allready visited options.

 

Personally, I do not like games with cliff-hangers. It makes me feel cheated to put in so many hours, and then to get nothing from all of my effort. Even though ninety percent of the game was finished through dialouge, I truely believe they should have brought better closure. Obsidian should have took advantage of cutscenes. If I wanted to read dialogue about the fate of my companions, I would have picked up a novel from Barnes and Nobel. Since I read a lot of novels, I turn to games for visual entertainment.

 

That is just my opinion, and I hope to read your thoughts.

[Chonan45]

I’m all for Kotor, though TSL has its merits in its story.

 

Kotor may be cliched or based on cliches, but doing so has one great advantage: it can lead to a satisfying conclusion to the story. There is a reason that the same basic plots has been used again and again over millennia.

 

Stories where the authors try to avoid those cliches rarely, if ever, lead to a satisfying end. TSL is no exception to this.

 

Those things aside, I do think that the two games are rather different and a direct comparison isn’t really possible.

 

Kotor pays homage to the OT, and ANH in particular. It is no surprise that we see the same archetypes in the game as was in the movie, nor is it any surprise that Malak is similar to Vader, as is revealed in the behind the scenes section on the Star wars data bank:

 

“Much like the Ebon Hawk/Millenium Falcon we wanted to evoke images of Darth Vader without being considered a carbon copy.”

 

TSL on the other hand is pretty much a rehash of the old game Planescape: Torment. That isn’t a bad thing, but I don’t think that the themes and ideas fit very well with Star Wars. Of course, it isn’t just the ideas/themes and plot that has been transferred, the characters are also derived from that game:

 

Atton = Morte – without the humor. Lack of humor is a general shortcoming of TSL.

Visas = Fall-from-grace

Brianna/Mira = Annah – she is a tiefling (half-human, half-fiend) and has a temper

Mical = Nordom – logical/naive and confused by the world

Nihilus = Transcendent One – only the protagonist can stand up to this one

Sion = Ignus(?) You have to corrode his will in order to defeat him.

Mandalore = Vhalior – an empty suit of armor, because Vahlior doesn’t know he is dead.

Atris = Trias – Good character who really is bad. Would be especially true if they had let Atris become Darth Traya.

Bao-Dur = Dak’kon – capable warrior, with hidden pain.

HK-50s or perhaps G0T0 = Coaxmetal

Kreia = Ravel Puzzlewell – wanted to free the Lady of Pain, potentially destroying all existence doing so, and was cast out. Very likely insane.

 

Just like TSL, all of the NPCs in PS:T are tied to your character’s past. But the TSL versions are really only pale imitations of their PS:T equivalents. Aside from the Exile, only Kreia got some attention from the devs.

 

The ending is very similar. The cut parts of TSL will merely make them more alike.

 

It may be that the ideas and themes used in TSL were somewhat new in the Star Wars setting, but as the above alludes to, they are themselves not new as they were used 5 years before TSL ever appeared. This includes the characters; there are no new characters or original villains in TSL.

 

If you liked TSL, you’ll be in for a real treat if you can get your hands on a copy of Planescape: Torment.

[Jediphile]

Still, I think I might agree with T-Bolt's idea that TSL might have copied parts from ESB.

 

Hey, even I might agree that TSL tries to play on the same sort of and ending we saw in ESB. That's not a bad thing. The plots are very different, though. ESB had a huge bomb to throw at the end by revealing Vader's true identity to Luke. TSL has some revelations, but none of that proportion. Indeed, Kreia goes to great lengths to deny any such plot twists, and it even says so in the developers' notes.

 

There is also the point of 'character backgrounds', or archetypes, that TSL borrowed. Unique for Star Wars, but not really unique when one looks at it.

 

Yes, but that's nothing new. Indeed, IIRC even T.S. Eliot said almost a century ago that there are no new stories to be told, because it's all been done already. I've seen Francis Ford Coppola say that he learned from his father to "always steal from the best," so outside inspiration is no crime as long as it's not a blatant carbon copy. TSL has some new perspectives to add to Star Wars, and in my book that really is more than anyone can ask for right there. My only complaint of the game is that it's cut and unpolished due to the hastened development cycle.

 

Here are character archetypes not in Star Wars but still was 'stolen' and really unique (my views):

-Visas: The Gothic Chic. She wears white, wants to have the Male Exile 'see her', and if you refuse to use Force Sight to see her, she talks about 'meeting in the place where the Force does not meet'. She's scarred emotionally.

 

Agreed. We haven't seen many of those in Star Wars before, though. Frankly, she scared the crap out of me, because I had no idea whether she was on my side or Nihilus' until the confrontation with Nihilus was over. She's also pretty ruthless, even tends a bit more towars LS than DS. That veil is mighty haunting too... It's a simple trick, of course, but there's always scary about someone, if you can't see their eyes.

 

-Handmadien: ANOTHER Manly Chic (into guarding Atris).

 

Yes and no. I agree, but there's more to her than meets the eye. Brianna appears like a very strong character, and naturally is physically. Emotionally, however, she is very immature and highly uncertain of her own position and worth. She'll never admit to that, but it is true, I think. I'm ambivalent about her. On the one hand, she's strong and determined, but on the other hand, she seems to be attracted to the male exile primarily because he reminds her of her father, and so she reaches out to the exile in order to reconnect with her dead father. That does not seem to be a particularly healthy basis for a relationship somehow... In fact, in spite of HK-47 comments to the contrary, the exile's companions seem far more "emotionally challenged" than Revan's did IMHO. Just consider:

 

Disciple: Has never gotten over his padawan past. He's a lost jedi at heart and remains so, unable to resolve his own problems.

 

Handmaiden: Struggles endlessly with the shame of her heritage to prove herself to Atris and her sisters. She reaches out to the male exile to reconnect with her dead parents.

 

Visas: Is lost in the aftermath of the destruction of her homeworld and what Nihilus did to her. After that, she is torn between loyalty to exile and Nihilus and the evil taint Nihilus has left on her and her own basic kindness. That leaves her a bit of a paradox, since while she is dedicated to overthrowing Nihilus, she is also utterly ruthless and unfeeling towards the suffering of others in the pursuit of that goal.

 

Mira: Gosh, where do you even begin? She's not as confused about it all as Visas or Handmaiden, but she certainly has as many skeletons in the closet and demons to exorcise if not more.

 

Bao-Dur: Never could forgive himself for the destruction he wrought at Malachor V and the hatred he felt for the Mandalorians. He deals better with it than most of the companions, however, which is no no small part due to the influence he and the exile have on each other over the issues of Malachor V, which are essential to the plot.

 

Atton: Did some truly horrendous things and is now completely unable to forgive himself for it. He's quite possibly one of the most pathetic and lost individuals I've yet seen in a plot, since there is no hope for redemption - he is unable to achieve it for himself, and he wouldn't trust anyone who told him redemption is possible even for him.

 

-Kreia: Schoolteacher You Love to Hate But Knows She's Always Right...Which Is Why You Hate Her. /Evil Overlord Who Wants to Kill You (True, she does it to help train you, but the "action is still there").

 

Quite. I guess that's why so many people really hate Kreia. Either way, she's a divider - you either love her in some fashion or you hate her totally for this very reason. It seems EVERYBODY has an opinion about her. That's the mark of a character that is highly unlikeable but incredibly well-written. Which is precisely what Kreia is.

 

-Bao-Dur: The Sinful Person who wants to be Redeemed. Unlike all the other bad guys in the story, who mostly gets redeemed before they kick the dust or who refuses to get redeemed, Bao-Dur actually attempts to heal himself, by throwing himself into work.

 

Yes, and he serves an essential function in the story for that reason, since his sin is the same as the exile's - namely the destruction of Malachor V.

 

-Disciple: Carth. He was betrayed by the Jedi Order, just like Carth was betrayed by Saul Karath. Disciple is also a fan of the Republic and serves it quite well (as a spy), just like Carth (who serves as a trooper). Also, just as whiny as Carth. He's really interesting to learn from history...but, well, he's one of the weakest part of TSL. Just like Carth was the weakest part as well.

 

I don't see Mical as being betrayed by the jedi, but more by himself. So I don't think he's anything like Carth. I agree with you otherwise, though. Not sure if I'd call Carth a weak part of KotOR, though...

 

-Darth Sion: Darth Maul, Difference is the fact you can 'break' him at the end.

 

Hmmm, I don't know. I thought he was much better written than Maul. Still not a very well-written character as much as undead force-zombie, but... I mean: "At last we shall reveal ourselves to the jedi - at last we shall have revenge!"

 

-Nihlius: Death Star in pratice (he gobbles up worlds!), Star Forge in sentience (Darth Malak states that the Star Forge has a 'hunger', and it was this hunger that caused the Star Forge to start up the Rakatan Civil War)

 

On the surface, yes, but the mystery that surrounds Nihilus is his very strength dramatically. He's like Dracula - an unrevealed evil that cannot be known. He's like something out of H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos that you cannot know, because doing so would lead to ruin, in which case ignorance is indeed bliss. Even so, the masters seem to give clues to Nihilus' origin that might be played on in K3. But either way, it works dramatically. I was scared out of my wits when I finally had to confront him. It was a crying shame he didn't put up more of a fight

 

-Revan: The Villian who's fighting for something...greater. I'm thinking Johnatan V. Last's intereprtion of Darth Vader here, who believes Darth Vader joined with the Empire in order to heal the galaxy from chaos and ruin. If we accept Johnatan V. Last's view, Revan is Darth Vader, cast in a good light.

