Kreia is the Unkown Regions threat (possible spoilers)

[Eefluxx]

I was wondering if anyone else has thought on this topic.

 

Facts that the games had given us.

1) Bastila says Revan went to the unkown regions to deal with a serious threat

2) Kreia claims to have the force taken from her by the Jedi Council

3)Kreia claims Revan sought her out to continue his/her training

4)Kreia now has the Ebon Hawk and Revan has dissappeared

5)The Ebon Hawk's navicomputer is locked by Kreia so only she (and maybe T3) knows where it has been

6)Kreia says that Revan is in the unkown regions fighting a greater evil

 

Possible scenarios

1) Kreia is the greater threat in the unkown regions and kills Revan and returns to the Republic

2)Kreia ventures out into the unkown regions and learns to feel the force again and becomes a power in that region

3)Revans seeks her out to gain more power and she kills him (note: I had originally thought maybe she turned Revan into Nhilus and Malak into Sion but threw these out because Revan is whatever gender the PC chooses and Nhilus is always refered to as being a male and Malak has no lower jaw and Sion does:) )

4) Kreia is on the Ebon Hawk from the begining of the game

5)she locks the navicomputer so noone will figure out that Revan is dead

6) Yes she tells us that Revan is alive and well in the unknown regions fighting but Kreia is also known as the Betrayer and we know how well she manipulates everyone in the game

 

This was just something I thought about while at work and thought I would share it and see if anyone else has thought this or if I am the only wierd one in the bunch

[SilentScope001]

Allronix also believed that Kreia is part of the True Sith as well, and that Revan was secretly captured and is stuck in True Sith prison. So you are not alone in this sort of speculation.

 

Would be a tad ironic if Revan did all this to defend the galaxy from Kreia...especially since Kreia was the one who taught Revan how to "leave the Order" (this is my interperation however, but I believe it is the one that makes sense).

[Ctrl Alt Del]

I find unlikely that Kreia's the threat on the Unknown Regions. Why? Well, unless she was lying (which highly unlikely) she says by the end of the game (on LS), that you should go and help Revan - or stop him - on whatever he's doing on the Unknown Regions.

[Jediphile]

I was wondering if anyone else has thought on this topic.

 

Facts that the games had given us.

1) Bastila says Revan went to the unkown regions to deal with a serious threat

2) Kreia claims to have the force taken from her by the Jedi Council

3)Kreia claims Revan sought her out to continue his/her training

4)Kreia now has the Ebon Hawk and Revan has dissappeared

5)The Ebon Hawk's navicomputer is locked by Kreia so only she (and maybe T3) knows where it has been

6)Kreia says that Revan is in the unkown regions fighting a greater evil

 

1. Yes.

2. Where did you get that from? Kreia lost her powers when Nihilus and Sion betrayed her. The jedi council had nothing to do with that. They kicked her out for "dark" teachings, blaming her for Revan's fall, yes, but they had nothing to do with her loss of power.

3. She says he returned to her to learn how to leave the order. Not sure if I'd call that training.

4. Revan has disappeared, but I don't think Kreia "has" the Ebon Hawk. She just happens to be on the ship early in the game.

5. Actually, Kreia merely says that she has the means by which to control the ship. This is true only insofar that she has knowledge of the locked navicomputer that nobody else has. That knowledge is simply that the computer was locked by T3, who is the only one who can control it. So although Kreia certainly insinuates that she has control of the ship, we never see any evidence that she does. HK-47, however, learns the hard way just how much control T3 has over the ship.

6. Yes, he went to fight the true Sith.

 

Possible scenarios

1) Kreia is the greater threat in the unkown regions and kills Revan and returns to the Republic

2)Kreia ventures out into the unkown regions and learns to feel the force again and becomes a power in that region

3)Revans seeks her out to gain more power and she kills him (note: I had originally thought maybe she turned Revan into Nhilus and Malak into Sion but threw these out because Revan is whatever gender the PC chooses and Nhilus is always refered to as being a male and Malak has no lower jaw and Sion does:) )

4) Kreia is on the Ebon Hawk from the begining of the game

5)she locks the navicomputer so noone will figure out that Revan is dead

6) Yes she tells us that Revan is alive and well in the unknown regions fighting but Kreia is also known as the Betrayer and we know how well she manipulates everyone in the game

 

1. Given that Kreia dies at the end of the game, I severely doubt that. That would make no sense at all.

2. There is no indication that Kreia has ever been there. On the contrary, she tells us that she is not sure if she would have followed Revan there, had he asked, which suggests she does not know the place.

3. If we believe Kreia, then Revan is still out there. The exile's visions in the tomb on Korriban would seem to suggest that, as would T3's return to the Republic. And Malak died at the end of the first game.

4. The beginning of the game, when the ship is drifting towards Peragus, yes. She can be found among the bodies on the ship. I'm less certain she has been with T3 for the entire trip, though.

5. No, T3 did that. On Revan's orders.

6. Kreia manipulates everybody, true. However, if you examine her statements closely, she never tells a direct lie. And even if she did, that does not mean that she killed Revan. Besides, I doubt she could. Revan seems to be rather more powerful than Kreia. She also seems to be very proud of him, in which case killing Revan would seem very unlikely.

