Who was the most powerful sith lord ever?

[Klw]

If we are going to the full extent of the expanded universe, Galen Marek defeated both Vader (in both games) and Palpatine (in the first).

 

Actually Palpy played Starkiller for a fool and popped back up as soon as he turned his back. Then he killed him. That's not what I like to call getting defeated, although he did fail in his objective to turn Marek.

 

To say Palpatine did not learn lightsaber skills from plagueis is absurd.

 

Yes but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have surpassed Plagueis in ability later on or that he couldn't have taught himself more skills.

 

Darth Bane's apprentice Zannah and her new apprentice Cognus, used Bane's Sith Order to destroy the Jedi Order, using only Sith, not a civilian/conscript army. i therefore put darth bane's legacy ahead of palpatine in the accomplishments category.

 

Order 66 was the crowning achievement of all Sith history. Sidious destroyed the Jedi Order with mere words. He didn't even have to lift his lightsaber. That's why the Great Jedi Purge is better than the First Jedi Purge. It's the difference between slowly breaking down an enemy army until it's gone and wiping out all of its leaders in one night. Not to mention that Sidious did this all by himself - creating the army, infiltrating the government, moving the pieces into checkmate all while in disguise. The first Jedi purge was orchestrated by three Sith Lords using an army left over from another Sith lord.

[TKA-001]

The idea of palpatine cloning the body, and when one dies, he moves his "soul" into another body is rediculous, i completely agree with Klw and i laugh at the person who brings it up as fact. I also laugh at the person who tells me Luke was seduced by the darkside, by palpatine, after the movie saga was finished.

I don't like Dark Empire either (and I don't like being laughed at for something not my fault), but we have to take it into account as canon unless the parameters of the discussion say otherwise. If everyone is entirely free to pick and choose what sources they will accept and ignore the rest, then the entire discussion is robbed of its last iota of usefulness. It is the same as if I were to dismiss your entire argument simply because I don't accept the Darth Bane Trilogy as canon. That is true "ridiculous".

 

If we are going to the full extent of the expanded universe, Galen Marek defeated both Vader (in both games) and Palpatine (in the first).

Vader, I can understand - if Luke, barely trained in RotJ and using the dark side can defeat Vader, then so could a Sith with as much power and as many years of training as Starkiller (and there is no reason to believe either victories were easy ones for him). Also, Palpatine threw the fight.

 

you cannot say that the apprentice (palpatine) didn't learn things from the master (plagueis). are Anakin's lightsaber skills comparable to Obi Wan's? Of course! Are Dooku's lightsaber dueling skills comparable to Yoda? Definately!!! To say Palpatine did not learn lightsaber skills from plagueis is absurd

Of course Palpatine learned from Plagueis, but again, that in no way decreases the likelihood of him surpassing his master. Besides, why are we talking only about skills with the lightsaber?

 

Darth Bane's apprentice Zannah and her new apprentice Cognus, used Bane's Sith Order to destroy the Jedi Order, using only Sith, not a civilian/conscript army. i therefore put darth bane's legacy ahead of palpatine in the accomplishments category.

Balderdash. Zannah and Cognus didn't do jack in destroying the Jedi Order, and Bane did nothing except establish the Rule of Two. Besides, if we're going to ramble about how a person's "legacy" counts as an achievement toward that person, then Palpatine is arguably the peak of Bane's legacy.

[VegetableMonster]

i think darth bane was the most powerful out of those. he may not have been teh best with his force skills but he was a genius

[Klw]

Besides, why are we talking only about skills with the lightsaber?

 

Because that is the particular "greatness factor" that we have been discussing lately.

[SmootheOperator]

I don't like Dark Empire either (and I don't like being laughed at for something not my fault), but we have to take it into account as canon unless the parameters of the discussion say otherwise. If everyone is entirely free to pick and choose what sources they will accept and ignore the rest, then the entire discussion is robbed of its last iota of usefulness. It is the same as if I were to dismiss your entire argument simply because I don't accept the Darth Bane Trilogy as canon. That is true "ridiculous".