 

That's how I see Ravan too. He's basically Vader shaken out of his lingering dark convictions and forced to reexamine his choices.

 

-Canderous: Orignally just a Mandalorian grunt in K1, he morphed into Count Dooku, in charisma and 'tactics'. How else did he manage to gained recurits so quickly to make a huge anti-Republic army? He also has a secret master pulling the strings (Revan).

 

Not so sure about that. After all, he was a leader during the Mandalorian Wars. That's why Jagi is after him in K1.

 

-Atris: Another clone of Count Dooku. According to the Clone Wars and the Revenge of the Sith novelzation (as sourced in Wookipedia), Count Dooku actually saw the Jedi Order as being weak and resigned from the Jedi Order after the Battle of Nabbo. He then decides to go and search for Sith holocrons, so that he would be able to learn more about the Sith, and how best to counter it. Sounds familar? Count Dooku soon realizes that the Dark Side indeed is better and then get recruited by Palpatine. When seen in this light, Kreia converting Atris to the Dark Side makes sense.

 

I think there's an important difference, though - Dooku is well aware of what he is choosing and becoming, while Atris is lured to the dark side even as she thinks she is doing it all for the greater good of the jedi order.

 

-The Exile: Anankin Skywalker. Both are Chosen People (Anakin would destroy the Sith, Exile would destroy the Force) and are trained in that role by their masters, groomed for that role, and both seem immature or unable to deal with their destiny. Wouldn't be suprised if The Exile would betray his master, Kreia, like Anakin betrayed his master. Also wouldn't be suprised if The Exile would indeed fufil his destiny, just like Anakin did.

 

This I'm less certain off. While the exile can be said to have some similarities with Anakin, there are also significant differences. Anakin is clearly the one who must eventually decide the fate of the galaxy in the movie era. In the KotOR games, I would give that role to Revan, who takes it upon himself to stop the true Sith, is led astray, and must eventually choose between the light and the dark in KotOR. The importance here is that the will of the force leaves that choice with Revan and Anakin in each case. Not so with exile. The doomed exile to fall to the dark side at Malachor V. The exile is not a person with destiny thrust upon him, but rather a satanic hero who defies what fate would throw at him, and he upsets the balance of things by his refusal to accept the fate the force has decreed.

[stoffe]

TSL on the other hand is pretty much a rehash of the old game Planescape: Torment. That isn’t a bad thing, but I don’t think that the themes and ideas fit very well with Star Wars. Of course, it isn’t just the ideas/themes and plot that has been transferred, the characters are also derived from that game: (snip)

 

I agree that there are some similarities in ideas between Planescape:Torment and The Sith Lords, and this is not a bad thing. If you have a winning concept why not built upon it? But you'd have to use a figure saw, rubber mallet and all the force you can muster to force the party characters into those templates you listed. Their personalities and motivations are completely different, as are their specialities. The similarities are more in story, mood and presentation of the world in my opinion.

[T-bolt]

Out of the original 9 slots 3 characters are reused and two new slots are added but 6 spaces in the party are filled by superficially similar characters. Female melee fighter, female rogue, male guide, Jedi Mentor, female spell caster, token Wookie.

Sorry meant to say superficially different characters.

 

Except Carth actually recognizes the layout of Malak's Leviathan in KotOR. How is that possible unless it's a republic ship? Besides, the Ravager is a wrecked ship from Malachor V, which was the site of the climactic battle between the Mandalorians and the Republic fleet. It may not have been intended originally, but it is a pretty inescapable conclusion that both the Leviathan and the Ravager were republic ships, even if they look nothing like the Endar Spire or other ships used by the republic in the games.

Have you never heard of intelligence briefings? You can be sure the Rebels knew the layout/capabilities of Star Destroyers, that the Allies had intelligence on Axis vessels or that the Soviets could find every Head on the HMS Ark Royal blindfolded. Carth wasn't a lowly squaddie, he was a pilot and in the Star Wars universe pilots do more than just ferry people around or get in dogfights. The Jedi Civil War didn't start at the moment KotOR started, it had been going on for some time it's hard to believe he hadn't had any contact or knowledge of the Leviathan's ship class before.

 

They why did you go into such detail yourself?

As I said initially I was showing that TSL leans on the movies just as much as KotOR, but it seems fans of TSL while happy to make broad comparrisons between KotOR and the movies feel the need to leap on any and every minute difference in any link made between TSL and the movies. We can trade nitpicks if you want, but we'd be here for ever.

 

KotOR pays hommage to the movies, TSL pays hommage to the movies neither of them are original in that.

 

Now you are confusing classes, roles and archetypes. Carth and Atton may be ranged fighters, but that's just their class - it has no bearing on what sort of characters they are or what role they serve in the game's plot.

Carth and Atton play the same role, I think I demonstrated that, right down to directing the player via comlink at the beginning of the game. Not every character has a part to play in the big scheme of things, but those that do have the same class, and those that don't match class for class. You could take Kreia, Atton, Visas, Mira, Hanarr and the Disciple and exchange them with Jolee, Carth, Bastila, Mission, Zalbaar and Juhani or vice versa and it wouldn't affect the game play beyond a few minor differences in skills.

 

Also, there are no spell casters in Star Wars (which is a good thing) - there are jedi and non-jedi in various classes.

I was putting things into as generic roleplaying classes as I could think of in the hopes people would look beyond the superficially differences of background. Jedi fill the magic user role in the rpg format, though I think they are more clerics, but even in universe the force has been described as magic by various characters over the years. Owen Lars even calls Old Ben a wizard.

 

I disagree completely. Kreia could give Palpatine lessons in being sneaky, and unlike Sidious, she actually has a cause beyond some hollow lust for power.

Palpatine might of been seduced by power once he was chancellor but we don't really know his initial motivations. Palpatine manipulated billions, got a galaxy spanning civilisation to turn on itself and brought the Jedi Order to it's lowest point in thousands of years. His reign including time as supreme chancellor lasts for 30 odd years. Kreia manipulated a handful of people, and was only really successful in getting one person to start using the force again and her scheme was over in a matter of days, weeks at most.

 

And those are classes, not roles. What classes they have is irrelevant to what purpose they serve in the plot.

Exactly that's how it should have been, but every character that was replaced was replaced with a character that was deep down below the surface identical.

 

KotOR referenced the films, but it also set a template which TSL followed almost to the letter. It doesn't matter that the petty details are different, if they weren't they wouldn't be the same game.

 

TSL has some new perspectives to add to Star Wars, and in my book that really is more than anyone can ask for right there. My only complaint of the game is that it's cut and unpolished due to the hastened development cycle.

Except it didn't really, many authors have had characters question the Jedi viewpoint over the years. Jolee was a grey Jedi so it didn't introduce that concept, Kreia seems similar to Vergere. Wounds in the force, it might of been the first to name it as such but the concept goes back to Alderaan, Nihilus was just force drain on legs, Sion just another dead sith lord come back to life. The exile being cut off from the force was just another form of amnesia.

 

It seems EVERYBODY has an opinion about her. That's the mark of a character that is highly unlikeable but incredibly well-written. Which is precisely what Kreia is.

And it can also be the mark of a very poorly written, badly thought out character that so gauls people that they have to complain about it.

[The Architect]

Have you played Fallout, Planescape Torment, Arcanum or even Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines?

 

No. They are all PC games aren’t they? I spend like 4-6 hours on the computer almost every day, putting my footy tips in, getting my sports fix, going on this forum and Obsidian’s, and working on the fifty or so assignments I have to complete in the course that I’m studying. Besides, I’m a console man when it comes to playing games.

 

The only PC games I’ve ever played are Deus Ex, Oblivion (went about 2/3’s through that game and stopped) and Jedi Knight: Academy, with that Jaden Korr guy in it. I only played about half of JKA though. I got bored of it.

[Jediphile]

Have you never heard of intelligence briefings? You can be sure the Rebels knew the layout/capabilities of Star Destroyers, that the Allies had intelligence on Axis vessels or that the Soviets could find every Head on the HMS Ark Royal blindfolded. Carth wasn't a lowly squaddie, he was a pilot and in the Star Wars universe pilots do more than just ferry people around or get in dogfights. The Jedi Civil War didn't start at the moment KotOR started, it had been going on for some time it's hard to believe he hadn't had any contact or knowledge of the Leviathan's ship class before.

 

From the way Carth puts in K1, I never got the impression that he knew it just from intelligence briefings as much as that he knew from having served on the ship under Saul Karath. Regardless, since the ship-type appears over Malachor V and one very similar is used by Nihilus, there is no question than it must be either a Mandalorian or Republic ship design, since they were the only forces involved in the battle of Malachor V.

 

As I said initially I was showing that TSL leans on the movies just as much as KotOR, but it seems fans of TSL while happy to make broad comparrisons between KotOR and the movies feel the need to leap on any and every minute difference in any link made between TSL and the movies. We can trade nitpicks if you want, but we'd be here for ever.

