Why Torture (Simulated or Otherwise) Is Stupid

[Tommycat]

As far as how I know what I know, I can only say that I know. I'll leave it at that. You can either believe me or not, it makes no difference to me. I know that Gitmo is more effective than it is given credit for.

 

Timothy McVeigh was a singular entity, yes, but he was basically the leader, the insurgent, and the whole command structure. So if we can capture the whole of the terrorist network, then yeah that works.

 

As far as gang members are concerned, you won't get any sympathy from me about them. I would just assume treat them the same way as we treat terrorists.

 

Meh you want an official source that that has access to top secret information that can be revealed to the world? And it has to be unbiassed? Whatever. You can go to the CIA and request an official statement regarding Guantanamo, and it's effectiveness.

[Achilles]

Well considering I said it was information you are not privy to, I don't see it as a backpedal. If you want an official answer, please direct all inquiries to the CIA. Many official speeches regarding operations in Guantanamo have also stated the same thing. I remember Rumsfeld even alluding to this several times. So no, no backpedaling.

Oh, so you don't have access to it either? Then you don't know. You're simply taking an administration known for lying at their word.

 

As far as how I know what I know, I can only say that I know. I'll leave it at that. You can either believe me or not, it makes no difference to me. I know that Gitmo is more effective than it is given credit for.

You don't know, you believe. Big difference.

 

Timothy McVeigh was a singular entity, yes, but he was basically the leader, the insurgent, and the whole command structure. So if we can capture the whole of the terrorist network, then yeah that works.

Emphasis on "if". Too bad we have no way of knowing how effective Gitmo is because we have no transparency.

 

Not to mention the fact that going into other people's countries and abducting their citizens, transferring them to "black" prisons to be tortured, then to Gitmo for indefinite detention is actually creating terrorists (i.e. the incredibly pissed off family members back home), I don't see how the policy is capable of accomplishing what you think it is.

 

Meh you want an official source that that has access to top secret information that can be revealed to the world? And it has to be unbiassed? Whatever. You can go to the CIA and request an official statement regarding Guantanamo, and it's effectiveness.

You made the statement, sir. The onus is on you to either back it up or admit that you can't, not on us to do your legwork for you. You said there is a lot of information coming out of Gitmo. Please support your statement with evidence. Thanks.

[Rev7]

These people kill far more Americans each year than the terrorists ever can.

Well, as of the moment that is true. Terrorists could kill a lot more if they had the chance to. The terrorists that we in America, and all over the world, are up against kill for a different reason, I guess you could say. They want to kill us because the just hate us, and want the world to be Muslim. Most murders do happen because one person hates another one and kills him/her. There is a different effect. I am not saying that someone that is murdered, doesn't wound the family and friends greatly, there is just a different effect. After 9-11, America was changed, we went to war once again, defense was upped, security at airports was upped, along with many other things. This has changed America. They just have different effects.

[Tommycat]

Oh, so you don't have access to it either? Then you don't know. You're simply taking an administration known for lying at their word.

 

You don't know, you believe. Big difference.

 

No, you want to think it's belief because I can't be more specific. That's fine.

 

Emphasis on "if". Too bad we have no way of knowing how effective Gitmo is because we have no transparency.

Gosh, we're not being transparent about information that is classified as SCI and compromising national security for your warm fuzzies. How will I ever live with myself?

 

Not to mention the fact that going into other people's countries and abducting their citizens, transferring them to "black" prisons to be tortured, then to Gitmo for indefinite detention is actually creating terrorists (i.e. the incredibly pissed off family members back home), I don't see how the policy is capable of accomplishing what you think it is.

Sure, think what you want. Believe what you want from your biased sources.

 

You made the statement, sir. The onus is on you to either back it up or admit that you can't, not on us to do your legwork for you. You said there is a lot of information coming out of Gitmo. Please support your statement with evidence. Thanks.

Meh I'm not allowed by contract to divulge any information outside of official statements. Since the official statements have been made by the administration, I can only reference you to their statements. If you want confirmation that the statements are accurate, you can make note that even the democrats(at least those with access to that information) aren't stating that there is not a lot of information coming out of Gitmo. Their primary concern(and rightly so, both moral and accuracy concerns) is whether we are using torture to gain that information.

[Samuel Dravis]

No, you want to think it's belief because I can't be more specific. That's fine.

Well, if you knew the claim wouldn't have any value then why did you bring it up? Whether it's true or not, not being able to back it up with evidence makes it effectively an opinion.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Well, as of the moment that is true. Terrorists could kill a lot more if they had the chance to.