 

 

I am not blaming anyone for the ridiculous pieces of the expanded universe. I see Palpatine as the best there is in a very short time span, between the birth of Anakin Skywalker and the death of Darth Vader. In a universe that spans the old republic and beyond the New Jedi order, you can't seriously be saying the a sith lord that only engaged in combat once, when he was revealed as the Sith Lord, failed at hunting down the jedi, and only had control over the galaxy for a measly 17 years, is the most powerful sith lord ever? Better sith lords have rule for longer and accomplished more.He may have been the best at the time, but in the entire history of the galaxy, i say nay.

 

 

 

Of course Palpatine learned from Plagueis, but again, that in no way decreases the likelihood of him surpassing his master. Besides, why are we talking only about skills with the lightsaber?

 

 

 

Also saying that Plagueis could not compete with Palpatine is asinine. Saying the apprentice can't be beaten by his former master is ridiculous.

 

Because i tried the force route, and excuses were made why it shouldn't be based on force power alone. If it were based on force power, Plagueis would be the victor, no contest. Lightsaber combat, palpatine may be on top, but how much of a Sith Lord's power comes from his lightsaber? How much of a Jedi's power comes from their lightsabers? not a whole lot. If all they did was swing their lightsaber around, then it might count for more, but it doesn't.

 

Many questions will be answered when the Plagueis book comes out, but a Sith Lord that has the power to manipulate the very essence of the force and mold it as he saw fit, the Sith Lord that created a "Chosen One" by using the force alone deserves more than a book. His exploits should be explored more in depth. Series maybe? But it is worth knowing

[Klw]

First of all, all your speculation about Plagueis is still completely unproven, including his creation of Anakin Skywalker (which is just a wild theory). I've even heard rumors that Sidious created Skywalker, so let's not base our discussion on hearsay.

 

It shouldn't be based on force power alone. Anakin Skywalker possessed way more force power than Darth Sidious or Darth Plagueis and that's a fact. He was a being of "pure force" but yet he chose to squander it all as a cyborg apprentice. Accomplishments are way more important than force power because force power means nothing if you don't do anything with it.

 

Other types of "power" include: Military, Financial, and most important of all: Political.

 

Eradicating the Jedi Order is the one and only goal of the Sith and Palpatine is the only Sith lord who has ever done it all by himself. Not only that but he did it basically by pressing a button. The genius it took to do that is the crowning achievement of all Sith history. He did something with mere words that it took other Sith lords huge wars and several years to accomplish. He wasn't a triumvirate or a brotherhood; he was just one man whose influence extended over the entire galaxy (not just his own little Sith Empire alongside the Republic) for many years (way more than just the Empire years). So no, no Sith lord has "accomplished more" according to me.

 

Of course I'm not very familiar with Star Wars canon to begin with, so answer me this: Is there another Sith lord who destroyed not only the Jedi Order but the Republic all by himself and all in the span of a couple of days at most?

 

Might I also remind you that Darth Sidious ruled the very first galaxy-wide empire? So even if he didn't rule it for very long, he was ruling the entire galaxy. Sure other Sith lords have ruled little kingdoms for longer, but none of them ruled the entire galaxy until Sidious. Even Darth Krayt only ruled the galaxy for 8 years and he inherited what he got from Sidious's original empire.

 

What's even more spectacular is that the Republic had lasted for over 25,000 years when Darth Sidious destroyed it.

 

If we accept the full EU (including his resurrection), his accomplishments, length of rule, and after-death legacy continue to pile up. Right now, do you know how many confirmed canon accomplishments Darth Plagueis has? As far as I know, 0.

[TKA-001]

you can't seriously be saying the a sith lord that only engaged in combat once, when he was revealed as the Sith Lord,

Seriously, you're trying to convince me that he never fought except once? First of all, he fought twice in the movies, and second of all, Palpatine alludes to plenty of other battles he's had with Jedi.

 

failed at hunting down the jedi,

Don't give me that. It's worth pointing out that not only did he come closer than any others, but no Sith Lord ever succeeded in completely hunting down the Jedi.

 

and only had control over the galaxy for a measly 17 years

It's still a better achievement than the 0 years for which every single Sith Lord before him ruled the galaxy.

 

Better sith lords have rule for longer and accomplished more.

Name them.

 

Also saying that Plagueis could not compete with Palpatine is asinine. Saying the apprentice can't be beaten by his former master is ridiculous.