 

TSL needs it more in dialogue and so, because the story itself strays so far from the typically epic all black-and-white/good vs. evil plots of the most Star Wars, unlike KotOR. So in TSL there are references to the movies as a way to let the player know this is Star Wars. The tone and plot is quite different, though.

 

KotOR pays hommage to the movies, TSL pays hommage to the movies neither of them are original in that.

 

Quite differently, though. KotOR pays homage by following the classic formula for how a Star Wars tale is set up. It's a carbon copy in many ways. TSL is not and contents itself to make references while going its own way.

 

Carth and Atton play the same role, I think I demonstrated that, right down to directing the player via comlink at the beginning of the game. Not every character has a part to play in the big scheme of things, but those that do have the same class, and those that don't match class for class. You could take Kreia, Atton, Visas, Mira, Hanarr and the Disciple and exchange them with Jolee, Carth, Bastila, Mission, Zalbaar and Juhani or vice versa and it wouldn't affect the game play beyond a few minor differences in skills.

 

Nah, they just do some of the same things early on. That doesn't give them the same roles. Carth has trust issues. Atton does not, since he trusts nobody (including himself). Carth is heroic and a bit of a leader. Atton is a worm, who will cower at Kreia's feet to hide his secrets, whereas Carth is quite willing to stand up to Bastila. If you want to establish roles, then Carth is the sidekick/brother-type who you share your experiences with - you escape the Endar Spire together, you hide on Taris together as the Sith look for you, you "rescue" Bastila together, etc. Unlike the other characters, Carth is with you all the way. In TSL, the closest character to that role is Bao-Dur, since the exile shares experiences of Malachor V with him.

 

I was putting things into as generic roleplaying classes as I could think of in the hopes people would look beyond the superficially differences of background. Jedi fill the magic user role in the rpg format, though I think they are more clerics, but even in universe the force has been described as magic by various characters over the years. Owen Lars even calls Old Ben a wizard.

 

That doesn't make them comparable, though. I don't think it fits, due to the way things are set up. In D&D, spellcasters are usually "living artillary" attacking the enemy from protected ranks behind the warriors, who fight the enemy hand to hand. That doesn't apply in Star Wars, where jedi are the melee-fighters, while the non-jedi tend to stay in the back and fire their guns as ranged fighters. Even Canderous, who can be a decent melee warrior, seems to prefer a gun to a blade.

 

Palpatine might of been seduced by power once he was chancellor but we don't really know his initial motivations. Palpatine manipulated billions, got a galaxy spanning civilisation to turn on itself and brought the Jedi Order to it's lowest point in thousands of years. His reign including time as supreme chancellor lasts for 30 odd years. Kreia manipulated a handful of people, and was only really successful in getting one person to start using the force again and her scheme was over in a matter of days, weeks at most.

 

Kreia was not trying to sway millions and rule the galaxy.

 

Exactly that's how it should have been, but every character that was replaced was replaced with a character that was deep down below the surface identical.

 

KotOR referenced the films, but it also set a template which TSL followed almost to the letter. It doesn't matter that the petty details are different, if they weren't they wouldn't be the same game.

 

I don't see your point at all. Besides, what function each character serves in TSL is far more optional than it was in KotOR, since you can change most of their classes. Atton is a very different character tactically as a scoundrel from what he is as a jedi sentinel. Bao-Dur has competely different uses depending on whether you leave him as a tech specialist or turn him into a jedi guardian.

 

Sure, TSL builds on the technical sides of KotOR. I find nothing surprising in that. It also expands by adding new classes (prestige classes for the exile, tech specialist for Bao-Dur...), but I don't see that the set-up of characters copy from KotOR at all. So Atton uses guns, so what? Most non-jedi do. That doesn't make him a Carth-copy. It just sets a limit on what function he can serve in a fight, and in these games those are very, very limited.

 

Except it didn't really, many authors have had characters question the Jedi viewpoint over the years. Jolee was a grey Jedi so it didn't introduce that concept, Kreia seems similar to Vergere. Wounds in the force, it might of been the first to name it as such but the concept goes back to Alderaan, Nihilus was just force drain on legs, Sion just another dead sith lord come back to life. The exile being cut off from the force was just another form of amnesia.

 

Well, I respectfully disagree (to rather sizeable proportions).

 

And it can also be the mark of a very poorly written, badly thought out character that so gauls people that they have to complain about it.

 

Yet that is rarely a complaint made of Kreia. People seem to hate her because she's manipulative, arrogant, manipulative, condescending, manipulative, insidious, and - let's not forget - manipulative. Very, very rarely have I seen people complain that she is badly written. Indeed, I've frequently heard that she is about the best written character in Star Wars and perhaps most computer games. Sure, she's a manipulative old hag, but that doesn't mean she's badly written.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Yet that is rarely a complaint made of Kreia. People seem to hate her because she's manipulative, arrogant, manipulative, condescending, manipulative, insidious, and - let's not forget - manipulative. Very, very rarely have I seen people complain that she is badly written. Indeed, I've frequently heard that she is about the best written character in Star Wars and perhaps most computer games. Sure, she's a manipulative old hag, but that doesn't mean she's badly written.

 

i'd have to second this. bad characters are annoying like flies lol. if there is a character that you truly hate, then that is a testament to how well that character is written.

[Jediphile]

^^

 

Yeah. And it's not like I like Kreia as a person, because she's a terrible individual. As I've said before, I admire how well written she is as a character, just as I did with Garak on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine or do with Dr. Baltar on Battlestar Galactica. They're terrible people, but they are so well written (and acted).

[T-bolt]

From the way Carth puts in K1, I never got the impression that he knew it just from intelligence briefings as much as that he knew from having served on the ship under Saul Karath. Regardless, since the ship-type appears over Malachor V and one very similar is used by Nihilus, there is no question than it must be either a Mandalorian or Republic ship design, since they were the only forces involved in the battle of Malachor V.

Ah you keep distracting me from my main point with petty details, yes it was probably a republic ship, so most likely were the sith ships since Revan and the majority of the sith forces were once republic forces. My point originally was the design is much more a rip-off of an ISD than the Ebon Hawk is of the Millenium Falcon. While the original sith capital ships seen in KotOR pay hommage to the classic wedge shape Nihilus' ship is almost a carbon copy.

 

TSL needs it more in dialogue and so, because the story itself strays so far from the typically epic all black-and-white/good vs. evil plots of the most Star Wars, unlike KotOR. So in TSL there are references to the movies as a way to let the player know this is Star Wars.

It's a typical Star Wars plot, sith threatens galaxy jedi must stop them. How more classic good vs evil can you get than that? Being able to fall to the darkside or walk the middle doesn't stop the fact that Nihilus has to be stopped and Kreia is doomed to fail.

 

The tone and plot is quite different, though.

The tone is different, mainly because of the larger number of darkside characters and lack of closure. The plot though is almost identical except for Kreia.

 

Quite differently, though. KotOR pays homage by following the classic formula for how a Star Wars tale is set up. It's a carbon copy in many ways. TSL is not and contents itself to make references while going its own way.

If KotOR follows a forumla from the films then TSL follows KotOR's formula, the only real difference is the plot twist comes the form of the big bad sith lord isn't, and now you've got to go off and face the real menace.

 

You can make a checklist of KotOR's plot and TSL just goes along and fills ticks off the boxes.

 

Nah, they just do some of the same things early on. That doesn't give them the same roles. Carth has trust issues. Atton does not, since he trusts nobody (including himself). Carth is heroic and a bit of a leader. Atton is a worm, who will cower at Kreia's feet to hide his secrets, whereas Carth is quite willing to stand up to Bastila. If you want to establish roles, then Carth is the sidekick/brother-type who you share your experiences with - you escape the Endar Spire together, you hide on Taris together as the Sith look for you, you "rescue" Bastila together, etc. Unlike the other characters, Carth is with you all the way. In TSL, the closest character to that role is Bao-Dur, since the exile shares experiences of Malachor V with him.

You are still looking at the surface and not at the roots. Or put it another way, since most of the character heads from KotOR exist in TSL you could modify Atton, Kreia, Visas, Mira, and Hanharr into Carth, Jolee, Bastila, Mission and Zalbaar respectively. I left out Juhani because I don't remember her likeness anywhere in TSL, and you'd probably have to change losing the hand to a non visible wound unless someone made a one-handed male body. But it wouldn't affect the main plot or the gameplay. You'd have to edit some of the dialogue texts to explain how the characters ended up where they have. Though the edits wouldn't have to be extensive. Carth would be easy, say the Jedi were impressed by his performance while helping the player so they took a closer look at him and realised he was force sensitive. How would he take this news, he's so paranoid about betrayal he'd think he'd been mind wiped as well, which could be enough to send him off on a mental break down and from there it would be a small step for him to take up gambling and start hopping from one bar to another or flying dubious cargoes until he ended up in the cell at Peragus.

 

That doesn't make them comparable, though. I don't think it fits, due to the way things are set up. In D&D, spellcasters are usually "living artillary" attacking the enemy from protected ranks behind the warriors, who fight the enemy hand to hand. That doesn't apply in Star Wars, where jedi are the melee-fighters, while the non-jedi tend to stay in the back and fire their guns as ranged fighters. Even Canderous, who can be a decent melee warrior, seems to prefer a gun to a blade.

