What should we do about Attack Parries?

[razorace]

I've been hearing complaints about how attack parries are performed. Namely, that it's too easy to spam them.

 

I need some suggestions on how to fix this.

 

My suggestion is to make attack parries be triggered by pressing secondary (only) while standing still.

 

Any ideas?

[Maxstate]

I'm voting for having them the way they are right now so we can deal with more important things...

[JRHockney*]

My suggestion is to make attack parries be triggered by pressing secondary (only) while standing still.

 

Think about it. How easy could anybody spam that. Watch as I just stand there and attack parry every hit you throw at me then just hit you in the slowbounce. Besides, we could use that combination for something else later.

 

Sorry but I was going to post those ideas you mentioned last night, but I realised they both have fatal flaws so I wasnt sure how to go about it. The first one would have ping related issues plus the preblocks dont always go off anyways. The second one would just be too hard to do right because of the preblocks interfering.

 

Honestly, the real problem lies in the preblocks themselves. I've gotten alot of complaints about those too From people who keep getting their swings prevented. We MUST find a way to make those overrideable by swings and start fakes if we're going to keep them in my opinion *coughs*andforlightningto*coughs* They dont add that much to the visual effect because they end up on a ping delay half the time and they prevent what was the best way to do attack parries we've had so far. Is there any way to make it sort of a ghost animation that doesn't effect swinging or normal blocks? Cmon, theres got to be something we can do!!

 

I'm voting for having them the way they are right now so we can deal with more important things...

 

The way they are now, attack fakes end up getting spammed because they you can't swing at them anymore half the time without getting attackparried. And because of the increase in attack fakes, accidential attack parries end up happening almost as much as they did when it was just attack you had to hold. Knowing this has made the combat alot less fun for me lately, so I'm anxious to see this changed. As long as we can find a way to override the preblocks, bringing back the old ones will be easy.

[mark2000]

why not give a certain disadvantage to the person who makes a successful attack parry?

[JackBaldy]

I've been hearing complaints about how attack parries are performed. Namely, that it's too easy to spam them.

 

I need some suggestions on how to fix this.

 

My suggestion is to make attack parries be triggered by pressing secondary (only) while standing still.

 

Any ideas?

 

The old way was the best in my opinion. When pre-block animations didn't screw with precision and such. Good times, good times.

[UDM]

But OJP looks nicer and more realistic with pre-block animations. Besides, it's what we asked for

[Maxstate]

The pre-block anims never ruined anything for me, I loved them. The old way of riposting is far too easy to be implemented back if you ask me. Just leave it the way it is so we can come up with something better.

[JRHockney*]

Far too easy?! We can't even swing at an attack fake anymore without being reposited/attackparried half the time! Attackfake spam is ruining our saber combat and making normal swings practically useless for anybody but noobs. I taught a noob last we the attack fake and attack parry and he said "why not just do this all the time?" and I said good question, I hope it gets changed. I hate to say it, but I'm starting to think the last way (with just attack) we had was better than this. at least normal swings were useful.

[Maxstate]

What did I say? It is far too easy to perform a riposte, even if you have the chance of doing a power attack. It will get even easier if it gets bounded to just riposting again.

 

Thusly, I suggested we just leave it the way it is for now untill we can think of something better. No, returning it to an even easier form is not better.

[razorace]

Well, I think what I'm going to try is to make the pre-blocks not interfere with pre-blocks. That will mean that players won't pre-block much at all, but that's the price to be paid.

[JRHockney*]

Well, I think what I'm going to try is to make the pre-blocks not interfere with pre-blocks. That will mean that players won't pre-block much at all, but that's the price to be paid.

 

Pre-blocks not interfere with preblocks? I'm not really sure what that means What does it mean for how we do the attack parry?

 

Thusly, I suggested we just leave it the way it is for now untill we can think of something better. No, returning it to an even easier form is not better.

 

Well, I don't think the old old way of doing reposits was all that easy. FOr defense sake, it shouldn't be that hard to execute anyways. It could still be faked out pretty easily even back then. As far as leaving it the way it is, I think until razor can either fix the preblocks so their overridable (which the lightning block especially needs) or dont happen often enough to be a problem, I think the reposit should go back to being the only holding attack thing (and a condition that does not allow you to hold alt attack to make it work since it could before I think) so that will at least make normal attack useful again and give trying it some balance against trying the attack fakes/powerswings. Sure there will still be those accidential reposits, but at least you'll be able to swing at attackfakes again and gets some better usage out of normal swings. Thats a simple coding change on one line so its not like taking time away from anything

[razorace]

*cough* I meant "make the pre-blocks not interfere with windups, attacks, or returns.