That is not what I said. We have no canon evidence to suggest that Plagueis possessed combat skill superior to Palpatine in his prime, yet you insist that he did.

 

If it were based on force power, Plagueis would be the victor, no contest.

Again, based on what evidence? Palpatine killed three Jedi Master swordsmen in seconds, and controlled Force Storms capable of obliterating fleets, not to mention got a shot at immortality. What does Plagueis have to compete with that?

 

Many questions will be answered when the Plagueis book comes out, but a Sith Lord that has the power to manipulate the very essence of the force and mold it as he saw fit,

Allegedly. And how does that outweigh all of the knowledge Palpatine has?

 

the Sith Lord that created a "Chosen One" by using the force alone deserves more than a book.

Firstly, that's only fan speculation for the time being. Secondly, if it's true, then it evidently didn't do him much good since he lost track of his Chosen One and got killed in his sleep.

[SmootheOperator]

Firstly, that's only fan speculation for the time being. Secondly, if it's true, then it evidently didn't do him much good since he lost track of his Chosen One and got killed in his sleep.

 

By chosen one, i meant Anakin, i don't see Palpatine being created by Plagueis, Anakin had a midi-chlorian count higher than any that had ever been encountered. i don't see that as being natural, but artificially created. Too much evidence to point to that being the truth. Shmi Skywalker told Qui-Gon that there was no father. . .

[Alexrd]

Too much evidence to point to that being the truth.

 

Actually, there is none.

 

Shmi Skywalker told Qui-Gon that there was no father. . .

 

I see no correlation.

[Klw]

The theory that Plagueis used his power to cause the virgin birth of Anakin Skywalker is just that - a theory. In fact, all it is is just fan speculation. People heard that Plagueis could "create life" so they concocted this wild rumor.

 

First of all, only the force can create life, so technically all Plagueis would do is coax it to do so.

 

Even if Plagueis did do it, I don't see that as some sort of trump card that you can just play against everything Sidious did. Just like TKA said, Darth Sidious had the force powers necessary to kill three Jedi masters in seconds, control vast force storms, cloud the vision of the Jedi Council, and achieve immortality. If you couple that with his vast political prowess then Plagueis's supposed ability to impregnate random slave women with his mind is still not enough for me to change my mind and declare him the greatest Sith lord ever.

 

Plagueis would need way more than just that one accomplishment in order for him to be in the running, and right now, he doesn't even have that. Heck, even his ability to save others from death is still debatable.

 

Also, say he did cause Anakin Skywalker to come into being. Shouldn't Anakin Skywalker, not Darth Plagueis, get the credit for bringing the force into balance?

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the prophecy of the Chosen One predate the life of Darth Plagueis? That means that even if Plagueis caused the birth of Skywalker, he was just chosen by the force to carry out that task, etc.

 

Personally, I don't see why the force couldn't have just done it by itself.

 

If they actually do come out and say that Plagueis randomly impregnated Shmi Skywalker, I will . . . well . . . nothing. I lost my respect for the EU a long time ago.

[SITH LORD 872]

Darth Sidious!!

[TKA-001]

By chosen one, i meant Anakin,

Yeah, I know. What I meant with the first part was that the claim of Anakin being created by Plagueis begs the question of how the Dark Lord managed to not keep the boy in his possession.

[SmootheOperator]

 

Also, say he did cause Anakin Skywalker to come into being. Shouldn't Anakin Skywalker, not Darth Plagueis, get the credit for bringing the force into balance?

 

 

The force may have been in balance, but only for a very short time. George Lucas himself said that balance within the force is not an equal power between Jedi and Sith, it is peace without Sith, existence without destruction. No one should get credit for bringing balance to the force, because it never happened. Balance in the force means the destruction of the Sith. as long as there is orphaned force-users in the galaxy, there will be angry force users, and they will turn to the dark side, creating a new sith order. There will never be balance, only cycles of a peaceful republic controlling the galaxy, only to be destroyed by a sith empire, and then the jedi will rise up, destroy what they know of the sith, and the jedi will begin the republic all over again.

 

 

Actually, there is none.