So could gangs. So could American terrorists (abortion clinic bombers, PETA fanatics who put animal testing sites on fire, etc.).

 

The terrorists that we in America, and all over the world, are up against kill for a different reason, I guess you could say.

Yup. The Russians fight the Chechnyans (with brutal, horrific methods) because they're dead set against the Chechen ethnic group getting their own homeland the way Israel did. The Middle Easterners fight the Kurds (likewise with inhuman means) for the same reason - that they don't want to - God forbid - give Kurdish land back to the Kurds. The US occupies Iraq (detaining and torturing people without trial) because Iraq has oil they didn't want to give to the US. Wonderful causes, those, and wonderful ways to carry them out. Truly. Where do I sign up to become a War on Terror stormtrooper?

 

They want to kill us because the just hate us, and want the world to be Muslim.

All the terrorists, eh? I've never heard a single Chechen rebel, Kurd, PETA member, IRA member, or for that matter Middle Eastern terrorist, to say he's doing what he's doing because he hates America and wants the world to be Muslim.

 

Look, it's starting to really get on my nerves how the GOP has made it so that oppressive regimes are able to just slap the label 'terrorist' on the opposition and have people like you automatically support them. It's an incredibly naïve stance of you to take. I don't like the terrorist tactics (which is one of the reasons I dislike Gitmo), but to just classify them as evil because of their methods, or, even worse, because of a name they've been given by the people fighting them, is absurd to the extreme.

 

In short, you can dislike taking hostages, torturing, and killing civilians all you want. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't support the idea of Chechen and Kurdish homelands.

 

Most murders do happen because one person hates another one and kills him/her. There is a different effect. I am not saying that someone that is murdered, doesn't wound the family and friends greatly, there is just a different effect. After 9-11, America was changed, we went to war once again, defense was upped, security at airports was upped, along with many other things. This has changed America. They just have different effects.

But is it a good one? No.

 

No, you want to think it's belief because I can't be more specific. That's fine.

Strawman argument. We look at it as belief because you can't produce evidence otherwise. Just like you would take it as belief if I said there's no info coming out of Gitmo, but that I couldn't prove and had no way to know.

 

Gosh, we're not being transparent about information that is classified as SCI and compromising national security for your warm fuzzies. How will I ever live with myself?

You know what compromises national security? Your blind trust of your leaders. Your support of something as barbaric as torture.

 

Sure, think what you want. Believe what you want from your biased sources.

Nice try.

 

Meh I'm not allowed by contract to divulge any information outside of official statements.

Again, what do you work as? Can you prove you have this employment? Can you prove you have security clearance?

 

Since the official statements have been made by the administration, I can only reference you to their statements.

Listen closely now. Of course the people who created and support the torture at Gitmo will say it works fine. This goes without saying. Any politician who supports something will advocate it. Especially when he or she is a known liar. Do you take Communists on their word when they say Communism is the best thing since sliced bread? Do you blindly accept statements from Chinese mining corporations that their mines are safe? Do you take Putin at his word when he says Russian elections are not rigged? Let's shut down the Red Cross, Amnesty, and the UN election inspectors worldwide, then, and just ask the politicians how they're behaving. Would save a lot of people a lot of money, that's for sure:).

 

Whatever. Fine, but at least I have the administration backing up my claim

Like they backed up their claims on WMDs in Iraq (I assume you've never read the Downing Street Memo)? Got'cha.

 

[...] and they are the ones who have been able to make the official statements.

Sadly.

Your side has....

I, for one, have the statements made by the Red Cross inspectors visiting the facility. I have statements from former Gitmo guards and detainees, such as those depicted in The Road to Guantanamo. I have Amnesty reports. I have studies and reports on the inefficiency of torture, and its psychological effect on the torturer - I can refer you to the Stanford Prison Experiment as but one example.

 

These sources tell me torture is going on at Gitmo, and that torture does not work.

[Achilles]

These sources tell me torture is going on at Gitmo, and that torture does not work.

If not at Gitmo then at one of the many black sites (aka secret prisons) operated by the CIA around the world.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Forgot about those. Sorry.

[Tommycat]

Hmmm DE, I don't believe I have ever said that I support torture(please point out the post where I said I support torture). In fact quite the opposite. It is a poor method of retrieving useful information. I was merely pointing out that there is a difference between the crimes you specified as opposed to organized terror groups.