Long before someone decided to make an official SW rpg pnp game if you wanted to role play in the SW universe using another type of rpg ruleset you'd adapt the magic-user rules and spells for a Jedi character. I think you'll find that the KotOR games have carried on this tradition and have replaced spells with force powers, even the restrictions on armour and weapons are similar. Sure they use a melee weapon but before KotOR you'd mostly use your lightsaber for blaster deflection which would be rolled as a defensive spell, lightsaber combat would be primarly between two force users so it wouldn't really be the same as wizard vs fighter. Biggest difference is usually magic users are restricted in weapons, and Jedi aren't.

 

Kreia was not trying to sway millions and rule the galaxy.

Nope, she wasn't, she's just a pale imitation who didn't even succeed in her main plot, again at best it could be said she prepared the Exile to help Revan face the unknown threat. This is the great weakness of TSL's story as it's a prequel there was no chance that she would totally be successful in her machinations and there was absolutely no chance that any ending where the player chooses to side with her would be considered cannon because if she succeed in destroying the force it would totally invalidate all the books, comics, films and games that have been set after TSL. On the otherhand in KotOR Malak could of succeeded with out destroying Star Wars. Or the player's darkside endings had a chance to become cannon because for one thing this period in SW history is mostly unwritten and there would always be some champion of the light who'd come along at some point and restore the balance. Just like there's no sense of threat from Nihilus because it's obvious that he's never going to be allowed to devour all life in the galaxy.

[SilentScope001]

TSL on the other hand is pretty much a rehash of the old game Planescape: Torment.

 

There! Finally, a good point. I like TSL and I hope to pick up Planescape, altough it might just be a re-hash of TSL. Maybe they copied it because Planetscape isn't that popular, and they want their story to reach a wider audience. Still, I hope Obisidan won't do some copying again, I like a bit more original thought.

 

Nope, she wasn't, she's just a pale imitation who didn't even succeed in her main plot, again at best it could be said she prepared the Exile to help Revan face the unknown threat.

 

Let me defend Kreia's honor for a mintue...

 

That WAS her main plot.

 

"In you, I see the potential to see the Force die. To turn away from its will. And that is what pleased me."

 

The Force is already dead within The Exile. Why should everyone else be cut off from the Force? You already have one person who is immune to the Will of the Force, you have been proven correct, so why bother attempting to destroy the universe? Let The Exile now run the galaxy as he see fit...

 

To put it more bluntly, The Exile was the only person that willingly gave up the Force. Kreia had to have it stripped from her. Kreia found The Exile and made him became quite powerful.

 

"It is your choice. I hope you would follow Revan, but your path is your own and there is no dishonor in any of those choices. I only hope that you make the choice without regret."

 

In essence, The Exile is Kreia's creation, a sort of Ubermensch or a Messiah-figure for Kreia. Kreia is the only Sith Lord in the KOTOR series who won, NO MATTER WHAT. Malak's Sith Empire was taken over by Revan, but Revan decided to let that Empire die. However, The Exile remains and if it wasn't for Kreia who taught the Exile, The Exile would have been destroyed and Darth Nihilus would have eaten up the whole galaxy.

---

You only learnt that Kreia "planned" on destroying the Force from Atris, once you get her to squeal, and that you have to go and meet up with Kreia to stop her. But if you kill Atris, Kreia, via her holocrons, then reveals that you have to go to Malachor V to complete her "last test". If you refuse, she says:

 

"You have no choice, appericante." before zapping you. No mention of Force destruction here.

 

It is obvious that Kreia lied about wanting to destroy the Force, she merely wanted to test you, and told Atris that she was wanting to destroy the Force to compel a LS Exile to murder Kreia (and thereby pass her last test). I agree with Jediphile that Kreia wanted to destroy the Will of the Force...but I believe the Will was already destroyed, thanks to The Exile refusing to fall to the Dark Side and wounding the Force.

[Coren Saar]

OK, first of all I am a ****in LARGE fun of both games and of the whole Star Wars realm. Now, I'll be straigth: TSL is so much worse than the original. It is just too dark and the atmosphere on almost all planets sucks. It also has too many bugs and the story is really not original - that amnesia **** in the beginning of the game is a weak imitation of KOTOR 1. And, you have to agree, the core of any RPG is it's story. Besides, the characters in KOTOR 1 were much better as were the planets (remember Kashyyyk and Manaan...). Also, there are moments in TSL when the game is kind of boring. KOTOR had these specific details and you can see that the game was developed patiently and that the programers were really devoted to it.

 

I like TSL but KOTOR is a far better game. It just has that Star Wars FEELING...

 

Also, there weren't many improvements in TSL (and I'm talking about gameplay and technical stuff). It is obvious that the people who worked on the game had lack of imagination but at least they should have improved the game's graphics or something. I don't know; I just think TSL isn't worthy to be KOTOR's sequel.

 

I lay all hopes to KOTOR 3 (of course, if they decide to develop it)

 

Coren

[Jediphile]

TSL is so much worse than the original. It is just too dark and the atmosphere on almost all planets sucks.

 

There are those of us who like it for just that reason - it tries something we haven't seen in Star Wars before instead of just recycling the old and overused formula as KotOR did.

 

It also has too many bugs

 

No argument there...

 

and the story is really not original - that amnesia **** in the beginning of the game is a weak imitation of KOTOR 1. And, you have to agree, the core of any RPG is it's story. Besides, the characters in KOTOR 1 were much better as were the planets (remember Kashyyyk and Manaan...).

 

Again, that's entirely down to personal taste. I agree with you on Kashyyyk, since I liked that to, but really, REALLY didn't like Manaan much, and many others didn't either. Taris was better than Pergagus, yes, but Telos was way better than Dantooine was in K1. I hated Tatooine in K1, but Korriban was okay. Recycled Korriban in TSL was a little dull (though the tomb was cool) and Dantooine was now more boring, but both Nar Shaddaa and Onderon/Dxun were pretty cool. Better planets overall? I definitely liked more of them in TSL, where only Peragus and Dantooine were rather boring.

 

As for amnesia, no, the exile is not amnesic. He's in denial about his past though. I agree it hurts the story, though, because it prevents us from identifiying with the character we're supposed to role-play, and that's not good storytelling. And TSL definitely doesn't copy KotOR - it goes so far out of its way to do things different where it can that it really is about to go overboard a few times.

 

Also, there are moments in TSL when the game is kind of boring. KOTOR had these specific details and you can see that the game was developed patiently and that the programers were really devoted to it.

 

TSL was rushed, yes, but that's not the developers' fault. You can blame Lucasarts for that.

 

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html

 

Also, there weren't many improvements in TSL (and I'm talking about gameplay and technical stuff). It is obvious that the people who worked on the game had lack of imagination

 

No, that is quite clearly NOT obvious! TSL may have been rushed by Lucasarts, but its plot was far more complex and deep than KotOR's. That is quite the opposite of unimaginative. If one of the games showed lack of imagination on the part of the devs, then it was KotOR, which just carbon-copied the formula of the original movie and then slapped the cheesiest villain with the most phoney laughter ever in Star Wars on top. Hate TSL all you like, but there was definitely more imagination in the villains there, and in their motives too.

 

but at least they should have improved the game's graphics or something. I don't know; I just think TSL isn't worthy to be KOTOR's sequel.

 

You really need to take the development cycle into consideration. Seriously.

 

TSL was written in less than a year for both pc and xbox. That Obsidian was able to produce a working game in such a short time is a small miracle and no mistake.

[Vaelastraz]

No, that is quite clearly NOT obvious! TSL may have been rushed by Lucasarts, but its plot was far more complex and deep than KotOR's. That is quite the opposite of unimaginative. If one of the games showed lack of imagination on the part of the devs, then it was KotOR, which just carbon-copied the formula of the original movie and then slapped the cheesiest villain with the most phoney laughter ever in Star Wars on top. Hate TSL all you like, but there was definitely more imagination in the villains there, and in their motives too.

 

 

Well he's talking about game play and mechanical stuff. And in that department, Obsidian was dissappointing. I doubt they could create a game compareable to Kotor from scratch. I obviously don't know though, is there a game which they created on their own?

 

Oh and I wouldn't call Malak cheesy. In fact, he won a poll here I think, being the best sithlord. While I admit that the english voice is somewhat weird, the german one is totally awesome.

 

And motives of villains in TSL were imaginative? You're right with Kreia. But not with Nihilus and Sion.

[EnIgmA_XX]

I agree, Sion and Nihilus had NO backstory. at all. i'm okay if there's none with Nihilus, because he's supposed to be unknown, but they need backstory for Sion.

 

It is just too dark and the atmosphere on almost all planets sucks. It also has too many bugs and the story is really not original - that amnesia **** in the beginning of the game is a weak imitation of KOTOR 1. And, you have to agree, the core of any RPG is it's story. Besides, the characters in KOTOR 1 were much better as were the planets (remember Kashyyyk and Manaan...). Also, there are moments in TSL when the game is kind of boring. KOTOR had these specific details and you can see that the game was developed patiently and that the programers were really devoted to it.