 

 

seriously? an obscenely powerful force user is born in the outer rim, away from any influences of the jedi or the sith. To a mother who never conceived? Of course it is speculation, because Lucas has never said for sure who Plagueis created, personally i believe it was Anakin. There is no evidence to point towards plagueis creating palpatine either, palpatine was plagueis' apprentice, thats it. No other evidence. Believe whatever you want, i really don't care, but i immediately drew the line from plagueis being powerful enough to create life, to a fatherless force user that had the highest midi-chlorian count ever encountered.

 

Yeah, I know. What I meant with the first part was that the claim of Anakin being created by Plagueis begs the question of how the Dark Lord managed to not keep the boy in his possession.

 

Who is to say Anakin was created to be Plagueis' apprentice? Maybe he was an experiment. Plagueis had the potential to be immortal himself, if palpatine could do it, it is likely that plagueis could do it too. Maybe the plan was just to watch from the sidelines, to see what a powerful force user could do without any influence from either side. Or maybe anakin was just a freak of nature. until George Lucas decides to throw the fanboys a bit more controversy, it is all theory and speculation.

 

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the prophecy of the Chosen One predate the life of Darth Plagueis? That means that even if Plagueis caused the birth of Skywalker, he was just chosen by the force to carry out that task, etc.

 

 

i don't really understand where you are going with this one. are you saying it is dumb that plagueis was destined to create anakin? just curious.

[Alexrd]

seriously?

 

Seriously.

 

an obscenely powerful force user is born in the outer rim, away from any influences of the jedi or the sith. To a mother who never conceived?

 

What's wrong? Why can't he just be the Chosen One, created by the will of the Force, as the saga points out?

 

Of course it is speculation, because Lucas has never said for sure who Plagueis created,

 

Indeed, it's all speculation.

 

personally i believe it was Anakin.

 

Fine, but that doesn't make it a fact.

 

There is no evidence to point towards plagueis creating palpatine either,

 

What? Who said there was? And why did you came up with that?

 

Believe whatever you want, i really don't care, but i immediately drew the line from plagueis being powerful enough to create life, to a fatherless force user that had the highest midi-chlorian count ever encountered.

 

Again, just because you believe in that, it doesn't make it a fact.

[TKA-001]

Plagueis had the potential to be immortal himself, if palpatine could do it, it is likely that plagueis could do it too.

Less wishful thinking, more evidence, please.

 

Maybe the plan was just to watch from the sidelines, to see what a powerful force user could do without any influence from either side.

Evidence, please? If that was the plan, they sure did a piss-poor job of it seeing as Palpatine didn't know anything about Anakin until TPM. Besides, what would the point of such an "experiment" be? If there's a Force-sensitive guy living a normal life, then (unless someone who is trained finds them) 99% odds say he lives and dies without ever knowing why he was luckier than most. Who gives a ****?

[Klw]

Lucas has never said for sure who Plagueis created, personally i believe it was Anakin.

 

But he said that Plagueis did create someone?

 

i don't really understand where you are going with this one. are you saying it is dumb that plagueis was destined to create anakin? just curious.

 

There's a big difference between a prophet and a messiah. If all he did was prepare the way for someone greater than him, then his supposed "power" means that much less.

 

If he was selected by the Force to create Anakin, that also means that he really didn't choose to do it himself, even if he thinks he did. You can only be called powerful if you have the freedom to wield your abilities, and if Plagueis was just a conduit for the force instead of being able to control the force with his own free will, he really isn't that powerful.

 

But of course I still think that all of this compares poorly with the political accomplishments of Palpatine. This isn't just a discussion about force power, and even if it were I would probably still stick with revealed canon over speculation.

[SmootheOperator]

Seriously.

 

What's wrong? Why can't he just be the Chosen One, created by the will of the Force, as the saga points out?

 

 

Because the prophecy of the chosen one says that the would be balance in the force, there was never balance in the force. so the prophecy of the chosen one has as much validity as the idea that the world was supposed to come to an end last month. Just because it was called a prophecy, doesn't mean it was going to happen. George Lucas says Anakin was the chosen one, because he made it and he can say that. But IN MY OPINION there never was balance within the force. The dark side will always seduce a weak force user, and through emotions, make them powerful, if undisciplined. As long as the dark side exists, there cannot be balance, and the dark side will exist as long as sentient being exist.