[Eefluxx]

Jediphile

As for number 2 on the list I don't remember her saying that she lost her powers when Nihilus and Sion betrayed her, however the Jedi on Nar Shadda I think said the Council had only taken the force away from someone once and I assumed it was Kreia since she stated her powers were taken from her. But it would not be the first nor the last time I was wrong about something. As for Malak dying in the first game Kreia was known for bringing people back from the dead and faking her own death in the second game

havn't figured out how to get the qoutes in the replies yet so bear with me on my responses

[Melly]

Kreia: I was cast down. Stripped of my power. Exiled.

 

And interestingly in an alternate version of that scene it says that they cast Kreia out because she did not wish to kill the Exile: {Alternate}I did not wish to kill you, so they cast me down. Stripped me of my power. Exiled me.

[Robb Stark]

As for number 2 on the list I don't remember her saying that she lost her powers when Nihilus and Sion betrayed her, however the Jedi on Nar Shadda I think said the Council had only taken the force away from someone once and I assumed it was Kreia since she stated her powers were taken from her.

 

Here's the quote from the game:

 

"It is a rare sentence, and to my knowledge, it has only be done once, at a moment where a Jedi discipline has failed."

 

My understanding is that it a nod to EU fans, and a reference to Ulic Qel-Droma. Ulic was severed from the Force, and as it happened only about fifty years previous to KotOR, Zez Kai-El would almost certainly have known about it.

 

Kreia: I was cast down. Stripped of my power. Exiled.

 

This is from a movie cutscene in which Nihilus and Sion confront Darth Traya at the Trayus Core. Her being cast down and stripped of her power was in reference to being "out" with the two Sith Lords.

 

And interestingly in an alternate version of that scene it says that they cast Kreia out because she did not wish to kill the Exile: {Alternate}I did not wish to kill you, so they cast me down. Stripped me of my power. Exiled me.

 

Again, her refusal to kill the Exile would have been to Sion and Nihilus, who wanted to wipe out the Jedi completely.

 

Incidentally, it is not even clear that being "stripped of my power" is a reference to being severed from the Force. The cutscene in question shows her being "blocked" from the Force when she states that "There are techniques within the Force against which there are no defense," but she was still able to "rattle" her saber with the Force. And since she had clearly become a Force user again by the time TSL started, it's my opinion that Nihilus and Sion had actually not severed her connection, just temporarily blocked it while they "cast her down." Furthermore, it is my opinion that by "power" Kreia was referring to her authority as Dark Lord of the Sith, rather than Force power. She had been Darth Traya, master to Sion and Nihilus, and through them of the Sith who hunted down the Jedi leading into TSL. Sion and Nihilus, not agreeing with her goals, usurped her position. In a matter of speaking, she was "stripped of her power"--her authority over the Sith.

 

What we do know about Kreia's relationship with the Jedi was that she was cast out because her teachings contradicted the doctrines held by the Jedi Council. But while Atris seemed to bear a grudge against Kreia, it does always seem the Council at large sought to *punish* her:

 

Kavar?: "The choice of one was the choice of us all. Revan's teacher intended no harm. And Revan had many teachers since."

 

Of course we get:

 

Atris: "Yet they all stem from the same source. Her teachings violated the Jedi Code and lead all who listen to the dark side, as they did the exile."

 

And Kreia's anger when asked:

 

"That is why Atris and the others blamed me, sentenced me. They believed me responsible for Revan's fall. "

 

I believe somewhere in the game it is mentioned that everyone Kreia trained eventually followed Revan to war against the Mandalorians, but I could be wrong. I do not get the sense that they viewed Kreia as a danger in and of herself, but that her teachings were too dangerous to let her continue to train Jedi--sufficient excuse for exile, but not for cutting her off from the Force.

 

As for Malak dying in the first game Kreia was known for bringing people back from the dead and faking her own death in the second game

 

I don't think Kreia brought anyone back from the dead. She had put herself in a Force-induced stasis that made her _appear_ dead. And despite how the events in the arena looked, Mira had not killed Hanharr. Mortally wounded perhaps, but she would not kill her prey--that's how, if you're playing LS, Kreia can "raise" him. As for Malak, Revan killed him on the Star Forge, which was subsequently blown up by the Republic, its remnants engulfed by the star. There's no way Malak's body would have survived a LS ending to KotOR. And writing such a key plot point as Malak's resurrection should the player state that Revan was DS (in the dialogue with Atton) would only confound the entire plot of TSL to no real purpose.

 

Kreia also had ample opportunity to fall to the Dark Side for reasons other than being a True Sith or "the great threat of the Unknown Regions" or whatever.

 

She was a Jedi historian, whose 'strength through struggle/conflict' worldview put her at odds with Jedi doctrine. She had access to information that led her to take a broader view of the Force than that taught by the Jedi:

 

"I was a historian once, gathering the relics of the Jedi, learning the ancient mysteries. Always, there were more questions."

 

"One quickly learns that the Jedi code does not give all the answers. If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea."