 

Coren, i'd disagree with you with some of these points. as said before, "too dark" is just an opinion. the story is original for Star Wars; in fact it's the most original thing i've seem in Star Wars that i can remember. there was definitely no amnesia. where did you get the impression of that? i also disagree that the chars in KOTOR 1 were better. they were both great in my opinion.

 

where i would agree with you is in the atmosphere of the game. KOTOR 1 was awesome because of the immersion. every planet that you went to, and every moment of the game felt EPIC, from Taris all the way to the final battle of the Star Forge. you can tell that Bioware worked long and hard to make the game as good as this. on the other hand, the atmosphere in the tsl planets was HORRID. the only places that even rivaled KOTOR 1's (in terms of the atmosphere and immersion) are:

 

Telos resoration zone and battle on Telos

 

Dxun

 

Korriban. actually, i thought the atmosphere in tsl's Korriban was better than KOTOR's. the fact that it's deserted freaked me out, and truly felt like a sith planet.

 

Citadel station and Nar Shadda were really bad. they both felt totally bland and had no personality whatsoever. Nar Shadda, especially is disappointing.

 

keep in mind that i still like KOTOR and TSL equally, i just thought that the atmosphere in KOTOR was better.

[T-bolt]

Let me defend Kreia's honor for a mintue...

 

That WAS her main plot.

 

"In you, I see the potential to see the Force die. To turn away from its will. And that is what pleased me."

 

The Force is already dead within The Exile. Why should everyone else be cut off from the Force? You already have one person who is immune to the Will of the Force, you have been proven correct, so why bother attempting to destroy the universe? Let The Exile now run the galaxy as he see fit...

 

To put it more bluntly, The Exile was the only person that willingly gave up the Force. Kreia had to have it stripped from her. Kreia found The Exile and made him became quite powerful.

 

"It is your choice. I hope you would follow Revan, but your path is your own and there is no dishonor in any of those choices. I only hope that you make the choice without regret."

 

In essence, The Exile is Kreia's creation, a sort of Ubermensch or a Messiah-figure for Kreia. Kreia is the only Sith Lord in the KOTOR series who won, NO MATTER WHAT. Malak's Sith Empire was taken over by Revan, but Revan decided to let that Empire die. However, The Exile remains and if it wasn't for Kreia who taught the Exile, The Exile would have been destroyed and Darth Nihilus would have eaten up the whole galaxy.

---

You only learnt that Kreia "planned" on destroying the Force from Atris, once you get her to squeal, and that you have to go and meet up with Kreia to stop her. But if you kill Atris, Kreia, via her holocrons, then reveals that you have to go to Malachor V to complete her "last test". If you refuse, she says:

 

"You have no choice, appericante." before zapping you. No mention of Force destruction here.

 

It is obvious that Kreia lied about wanting to destroy the Force, she merely wanted to test you, and told Atris that she was wanting to destroy the Force to compel a LS Exile to murder Kreia (and thereby pass her last test). I agree with Jediphile that Kreia wanted to destroy the Will of the Force...but I believe the Will was already destroyed, thanks to The Exile refusing to fall to the Dark Side and wounding the Force.

 

If the will of the force was already destroyed how come they are still claiming to follow it in the prequel era and beyond? As for what Kreia says at the end, given how she's played you for a fool through out the game, Atris could be telling the truth and Kreia is just making one last attempt to mess with your mind knowing that you've beaten her. As for her wanting to build you up to destroy Nihilus, as I said there's no way Nihilus was ever a real threat given that the game is a prequel. If the Exile didn't stop him someone else or something else would have.

 

At every turn you can renounce her teachings, at the end you can refuse to kill her and try to redeem her. You might still have to kill her in self-defence but that's a big difference to murder. Right from the first time my character met Kreia I was telling her to shut up, both as light side and dark side I couldn't agree with anything she said. As light side I kept trying to redeem her though, I don't think I ever managed to get any influence with her. I found her so poorly written and annoying, not annoying because she was a manipulative old hag but annoying because it was obvious she was manipulating my character and I couldn't do anything about it. In a book or film working out/finding out who the bad guy is at the start doesn't matter but in an interactive game it's a terriblly restrictive.

 

This is one of the game's major weak points by putting in your party this character they've limited the player to the simplest of superficial choices.

 

As to whether she's succeeded in her plans we'll only really know if the Exile is mentioned in KotOR3. But no way can she be compared to Palpatine other than as a poor imitation. Palpatine won, 3 decades of power isn't losing, and he was overthrown by his apprentice which is the sith way. The fact that Vader cast him down for all the wrong (sith) reasons and returned to the lightside doesn't detract from Palpatine's accomplishments.

 

No, that is quite clearly NOT obvious! TSL may have been rushed by Lucasarts, but its plot was far more complex and deep than KotOR's. That is quite the opposite of unimaginative. If one of the games showed lack of imagination on the part of the devs, then it was KotOR, which just carbon-copied the formula of the original movie and then slapped the cheesiest villain with the most phoney laughter ever in Star Wars on top. Hate TSL all you like, but there was definitely more imagination in the villains there, and in their motives too.

 

TSL isn't more complex and deep, more convoluted but other than Kreia's manipulations it's pretty much the same game only the names have been changed.

 

Player character is deprived of the force before the game starts.

 

Starts on a ship which has been attacked. TSL might of made this optional but KotOR you get to keep the experience and loot.

 

After escaping the attack you awaken trapped on a world/asteroid until you can obtain a ship.

 

After obtaining a ship you've got a turret minigame.

 

Your first destination is locked.

 

Similar amount of planets which can be visited and similar reason to visit them all. 5 star maps/Jedi Masters.

 

Jedi Council are hiding something about your background.

 

A sith lord threatens the galaxy.

 

At some point the player will be captured and held prisoner on board a starship, you will then have to control one of the other characters to free them.

 

You will be attacked by a female agent of the sith who you can bring back to the light side.

 

The idea of having to impress Mandalore, by completing a choice of quests, before he'll take you to the next location is pretty much a copy of gaining prestige on Korriban to reach the star map.

 

Nihilus feeding of the force and Sion regenerating, Malak draining the captives on the Starforge to regenerate.

 

LS endings mirror the endings of the original trilogy.

 

Will the KotOR3 light side ending have parties on several worlds and the corpse of Revan in armour burned on a bonfire? Hmm?

 

TSL was rushed, yes, but that's not the developers' fault. You can blame Lucasarts for that.

 

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html

Development times for games are getting shorter and shorter, Lucas Arts aren't alone in pushing developers to get the games out earlier, especially in time for xmas. The article says LA are notorius for pushing developers so then there's no one to blame for the state of the game than Obsidian. They knew what they were getting into when they signed the contract, Feargus Urquhart and Chris Avellone weren't new to the industry. In fact it's not the first time they've been in this situation (Fallout 2) and produced similar results.

 

Coren, i'd disagree with you with some of these points. as said before, "too dark" is just an opinion. the story is original for Star Wars; in fact it's the most original thing i've seem in Star Wars that i can remember. there was definitely no amnesia. where did you get the impression of that?

The Exile could be said to be a partial amnesiac, at one point in training with Kreia on the Ebon Hawk you get to ask if you were always able to do that. Which implies the Exile had 'forgotten' how by being cut off from the force. Semantics aside it boils down to the same, a plot device to deprive the player of their force powers so they don't start off too powerful. Will KotOR3 rehash this again?

 

The story might of been the most original 'you've seen' but the elements are not original to Star Wars.

[SilentScope001]

If the will of the force was already destroyed how come they are still claiming to follow it in the prequel era and beyond?

 

Because the will of the Force is destroyed in the Exile. It doesn't need to be destroyed for everyone else.

 

As for what Kreia says at the end, given how she's played you for a fool through out the game, Atris could be telling the truth and Kreia is just making one last attempt to mess with your mind knowing that you've beaten her.

 

"When your training is complete, there will be no more shadows."-Kreia

 

Kreia admits that she is playing with your mind, but when you finally battle her at Malachor, she admits the truth. The training is over, the shadows are pullen off.

 

As for her wanting to build you up to destroy Nihilus, as I said there's no way Nihilus was ever a real threat given that the game is a prequel. If the Exile didn't stop him someone else or something else would have.

 

...

 

Have you ever considered that prehaps if the prequel wasn't made, but Nihlius still existed, Nihilus WOULD have won and eaten up the whole universe? The prequel invented Nihlius, but they created Exile to get rid of Nihilus. If Nihilus existed, but the Exile did not, well, Nihilus would have eaten up everything.

 

It sounds absurd to think someone else could defeat Nihilus. Whom? His power was that he can suck up people's Force. Revan is a Force User, so he can be eaten. Everyone is connected to the Force, so they can be eaten. The only thing that could battle him is a human who IS NOT CONNECTED to the Force. That is The Exile.

 

At every turn you can renounce her teachings, at the end you can refuse to kill her and try to redeem her. You might still have to kill her in self-defence but that's a big difference to murder.

 

"I will not fight you."

 

"Then, my appericante, you will break, and then you will die."

 

 

Right from the first time my character met Kreia I was telling her to shut up, both as light side and dark side I couldn't agree with anything she said. As light side I kept trying to redeem her though, I don't think I ever managed to get any influence with her.