 

What's wrong with the lightning block? That doesn't have anything to do with the pre-blocks.

[JRHockney*]

*cough* I meant "make the pre-blocks not interfere with windups, attacks, or returns.

 

What's wrong with the lightning block? That doesn't have anything to do with the pre-blocks.

 

LOL, I do the same thing alot in my sentences. we're getting old, Razor. LOL. anyways...

 

Hooray! This will solve alot of annoyances in the combat and save the attack parries with the old style so they can be more deliberate and independant. Quick interesting thought/idea, how about making start fakes vulnerable to kick, just so you can maybe fake out a constant attack parrier?

 

Hehe, its just that lightning is too spammable in saber combat because you can stop any swing by doing a quick blast. There should only an exception for meleers as far as stopping swings. However, the double damage thing for melee lightning needs to be changed to a slower FP drain I think. The double damage thing ends can be spammed because a person can switch to melee and do lightning and completely drain the jedis DP and knock them over, then switch to saber and lunge them or kill them on the next swing.

 

Although I suppose the damage fo double handed lightning could just be reduced to maybe *1.5 and that MIGHT balance it and get rid of that spam problem.

[mark2000]

If you return the use of Attack Parry through normal swings again, what will happen to normal parrying then? Will you be able to do normal parrying by doing Attack Fakes?

[JRHockney*]

If you return the use of Attack Parry through normal swings again, what will happen to normal parrying then? Will you be able to do normal parrying by doing Attack Fakes?

 

 

Nope, because that was exactly the problem before, attackfakes were spammed because of it.

[razorace]

Hooray! This will solve alot of annoyances in the combat and save the attack parries with the old style so they can be more deliberate and independant. Quick interesting thought/idea, how about making start fakes vulnerable to kick, just so you can maybe fake out a constant attack parrier?

You mean no kick dodge?

Hehe, its just that lightning is too spammable in saber combat because you can stop any swing by doing a quick blast. There should only an exception for meleers as far as stopping swings. However, the double damage thing for melee lightning needs to be changed to a slower FP drain I think. The double damage thing ends can be spammed because a person can switch to melee and do lightning and completely drain the jedis DP and knock them over, then switch to saber and lunge them or kill them on the next swing.

How does stopping a swing hurt the gameplay? I thought the issue was more with the instant knockdown.

Although I suppose the damage fo double handed lightning could just be reduced to maybe *1.5 and that MIGHT balance it and get rid of that spam problem.

Ok, we can try that. bug ticket it.

[JRHockney*]

You mean no kick dodge?

 

Yeah, I think that would be ok but I'm not entirely sure. it would make sense movie wise.

 

How does stopping a swing hurt the gameplay? I thought the issue was more with the instant knockdown.

 

That is sometimes a problem too, but stopping the swing is realy annoying in saber combat and in gunner combat because you might be trying to get a rhythm going with your swings or about to hit somebody and they keep interupting your swings with quick blasts so you can never get a hit on them.

[mark2000]

Nope, because that was exactly the problem before, attackfakes were spammed because of it.

 

so normal parry is left to idle stance and start fake. I guess I can live with that.

 

wait a minute.....

 

If that's the case then don't you think TABBots will become a hell of a lot easier to deal with now than before?

[Maxstate]

I'll repeat:

Returning it to the old version of using fakes or attacks will make it much easier, much more spammed than it is now and will leave regular attacks and regular parries down in the dirt.

 

My take on this is that we should fix it by having riposted power attacks get a bigger bounce and setting the forceregentime on servers lower.

[DarthDie]

Regular attacks are currently in the dust as it is >.>.

[razorace]

That is sometimes a problem too, but stopping the swing is realy annoying in saber combat and in gunner combat because you might be trying to get a rhythm going with your swings or about to hit somebody and they keep interupting your swings with quick blasts so you can never get a hit on them.

Mmm, that's a bit annoying, but I figure it's more of a standoff situation, neither party can really do anything other than block or fire lightning.

[JackBaldy]

I'm not sure why some people would think that the old way of doing attack parries would be easier than the current way it is now or the previous way. By old way, I mean timing a basic fake along with the correct parry direction.

