Connection between Exile and Nihilus [Possible TSL spoiler]

[SilentScope001]

Yes, I know the Chronclies are uncanon, but actually...

 

Meanwhile on Dantooine, the small Jedi academy overseen by Master Vodo-Siosk Baas is shocked to learn that a lone Jedi Padawan has disobeyed a direct order from Jedi Master ATRIS, a prominent Jedi on the Council. This single student has left behind the relative safety of the training grounds to fight alongside the Jedi loyal to Master Revan. But this young one, like the other Jedi brethren, is unaware of the tremendous dark side power wielded by Revan and the terrible secrets of Malachor V.

 

No mention of this foolish Padawan ever again, but I think I can speculate that this lone Jedi is "The Exile"...with the Chronclies forgetting that "The Exile" is a Jedi Knight, not a Padawan. Incomplete, but it does explain that The Exile is a Padawan of Atris.

[Jediphile]

Just sparring with the Exile doesn't explain the line about not expecting Kavar to turn on him/her too. So there was more there than just being a sparring partner.

 

No, but the line about considering the exile as his apprentice does, since it makes no sense if the exile was his apprentice.

 

Yes, I know the Chronclies are uncanon, but actually...[/Quote]

 

 

The KotOR2 Chronicles are canon. They were posted at the official website.

 

Meanwhile on Dantooine, the small Jedi academy overseen by Master Vodo-Siosk Baas is shocked to learn that a lone Jedi Padawan has disobeyed a direct order from Jedi Master ATRIS, a prominent Jedi on the Council. This single student has left behind the relative safety of the training grounds to fight alongside the Jedi loyal to Master Revan. But this young one, like the other Jedi brethren, is unaware of the tremendous dark side power wielded by Revan and the terrible secrets of Malachor V.

 

No mention of this foolish Padawan ever again, but I think I can speculate that this lone Jedi is "The Exile"...with the Chronclies forgetting that "The Exile" is a Jedi Knight, not a Padawan. Incomplete, but it does explain that The Exile is a Padawan of Atris.

 

No, I don't think so. Yes, I agree we're talking about the exile here, but it only establishes that Atris was a master and the exile a padawan. It does not establish, however, that the exile's master was Atris.

 

Nor could it, since the game says otherwise...

 

Exile to handmaiden sister: "High talk for Atris, considering she never had a Padawan."

[SilentScope001]

The KotOR2 Chronicles are canon. They were posted at the official website.

 

I consider them just a pretty poorly written fan fic, but I guess that it is also canon, which makes me cringe.

 

No, I don't think so. Yes, I agree we're talking about the exile here, but it only establishes that Atris was a master and the exile a padawan. It does not establish, however, that the exile's master was Atris.

 

Nor could it, since the game says otherwise...

 

Exile to handmaiden sister: "High talk for Atris, considering she never had a Padawan."

 

You're right. And just when I was happy that Atris finally got a connection to The Exile to make her a good villian.

[Darca Lar]

Just sparring with the Exile doesn't explain the line about not expecting Kavar to turn on him/her too. So there was more there than just being a sparring partner.

 

Exile and Kavar were great friends and Exile looked at Kavar not only as a dear friend but somewhat of a mentor as well. Does this answer it for you?

[Master Dakari]

To clear up a few discrepancies since people tend to have a knack for not reading anything previously posted...

 

1) The canon gender of the Jedi Exile is female.

 

2) The canon alignment of the Jedi Exile is Light Side.

 

3) Atris was a Jedi Master. However, her title is either honorary, or she retook the Jedi Trials on a higher difficulty level in order to be granted the rank. She never had a Padawan (at the time of the game), nor has she ever taught any Jedi in general.

 

4) With the limited sources we have, we do not know who the Jedi Exile's master was. It was not Kavar; they were friends, but never Master and Padawan (Please go back and read Kavar's line quoted directly from the game!) It was not Atris either; as spoken of above. WE DO NOT KNOW!

 

5) The Chronicles of the Old Republic are canon, in as much as they do not conflict with other, more reputable sources. There are many mistakes. One of which is that the Exile attended the Jedi Enclave when it was overseen by Master Vodo Siosk-Baas. Yes, he established it. However, he was dead by the time the Exile was there and/or left for the Mandalorian Wars.

 

6) The Chronicles are correct in their depiction of the Exile being a Padawan when leaving for the Mandalorian Wars. It later states that when she returned from the war (the only one to do so willingly), it says she is a Jedi Knight. This tells us that during the conflict that spans years, she was Knighted. On what grounds and by whom? We don't know. But, regardless, she was.