 

Hm. Hatred of Kreia is something to be noted. I can understand that she can be hated, and building a game based off her is terrible indeed. It's putting your eggs in one basket. In the end, I felt the same with Malak as well, hating the guy for being an idiot.

 

I do like Kreia, because, since the villian is in your party, you can learn what the villian believes.

 

I found her so poorly written and annoying, not annoying because she was a manipulative old hag but annoying because it was obvious she was manipulating my character and I couldn't do anything about it. In a book or film working out/finding out who the bad guy is at the start doesn't matter but in an interactive game it's a terriblly restrictive.

 

Well, is she the bad guy? She did do everything to help you grow. She saved you from the Jedi Masters. She did help you defeat Nihilus. She awakened you to your potential, revealed the true enemy, the True Sith. That's the thing that is a twist: Kreia may not be evil after all.

 

As to whether she's succeeded in her plans we'll only really know if the Exile is mentioned in KotOR3. But no way can she be compared to Palpatine other than as a poor imitation. Palpatine won, 3 decades of power isn't losing, and he was overthrown by his apprentice which is the sith way. The fact that Vader cast him down for all the wrong (sith) reasons and returned to the lightside doesn't detract from Palpatine's accomplishments.

 

Palpatine was a leader. Kreia was not. Palpatine was able to get people to follow him, Kreia was a person who had to manlipuate others to get them to obey her.

 

Palpatine wanted to rule the galaxy, and guess what? After he ruled the galaxy, he got destroyed in the end. And Vader rejecting his teachings does distract from Palpatine's purpose.

 

But, Kreia? Kreia wanted to save the galaxy from the Force. She's not interested in conquest, she wants to save people in her own twisted way. She taught The Exile, and gave him training. And Kreia used the Exile to get him to gather the Lost Jedi, possibly to reform the Jedi Order. Kreia also used Revan to help create the Sith Empire, showcasing that she does know how politics work. Kreia is just a mover of the galaxy as Palpatine was, only more so.

 

Remember, Kreia wanted to be killed by The Exile.

 

Kreia got some of us to actually care for her, to actually listen to her and believe in some of her teachings. Palpatine could be admired, but he was ruined in Ep. 3...and nobody cared about "absolute power".

---

But, I realize that we will have to agree to disagree. I would like for you not to reply to this post, please, because I understand you got points and I got points. All I wanted to know was what you believe, and that is all that matters.

[The Source]

Personally, I am beginning to think that the game was so incomplete, and it was the cause of tremendous confussion. Unlike how I felt about Revan, I never once felt anything for the Exile or his/her companions. In KotOR I, I had a connection with Bastila. I felt her loss, and it help drive me to save her. In KotOR II, I didn't feel for any of the characters, and I could careless about their existance. The pc had no emotional connections with his teammates in KotOR II. Once Kreia entered her hammer onto the nail, "You are an echo.", the game's end reflected how I felt about it in general. The game was one big empty echo of nothing. Your character didn't save the world, nor did he/she end up rulling the galaxy. I felt no satisfaction for killing the Jedi Masters, nor did I feel vindicated for killing Kreia. I didn't think Justice was served in any way. There was no sense of hope or dispear. I felt absolutely nothing for any of the characters. They should have fleshed them out. Even though your pc sided with the Masters, they turned against you even though they supported you. Grr... That makes no sense at all. Not to mention GoTo's plot. "I want you to save the Republic."...? What?! You went through all that fighting for Goto to say, "I want you to save the Republic, but I don't want you to kill the Sith.".. How dum was that. There was so much meaningless banter in the game, which made absolutely no sense at all. People can add stuff in with speculation, and try to connect the dots all they want. Personally, at the end of the day, I believe that KotOR II is far inferior than KotOR I.

 

Its kind of funny. I have more people offline agree with me than online. I guess that is the crime for my interpretation of KotOR II.

[T-bolt]

But, I realize that we will have to agree to disagree. I would like for you not to reply to this post, please, because I understand you got points and I got points. All I wanted to know was what you believe, and that is all that matters.

So you are allowed your say but I'm not allowed mine?

 

"When your training is complete, there will be no more shadows."-Kreia

 

Kreia admits that she is playing with your mind, but when you finally battle her at Malachor, she admits the truth. The training is over, the shadows are pullen off.

She admits the truth or starts lying? She's still manipulating you so unless KotOR 3 clarifies things, we'll never know.

 

Have you ever considered that prehaps if the prequel wasn't made, but Nihlius still existed, Nihilus WOULD have won and eaten up the whole universe? The prequel invented Nihlius, but they created Exile to get rid of Nihilus. If Nihilus existed, but the Exile did not, well, Nihilus would have eaten up everything.

Er? No because obviously he didn't. This is one of the major weak points of the plot.

 

It sounds absurd to think someone else could defeat Nihilus. Whom? His power was that he can suck up people's Force. Revan is a Force User, so he can be eaten. Everyone is connected to the Force, so they can be eaten. The only thing that could battle him is a human who IS NOT CONNECTED to the Force. That is The Exile.

Or a droid army, navcom failure exiting his ship from hyperspace in the middle of a planet or there's always the Yuuzhan Vong, they were cut off from the force as well. Most likely he'd destroy himself, he'd lose control of his hunger feed off his crew and strand himself in the middle of nowhere and then starve to death.

 

I do like Kreia, because, since the villian is in your party, you can learn what the villian believes..

You can learn what the villain is thinking from cutscenes and the final confrontation they don't have to be in your party.

 

Well, is she the bad guy? She did do everything to help you grow. She saved you from the Jedi Masters. She did help you defeat Nihilus. She awakened you to your potential, revealed the true enemy, the True Sith. That's the thing that is a twist: Kreia may not be evil after all.

She believed the force was the true enemy, destroying it would destroy the true threat. Besides you were only in danger from the Jedi because she'd manipulated the Exile into their path. If someone intentionally pushes you in front of a car and then pulls you to safety are they deserving of your thanks?

 

Palpatine wanted to rule the galaxy, and guess what? After he ruled the galaxy, he got destroyed in the end. And Vader rejecting his teachings does distract from Palpatine's purpose.

 

But, Kreia? Kreia wanted to save the galaxy from the Force. She's not interested in conquest, she wants to save people in her own twisted way. She taught The Exile, and gave him training. And Kreia used the Exile to get him to gather the Lost Jedi, possibly to reform the Jedi Order. Kreia also used Revan to help create the Sith Empire, showcasing that she does know how politics work. Kreia is just a mover of the galaxy as Palpatine was, only more so.

 

Remember, Kreia wanted to be killed by The Exile.

 

Kreia got some of us to actually care for her, to actually listen to her and believe in some of her teachings. Palpatine could be admired, but he was ruined in Ep. 3...and nobody cared about "absolute power".

Palpatine's true motivations aren't known yet, given the depth his machinations extend to in the EU it's hard to believe his only aims were to rule and to bring down the Jedi. It's possible Palpatine wanted to save people in 'his own twisted way' as well, from the corruption of the Republic, from the interference of the Jedi and in the Outbound flight books he knows of the Yuuzhan Vong or is at least aware of their existence/threat and by destroying the expedition he prevents them from becoming aware of the Republic as well as destroying a large number of Jedi in one go.

 

As for no one caring about absolute power, that's a bit of a sweeping statement, how do you know?

 

Kreia's teachings seem a mix of sith philosophy and the potentium view of the force with her own madness and bitterness thrown in. She's the only one that sees the force itself as a threat. The Jedi blamed her for Revan's fall to the Darkside, that's not the same as using Revan to create the sith empire. She's blamed and leaves the Jedi order to follow Revan and become a sith, then she's cast out from the sith and develops her theory about the force. She manipulates maybe a dozen people, no way does she move the galaxy more than Palpatine.

[SilentScope001]

So you are allowed your say but I'm not allowed mine?

 

I was trying a new tactic to get myself out of a flame war if it is occuring. I do not wish to offend anyone. It seems that I failed in both regards.

 

I hate flame wars, and I realized I blundered into one. You are allowed to say, I just requested that you do not, because I see that when people leave an argument, and someone else responds, they have no free will and get compelled to come back and argue.

 

I understand your point, and I understand what you want to say.

 

I will not respond to the rest of your points, because I will wish to disengage myself from the conflict. Let just say I understand what you say.

 

Its kind of funny. I have more people offline agree with me than online. I guess that is the crime for my interpretation of KotOR II.

 

Well, why not have 2 intepertions? The one interpertion of K2 being a good storyline and another one of K2 being a bad game? Because if I interpert K2 of being a stupid game, I would not have fun with playing K2, which is missing the point.

 

Regardless, I'll repeat what I say before: What you feel on K1 and TSL tells more about your personality rather than wheter the game is actually good or not.

[The Architect]

It's a typical Star Wars plot, sith threatens galaxy jedi must stop them. How more classic good vs evil can you get than that? Being able to fall to the darkside or walk the middle doesn't stop the fact that Nihilus has to be stopped and Kreia is doomed to fail.