 

 

Again, just because you believe in that, it doesn't make it a fact.

 

 

No it doesn't. I never claimed that it was. It is my opinion, and until LucasArts approves a canon book or comic that states that it is fact, it will always be an opinion/belief/idea.

 

 

Evidence, please? If that was the plan, they sure did a piss-poor job of it seeing as Palpatine didn't know anything about Anakin until TPM. Besides, what would the point of such an "experiment" be? If there's a Force-sensitive guy living a normal life, then (unless someone who is trained finds them) 99% odds say he lives and dies without ever knowing why he was luckier than most. Who gives a ****?

 

There is no evidence. It is an idea. There doesn't always have to be a master plan in everything. The possibility that Anakin was an experiment was just a hokum idea that i threw out there. It is not canon, and not sanctioned by anyone. It was a simple idea that Plagueis created Anakin, just to play around. It is neither here, nor there, and has no bearing in the Star Wars universe what-so-ever.

 

 

Less wishful thinking, more evidence, please.

 

 

The more preposterous aspects of the expanded universe say that Palpatine had clones of his body, since he could not make his body immortal, he would move his essence from one dying body, through the force, and put it in one of his "blank" bodies, and therefore stay alive. There is no evidence to say that plagueis could not do this as well. No evidence to prove that he could, but again, IN MY OPINION, it is a possiblilty

 

 

But he said that Plagueis did create someone?

 

 

No one did, he had the potential to do so, Palpatine said that plagueis could manipulate the midi-chlorians themselves. Thats it. there is no evidence to say that he created anyone, but he could have. Again,it is just an opinion, and something that is fun to think about. NOT FACT

 

 

There's a big difference between a prophet and a messiah. If all he did was prepare the way for someone greater than him, then his supposed "power" means that much less.

 

If he was selected by the Force to create Anakin, that also means that he really didn't choose to do it himself, even if he thinks he did. You can only be called powerful if you have the freedom to wield your abilities, and if Plagueis was just a conduit for the force instead of being able to control the force with his own free will, he really isn't that powerful.

 

 

So Qui-Gon believed that it was the will of the force for them to find Anakin, because it was the will of the force make it any less significant? Just because Darth Plagueis was destined to do so, that doesn't make his "possible" accomplishment any less significant. Fate/destiny doesn't mean you were told to do something and you did it, it means that a course of events was set up beyond your knowledge of the universe.

[Klw]

What I mean is that Darth Plagueis didn't act on the Force; the Force acted on him. It's kind of a tricky concept and I do agree with you - just because you were fated to do something doesn't mean that you don't deserve credit for doing it.

 

I suppose a related point to make is that Sidious used his own genius to destroy the Republic while Plagueis needed his force powers to do whatever you think he might have done. In that way, his accomplishment being the will of the Force and not only his own will does somewhat make it less impressive. For example, if a Sith warrior kills a Jedi using a combination of force powers and a bounty hunter kills a Jedi of equal ability without using any force powers, whose accomplishment is more praiseworthy? On a simpler level: Someone defeating you with a trick is more impressive than someone defeating you using some sort of tool (in our case, this tool being force-sensitivity).

 

Another point I could make is that because the Sith evidently lost track of Anakin Skywalker even if they did create him, the whole thing may well have been an accident. If your greatest accomplishment was an accident, how is it so great?

 

I'm glad you now seem to agree that accomplishments mean more than ability. If it were only based on ability I would nominate Darth Vader for this honor.

 

P.S. I think the idea of "balancing the force" can still be true if you just define it as "destroying the Sith." Anakin Skywalker did do that. There were temporarily no Sith masters or apprentices left after Palpatine died and Vader converted as far as I know.

[SmootheOperator]

 

I suppose a related point to make is that Sidious used his own genius to destroy the Republic while Plagueis needed his force powers to do whatever you think he might have done. In that way, his accomplishment being the will of the Force and not only his own will does somewhat make it less impressive. For example, if a Sith warrior kills a Jedi using a combination of force powers and a bounty hunter kills a Jedi of equal ability without using any force powers, whose accomplishment is more praiseworthy? On a simpler level: Someone defeating you with a trick is more impressive than someone defeating you using some sort of tool (in our case, this tool being force-sensitivity).