 

Now that some of that is out of the way, I would like to comment on what SirHaxALot said:

 

"What did you see when you looked at him?"

"A man, nothing more."

 

Visas did not notice any peculiarities in regards to Nihilus. I believe her heightened force perception would allow her to witness and connection between the Exile and Nihilus.

 

Mmmmm... okay, but remember: Nihilus is dead by this point. Any connection that might have existed would have been gone. If the theory holds true, then the essence that was once fueling the empty shell that was Nihilus's physical form would have been absorbed back into the Jedi Exile, or it dissipated. When Nihilus dies, then there can no longer be a bond there, nor any abnormality that she would be aware of. For one, she is physically blind and would not be able to see the physical of Nihilus with eyes like yours or mine, so that leaves out one abnormality. Nor would she be able to sense anything unusual in the Force... because he is dead. He's gone. Poof, bye bye.

[Ztalker]

Plus the fact that the "A man, nothing more." Line could be referecne to what Kreia stated once: "He can not be called a man any longer."

 

And Visas says he is. So we got a lying Kreia, and a Nihilus that seems to be a man. I'd say it could be the face of the exact opposite of the Exile what's beneath the mask: A man, purley darksided.

 

And Visas confirms that.

[SirHaxALot]

Mmmmm... okay, but remember: Nihilus is dead by this point. Any connection that might have existed would have been gone. If the theory holds true, then the essence that was once fueling the empty shell that was Nihilus's physical form would have been absorbed back into the Jedi Exile, or it dissipated. When Nihilus dies, then there can no longer be a bond there, nor any abnormality that she would be aware of. For one, she is physically blind and would not be able to see the physical of Nihilus with eyes like yours or mine, so that leaves out one abnormality. Nor would she be able to sense anything unusual in the Force... because he is dead. He's gone. Poof, bye bye.

 

Alright, point taken.

 

Being able to see with the force is much greater than seeing normally (especially in regards to force connections). So, with prior knowledge of witnessing Nihilus' power and being around Nihilus long enough to get a "feel" for him; I believe Visas would have easily picked up on a connection between the Exile and Nihilus. Of course, Visas never mentions any sort of peculiarities between the Exile and Nihilus. Maybe because there are none? Or maybe because she felt it best for the Exile to find out himself? Who knows...

[Jediphile]

Being able to see with the force is much greater than seeing normally (especially in regards to force connections). So, with prior knowledge of witnessing Nihilus' power and being around Nihilus long enough to get a "feel" for him; I believe Visas would have easily picked up on a connection between the Exile and Nihilus.

 

Considering that Visas never ever mentions detecting the (unusually strong) force bonds between the exile and his companions, I don't think that is a very compelling point. For one thing, Visas should then have been able to give the exile far better insights into the unusual bond that exists between the exile and Kreia, yet there is no such comment in the game.

 

Another thing, note Nihilus does not just dissolve upon death. No, he lies about for Visas to examine and only dissolves when the exile and his companions walk away.

 

Also, Visas takes the mask, not the exile, yet only if the exile tells her to. Why can't the exile get the mask himself, if he wants it? And correct me if I'm wrong, but if Visas dies in that fight (because you sacrifice her), then you can't get the mask at all, since she is not there to collect, right? Now, why is that?

[Master Dakari]

Plus the fact that the "A man, nothing more." Line could be referecne to what Kreia stated once: "He can not be called a man any longer."

 

And Visas says he is. So we got a lying Kreia, and a Nihilus that seems to be a man.

 

Visas was speaking about the crude, dead, rigid body that was now lying on the floor. Kreia was not speaking about a flesh-and-blood man, but rather saying that Nihilus was no longer a man in the sense of consciousness, emotions, drive, HUMANITY. In essence, Kreia was saying that Nihilus was no longer a living being with a drive, a will, or a life of his own. His physical (flesh-an-blood) form was still present, but it was void of true life. He learned (through experience) Hunger at the Trayus Academy, but it eventually consumed him.

 

Many things that are said in the game can sound the exact same, all the while meaning two very opposite things. That's one thing I LOVE about the game. Because when it finally dawns on you... it dawns.

[Quanon]

Visas was speaking about the crude, dead, rigid body that was now lying on the floor. Kreia was not speaking about a flesh-and-blood man, but rather saying that Nihilus was no longer a man in the sense of consciousness, emotions, drive, HUMANITY. In essence, Kreia was saying that Nihilus was no longer a living being with a drive, a will, or a life of his own. His physical (flesh-an-blood) form was still present, but it was void of true life. He learned (through experience) Hunger at the Trayus Academy, but it eventually consumed him.