 

Furthermore, when asked how she defines herself, as Jedi or Sith:

 

"What do you wish to hear? That I once believed in the code of the Jedi? That I felt the call of the Sith, that perhaps, once, I held the galaxy by its throat?"

 

It is also known that at some point she stepped foot on Malachor which has an almost irresistable corrupting influence on all who walk on its surface.

 

but Kreia is also known as the Betrayer and we know how well she manipulates everyone in the game

 

I think it has been reasonably established that Darth Traya is almost certainly not a reference to one who betrays others, but rather one who believes they have experienced betrayal--in a way that affects them in the deepest way imaginable.

 

And there is the final fact that Revan discovered the threat in the Unknown Regions before the end of the Mandalorian wars. That, along with his being corrupted by Malachor (perhaps aided by his other faults), is what caused him to eventually adopt the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith and invade the Republic. The timing simply does not suggest that what he found was Kreia, as she had been a member of the Jedi order until she had been exiled for her aberrant teachings *after* Revan's fall--most of the evidence would suggest, IMO, that she assumed the role of Darth Traya after she believed herself "betrayed" by the Jedi and their narrow view of the Force.

[Jediphile]

Here's the quote from the game:

 

"It is a rare sentence, and to my knowledge, it has only be done once, at a moment where a Jedi discipline has failed."

 

My understanding is that it a nod to EU fans, and a reference to Ulic Qel-Droma. Ulic was severed from the Force, and as it happened only about fifty years previous to KotOR, Zez Kai-El would almost certainly have known about it.

 

I concur. That was my interpretation as well.

 

This is from a movie cutscene in which Nihilus and Sion confront Darth Traya at the Trayus Core. Her being cast down and stripped of her power was in reference to being "out" with the two Sith Lords.

 

Incidentally, it is not even clear that being "stripped of my power" is a reference to being severed from the Force. The cutscene in question shows her being "blocked" from the Force when she states that "There are techniques within the Force against which there are no defense," but she was still able to "rattle" her saber with the Force. And since she had clearly become a Force user again by the time TSL started, it's my opinion that Nihilus and Sion had actually not severed her connection, just temporarily blocked it while they "cast her down." Furthermore, it is my opinion that by "power" Kreia was referring to her authority as Dark Lord of the Sith, rather than Force power. She had been Darth Traya, master to Sion and Nihilus, and through them of the Sith who hunted down the Jedi leading into TSL. Sion and Nihilus, not agreeing with her goals, usurped her position. In a matter of speaking, she was "stripped of her power"--her authority over the Sith.

 

 

Kreia, at the end of the game: "In times past and in times future, there are Jedi who will stop listening to the Force, those that will try to forget it, but maintain unconscious ties. {Quiet}And those, as in the past just as I, who have had the force stripped from them."

 

I think it has been reasonably established that Darth Traya is almost certainly not a reference to one who betrays others, but rather one who believes they have experienced betrayal--in a way that affects them in the deepest way imaginable.

 

Kreia (to Atris): " "Sith" is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe.For you... it is different. Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose.{Quietly, resigned, like she is about to perform an unpleasant duty}But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. {Quietly}Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn. You have bathed in the knowledge of the Sith. But there is not enough truth in such teachings... but it will be a step for you."

[alexl86]

I'd first like to state that neither Revan nor Kreia were really corrupted by the Dark side. Revan embraced it out of necessity, to defend the republic against the true Sith. Kreia also seem to use teachings from both side, not believing either side is more powerful.

 

That said, Kreia is most certainly not the True Sith. There's not really anything in the game to suggest that she was, on the contrary she seem to want the Exile to follow Revan to fight them.

 

I have no doubt that Kreia lost her connection to the force when she was betrayed by Nihilus and Sion. But the Jedi Masters do mention that a severed connection may be healed and Kreia would certainly know a way, being very knowledgable in the ways of the force. She was also Darth Traya throughout the game, betrayed by the Jedi and the Sith, she betrayed the exile in the end. It's contradictory to what she says to Atris, but it may be that's the remnants of "Atris" ending or her way to make Atris fall. I figured that when Nihilus "stripped" her of the force, it was drained over a few seconds. It would explain why she was able to move her saber before becomming helpless. She also seem to referense it throughout the game as she's speaking from experience, as far back as Telos when she talks to Atton.

[Feenix]

My take on this...

 

Kreia is niether sith nor jedi.. I believe through her studies she transcended both groups. In a way, she became far more powerfull. She is one who sees the effects of actions and reactions of any given situation. Thus the game is steeped in "butterfly effect" scenerios. I believe she allowed herself to "be stripped" by scion and spanky. Much like she allowed scion to cut off her hand. Both incidents achieved the echo effect she desired.

No I do not believe kreia was the "True Sith" She states clearly that she doesn't truley hold to either philosaphy.

 

I believe her donning the Darth Traya image in the end and the final battle with her and the exile is her giving the exile the final bit of instruction.. so that he/she can go into the unknown region and assist Raven.

 

Basicly, I thorugh the game I believe she was manipulating people and things as one huge class for the exile.

 

Remember after beating her she tells you all about the future of your friends... someone who can see all that surley could have forseen everything else that has happen up to the point.