 

No, it’s not a typical Star Wars plot. The Sith aren’t trying to take over the galaxy (like in KotOR). Nihilus is an inhuman void in the force who won’t stop until he devours all life in the galaxy, Sion is a Sith Lord who can regenerate who cares nothing about the Republic, he only wishes to kill every Jedi in existence, and Kreia is trying to take revenge against the Sith and the Jedi who cast her out, prove to them that her teachings are “right” through a “successful” student (the Exile) and destroy the will of the force.

 

There are barely any Jedi left, the Sith in TSL fight with stealth and guile, they drain the force from the Jedi to kill them, there are barely any Jedi left, so unlike in KotOR, the Exile and his/her companions have to stop the Sith themselves, and not necessarily to become a hero or the next big villain (like in KotOR) but because someone like Nihilus and his Sith assassins CANNOT be ignored, considering what they do.

 

Clearly it is different than KotOR. Sure, if TSL was about a normal “Malak” type clichéd Sith Lord named Darth Nihilus and his apprentice Darth Sion trying to “finish off what Malak started” (and they were in possession of some type of super weapon), defeat the Jedi and the Republic, conquer the galaxy and you were the Revan type guy/woman with a huge destiny who goes on adventure with a group of companions to “find the weapon”, defeat the bad guys and blow up/take control of the super weapon, then I’d agree with you that TSL is just as big of a rip-off of the OT as KotOR is, but it’s not. The stories are DIFFERENT.

 

This is the great weakness of TSL's story as it's a prequel there was no chance that she would totally be successful in her machinations and there was absolutely no chance that any ending where the player chooses to side with her would be considered cannon because if she succeed in destroying the force it would totally invalidate all the books, comics, films and games that have been set after TSL. On the otherhand in KotOR Malak could of succeeded with out destroying Star Wars. Or the player's darkside endings had a chance to become cannon because for one thing this period in SW history is mostly unwritten and there would always be some champion of the light who'd come along at some point and restore the balance. Just like there's no sense of threat from Nihilus because it's obvious that he's never going to be allowed to devour all life in the galaxy.

 

Yes, but who’s to say that the Exile won’t be a big threat (as DS) without destroying canon? By the way, there NEVER really was any sense of threat from Malak in KotOR, because of the predictable and OT rip-off nature of the plot, and the fact that the PC NEVER LOSES IN THE END.

 

TSL isn't more complex and deep, more convoluted but other than Kreia's manipulations it's pretty much the same game only the names have been changed.

 

1. Player character is deprived of the force before the game starts.

 

2. Starts on a ship which has been attacked. TSL might of made this optional but KotOR you get to keep the experience and loot.

 

3. After escaping the attack you awaken trapped on a world/asteroid until you can obtain a ship.

 

4. After obtaining a ship you've got a turret minigame.

 

5. Your first destination is locked.

 

6. Similar amount of planets which can be visited and similar reason to visit them all. 5 star maps/Jedi Masters.

 

7. Jedi Council are hiding something about your background.

 

8. A sith lord threatens the galaxy.

 

9. At some point the player will be captured and held prisoner on board a starship, you will then have to control one of the other characters to free them.

 

10. You will be attacked by a female agent of the sith who you can bring back to the light side.

 

11. The idea of having to impress Mandalore, by completing a choice of quests, before he'll take you to the next location is pretty much a copy of gaining prestige on Korriban to reach the star map.

 

12. Nihilus feeding of the force and Sion regenerating, Malak draining the captives on the Starforge to regenerate.

 

13. LS endings mirror the endings of the original trilogy.

 

Umm…no.

 

1. NOT because he/she was an ex-Dark Lord of the Sith though. Besides, “you used the force before, but lost your connection to it because….” Is used to explain why your character rapidly increases their connection in the force during the game.

 

2. That is a MINOR cliché though. It has to have SOME Star Wars feel.

 

3. You didn’t end up on a Taris-like planet though. Oh wait….that would have been better than Peborus though.

 

4. The difference is; you’re not being chased by Sith fighters in space in the turret mini-game.

 

5 and 6. SO? That’s just part of maintaining a “sequel feel” to the game. That isn’t copying from the plot. Trying to find the Jedi Masters (FOR DIFFERENT REASONS) is much more interesting than finding an item that you can’t interact with. All you do is just click or press the button, and that’s it.

 

7. Yes, but they’re not hiding the fact that you’re an ex-Dark Lord of the Sith are they?

 

8. It is STAR WARS though, and the Sith Lords threatening the galaxy aren't the clichéd Malak type.

 

9. You aren’t being held prisoner by the Sith are you, nor do you discover some massive secret during your escape, do you?

 

10. So? Technically you could bring almost ANYONE you fight back to the LS, if the game allows you to. It’s not like KotOR was the original one in the “fight a Sith and redeem them” concept, was it?

 

11. WHAT THE HELL? They are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCENARIOS. They have to give the player side-quests and so on to maintain the RPG FEEL of the game and make the game longer!

 

By this illogical rationale, you might as well just argue that TSL is a rip-off of KotOR because it’s an RPG where you can choose between the LS and the DS. What would you prefer, NO SIDE-QUESTS AT ALL? And from a plot perspective, it makes sense that you’d have to “prove yourself worthy” to the Mandalorians.

 

12. There NEVER has been an inhuman void in the force that has the potential to devour all life, nor has there ever been a Sith Lord who can regenerate without having to drain any captives in Star Wars.

 

13. Most likely because TSL is supposed to be what ESB was to the OT!

 

I agree, Sion and Nihilus had NO backstory. at all. i'm okay if there's none with Nihilus, because he's supposed to be unknown, but they need backstory for Sion.

 

What the hell is it with this fixation with back-story? It’s quite clear that Sion was a Sith who fought in the Jedi Civil War, hated the Jedi with a passion, survived the civil war on Korriban that took place after KotOR and fled to Malachor V. When he learned to regenerate, I don’t know.

 

Just how on earth do you propose that you could’ve learnt more about Sion’s back-story in TSL? From Kreia? I learnt enough from her about Sion. You don’t NEED to know the details. What, were you expecting Sion to walk up to you on Malachor V with a pot of tea and say “You, exile; before I kill you, I wish to sit down with you and tell you about myself.”?

 

Personally, I am beginning to think that the game was so incomplete, and it was the cause of tremendous confussion. Unlike how I felt about Revan, I never once felt anything for the Exile or his/her companions. In KotOR I, I had a connection with Bastila. I felt her loss, and it help drive me to save her. In KotOR II, I didn't feel for any of the characters, and I could careless about their existance.

 

Would this have anything to do with the fact that most of TSL’s companions aren’t care-bear LS hippies, like in KotOR?

 

The pc had no emotional connections with his teammates in KotOR II. Once Kreia entered her hammer onto the nail, "You are an echo.", the game's end reflected how I felt about it in general. The game was one big empty echo of nothing.

 

What the hell? Are you sure you played TSL or what?

 

Your character didn't save the world, nor did he/she end up rulling the galaxy.

 

No, your character didn’t save the world; he/she SAVED THE GALAXY, by stopping Darth Nihilus, who most likely would’ve devoured ALL LIFE IN THE GALAXY! And so what about not ruling the galaxy. That’s such a cliché with DS’ders in SW it’s not funny.

 

I felt no satisfaction for killing the Jedi Masters, nor did I feel vindicated for killing Kreia. I didn't think Justice was served in any way. There was no sense of hope or dispear. I felt absolutely nothing for any of the characters.

 

Yeah, for you that was the case, but not necessarily for everyone else.

 

They should have fleshed them out.

 

Many people are under this illusion that KotOR had deep characters. It seems that many people love this childish “I ask and you tell” concept of learning about a character. What, so just because most of the characters in TSL didn’t spoon feed you their back-stories like in KotOR, suddenly they are not deep and interesting?

 

I found Jolee to be the only deep character in KotOR. HK-47 was funny and well-written, but the rest sucked IMO. All Bastila does is whine about the dark side and tell you a bit about her past. How does that make her a deep character?

 

All Carth does is whine about his trust issues and tell you a bit about his past. How does that make him a deep character? Mission is just a clichéd daring scoundrel with an attitude, a “street rat punk”.

 

Zaalbar says ALMOST NOTHING to you, and is boring as hell, T3-M4 is just an R2-D2 rip-off, all Canderous does is tell stories about his beloved people and act like a brutish thug, how does that make him a deep character?

 

And Juhani? She’s pathetic. She’s all “I’m DS, leave me alone blah blah blah” and a few minutes later, after defeating her and saying a few simple lines to her, she’s all goodie goodie again. Huh?

 

Even though your pc sided with the Masters, they turned against you even though they supported you. Grr... That makes no sense at all.

 

They just decided that cutting you off from the force was the ONLY and SAFEST option to do in dealing with your potentially dangerous wound. They had TIME to think about this and change their minds. It’s not like you rocked up on Dantooine the same time they did when they were together.

 

Not to mention GoTo's plot. "I want you to save the Republic."...? What?! You went through all that fighting for Goto to say, "I want you to save the Republic, but I don't want you to kill the Sith.".. How dum was that.

 

What? No, sending all those bounty hunters after you was his bizarre way of getting your attention. He didn’t see any other way. He just assumed that you could handle them and wouldn’t have been killed by them, and he was right.