 

As for Lightning being a standoff situation, that is completely incorrect. Someone who is using lightning as a defense will have the upper hand than to someone who isn't. Usually you stop the person from attacking followed by cheap hits. As for hybrids using it along with their guns and flames, well that's a huge problem. As soon as you get close and are trying to slice they can easily lightning you, jump away or jetpack away, continue to flame you, do all sorts of things. They don't really rely on force as much as Jedi so they can block all your strikes at the press of a button and unload on you faster than you can recover from your forced block. Starting lightning only costs 2-3 force points, and it has the ability to knock you down or force a block. There's a reason it is the best force power, and that's because it is overpowered <_<

 

Look at Lightning in comparison to Grip. Both cost the same, only Grip has a starting cost of a billion force points and a constant cost of a million force points to continue. It can't knock an opponent down, it doesn't effect DP, it can't affect a user that wouldn't normally be affected by force like Lightning can, it really doesn't measure up to any of the force powers yet it is priced as much as the most overpowered force power. Somethings wrong with that picture. Even the lesser priced force powers such as Push and Pull force a block (affecting someone when they aren't normally affected with force powers unlike Grip...) which is not quite as overpowered and game breaking as Lightning because of a higher starting cost but it still is overpowered and game breaking.

 

As for the pre-block animations, they completely mess up precision and accuracy. You can't accurately try to strike because most of the time you will be in a pre-block animation which will not allow you to strike. An example of this would be when trying to strike someone during the wind up of an attack fake. Nine out of ten times you will be in a pre-block animation not allowing you to strike back at the right moment which is a problem. And to be honest I don't really think they are worth it because it really doesn't add any game play value, it is just animations being run. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it detracts from game play value because of the bad things that have come from it. Such as having to change attack parries and removing the ability to do timed strikes to counter someone doing an attack fake.

[Maxstate]

I'm not sure why some people would think that the old way of doing attack parries would be easier than the current way it is now or the previous way. By old way, I mean timing a basic fake along with the correct parry direction.

How are they not? Timing a two button, long attack that can easily be canceled out versus timing a tap that works in a 2 second barrier.

 

As for Lightning being a standoff situation, that is completely incorrect. Someone who is using lightning as a defense will have the upper hand than to someone who isn't. Usually you stop the person from attacking followed by cheap hits. As for hybrids using it along with their guns and flames, well that's a huge problem. As soon as you get close and are trying to slice they can easily lightning you, jump away or jetpack away, continue to flame you, do all sorts of things. They don't really rely on force as much as Jedi so they can block all your strikes at the press of a button and unload on you faster than you can recover from your forced block. Starting lightning only costs 2-3 force points, and it has the ability to knock you down or force a block. There's a reason it is the best force power, and that's because it is overpowered <_<

Not really.

Lightning leaves you open before, during and after you execute it. Also unless your forceregentime is at 1 like on Hocks' server, there'll be no real trouble with lightning as to make it effective you need to drain out your FP bar to meet ends with your opponents' DP bar. The defense for lightning costs HALF than lightning itself as well.

 

Gunners should not be able to get lightning. PERIOD. If/when the new idea about no-force-without-specific-guns gets combined with the accuracy system we have now, gunners won't be able to get clean shots in anymore if they try to shoot-jump-lightning shoot again.

 

Look at Lightning in comparison to Grip. Both cost the same, only Grip has a starting cost of a billion force points and a constant cost of a million force points to continue. It can't knock an opponent down, it doesn't effect DP, it can't affect a user that wouldn't normally be affected by force like Lightning can, it really doesn't measure up to any of the force powers yet it is priced as much as the most overpowered force power. Somethings wrong with that picture. Even the lesser priced force powers such as Push and Pull force a block (affecting someone when they aren't normally affected with force powers unlike Grip...) which is not quite as overpowered and game breaking as Lightning because of a higher starting cost but it still is overpowered and game breaking.

You can move people to any location within 10 feet of yourself with grip, including a big pit. Also, grip has the ability to not only slow down but also incapacitate the opponent for a far longer time than lightning does. Lightning also blasts the opponent away from you while grip can be useful for bringing them closer.

 

As for the pre-block animations, they completely mess up precision and accuracy. You can't accurately try to strike because most of the time you will be in a pre-block animation which will not allow you to strike. An example of this would be when trying to strike someone during the wind up of an attack fake. Nine out of ten times you will be in a pre-block animation not allowing you to strike back at the right moment which is a problem. And to be honest I don't really think they are worth it because it really doesn't add any game play value, it is just animations being run. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it detracts from game play value because of the bad things that have come from it. Such as having to change attack parries and removing the ability to do timed strikes to counter someone doing an attack fake.

 

I do agree that they are sometimes in the way.. but if we made everything override the pre-block anims per se it wouldn't be such a problem.

[JRHockney*]

I'll repeat:

Returning it to the old version of using fakes or attacks will make it much easier, much more spammed than it is now and will leave regular attacks and regular parries down in the dirt.