 

 

It also counts on how it was done, if a Sith warrior kills a Jedi in a lightsaber battle, but the bounty hunter kills a Jedi while he is on the toilet from a distance with a planted bomb, i count the more difficult kill as the more impressive, and give the point to the Sith for standing his ground like a man, and not taking a "cowards" way.

 

Another point I could make is that because the Sith evidently lost track of Anakin Skywalker even if they did create him, the whole thing may well have been an accident. If your greatest accomplishment was an accident, how is it so great?

 

Just because it wasn't the intended outcome, doesn't mean that it wasn't an extraordinary accomplishment. The invention of gun powder was an accident, and it cannot be said that because it was an accident, it is less momentous in history. And yes, i did compare the invention of gun powder to the creation of the most powerful force user on record.

 

 

I'm glad you now seem to agree that accomplishments mean more than ability. If it were only based on ability I would nominate Darth Vader for this honor.

 

 

I do agree that accomplishments are important, but i see Palpatine's accomplishments were more political than anything. He used his "mind trick" to have critical decisions made and used the system itself to ascend to power. Darth Krayt didn't use "as much" politics to come to power in the empire. He walked into the meeting chambers of the head of the government, and killed the emperor without a second thought. (it was later found out that the man he killed was a decoy, not the real emperor, but that's beside the point) Darth Krayt's empire was not as stable, and not as long as Palpatine's (i know i was wrong about the 17 years bit), but the fact that he took it by force, instead of by politics counts higher in my mind. But again, not saying Palpatine did not have an amazing accomplishment by taking the republic from the inside, i keep getting in trouble because i don't like the politics of business so i avoid them as much as i can, politics is a fickle bitch.

 

If i was going for potential skills and power, i would definitely go with Darth Vader, he was the most powerful sith ever recorded, was never trained to his full potential, never lived long enough to take control and be an Emperor, he just didn't have the tools to live up to what he could have been.

 

And if i were going for skills and power that were there, but never truly used to their full potential, i would say Darth Plagueis. He had the power to do as he please, he was a Muun, and as a species, are some of the most intelligent and controlled species in the galaxy, the potential is there for him to do a lot, he just wasted his talents. He possibly created the most powerful force user on record, but he didn't rule the galaxy, he had no army, and had his name on nothing but a legend, but as a Sith, there was no one who could control the power of the dark side like he could, he had the skills and intelligence to do a lot, but just never did it.

 

 

P.S. I think the idea of "balancing the force" can still be true if you just define it as "destroying the Sith." Anakin Skywalker did do that. There were temporarily no Sith masters or apprentices left after Palpatine died and Vader converted as far as I know.

 

 

Palpatine never completely died, his "essence", or soul, not sure exactly what to call it, survived and manifested itself in clone bodies, Vader did die, but Palpatine kept the sith going for a very long time. Seperate from that, Darth Krayt (not by name, but still was fading to the dark side) existed before the rebels began fighting the empire. Before ROTJ, the man that was to be Darth Krayt was exiled from tattooine, and while chasing a bounty, ended up on Korriban. Where he found a Sith holocron, and was moved fully to the dark side. It wasn't until a short time later that he called himself Krayt, and began his "One Sith" empire.

 

The sith were never truly destroyed, only disrupted for a short time, but they have always existed

 

SIDE NOTE: not worthy of its own thread, but just a question. Who has the entire Star Wars Saga on Blu-Ray pre-ordered?

[Klw]

Well I still can't regard an accidental achievement as evidence of being powerful, but that's not really something that we can argue about.

 

Also, I count gaining power by politics as a significantly greater achievement than taking power by force, because it takes true genius to be a politician and eliminate an entire government bloodlessly. To win power by force it takes merely the courage to pull a trigger. As far as I'm concerned, the pen is mightier than the sword and no one could wield either one of them like Darth Sidious.

 

As far as Krayt vs. Sidious: The Republic itself was far more stable when Sidious destroyed it. In fact, it had been operating continuously for 25,000 years. Not even Revan could destroy it. Besides, not only did Krayt basically inherit everything from Palpatine, but he never really established true peaceful rule over the galaxy and, as you mentioned, ruled for less than half the number of years. But I don't think you were ever really arguing for Krayt anyway.