 

Many things that are said in the game can sound the exact same, all the while meaning two very opposite things. That's one thing I LOVE about the game. Because when it finally dawns on you... it dawns.

 

^^^ What he said is true for me aswell , I think this is one the best things about TSL . The way the conversations are fleshed out , the layers and understandings , even now this thread is a good example of how well some words where chosen .

 

In a way , this vision on the game of Jediphile , gives many anwsers , but Nihilus still stays this very unknown mystiry dark dude .

 

TSL is just lovenly depressing , not like K1 , with it's more happy approach .

Its like ESB against ANH ; both where great , but very different of atmosphere and feel.

[SirHaxALot]

I think Dakari hit the best note.

I guess this describes what Jediphile is doing.

 

Taking the game's meaning and changing it due to conversation pieces that could mean two, three...maybe four separate things.

 

Plus, all of this reasoning etc...is walled behind Speculation, not hard-core evidence.

[Jediphile]

Plus, all of this reasoning etc...is walled behind Speculation, not hard-core evidence.

 

True. I have never said otherwise. The game gives us no hard evidence to base this on, that's why I've consistently called my speculation a theory - because there is no hard evidence... save one.

 

We KNOW that there is a connection between exile and Nihilus from what the masters tell us. They felt the same from Nihilus' attack on Katarr as they did when they judged the exile. That's a fact. They are even so certain of it, that they believe the exile taught this ability to the Sith (meaning Nihilus), or that the Sith (Nihilus) learned it from the exile. Those are the facts.The rest is speculation.

 

I could be wrong about it all, but there IS a connection between the exile and Nihilus. They are not entirely separate beings with no ties to each other.

[Master Dakari]

I could be wrong about it all, but there IS a connection between the exile and Nihilus. They are not entirely separate beings with no ties to each other.

 

I've been thinking... something might also be said about how quickly Visas joined the Exile after being defeated and spared. Sure, she was granted mercy and obviously was very grateful for that, but it is strange that though she is a Sith Apprentice she would so quickly turn her back on her master and apprentice herself to a Jedi.

 

Has anyone else thought the same thing?

[Jediphile]

I've been thinking... something might also be said about how quickly Visas joined the Exile after being defeated and spared. Sure, she was granted mercy and obviously was very grateful for that, but it is strange that though she is a Sith Apprentice she would so quickly turn her back on her master and apprentice herself to a Jedi.

 

Has anyone else thought the same thing?

 

Of course someone has

 

To me it could point another connection between the exile and Nihilus, but that too is speculative, and I felt I had presented enough evidence in the original post in this topic.

[SirHaxALot]

I've been thinking... something might also be said about how quickly Visas joined the Exile after being defeated and spared. Sure, she was granted mercy and obviously was very grateful for that, but it is strange that though she is a Sith Apprentice she would so quickly turn her back on her master and apprentice herself to a Jedi.

 

Has anyone else thought the same thing?

 

She really didn't make the choice to become a Sith Apprentice.

 

What happened is, Nihilus "showed" her the universe for what it really was. After this, she wished to die. Nihilus convinced her to join his cause and she fell in line with him, becoming apprentice and more notably, a servant.

 

Eventually, when she tracked down the Exile, and dueled her on the Ebon Hawk--Visas was defeated. This defeat proved to Visas, that perhaps there is strength enough in the universe to defeat Nihilus. Perhaps, the universe is not as Nihilus showed her.

 

Also, at first she wanted revenge, for what Nihilus did to her species, her homeplanet, and her herself. Eventually, she comes to terms with the past and following the light-side path--comes to terms and accepts an inner-peace.

 

Those are her reasons for joining.

 

Of course, taking on the double-meaning that is saturated within this game's dialogue, you could postulate that all of this "hope" stems from the fact that she drew a connection between the Exile and Nihilus.

 

Of course, as previous posts pointed out: She was unable to distinguish connections amongst the Exile and the rest of the party (or so we think, as such dialogue did not exist that). Which disproved my suggestion that Visas may have recognized a connection between the Exile and Nihilus.

[The Architect]

There is one thing I’ve been wondering about this theory of yours Jediphile. If Darth Nihilus was a dark manifestation of the Exile (or in other words, the dark side the Exile rejected at Malachor V), how come you can fall to the dark side in TSL? Shouldn’t it be impossible for the Exile to do, since that dark side of his/her self isn’t in him/her? Or is this just a massive misconstrue on my part?