 

My take on this is that we should fix it by having riposted power attacks get a bigger bounce and setting the forceregentime on servers lower.

 

 

How are they not? Timing a two button, long attack that can easily be canceled out versus timing a tap that works in a 2 second barrier.

 

In comparison to the new reposits, the old ones have to be deliberate and are completely independant of any other move. And they are only easier when doing them deliberately when trying them by themselves (hopefully easier for noobs to learn toi). The new reposits can be done (and ARE usually done) coming right out of a slowbounce or any second hit. You can just hold the buttons and parry because by the time they hit you, your block or slowbounce animation ends and its an extrememly easy reposit. Thats why tanqexe was able to attack parry me constantly in our last few fights, even though he didnt even know how to do them in the new code! Last I talked to him, he missed the old way too. Your ideas on how to fix them will not help how often they happen that much or allow the powerattacks to be swung at any better.

 

No, the new attack parries have way too many issues to be preferable over the old ones. If its spammed, hopefully Razor will listen to my kick idea that I posted above Don't think it will be though, I rememeber our system seeming more offense heavy back when it was around than it is now. I'm willing to bet they happen alot more now then they did back then.

 

Not really.

Lightning leaves you open before, during and after you execute it. Also unless your forceregentime is at 1 like on Hocks' server, there'll be no real trouble with lightning as to make it effective you need to drain out your FP bar to meet ends with your opponents' DP bar. The defense for lightning costs HALF than lightning itself as well.

 

For the record, my server is set at 350. That 1 thing is a bug that occasionally happens to my server for some reason. Anyways, a quick blast of lightning stopping your swing can interrupt the flow of the battle and give your opponent the upper hand. Its still quite annoying. Hopefully Razor will add that no offensive power thing for weapons that ou and he talked about so we won't have to deal with lightning + gunner spam.

 

As for the pre-block animations, they completely mess up precision and accuracy. You can't accurately try to strike because most of the time you will be in a pre-block animation which will not allow you to strike. An example of this would be when trying to strike someone during the wind up of an attack fake. Nine out of ten times you will be in a pre-block animation not allowing you to strike back at the right moment which is a problem. And to be honest I don't really think they are worth it because it really doesn't add any game play value, it is just animations being run. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it detracts from game play value because of the bad things that have come from it. Such as having to change attack parries and removing the ability to do timed strikes to counter someone doing an attack fake.

 

Razor already said he'll probably make them overridable. So they'ed just be there for visual effect and not detract from anything.

 

...and I agree, grip should not cost that much unless its as good as lightning and its just not.

[JackBaldy]

How are they not? Timing a two button, long attack that can easily be canceled out versus timing a tap that works in a 2 second barrier.

 

Mkay, lets see. Think about the previous way attack parries were done. Anytime while holding attack. People thought it was overpowered and unskillful enough to change it. Well they changed it so that you now have to hold 2 buttons instead of one. That's the only difference. You don't have to time anything, all you have to do is hold 2 buttons instead of 1.

 

Not really.

Lightning leaves you open before, during and after you execute it. Also unless your forceregentime is at 1 like on Hocks' server, there'll be no real trouble with lightning as to make it effective you need to drain out your FP bar to meet ends with your opponents' DP bar. The defense for lightning costs HALF than lightning itself as well.

 

Lightning doesn't leave you open enough for it to be an issue to use. Also, because it forces the opponent to block it doesn't really matter that it does leave you open. Basically you block an attack being undamaged for the cost of 2-3 force by just pressing a button.

 

You can move people to any location within 10 feet of yourself with grip, including a big pit. Also, grip has the ability to not only slow down but also incapacitate the opponent for a far longer time than lightning does. Lightning also blasts the opponent away from you while grip can be useful for bringing them closer.

 

The force cost alone really makes grip an underpowered force power. Someone has to be force vulnerable for Grip to even have an affect on someone unlike every other force power. Lightning, Push, and Pull all affect the user by forcing them to block. Also, moving someone around isn't all that important and because the person has to be force vulnerable thus it is hard to get them into a position where you can just throw them out. That is if you are in a map that has those features, such as Taspir. Also, you say that Grip you can bring them in closer and all that yada yada yada, with Lightning, you can drop them with 2-3 force points and then strike forcing a dodge if they are force vulnerable. They don't move 100 miles away as you claim, they are easily within range to strike and serve a better purpose than push and pull in that department because of the force point use comparison. And you also forget that a quick press of the push button easily stops Grip. Grip also doesn't have the ability to drain dodge points as Lightning can. Lightning has many uses, Grip does not.

 

Simply put, Grip isn't anywhere near Lightnings league.