 

Yeah we keep getting hung up on EU stuff. Like I said before, I'd really like to believe in the Chosen One. For now, I guess we can agree on the fact that even if Anakin Skywalker didn't destroy the Dark Side, he still had more potential than any individual ever had and ever will have.

[SmootheOperator]

 

But I don't think you were ever really arguing for Krayt anyway.

 

Yeah we keep getting hung up on EU stuff. Like I said before, I'd really like to believe in the Chosen One. For now, I guess we can agree on the fact that even if Anakin Skywalker didn't destroy the Dark Side, he still had more potential than any individual ever had and ever will have.

 

 

Agreed and agreed, moving Krayt up in the polls was never the goal, i'm just not enough of a fan of palpatine to put myself behind him. The idea of the chosen one is a nice idea, but in my opinion, a false one.

[z3ro6]

You are all wrong. It is Darth Bane who IS the most powerful Sith lord to ever live. He is the one who reverted back to the old Sith teachings which was the rule of two which Palpatine still followed!

 

But Palpatine is a cowardly Sith lord. He knew Vader had much potential and was very powerful and hungry, but Palpatine was so much more wise then Anakin at the time, he knew Anakin would not win against Obi-Wan. So after losing to Obi-Wan in that epic fight, he saved Anakin to have power at his side. The suit that he put on Vader was meant to keep him at a disadvantage so Palpatine would never have to worry about losing his power from Vader.

 

Darth Bane actually wanted his Sith apprentice to become more powerful and learn more so the Sith would stay strong and he knew the fastest way to do this was the rule of two. This is where Palpatine let the power consume him, and he lost control of the darkside and was not able to harness it, it made him stupid.

 

In my mind, Palpatine crippled the power of the Sith. Bane was able to control the power of the dark side better than any other Sith lord, which by definition would make him the most powerful Sith lord. He was so powerful, he was able to withstand the thought bomb.

 

He learned to use the orbalisks to make him even stronger with the darkside of the force, but they were halving his life because of all the darkside energy that was pulsing through him so he had to get rid of them. Not to mention all the teachings he learned through his journeys from some of the most powerful Sith lords to ever live (forget who, I know Andeddu is one and others along with old scriptures and all the books he read).

 

Darth Bane had lost to his apprentice, but only to continue on living through her when he performed the ritual that gave him the ability to live on in another being. (I forget what it's called) Palpatine has crippled the power of the Sith and they would be a lot stronger if he would have done right by Vader and taught him like he was supposed to instead of holding many secrets from him. Vader never even came close to his potential and Vader would have ended up being the most powerful, but with a poor teacher and nobody to help you reach that potential, how can you?

 

Which brings me back to Bane. He pretty much lost his self within the darkside of the force and became a part of it. He committed the rest of his life to learning the teachings of the Sith and has acquired more knowledge than any other Sith lord who has ever lived.

[TKA-001]

There is no evidence. It is an idea. There doesn't always have to be a master plan in everything. The possibility that Anakin was an experiment was just a hokum idea that i threw out there. It is not canon, and not sanctioned by anyone. It was a simple idea that Plagueis created Anakin, just to play around. It is neither here, nor there, and has no bearing in the Star Wars universe what-so-ever.

Then why did you even bring it up? I'm not interested in possibilities, I'm interested in established facts.

 

The more preposterous aspects of the expanded universe say that Palpatine had clones of his body, since he could not make his body immortal, he would move his essence from one dying body, through the force, and put it in one of his "blank" bodies, and therefore stay alive. There is no evidence to say that plagueis could not do this as well. No evidence to prove that he could, but again, IN MY OPINION, it is a possiblilty

See above. There many possibles that we can bring up when talking about Plagueis (and indeed about any character which we know very little about), but they are neither here nor there. "Possible" in this thread seems to be used as a synonym for "Something I make up to support my position".

 

He used his "mind trick" to have critical decisions made and used the system itself to ascend to power.

If I read this right, you're claiming that the majority of Palpatine's manipulations were accomplished purely with his mind-affecting powers. Err, source, please?

 

(it was later found out that the man [Krayt] killed was a decoy, not the real emperor, but that's beside the point)

Actually, that doesn't sound beside the point at all.