[SirHaxALot]

There is one thing I’ve been wondering about this theory of yours Jediphile. If Darth Nihilus was a dark manifestation of the Exile (or in other words, the dark side the Exile rejected at Malachor V), how come you can fall to the dark side in TSL? Shouldn’t it be impossible for the Exile to do, since that dark side of his/her self isn’t in him/her? Or is this just a massive misconstrue on my part?

 

I suppose this argument can be completely voided by the fact that canon Exile is light-side.

 

Besides, the exile split from the dark-side during her time as a Jedi at Malachor V, according to Jedphile's theory. The Exile later regains her force connection, which again would allow for a new chance to pursue the path of light or follow the path of dark.

 

I don't agree with his theory, but in accordance to it, I believe he would argue something along those lines...

[SilentScope001]

There is one thing I’ve been wondering about this theory of yours Jediphile. If Darth Nihilus was a dark manifestation of the Exile (or in other words, the dark side the Exile rejected at Malachor V), how come you can fall to the dark side in TSL? Shouldn’t it be impossible for the Exile to do, since that dark side of his/her self isn’t in him/her? Or is this just a massive misconstrue on my part?

 

It is merely the Dark Side that the Exile rejected at Malachor V that Nihilus becomes.

 

Nothing says that The Exile can't create his own brand of Dark Sideness. Not the Dark Side motivated by Revan's massacres and the Battle of Malachor V, but the Dark Side that is fueled by rage against the Jedi Council and against Revan. My Exile was angry at the Jedi Council's reaction to him, and swore Revenge, and it is this swearing of Revenge that caused The Exile to fall.

 

If you fall to the Dark Side, Kreia comments that the reason you cut your tie to the Force was because "You had no choice." You didn't want to become Revan's DS pawn (altough you may want to be indepedent, serving yourself) and that you didn't want to die. So you chose the third path, which is to reject the Force.

[Jediphile]

It is merely the Dark Side that the Exile rejected at Malachor V that Nihilus becomes.

 

This is my take on the matter as well. It somehow seems incorrect or insufficient to say that the exile merely rejected the dark side at Malachor V, since the choice to turn to the dark side is still there. It would be more correct to say that the exile rejected being dictated to by the force and shed himself of anything that would force the issue upon him. My theory is then, that what the exile shed himself of becomes Nihilus. But since the choice of Malachor V was to either die or turn to the dark side, then what survives must be definition be dark sided. The exile himself will not make a choice, so he remains grey and can freely turn either to the light or the dark side at a later time.

[SirHaxALot]

lol, I re-read my post about Visas Marr, wow--being tired > grammar, diction, and syntax.

[CaldaRaric]

Does anyone else but me think it odd that Nihilus is the biggest thing on the cover of the game, and he doesn't have the biggest part in the game? Could this be because Nihilus is in fact part of the Exile? And although they can't do it for this game but, the main character is usually the biggest thing on the cover. Interesting to think about...

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Does anyone else but me think it odd that Nihilus is the biggest thing on the cover of the game, and he doesn't have the biggest part in the game? Could this be because Nihilus is in fact the Exile? And although they can't do it for this game but, the main character is usually the biggest thing on the cover. Interesting to think about...

I don't think anyone ever said that Nihilus was the Exile, only a part of him. And he was the greatest threat to the galaxy at the time, so it seems like it makes sense for him to be on the cover to me.

[BlazingPhoenix]

Wow, I think this is a really interesting theory and you guys are putting up great arguments, love the discussion so far.

[CaldaRaric]

I don't think anyone ever said that Nihilus was the Exile, only a part of him. And he was the greatest threat to the galaxy at the time, so it seems like it makes sense for him to be on the cover to me.

I edited it to say "part of". I didn't realize I said he was the exile.

 

I don't know, I guess I didn't think he was all that great because he doesn't do much during the period that you play the exile, that I can think of except go to Telos. And if I can remember, he was easy to kill.

[SilentScope001]

New Evidence! New Evidence!

 

If you play as LS and get Visas to look at Nihilus' mask, Visas talk about Nihilus being a man, nothing more.

 

If you play as DS and get Visas to look at Nihilus' mask, Visas talk about Nihlus being a graveyard of worlds.

 

...So, basically, Nihilus' apperance to Visas changes based on your alignment. Hm...sounds like there is an actual connection, altough it could just mean that you, The Exile, is clouding Visas, and making Visas focus on the evil if you are Dark Sided, and focus on the good if you are Light Sided.