 

~snip~

[Jae Onasi]

I've received reports about this thread, and it's closed until one of us moderators has time to evaluate this more completely.

[Rogue Nine]

Guys, let's keep the discussion to the topic at hand, please. No more discussion on people's personal lives or what not. If you really want to bother each other with such trifles, then please keep it to PM.

 

I'm reopening, but any off-topic nonsense will be summarily deleted.

[Aeroldoth]

They want to kill us because the just hate us, and want the world to be Muslim.

Can you elaborate on this? You made this comment in passing so I'd like to understand if this was just an off-the-cuff remark or something that has deeper roots in your belief system.

 

What do you believe motivates these terrorists (or any terrorists for that matter)? Do you believe they hate us for no reason? Do they hate us for our freedoms?

[Rev7]

Can you elaborate on this? You made this comment in passing so I'd like to understand if this was just an off-the-cuff remark or something that has deeper roots in your belief system.

 

What do you believe motivates these terrorists (or any terrorists for that matter)? Do you believe they hate us for no reason? Do they hate us for our freedoms?

I am very sorry that I didn't elaborate, and I will do my best in the future to do so.

 

Okay, I was talking about extreme islamists. They have declared war on America. They want the world to be Muslim. I repeat, The Extreme Islamists. I don't know why these terrorists, the ones that I an refering to, hate us. It could be because we are not a Muslim country, we are too opened. It could literally be anything. It could be because of our freedoms, and them not accepting that. As I said before, I am extremely sorry for not elaborating. Thanks.

 

-Rev

[Aeroldoth]

Good Gravy! Why are you apologising? I wasn't attacking or criticising you, just curious as to what you believed. You have no need to apologise.

 

I read DE's response to you on the subject, and while I agree with his anger towards this administration's handling and portrayal of things, I wasn't so clear on what your position was. I simply wondered to what extent you accepted what the admin was saying about them.

[Rev7]

I was mainly apologising because I think that people, who happen to be Muslim, could have taken it the wrong way. I personally don't know who is Muslim and who is not, but I would rather be safe than sorry. I know that you weren't 'attacking me' or anything, I should really be more careful with what I say.

[mur'phon]

I don't know why these terrorists, the ones that I an refering to, hate us. It could be because we are not a Muslim country, we are too opened. It could literally be anything. It could be because of our freedoms, and them not accepting that.

 

Personally I believe it has more to do with military bases, U.S "bullying", military strikes etc, than any freedoms, otherwise they would replace the "great satan" with an axis of evil of their own.

[Achilles]

Personally I believe it has more to do with military bases' date=' U.S "bullying", military strikes etc, than any freedoms, otherwise they would replace the "great satan" with an axis of evil of their own.[/quote']Indeed. If the cause of aggression against the U.S. was jealousy over our "freedom" as we've been asked to believe, we'd see attacks in Canada, France, Germany, etc. All Western democracies would be potential targets. Instead what we see are acts of terrorism against countries that have participated in meddling in Middle Eastern affairs. If they say they hate us because we've put permanent military bases on their holy land, interfered with their governments, and killed their innocents, AND ALL THOSE THINGS ARE TRUE, then I don't understand why it is that we shouldn't believe them. It certainly makes more sense than trying to swallow the fabricated reason that doesn't make any sense at all.

[Darth Manus]

This so-called war on terror has blurred the lines between good and evil and exposed some people for who they really are. Right now we have terrorism carried out by fanatics and state terrorism. People who would seem normal and even likable outside the military turn out to be subjecting other human beings to untold tortures. In seeking to combat their enemies, the participants in this so-called war on terror are becoming like the terrorists themselves.

And while corporate greed keeps the gears of the war machine turning, with the support of fanatics who would gladly burn every Muslim at the stake, America alienates friends and allies, hate spreads across the world, young people on both sides are taught to hate and kill, spurred by injustices and lured by promises of glory or revenge... and humanity shows a face that has always been there but wasn't so widely exposed since World War II or Vietnam.

As for torture, it is ridiculous to think it can ever be a viable information gathering tool, barbaric that some would even consider or advocate it and blatant that like so many things it becomes an end in itself. Torture for its own sake, for the torturer's amusement. The labels are irrelevant. Enemy combatants, infidels, terrorists, imperialists, those are just words that some use to dehumanize others and make it seem like it's all right to do with them as you please, since we're us and they're them.

 

Note that I am not taking sides. In my eyes and heart, they are both guilty and damned. I just feel sorry for the innocent people who get caught in the middle.