 

And why is running in and killing Emperor Fel so much more impressive anyway? Just the fact that you hate politics? Palpatine spent decades establishing a power base in the Republic as well as various underworld networks with such thoroughness that by the time he became the Galactic Emperor, it was completely legitimate as far as almost anyone in the galaxy knew. That speaks volumes about his intellect and ability to plan.

 

The suit that he put on Vader was meant to keep him at a disadvantage so Palpatine would never have to worry about losing his power from Vader.

Debatable, not to mention discredited. Palpatine muses in the novel Dark Lord that Vader's weakness was really much more due to psychological consequences of his defeat by Kenobi than anything to do with the suit.

 

Bane was able to control the power of the dark side better than any other Sith lord, which by definition would make him the most powerful Sith lord. He was so powerful, he was able to withstand the thought bomb.

Sentence #1 needs some specific examples. Sentence #2 is an absolute lie; Bane only "survived" the thought bomb by virtue of not being within its blast range.

 

Darth Bane had lost to his apprentice, but only to continue on living through her when he performed the ritual that gave him the ability to live on in another being. (I forget what it's called)

Do you refer to his attempt to transfer his essence into Zannah at the end of Dynasty of Evil? It's actually canon that his attempt failed and his spirit was banished.

 

[bane] acquired more knowledge than any other Sith lord who has ever lived.

What evidence do you base this off of? We know of only a handful of Sith artifacts that he found and studied. Palpatine spent decades studying various smaller Force cults and sects as well as the Sith and Jedi.

[Klw]

The idea that Palpatine is illegitimate because he somehow failed to follow the Rule of Two is ridiculous.

 

If Palpatine wanted a weak apprentice who would never be able to replace him, why did he replace Dooku with Vader? Why did he try to replace Vader with Galen Marek and Luke Skywalker? The simple reason: He actually did want a powerful successor. He was very much aware of Darth Vader's potential and based on what he said to Yoda, fully expected Vader to win. Didn't he tell Yoda, "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us?"

 

After Vader's defeat, Palpatine spent virtually all of his spare time trying to find someone better and eventually decided on Luke Skywalker.

 

Last time I checked, Darth Bane never destroyed the Republic or ruled the galaxy all by himself.

 

Also, the one and only goal of the Sith is to destroy the Jedi order and establish Sith rule over the galaxy, not to secure a good apprentice. Finding yourself a good understudy is just a succession device used to ensure a smooth transition of power from one Sith lord to the next. If anything, the Rule of Two is just one part of the master plan of the Sith to take over the galaxy.

 

The only Sith lord who has ever truly fulfilled the ultimate goal of the Sith is Darth Sidious, who ruled the entire galaxy for two decades. No Sith lord has ever wielded as much power.

[SmootheOperator]

Then why did you even bring it up? I'm not interested in possibilities, I'm interested in established facts.

 

 

See above. There many possibles that we can bring up when talking about Plagueis (and indeed about any character which we know very little about), but they are neither here nor there. "Possible" in this thread seems to be used as a synonym for "Something I make up to support my position".

 

 

If I read this right, you're claiming that the majority of Palpatine's manipulations were accomplished purely with his mind-affecting powers. Err, source, please?

 

 

Actually, that doesn't sound beside the point at all.

 

And why is running in and killing Emperor Fel so much more impressive anyway? Just the fact that you hate politics? Palpatine spent decades establishing a power base in the Republic as well as various underworld networks with such thoroughness that by the time he became the Galactic Emperor, it was completely legitimate as far as almost anyone in the galaxy knew. That speaks volumes about his intellect and ability to plan.

 

 

 

Seriously buddy, if you want facts, you are in the wrong place. Everything that has happened in the star wars universe is wide open to opinion and fantasy.

 

Do you really think that a Sith lord that is also a politician would never use the mind trick to ensure that every decision that leads him to his goal is made? If you have been planning this whole scheme for a very long time, and you have everything laid out in front of you, are you really going to leave things to another beings free will? No, you are going to do everything in your power to make it happen, and if "everything in your power" involves the ability to change someones mind, and use it, like the mind trick allows him to do, you can see why he would. There is no written proof of this, but there would be thousands of encyclopedia sized books that would need to exist if every thought and every action of everyone in the star wars universe was to be recorded.