 

And he doesn’t want you to not stop the Sith. Where the hell did you get that from? He said to you that he doesn’t care if you side with the Jedi or the Sith, he just wanted you to choose a side and end the religious war between them, because doing so would be in the best interests of the Republic.

 

There was so much meaningless banter in the game, which made absolutely no sense at all.

 

Like what? Have you ever considered the fact that perhaps what you interpreted as meaningless banter was actually material that you failed to comprehend?

 

 

We’re all entitled to our own opinions at the end of the day. Still, I don’t understand you non-TSL fans though. I love the way they told MOST of the story. I don’t want to be spoon fed everything and told everything over and over again like a kid, like how it was done in KotOR.

 

What did KotOR have that TSL didn't?

[EnIgmA_XX]

What the hell is it with this fixation with back-story? It’s quite clear that Sion was a Sith who fought in the Jedi Civil War, hated the Jedi with a passion, survived the civil war on Korriban that took place after KotOR and fled to Malachor V. When he learned to regenerate, I don’t know.

 

Just how on earth do you propose that you could’ve learnt more about Sion’s back-story in TSL? From Kreia? I learnt enough from her about Sion. You don’t NEED to know the details. What, were you expecting Sion to walk up to you on Malachor V with a pot of tea and say “You, exile; before I kill you, I wish to sit down with you and tell you about myself.”?

 

I don't think that backstory was necesary to the plot. of course the story went along fine without having to know anything about Sion. the problem i have is that the sith lords could have been so much more. i don't expect to have Sion just walk up to you and tell you about him before you fight, i'd just be nice and would make a overall character better if we knew for example, how he got all those cuts and why he hates the jedi so much. the character has a lot of potential, and i'm just somewhat disappointed that the devs didn't use it, that's all.

 

The Exile could be said to be a partial amnesiac, at one point in training with Kreia on the Ebon Hawk you get to ask if you were always able to do that. Which implies the Exile had 'forgotten' how by being cut off from the force. Semantics aside it boils down to the same, a plot device to deprive the player of their force powers so they don't start off too powerful. Will KotOR3 rehash this again?

 

The story might of been the most original 'you've seen' but the elements are not original to Star Wars.

 

The exile has only forgotten about the force, while Revan has forgotten everything down to who he/she is. that makes it different. i think you're viewing the amnesia thing from a gameplay perspective, and i am viewing it on a plot and story perspective. for gameplay, the exile was able to start using the force again almost right away, while Revan had to completely undergo training again.

 

I'm definitely not above being proved wrong, but i think that it would help if you actually gave me proof that this is not an original Star Wars idea, rather than just saying that i'm wrong and that's it.

[T-bolt]

No, it’s not a typical Star Wars plot. The Sith aren’t trying to take over the galaxy (like in KotOR). Nihilus is an inhuman void in the force who won’t stop until he devours all life in the galaxy, Sion is a Sith Lord who can regenerate who cares nothing about the Republic, he only wishes to kill every Jedi in existence, and Kreia is trying to take revenge against the Sith and the Jedi who cast her out, prove to them that her teachings are “right” through a “successful” student (the Exile) and destroy the will of the force.

Palpatine wouldn't stop until he'd control the galaxy, the sith have always wanted to destroy the Jedi and Kreia is very sith in wanting revenge. Nihilus' hunger can be likened to Palpatine's ambition, and regeneration is just a design ploy it doesn't make Sion anything special.

 

There are barely any Jedi left, the Sith in TSL fight with stealth and guile, they drain the force from the Jedi to kill them, there are barely any Jedi left, so unlike in KotOR, the Exile and his/her companions have to stop the Sith themselves, and not necessarily to become a hero or the next big villain (like in KotOR) but because someone like Nihilus and his Sith assassins CANNOT be ignored, considering what they do.

There were barely any Jedi left leaving Luke and the others had to fight and over throw Sidious and Vader.

 

Clearly it is different than KotOR. Sure, if TSL was about a normal “Malak” type clichéd Sith Lord named Darth Nihilus and his apprentice Darth Sion trying to “finish off what Malak started” (and they were in possession of some type of super weapon), defeat the Jedi and the Republic, conquer the galaxy and you were the Revan type guy/woman with a huge destiny who goes on adventure with a group of companions to “find the weapon”, defeat the bad guys and blow up/take control of the super weapon, then I’d agree with you that TSL is just as big of a rip-off of the OT as KotOR is, but it’s not. The stories are DIFFERENT.

Minor details, at the heart of it it's still good vs evil, Jedi vs Sith. There's more to Star Wars than just sith, since KotOR was all about the sith it would of been a change of pace to have a different threat.

 

Yes, but who’s to say that the Exile won’t be a big threat (as DS) without destroying canon? By the way, there NEVER really was any sense of threat from Malak in KotOR, because of the predictable and OT rip-off nature of the plot, and the fact that the PC NEVER LOSES IN THE END.

 

To quote you

Yeah, it was like that for you, but not me, and not necessarily everyone else either.

How does the PC lose in the end of TSL? The PC had the potential to lose in the end of KotOR, if Malak had won it would of only been temporary. Even if his rule had been for several decades it wouldn't ruin the history of the GFFA. Eventually a new champion would of overthrown him or his followers would of turned on him allowing the Republic to come back fighting. But TSL's plots were so black and white, stop the super sith before he destroys all life. Stop Sion before he destroys the Jedi, stop Kreia before she destroys the force. Since none of this can be allowed to happen there's no possible alternate that can be imagined without contradicting the movies then how can there be any sense of threat from these three?

 

By this illogical rationale, you might as well just argue that TSL is a rip-off of KotOR because it’s an RPG where you can choose between the LS and the DS. What would you prefer, NO SIDE-QUESTS AT ALL? And from a plot perspective, it makes sense that you’d have to “prove yourself worthy” to the Mandalorians.

Illogical? I thought I had made a very logical case as to how TSL is just as unoriginal as KotOR. It's that there's the same number of Jedi Masters as star maps, did there need to be five. One other than Atris would of worked just as well. It might fit to have to prove yourself worthy, but in a similar manner? The number of planets equals out, 8-9 for both games? Why not 5 or 10? TSL follows the same format too closely, KotOR got away with a linear story but it really hurts TSL.

 

What would of been better would of been to give the player more freedom, to allow them to discover the main plot rather than, how is it you say, spoon feed it to them. Rather than forcing the player to go to Peragus after the tutorial level and then onto Telos, once the Ebon Hawk was fixed you could have been allowed to travel to any planet. Rather than having the player start as a former force user they could of started as a current force user and scaled up the difficulty. Or made the player younger and the growth of the powers could of been slowed. Kriea could of been introduced later, you'd cross paths with her and she'd start leaving clues to the main plots. A chance to choose your followers rather than have them foisted on you, which was one thing I hated about KotOR. And since you now could influence them if the influence failed have them pack up and leave. Then there could of been more cross planet quests, there's not really much reason to go back and forth between planets. Go there do the quests find the Jedi Master move on to the next planet, with only a few minor reasons to come back again.

 

Mostly I would of prefered a chance to explore the Galaxy Far Far Away for a while as a normal citizen before being called up to save it. Especially from such a weak threat.

 

12. There NEVER has been an inhuman void in the force that has the potential to devour all life, nor has there ever been a Sith Lord who can regenerate without having to drain any captives in Star Wars.

Again end bosses regenerating is a common ploy in gaming, this isn't some revolutionary concept designed to change the face of Star Wars but a trick to prolong the confrontation. The fact he does it without captives just makes it even more obvious and cheap.

 

No, your character didn’t save the world; he/she SAVED THE GALAXY, by stopping Darth Nihilus, who most likely would’ve devoured ALL LIFE IN THE GALAXY! And so what about not ruling the galaxy. That’s such a cliché with DS’ders in SW it’s not funny.

Again no Nihilus would not have destroyed the galaxy, either someone or something would still of stopped him. Either that or Kriea was misleading you and the Jedi about the potential of his threat. He's not the first Sith Lord to feed off of the force energy of a planetry population. Visas was under his influence, and probably in shock from the loss of her world so of course she would seen him as an unstoppable monster.

 

Many people are under this illusion that KotOR had deep characters. It seems that many people love this childish “I ask and you tell” concept of learning about a character. What, so just because most of the characters in TSL didn’t spoon feed you their back-stories like in KotOR, suddenly they are not deep and interesting?

It soon got annoying in KotOR to be stopped and told to speak to the characters, but really beyond that how is TSL any different? The character's don't divulge their entire backstory in one go in either game.

 

 

I'm definitely not above being proved wrong, but i think that it would help if you actually gave me proof that this is not an original Star Wars idea, rather than just saying that i'm wrong and that's it.

The plot needed you to have a connection to the force via Kriea, if she had been brought in later you would of gotten the powers later. But the concept is still the same, both characters have to start over and gain force powers.

 

Cut off from the force - Yuuzhan Vong

 

Manipulating the hero and theories that undermine both the lightside and darkside - Vergere

 

Draining the life force on a planetary scale - Exar Kun

 

Wounds in the Force - Destruction of Aalderan.

 

Anti Jedi sentiment - At least one of the prequel era books I just can't think of which one at 5am. Sorry.